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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Supreme Court & the case of the SSM wedding cake
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Tomorrow (Tues.), oral arguments start in this case.
" Here’s What’s At Stake In The Supreme Court’s Gay Wedding Cake Case The baker says it’s about free speech, but the same-sex couple says it’s purely discrimination." (HuffPost)
I think this is one of the cases we've discussed. (And the article mentions another relevant case.)
If you can, check out some of the coverage of these new Supreme Court arguments, and let us know what you think.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
I'm skeptical of the appeal to "artistic expression". It seems like a post facto rationalization for prejudice. Typically a baker provides a cake designated by the customer, not the a cake he thinks best artistically suits his æsthetic interpretation of the customer.
Baker: Here's a delicious chocolate hazelnut tort.
Customer: But I ordered a lemon chiffon cake!
Baker: Yes, but clearly the tort goes better with your overall æsthetic. Trust me, I'm a professional!
Customer: But I'm allergic to nuts! And chocolate makes my girlfriend nauseous.
Baker: Hey, sometimes you have to suffer for the demands of true art.
I'm not sure we'd ever expect to see a scene like the one above play out in real life.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I was very proud to have our Cathedral Dean, Troy Mendez, being one of the co-authors and signers of this editorial in this morning's Arizona Republic.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
[ 05. December 2017, 15:21: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Religious freedom is about the freedom to worship, and to live one's life in accordance to one's values, provided it does not impinge or harm another person.
Businesses that are available to the public, do not have religious freedom. When you establish a business that is public, you don't determine which members of the public to serve and not serve. You are also expected to serve everyone who walks through your door with equal generosity and care.
The baker is in the wrong. If he doesn't want to serve the public, then he shouldn't advertise to the public, nor should he be afforded the same privileges that the government would grant to businesses with the stipulation that they serve the public.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
It's no different to a wedding photographer saying "oh, you're black. I can hire you a Polaroid camera for the day"
I'm pretty sure that's literally what will happen if this case succeeds.
Posts: 29 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John3000:
It's no different to a wedding photographer saying "oh, you're black. I can hire you a Polaroid camera for the day"
I'm pretty sure that's literally what will happen if this case succeeds.
I'm sure some evangelical Christians will get a rude shock when atheist Coffee Baristas refuse to serve them when they come in wearing "Jesus is Great" shirts.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by John3000:
It's no different to a wedding photographer saying "oh, you're black. I can hire you a Polaroid camera for the day"
I'm pretty sure that's literally what will happen if this case succeeds.
I'm sure some evangelical Christians will get a rude shock when atheist Coffee Baristas refuse to serve them when they come in wearing "Jesus is Great" shirts.
Well, the interesting thing about the proposed standard is that it depends entirely on the perception of the discriminating party. It's just as likely that an atheist Coffee Barista decides to get creative and tells the folks in the "Jesus is Great" shirts that he won't serve them because they're gay. There's no way to prove they aren't, and the ACB isn't under any obligation to take their word for it.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
If we set aside the LGBT issue, how would this scenario work out:
Suppose an atheist walked into a baker shop and asked the baker to bake a cake with the words "Jesus is not the Son of God" and the baker is a Christian. Would the law be on the baker's side for refusing to bake the cake?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If we set aside the LGBT issue, how would this scenario work out:
Suppose an atheist walked into a baker shop and asked the baker to bake a cake with the words "Jesus is not the Son of God" and the baker is a Christian. Would the law be on the baker's side for refusing to bake the cake?
One of the key facts of Masterpiece Cake case is that explicit text was not involved at all.
quote:
Charlie Craig and David Mullins visited the Masterpiece bakery and looked through a photo album of custom-designed cakes. When the owner, Jack Phillips, greeted them, they told him (according to his own testimony) that they “wanted a wedding cake for ‘our wedding.’” Phillips told them that he did not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings. They left immediately without discussing any details of their proposed wedding cake.
