Ship of Fools: Can anyone learn to sing?

Thread: Can anyone learn to sing? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by 205 (# 206) on :

One of the significant others in my life can carry a tune pretty well and recently I asked her if anyone could learn to sing. She thought not.

Is this an accurate assessment? Can anyone learn to sing (how about: in a manner that society wouldn't immediately compare to Yoko Ono [Razz]

)?

If yes, how do you recommend going about it?

TIA and if this is truly a Purg thread I guess it will end up there.

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :

There are a very few people who don't hear music as music, just as random noise.

Other than that, everyone can learn to sing. Everyone's voice has its own qualities (even Yoko Ono's [Razz]

). A good teacher should be able to teach anyone to sing, and to help everyone to sing better than they already do.

Failing a teacher, singing regularly is the best way to get better at singing. Preferably with other people, and at a volume where you can hear yourself. So many people who think they can't sing have simply given up -- often because they've been told, quite wrongly, that they can't.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I know for certain that some people who can't sing in tune when young can be taught, as I have heard the transformation. The key seems to be regular practice - some people can just do it automatically, others have to work very hard at it.

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

Singing is like playing a musical instrument. No matter how much natural gift you might have, you need to learn and practise to do it well. People wouldn't expect to be able to play an instrument without lessons, so why do they assume they can't sing just because they've never had any help to try? I think almost everyone can sing well enough to be in a choir. There may be a very small percentage of people who can't hear differences between musical notes (or have some other hearing impairment) who won't be able to, but I think that's a much smaller percentage than the people who think "I'm tone deaf" and so don't try to sing.

Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :

I'm firmly of the belief that very few people will never be able to sing at all. As long as someone can hear different pitches, then using the voice to make particular pitches in order is a matter of practice. Of course this is easier for some people than others, but barring physical anomalies, shouldn't be impossible for most.

As an aside, Op 1 has been able to sing remarkably tunefully from the age of 2. I remember her early attempts at 'Twinkle twinkle little star' when she didn't repeat one note enough times, and got noticeably confused that she was going to get to the last note of the tune with a syllable still remaining. Took her a few days, then she cracked it!

Op2 on the other hand, does not find singing nearly so easy. Until about 6-8 months ago, she'd go up and down in the right places, but by very random amounts - usually not far enough. However, she's in the church and school choirs now, and her class have done a lot of singing at school, and the improvement is astonishing! I can now learn a new tune that she sings to me as long as it's one she's very confident on. We're lucky that no-one told her she 'couldn't sing', but instead she's had encouragement to listen to the notes she's singing and make sure they match the notes she can hear from the accompaniment or whatever.

Positive encouragement all the way! [Smile]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

A number of languages are tonal -- a syllable changes meaning if spoken at a different pitch, like, a specific word on one tone is "Mother-in-law" but that same word on a relatively higher tone is "table salt." No one in those cultures is "tone deaf."

So yes, anyone can learn to hear differences in pitches, anyone can learn to produce syllables on varied pitches. Anyone can learn to sing.

Posted by DunkDuffel (# 16576) on :

At the age of 12, I was embarrassed to be asked to leave the school choir, because I "couldn't sing". As a teenager, I was encouraged not to join in with choruses at the youth group. Neither did much for my confidence.

At Uni, a very nice and musical girl encouraged me to keep singing and singing alongside her at church helped. My friends at home remarked on the transformation with amazement.

Reader, I married her. [Yipee]

I'm not a very strong singer, although a week on Iona always boosts my confidence, to the point where, on returning, I have taught groups new songs by singing to them. This usually fades after a few months. Likewise holding a part.

These days, the very nice and musical lady sings for a living (Canon Precentor) and one of the offsprung is trying to make a living from music (Anyone want a community musician for choirs and/or lessons in North London?).

So, I'd say, almost anyone can learn to sing. It makes a big difference whether or not you grow up with music at home. I didn't, she did, our kids all did and they are all "musical".