It seems like the "photo album of custom-designed cakes" exists so would-be customers can say "make me one like this", so it's pretty clearly case of a merchant refusing to sell someone the same product he sells to other people, in this case because of the would-be clients' sexual orientation. Arguments about artistic expression are just a post facto search for a more legally palatable justification.
[ 05. December 2017, 20:59: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm not sure we'd ever expect to see a scene like the one above play out in real life.
I think your argument is rather weak. There are a large number of cases where some creative artist is offered work within certain parameters. If he comes back with something completely different, he's not going to find a happy customer.
"Please paint me a picture of this coastline for my living room" is a reasonable request, and I don't think you'd deny that the resulting painting was the creative work of the artist.
If the artist came back with a picture of a mountain or a trio of nude dancing girls, because he doesn't like the sea, you wouldn't be happy.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm not sure we'd ever expect to see a scene like the one above play out in real life.
I think your argument is rather weak. There are a large number of cases where some creative artist is offered work within certain parameters. If he comes back with something completely different, he's not going to find a happy customer.
"Please paint me a picture of this coastline for my living room" is a reasonable request, and I don't think you'd deny that the resulting painting was the creative work of the artist.
If the artist came back with a picture of a mountain or a trio of nude dancing girls, because he doesn't like the sea, you wouldn't be happy.
And yet we typically don't see that kind of thing associated with most foodstuffs. Most bakeries, restaurants, and other similar establishments typically treat it as a problem or mistake when they bring you something other than what you've ordered, rather than a high-minded exercise of artistic virtue, free speech, or religious values.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If we set aside the LGBT issue, how would this scenario work out:
Suppose an atheist walked into a baker shop and asked the baker to bake a cake with the words "Jesus is not the Son of God" and the baker is a Christian. Would the law be on the baker's side for refusing to bake the cake?
I hope not. As a Christian. If Christians can't be in business and serve the general public, they should get out of business and do something else. Mow lawns or something.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I noticed the baker is at least consistent, and not just refusing to do SSM cakes. He also refuses bachelor/ette party cakes, and Halloween items. (Some Christians have major problems with Halloween.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Permit me to use a trivial example:
Last January, I decided to celebrate Blue Monday, (the worst day of the year), by going to my local store and having the baker inscribed "Happy Blue Monday" on a cake.
She looked at me for a moment, like I was crazy, but she went ahead and did it anyway, and I bought it, and all was well.
No one observing this situation, would have said that the baker "endorsed" Blue Monday. She simply did what her customer asked her to. In short, she did her job.
I don't see why the baker in the wedding case, couldn't have just seen it as just a job he did. He in no way, "endorsed" gay marriage, than the baker in my case, 'endorsed' Blue Monday.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
But Blue Monday is not mentioned in the bible. (Neither is Breakfast of Champions°° which helpfully contains a helpful picture of an asshole).
[tangent]
Come to think of it there are quite a few assholes in the bible. Judas comes to mind, but maybe he's a pawn in a glorious grand plot. David was sometimes an asshole, considering Bathsheba. Joshua had his moments. God wasn't particularly decent when he killed children in Egypt in the Moses story.
So maybe cake people are just following a particular set of bad biblical examples with a long assholy pedigree.
[/tangent]
°°Full title: "Breakfast of Champions, or Goodbye Blue Monday" (worth the read even 35 years after it was written)
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I'm skimming the transcript at the link Croesos kindly provided.
I'm not sure I ever want to hear about free speech again! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
One of the team on the baker's side is General Francisco. Just going by the text, I think he's more comfortable with the male justices than female. He speaks more clearly and thoroughly. Seems to get tongue-tied or reticent when interacting with a female justice.
Also interesting to see the justices vie to speak.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
In the oral arguments, lawyer supporting the baker (I don't remember if they were his lawyers or the Trump administration's lawyers) said that chefs of other wedding food and that makeup artists for people getting married are not exercising artistic expression and cannot discriminate against same-sex couples, but bakers making custom cakes (rather than selling pre-made cakes) are because a wedding cake is like a temporary sculpture.