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Presumably anyone can leqrn to sing better than they can already sing. That's not the same as learning to sing well.

quote:
Originally posted by DunkDuffel:
At the age of 12, I was embarrassed to be asked to leave the school choir...

Younger than that for me! And I wasn;t allowed in at all because they said I was "tone deaf". (*)

quote:

As a teenager, I was encouraged not to join in with choruses at the youth group.

Very much the same here. Nowadays I just belt them out - though that's less embarrassing if everyone else is singing loudly too.

quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
People wouldn't expect to be able to play an instrument without lessons, so why do they assume they can't sing just because they've never had any help to try?

Maybe because that's what they were taught by music teachers at school?

No-one ever tried to teach us to sing when we were kids. It was assumed you either could or you couldn't. If you could you could be in the school choir and so on, if you couldn't you couldn't. Music lessons weren't about learning to sing. Singing was assumed to be a natural human activity which some people could do and others not.

Music lessons weren't about learning to sing, though there was some sort of communal singing in them when we were very young - maybe up to age 8 or 9. After than the lessons were about evenly divided between a sort of basic "musical appreciation" ("listen to this Beethoven, its not boring really") and making music with instuments.

We were taught to play instuments (things you bang together - and also recorders - these days they use electronic keyboards too), very basically up t the age of maybe 12 or 13, and if you wanted you could go on to study "grown up" instruments after that (I tried the clarinet and was rubbish at it, then the oboe and flute, both of which I was a little less bad at, but never put enough practice in to learn properly) That was where actual music teaching came in - the instruments. Reading music, and studying music theory, were part of learning to play an instrument, not singing. Singing was all done by ear. Anyway, that was the case at both the schools I went to, and I believe it was at both the schools my daughter went to over thirty years later. It might be done differently in other places.

This must be about the sixth or seventh time I've said all that on the Ship - it comes up every few months - one of the classic pond differences.

(*) Which of course I know now know to be nonsense. Almost no-one is truly tone deaf, that is they cannot tell whether one sound is higher or lower pitched than another. The few people who are would have trouble understanding normal speech, never mind singing. "Tone deaf" is just a very stupid name for not being able to sing very well. Bad singing isn't so much about not being able to hear differences in pitch - almost everyone can do that - as not being able to match a pitch precisely with your own voice. Its about production, not perception.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Almost no-one is truly tone deaf, that is they cannot tell whether one sound is higher or lower pitched than another.

When the difference between two tones is large, obviously I can tell which is higher and which is lower. But when the difference is slight I really can't. That's why I need an electronic tuner for my guitar - I simply can't tune it accurately enough by ear.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I know for certain that some people who can't sing in tune when young can be taught, as I have heard the transformation. The key seems to be regular practice - some people can just do it automatically, others have to work very hard at it.

I used to be in a children's choir that had no auditions. You started in the training choir, once you were good enough you moved up to the junior choir, then once you were even better you went into the concert choir.

Some people took a year to get into concert choir, and some people took five. But everybody made it in the end. And this unauditioned choir frequently won their category at Llangollen Eistedfod, and made the semi-finals of Choir of the Year.

I'm not saying everyone has what it takes to stand on the stage of La Scala. But everyone (possibly excepting those with hearing impairments) can learn to carry a tune, a bit of basic harmony, and can learn to read music. It just depends on the effort you put in. My choir rehearsed two evenings a week, and depending on which bits of the choir you were in it could be up to 4 hours in a rehearsal, plus extra ones on weekends in the run up to a concert. (Also, kids learn quicker.) So when people say to me "Oh, you're so musical. I can't sing at all!", my bitten back response is that I may have had a bit of natural talent, but mostly it came from practice and perseverance!

I echo the advice of others in this thread: if you want to learn singing, do lots of it! Join a choir — you can find unauditioned choirs for adults too if you look around, although I'm not sure you'd get the same amount of tuition in technique that I did as a kid. Get lessons if you can afford it. Give yourself a goal, such as singing in the chorus with your local musical theatre society, or whatever. And don't listen if anyone tries to tell you it's impossible for you to learn.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I know for certain that some people who can't sing in tune when young can be taught, as I have heard the transformation. The key seems to be regular practice - some people can just do it automatically, others have to work very hard at it.

Yes, I am/was one of the latter. I have a good ear, but an imprecise mouth if that makes sense. I can work out pieces on the piano by ear and look at sheet music and "hear" it reasonably accurately if it's not too weird, but getting my voice to produce what I'm reading or hearing was the hard bit for me. It just took a lot of work.

I still finding matching a single pitch hard (though doable), but I can join in a melody accurately -- Somehow a moving target's easier to hit -- and I'm often called on to lead singing in chapel (which just means singing the first line of everything unaccompanied before everyone comes in).

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

I'm not at all convinced that lots of singing is the trick. I sing quite a lot, and definitely loudly enough to hear myself. My problem is that I can't tell whether the note I'm singing is the same as the note other people are singing / playing. I'm told that sometimes I sing in tune, sometimes I'm consistently a tone out...

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I used to be in the choir at primary school. No-one would believe it these days.

Can anyone sing? Yes I think anyone - with a number of important exceptions - can learn to sing. But not everyone can be taught to sing particularly well - not even to Bob Dylans standard. But they can all be improved.

The exceptions are those with various disabilities, including some of those who are deaf, or those who are unable to learn. This is not meant to stigmatise anyone, just that some physical issues may mean they cannot learn.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

I used to feel sorry for my younger brother when we'd be asked to sing at my Gran's chapel and he was obviously the one who couldn't stay in tune. After he went off to study in Edinburgh I visited the church he was worshipping in and was astonished to see him get up with the youth group he was helping with and sing rather well with them. He had been singing in church all his life, but somehow it had clicked for him when he was away from home. Maybe he gained confidence once us horrible menaces weren't there to discourage him any more.

Cattyish.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

One of my brothers couldn't sing in tune, but wanted to, a lot - he got together with some friends to form a band and they were banished to the garage, where they could do least damage. Eventually the penny dropped and he could sing in tune by the time he went away to university.

My other brother, though, had a wonderful voice from about age 3. But he didn't want to sing - he joined the football club instead. What a waste of an excellent voice!

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :

When I was about 13 our new music teacher decided everyone had to audition for the school choir, publicly! During the music lesson we all had to get up and sing and he would tell us whether we could join or not (we had no say in the matter).
My turn came and I nervously stood up, having been told all my life that I couldn't carry a tune in a skip let alone a bucket, of course it was a disaster. The bast**d looked me up and down a couple of times and said "what a shame, your voice is the only part of you that's flat!"
Well meaning people say that I can vaguely sing alright in one key, but if I try to vary off that it all goes horribly wrong.
I love singing and take the view that the bible tells us to make a joyful noise to the Lord, not necessarily a tuneful one [Biased]

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

I recommend you join a choir. I used to be pretty bad, now I can read the bass clef and carry the base line. As long as I ignore the altoes and tenors. And the melody.

Men are at a disadvantage because puberty shifts our voices down to tenor or bass, which aren't favoured with the melody in most pieces. So to be good as a male singer you do have to put in some time learning. Plus there is the barrier of learning the bass clef.

But after a while you'll find your favourite key, I like D Major or C, but then again I am a bass.

Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :

A voice teacher of my acquaintance was telling me about a young woman (whom I also know) who has begun to take lessons with him. When she was a child, she was told she shouldn't sing, and so she didn't.

Now in her early 30s, she wants to be able to sing in church. Apparently, the first eight weeks or so of lessons consisted of the teacher playing notes one at a time on the piano and the student trying, with variable success, to sing each pitch.

She's making progress, but how much better if she'd been able to learn to tune when she was a child!

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I recommend you join a choir.

You have to check it's the sort of choir which can teach you - some choir masters are exceptionally busy and therefore cannot afford to give time to individuals. Some choirs therefore expect you to be able to sight-read on entry, or make alternative provision with an individual voice coach to prepare you to that standard.