A Trump administration lawyer argued that a baker of custom cakes cannot make an artistic expression/religious freedom argument to deny service based on race, but that s/he can do so based on sexual orientation if it conflicts with his/her religious principles. This lawyer also said that such a baker should be able to put a sign up saying s/he will not make custom cakes for same sex couples.
I am surprised none of the justices asked the lawyers whether a baker should be able to deny service based on the couple's religion - such as a Christian marrying a non Christian, a Jewish person marrying a non-Jewish person (if the baker is Jewish), etc.
I would not be surprised if the Satanist Temple (which exists solely to test conservative arguments for religious freedom) would, after a court ruling in the baker's favor, have an opposite-sex couple come into a shop and say, "We are a Satanist couple getting married and intend to raise our children as Satanists. We just want an ordinary white wedding cake with no special writing or decorations. Can you custom-bake one for us?"
Would/should the legality of a baker's religious-objection-to-bake in the above case I just mentioned hinge on whether the wedding itself was Satanist or not?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I noticed the baker is at least consistent, and not just refusing to do SSM cakes. He also refuses bachelor/ette party cakes, and Halloween items. (Some Christians have major problems with Halloween.)
I'm not sure we know enough about Mr. Phillips and his beliefs to say he's "consistent". He certainly has more than just being anti-gay going on, but whether this represents internal consistency or just the ability to be judgmental about more than one thing at a time is unclear, at least to me.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
In the oral arguments, lawyer supporting the baker (I don't remember if they were his lawyers or the Trump administration's lawyers) said that chefs of other wedding food and that makeup artists for people getting married are not exercising artistic expression and cannot discriminate against same-sex couples, but bakers making custom cakes (rather than selling pre-made cakes) are because a wedding cake is like a temporary sculpture.
That was Ms. Waggoner of the Alliance Defending Freedom (a far-right Christianist legal organization and SPLC-listed hate group), who represented Mr. Phillips as a private individual. She seemed to have a hard time parsing out where the lines were between what does and doesn't constitute "speech".
Solicitor General Francisco represented the U.S. government in support of Mr. Phillips in this case.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If we set aside the LGBT issue, how would this scenario work out:
Suppose an atheist walked into a baker shop and asked the baker to bake a cake with the words "Jesus is not the Son of God" and the baker is a Christian. Would the law be on the baker's side for refusing to bake the cake?
I hope not. As a Christian. If Christians can't be in business and serve the general public, they should get out of business and do something else. Mow lawns or something.
But would they mow lawns of gay married couples?
Re Anglican_Brat's question: Wouldn't have to be an atheist. Could be a Jew or a member of a Center for Spiritual Living.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I think the case would be interesting if it involves a baker baking a cake featuring a bride and groom, and serving it either to a heterosexual or a gay couple.
As in the gay couple receives the same cake as a heterosexual couple.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I think the case would be interesting if it involves a baker baking a cake featuring a bride and groom, and serving it either to a heterosexual or a gay couple.
As in the gay couple receives the same cake as a heterosexual couple.
I remember reading about a baker who only offered mixed-gendered wedding cake toppers. Not because of any objection to same-sex unions but because the only toppers he stocked were mixed gendered couples who were conjoined at the base. (It's possible that these were the only toppers commercially manufactured at the time, this being a while back.) It was impossible to cut them apart without potentially damaging the statuettes, and being a baker and not a tile cutter he had no tools with which to do so anyway. I believe the lesbian couple who inquired eventually opted for a floral cake topper, which he gladly arranged for.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
when ever I see this argument I wonder if the Baker gets to not collect state and city sales tax because that would impose on his religious freedom.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
when ever I see this argument I wonder if the Baker gets to not collect state and city sales tax because that would impose on his religious freedom.