Other choirs, of course, accept all abilities and maybe even have a designated tutor to help those who need additional skills coaching. You would need to discuss this with the individual choirmaster, who will try to match your needs with the resources available or make suggestions as to other choirs or teachers in the area which can do this.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
make alternative provision with an individual voice coach to prepare you to that standard.

I can't read for singing (though I can read sax parts) - how on earth does someone help you 'get' a written interval when it's not a case of pressing keys?

And who does one speak to for help with technique or possible physical problems? When I sing _really_ loud, I'm OK for a bit and then I get a kind of tickle at the back of the throat, my eyes start to water and I cough and have to stop. Much to the relief of the rest of the congregation I guess [Smile]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
When I was about 13 our new music teacher decided everyone had to audition for the school choir, publicly! During the music lesson we all had to get up and sing and he would tell us whether we could join or not (we had no say in the matter).

Same for us, except more like 8 than 13.

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I can't read for singing (though I can read sax parts) - how on earth does someone help you 'get' a written interval when it's not a case of pressing keys?

Same here. Not that I can play the sax, but I can read music so if I could play the sax I could read the sax parts. Come to think of it as the fingering is pretty straightforward (like a flute or a tin whistle and unlike a clarinet) I suppose I can read sax parts and even play them - it would just sound horrible.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

Mark-in-Manchester, my singing teacher has me practicing scales and arpeggios by voice with the music in front of me as well as songs. The intervals become more a matter of habit and muscle memory with practice. I don't have perfect pitch, and my sight reading isn't brilliant, but I have improved.

The voice tickle thing is interesting. I've been warned off singing as loud as I can, and instead taught to breathe properly and open my mouth properly so that the volume comes from my diaphragm. I have got louder, to the point where the dog gives me funny looks, and my neighbours hear me practicing.

Mr C isn't fond of the classical music I'm learning, so I wait until he's out, but the neighbours like it!

Cattyish, improver.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I can't read for singing (though I can read sax parts) - how on earth does someone help you 'get' a written interval when it's not a case of pressing keys?

And who does one speak to for help with technique or possible physical problems? When I sing _really_ loud, I'm OK for a bit and then I get a kind of tickle at the back of the throat, my eyes start to water and I cough and have to stop. Much to the relief of the rest of the congregation I guess

Intervals can be worked out (I remember learning this for the aural tests when learning to play an instrument), for example a fourth is the first interval in 'Away in a Manger', a sixth is the first interval in 'Lavender's Blue' - the more you practise them in different keys while looking at the printed music, the quicker you recognise them.

As well as singing teachers, speech therapists can also help with voice problems.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Intervals can be worked out (I remember learning this for the aural tests when learning to play an instrument), for example a fourth is the first interval in 'Away in a Manger', a sixth is the first interval in 'Lavender's Blue' - the more you practise them in different keys while looking at the printed music, the quicker you recognise them.

"Lavender's Blue," a sixth? The first interval sounds like a major third to me (followed by a fourth, which makes the first three notes outline a major sixth). Maybe you sing it to a different tune than the one I know!

"My Bonnie" was always the mnemonic I used for major sixths.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Actually I think we're both wrong. 'Lavender's Green' is the sixth. Dragging my mind back to the depths of my 10 year old brain - I suggest you don't take my word for it and learn properly from a real music teacher! [Biased]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Actually I think we're both wrong. 'Lavender's Green' is the sixth. Dragging my mind back to the depths of my 10 year old brain - I suggest you don't take my word for it and learn properly from a real music teacher!

Some YouTube-ing has made me realize that we are indeed thinking of different tunes. You're referring to this tune; I was thinking of the tune used in Burl Ives' recording (it's from a Disney movie, so de facto the "proper" one in the USA).

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

The easiest one to remember for a perfect 6th is "My bonnie lies over the ocean". Twinkle Twinkle little star is a perfect 5th.

Posted by Sighthound (# 15185) on :

I gave up trying to sing properly when my music teacher informed me that at my age my voice shouldn't have broken. (It had.)

It was such an incredibly stupid thing to say that it put me right off the subject. I accept I can't sing properly, just as I'm not up to playing centre-forward for Manchester City or opening the batting for Lancashire. But I suppose (if inclined) I could work really hard and get to be good enough to play some part in a choir, just as I could take part in football or cricket on the beach. It's just that I'm not inclined. I have things I can do well, and I'm too old to want to do things I can do badly.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

At school we were "forced" to learn to sing well and always to understand (we were taught) to read properly the music, eg, do, me, fa, so, la, tee, do, tee, la, so, so, so, la, so, fa, me, ray, me, me, ray, do, me, so, do, la, so, fa, me, ray, so, la, tee, do, fa, me, ray, do.

Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on :

I've just joined a Rock Choir which I'm really enjoying. It is encouragingly inclusive - no sheet music is used (our ears are being trained to follow the appropriate part), we sing music that most people would be familiar with, and there are no auditions (unlike all the other choirs in town). We don't get individual tuition unless we want to try out a solo part, but we are being taught how to sing, and sound really good. We have frequent gigs (including the O2 next year [Yipee]

) with return invitations, so our sound seems to be liked. Some of the other choirs in town are rather sniffy about us, but they've not heard us and anyway, a far wider spectrum of people get to sing - I sometimes sit next to a partially deaf lady but that is an extreme example. The bit that I find most challenging is the dance moves but I'm gradually getting the hang of those.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

That sounds fabulous daisydaisy! And dancing while singing is always tricky. You still have to breathe right for the singing while putting it about.

Cattyish, opera chorus.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
I gave up trying to sing properly when my music teacher informed me that at my age my voice shouldn't have broken. (It had.)

Something similar happened to me. A choirmaster noticed I couldn't get a to note so he sent me home.

I joined another church choir where I was taught to sing alto, at which my voice stayed for about three years before I joined the basses.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I can't read for singing (though I can read sax parts) - how on earth does someone help you 'get' a written interval when it's not a case of pressing keys?

It's all about being able to spot patterns. Part of this is knowing a little music theory: being able to tell that the jump from an F to a Bb is going to sound the same as from a C to a F. Having a sense of where you are in the scale is important too (and I often use that more than knowledge of intervals I think) -- you should always be able to feel your way back to do. Knowing arpeggios and scales is important too.

So much of 'non-weird' music just consists of moving up and down a scale in neighbor tones interspersed with some thirds, fourths and fifths, often formed into arpeggios. If you know how to move up and down a scale, sing arpeggios, and can do fifths and major/minor thirds, you can sight sing most stuff. You'll just need to go to a keyboard to check the weird jumps and the key changes.

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

I don't get to sing much, but on those occasions when I get to be a singer rather than an accompanist, I find my fingers playing (in the air or on my leg) the notes of my part. When I do, the intervals come easily.

I think that's because of the many, many years of playing, and knowing what the intervals sound and feel like in my fingers, even though I wasn't singing them. This could work for others, I think! YMMV

Posted by ErinBear (# 13173) on :

I agree with what many others are saying. I believe that just about anybody can sing, if they wish to do so. I also agree that, for whatever mysterious reason, some people naturally are born with the propensity to sing more easily, and hear and match pitch. Other people may have to work harder at it if they wish to do so.

I have a friend who was in our church choir, and had trouble singing. She had regular trouble matching pitches, and also her vocal range was narrow. She wanted to not just sing in the choir, but sing solos. She hated being passed over. She decided to take singing lessons. I also helped her practice from time to time as she learned to read music better. I was really astounded with the progress she made, even within one year. She worked very hard, and already was singing on pitch infinitely better. Within another year, the choir director was giving her solos, and she had earned them! Her voice had improved immensely. She continued to take lessons and improve as the years went by. She won't be Frederica von Stade. But who of us will? Very few people are in that class. She made wonderful improvement, and her confidence in general has been raised. It has been wonderful to see the transformation.

I do believe almost anyone can improve their singing skills with the desire to do so, and with effort. I also concur with the suggestion to join a choir. That's a good place to start.