Well, that's kind of at the root of most of these cases; does religious objection count as a valid defense against obeying otherwise generally applicable laws? As Ms. Waggoner accidentally demonstrated in her oral arguments it's very hard to draw a line around which laws you get to ignore because of your religious beliefs and which are truly applicable to everyone.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I wonder if this issue ever applies to overweight people, as in bakers don't want to make wedding cakes for fear of endorsing the sin of gluttony.
Why is it that LGBT persons are being kicked in the shin, whatever have this couple done to this baker to deserve this unprofessional and frankly unChristian response?
This baker knows nothing about Jesus. Jesus would have told him, to quit his whining and bake the cake for the couple. As I recall, "mercy trumps sacrifice", which means that IMHO, acts of love and kindness takes precedence over religious observance and dogma.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wonder if this issue ever applies to overweight people, as in bakers don't want to make wedding cakes for fear of endorsing the sin of gluttony.
Most non-discrimination laws don't forbid discriminating by body weight. It might be covered under disabilities, but only if obesity is legally considered to be a disability.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
But should a Jewish baker be obligated to sell ham sandwiches?
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And yet we typically don't see that kind of thing associated with most foodstuffs. Most bakeries, restaurants, and other similar establishments typically treat it as a problem or mistake when they bring you something other than what you've ordered, rather than a high-minded exercise of artistic virtue, free speech, or religious values.
...and nobody considers it a "high-minded exercise of artistic virtue" if I ask for a painting of a seascape and get nude dancing girls, either. It depends what you're actually ordering.
Most bakery products, restaurant meals, and so on are selling reproductions of things they have previously made. There is, I suppose, artistry involved in the creation of a particular recipe, but reproducing that recipe for a particular customer is craft.
I could, I suppose, buy the argument that a custom one-off cake design was artistry in the way that baking a #27 and icing the couple's names on it wasn't.
But I'm really nor sure that the "artistry" question is at all relevant.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
If it's the baker's own store/cafe, then they can simply not have ham on the menu.
If the baker works at someone else's store/cafe, it's more complicated. And some Jews might be at least mildly ok with *making and serving* a ham sandwich to someone else.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
But should a Jewish baker be obligated to sell ham sandwiches?
No, but they are obligated to sell to anyone who enters their doors if they serve the public.
A Jewish bakery can only provide Kosher food, but they cannot deny service to Gentiles.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And some Jews might be at least mildly ok with *making and serving* a ham sandwich to someone else.
As they are with "Shabbas goys" -- people employed to work on Saturdays because devout Jews can't.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
But should a Jewish baker be obligated to sell ham sandwiches?
No, but they are obligated to sell to anyone who enters their doors if they serve the public.
A Jewish bakery can only provide Kosher food, but they cannot deny service to Gentiles.
What if the bakery is in an Orthodox/Hassidic-only neighborhood?
What if a known white Supremacist comes in?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
But should a Jewish baker be obligated to sell ham sandwiches?
This is a different question. A "Gay Wedding Cake" is not different from a "Straight Wedding Cake". The argument that a cake made for a gay couple is materially different from one made for a straight couple is a non-starter. It's the same cake.
Not even the arguments about being "compelled" to "participate in" a same-sex marriage rely on the cake being somehow different when it's made for a gay couple.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
...unless some SSM couple wants something that expresses very clearly that they are a same-sex couple--people figures, names, rainbow-flag colors, etc.
Not pushing one way or another, just thinking through.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
What if the bakery is in an Orthodox/Hassidic-only neighborhood?
What if a known white Supremacist comes in?
Most non-discrimination laws that apply to the private sector do not forbid discrimination based on political positions.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...unless some SSM couple wants something that expresses very clearly that they are a same-sex couple--people figures, names, rainbow-flag colors, etc.
Not pushing one way or another, just thinking through.
Well, the traditional wedding cake for example is not necessarily "heterosexual", there are some weddings of two women where one woman wears a wedding dress and another woman wears a black tuxedo so a wedding cake with a groom and bride figurine would not necessarily be inappropriate.
Thinking this way, there are no gay cakes or straight cakes. What is required is equal and fair treatment of customers provided by a business available to the public.
If the said baker wanted to only provide wedding cakes to straight couples, he should have conducted those in private, say in his household, and stated that for his business available to the public that he would not provide wedding cakes to anyone.
If you advertise and are open to the public, then you are obligated to serve the public.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
But should a Jewish baker be obligated to sell ham sandwiches?
No, the baker is not. But the obligation is to sell any of the products on sale to anyone who walks in the door, asks for one and is able to pay for it. To get back to the wedding cake, if a baker does not have a little figurine of a same-sex couple for sale, he's not obliged to acquire one. Just as if I go into a shoe shop and ask for a pair of tan shoes with pink shoelaces. If none is in stock, I can't insist that the store owner order one for me (unless there's a sign saying that an order will be placed for anything not in stock).
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
But should a Jewish baker be obligated to sell ham sandwiches?
I don't understand why people constantly confuse the question of "being obliged to sell a thing" with "being obliged to sell to a customer".
They are so clearly different, and yet this comes up again and again.
People seem to believe that there is such a thing as a gay wedding cake. There isn't. The ingredients of a "gay wedding cake" are exactly the same as the ingredients of a "straight wedding cake". The same kinds of eggs, flour and so on.
No-one is asking for businesses to be forced to sell something that they don't already sell.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I've only read a few bits of the oral argument linked to above, but they did get bogged down in whether a wedding cake is a unique expression of the baker's artistic speech or just a food item. And whether or not a makeup artist is an artist. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I can't believe SCOTUS is wasting time on this, but in a country where corporations have religious beliefs, maybe cakes can talk. Or perhaps it is the first step in a sustained campaign to exempt anybody and everybody from pretty much any sort of legislation, as long as they can find a religious argument for it.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Miss Amanda--
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And some Jews might be at least mildly ok with *making and serving* a ham sandwich to someone else.
As they are with "Shabbas goys" -- people employed to work on Saturdays because devout Jews can't.
I've heard of that.
Slightly tangential: in the 60s, there was a TV movie about Jews and Christians in NYC. They normally didn't have much to do with each other. Then the winter holidays came along, and both parties were trying to figure out what work days they could take off for holy days. They wound up trading with each other: Christians filled in for Jews during Hannukah, and Jews for Christians on Christmas.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
This made a big impression on me at the time. Possibly because I lived in a very vanilla place, with very few Jews.
Anyway, another way to work with/around rules!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
What if the bakery is in an Orthodox/Hassidic-only neighborhood?
What if a known white Supremacist comes in?
Most non-discrimination laws that apply to the private sector do not forbid discrimination based on political positions.
Some white supremacists use a religious framework, like the Aryan Nations Church.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
(Missed the edit window.)
So let's say someone wearing a noticeable Nazi symbol comes into the bakery, and orders a cake that says "Aryan Nations Church Rocks!" Does the baker have to do it? (Legally and/or ethically.) If they agreed to make the frosted cake, and told the customer where they could get letters to put on top, would that be enough?
And if they took the order, and had a kabbalistic rabbi quietly come into the kitchen and do heavy-duty blessings and prayers over everything to do with the cake--not telling the customer--would that be wrong?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
How many more weird and wonderful (to say nothing of fanciful) possibilities can people think of! Legally, the answer is that that depends upon the anti-discrimination laws in your part of the world. There's nothing in the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act which outlaws discrimination on the ground of religious belief (or disbelief for that matter) and I can't quickly see anything in Commonwealth legislation which does either. Orfeo would know better about that than I.
Then your addition of the rabbi's carrying out a blessing, even more fanciful. How could that be unlawfully discriminatory?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Gee D--
The bit about the rabbi's blessing was mostly meant as humor, which is why I put a winkie.
With all the different cases of "I can't do this bit of my job because it's against my faith", I've wondered if they'd considered doing it and inwardly praying for the person. "Bless them, show them Your way, save them", etc.