Blessings,
Erin

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
Not that I can play the sax, but I can read music so if I could play the sax I could read the sax parts. Come to think of it as the fingering is pretty straightforward

You're right, Ken - it's one of the easier instruments, I reckon. When I used to play the odd big band gig, the old guys on trumpet used to give it the 'when are you going to learn a real instrument, young man' thing. [Smile]

Proper big band players have to do everything - sh*t hot sight reading with wierd rhythms, intervals and harmonies, plus decent improvisation over a set of changes. I didn't last long...now I hink and honk in my room, and sing loud in church. Perhaps singing lessons might be fun - what does one do, walk into a music shop (for me, Forsyth's on Deansgate, probably) and look at the board?

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
When I used to play the odd big band gig, the old guys on trumpet used to give it the 'when are you going to learn a real instrument, young man' thing.

I can't get a note out of a trumpet. Tried to play the bugle for months once, never got beyond a vague squawk. At least its easy to make sounds with woodwinds!

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

First, sing softer if you are getting a tickle in your throat. Open up your throat more, it happens to me sometimes. You've constricted your throat too much.

Second, vocal music is generally simpler than instrumental music, you won't get much quicker than an eighth note and there are a lot of whole notes, ties, slurs and other holds.

If you are a bass, learn to sing B flat. This note features in the keys of F, B Flat and E Flat. It is really common and for men generally very easy. Next learn to do G sharp. This gives you the crucial notes for G and D. I love singing D but my voice transitions at D down into a "chest voice". Singing a D while in the key of F is a bit difficult and I have to work at it.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
mark_in_manchester: When I used to play the odd big band gig, the old guys on trumpet used to give it the 'when are you going to learn a real instrument, young man' thing.

And they're right! [Big Grin]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If you are a bass, learn to sing B flat. This note features in the keys of F, B Flat and E Flat. It is really common and for men generally very easy. Next learn to do G sharp. This gives you the crucial notes for G and D.

You are already way beyond even most of our church choir never mind the rest of the congregation. I'm sure many of them sing those notes but they don't know the names of them and they don't read music while singing (even if they do when playing a musical instrument) and even the best singers among them will, like nearly everyone who can sing in tune, sing in relative pitch.

It means nothing to say to someone "sing a B" or "sing a G" unless they are one of the tiny minority who not only have absolute pitch but can also sing "the note in their head" without reference to an external standard. The vast majority, even of professional singers, use relative pitch when singing. Today's G might not be the same actual note as yesterday's G, it depends on where you start. If an accompanist played a C chord and asked a singer to sing a G on top of it, a trained singer of course could. But if the next day they came back with a piano tuned a semi-tone lower so their C was actually concert-pitch B, most singers would happily sing lower and not notice anything had changed.

Pretty obviously when you think abvout it. In the 17th & 18th centuries standard tuning varied by as much as five or six semitones - one man's A could be another's C# - and even nowadays early music performers often work a semitone above or below concert pitch. But the singers still manage to sing their songs.

For what its worth there is evidence that, if you teach people to sing a simple song, and then ask them to sing it back to you unaccompanied a few days later, even if they get the tune right its often in a different key. Apparently for untrained singers that's typically lower than the key the song is written in - it seems that most music in our culture is written for voices that are rather higher-pitched than average (some people think that's because voices are getting lower as we are on average larger than our ancestors, others think that its because trained singers tend to increase their range upwards more than downwards, I think its even been suggested that musicians like to show off by going higher so things tend to drift upwards over time)

Some people also think there are culturally determined keys and pirches, so even those who don't have absolute pitch will tend towards singing in the same key if they start off unacompanied. I can't remember where I read it but at least one set of researchers claimed that British people seem to tend towards singing in G. Someone else said the Dutch prefer C. Thoiugh as most singers can't hit a note within a semitone without a reference pitch, one persons' G is going to be someone else's G#.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
It means nothing to say to someone "sing a B" or "sing a G" unless they are one of the tiny minority who not only have absolute pitch but can also sing "the note in their head" without reference to an external standard. The vast majority, even of professional singers, use relative pitch when singing. Today's G might not be the same actual note as yesterday's G, it depends on where you start. If an accompanist played a C chord and asked a singer to sing a G on top of it, a trained singer of course could. But if the next day they came back with a piano tuned a semi-tone lower so their C was actually concert-pitch B, most singers would happily sing lower and not notice anything had changed.