And in the example someone gave where a kosher deli would have to serve Gentiles, I wondered about a white supremacist showing up.
So I got to thinking "Ok, if the law requires you to serve this creep, and everything about him triggers horrible thoughts of Nazis and the Holocaust, what to do?"
So, going with the praying option, I figured it might be a relief to have a rabbi bless the cake, hopefully driving off any evil influence from the customer, and possibly helping the customer be better. Do it quietly, out of sight, and don't tell the customer.
I confess I love that idea, and it's what I'd want to do.
Someone might find that objectionable, if they found out, and try to make a discrimination argument. ("You're saying the customer is so evil that you have to purge and bless the place???")
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by orfeo
quote:
The ingredients of a "gay wedding cake" are exactly the same as the ingredients of a "straight wedding cake".
The physical ingredients of editions of 'Mein Kampf' and 'The Communist Manifesto' are 'exactly the same' - the verbal content, though arguably abstract, very different and not unimportant.
Current discrimination law makes somewhat questionable comparisons between issues of 'sexuality' and of race. Like it or not, "I am white, he is black" is not quite the same kind of issue as "he feels an urge to do sex up another man's shithole". 'Urges to do' are in a different moral ball-park to issues of simply being... and require different approaches to what is 'discrimination'.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Like it or not, "I am white, he is black" is not quite the same kind of issue as "he feels an urge to do sex up another man's shithole".
False characterization!
"I am white; he is black" is **EXACTLY** the same as "I am by nature sexually attracted to women; he is by nature sexually attracted to men." Where he prefers to stick his prong is another matter entirely.
[ 09. December 2017, 12:19: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
So let's say someone wearing a noticeable Nazi symbol comes into the bakery, and orders a cake that says "Aryan Nations Church Rocks!" Does the baker have to do it?
In Mormon Utah years ago (I think it's different now), you could order an alcoholic beverage in a restaurant but the restaurant could not ask you if you'd like one or even advertise that they were available. And the mixer and alcohol would be brought to the table in separate containers for the patron to mix.
So what about the baker handing the customer a pastry tube and saying, "Here, write your own [something inaudible muttered under the breath] slogan on it."
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Current discrimination law makes somewhat questionable comparisons between issues of 'sexuality' and of race.
Would you prefer to consider parallels between religion (another protected category in most anti-discrimination laws) and sexual orientation? Religion seems to be even more malleable than sexual orientation (it seems easier to switch religions than it does to switch orientations), and yet very few people complain how it's questionable to "compare" religion to race in anti-discrimination law.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
by orfeo
quote:
The ingredients of a "gay wedding cake" are exactly the same as the ingredients of a "straight wedding cake".
The physical ingredients of editions of 'Mein Kampf' and 'The Communist Manifesto' are 'exactly the same' - the verbal content, though arguably abstract, very different and not unimportant.
Current discrimination law makes somewhat questionable comparisons between issues of 'sexuality' and of race. Like it or not, "I am white, he is black" is not quite the same kind of issue as "he feels an urge to do sex up another man's shithole". 'Urges to do' are in a different moral ball-park to issues of simply being... and require different approaches to what is 'discrimination'.
“Like it or not” is your code for “I have a fixed opinion on this and no amount of evidence will ever get me to change my mind, so I’m going to demand that you change YOUR mind”.
The law doesn’t agree with you, as you’ve noticed. This is because a heck of a lot of people don’t agree with you. A lot of scientists don’t agree with you. A lot of Christians don’t agree with you.
So no, I don’t feel compelled to agree with you. In fact, I’ve reached the point where simply ignoring your idiosyncratic views is the best strategy. It’s clear that no amount of conversation will ever get you even to the point of acknowledging that maybe you’re wrong and all those other people and the law have a legitimate point of view. So it’s best to just ignore you and stay happy and comfortable with the fact that the law does indeed accept the comparison, and that this is far more useful to me than the opinion of one bloke on the internet who keeps preaching the same old dreck.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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