Unless you are explicitly doing Baroque music, it is assumed that music is tuned to present concert pitch. "Sing a B flat" means to sing a low B flat played by the piano or organ the choir uses. It plays, you repeat, and after a few months you should be able to tell what note is being played just by ear.

This may be a pond difference. In Canada the all-pervasive influence of the Royal Conservatory of Music in piano and voice lessons means that voice singers are taught from early on to read music. My choir purchases its anthems as sheet music from the Canadian Choral Centre in Winnipeg, whose business is selling sheet music.

The Canadian standard is for choirs to read music.

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
In Canada the all-pervasive influence of the Royal Conservatory of Music in piano and voice lessons means that voice singers are taught from early on to read music. My choir purchases its anthems as sheet music from the Canadian Choral Centre in Winnipeg, whose business is selling sheet music.

The Canadian standard is for choirs to read music.

I'm saddened to hear that your choir would exclude blind and partially sighted people and dyslexics who have difficulty with which line the dot is on.

There are enough gifted blind singers about to show that the ability to read music, whilst being advantageous, in not absolutely necessary.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
I'm saddened to hear that your choir would exclude blind and partially sighted people and dyslexics who have difficulty with which line the dot is on.

There are enough gifted blind singers about to show that the ability to read music, whilst being advantageous, in not absolutely necessary.

That's an interesting one, because usually a choir that requires sight-reading ability does so in order to drastically reduce rehearsal time, rather than because the end result is better. If you can hand the choir some music and have them sing it through, albeit scrappily on the first readthrough, you can get a whole lot more done in minimal time.

Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on :

At my choir we don't use sheet music and by the end of each session have created a good harmony - on the more complex pieces it might take a couple of evenings, but usually we get a piece presentable within one evening.

Isn't Jules Holland another who doesn't read music?

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Almost every piece of music I have sung in the various choirs I have been in has been written in sheet music format.

The UCCan's standard pew hymn book has the full music written in it.

The various stores which sell sheet music stay in business because choirs read music.

Recognizing what a B-flat is, when played on the piano/organ and when seen in the music is very easy. Soon you will learn the tone on your own and away you go.

Sight-reading is not the same as reading music. Sight-reading is the ability to sing what is on the paper without having the tune played beforehand. That's a difficult skill. Reading music makes following the tune easier and is far easier.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

My singing skills have deteriorated over the past few years as a result of joining a specialist early music choir! I have perfect pitch normally, which I've gradually realised is pretty rare even in good choirs, but recently we've done our unaccompanied concerts at modern pitch and our other concerts with baroque tuned instruments, which has completely confused me. A few years ago I used to be able to give notes to tune the choir. Now my note is sometimes correct and sometimes a semitone flat. [Waterworks]

The conductor is very apologetic about this, but he's always envied my ability to pitch and I think I detect a note of schadenfreude... [Paranoid]

Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :

quote:

Recognizing what a B-flat is, when played on the piano/organ and when seen in the music is very easy. Soon you will learn the tone on your own and away you go.

I'm not convinced that anyone can learn absolute pitch. I've sung in choirs with many well-trained musicians for close to 30 years, and only a handful have had absolute pitch. While it's very useful, and I greatly admire anyone who has it, being able to pick a note out of the air isn't essential to becoming a skilled singer.

[ 21. May 2012, 20:34: Message edited by: Lothiriel ]

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :

I don't have absolute pitch, just an approximate version of it. Play me a D and I'll make a guess between C and E. Oddly I tend to think a pitch is lower if I have a cold. Why is this?

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :

I meant higher not lower, I thing a pitch is higher, and sing lower when I have a cold. Has anyone got an explanation?

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

The Kirk (Crown Court) I visit often, evening service in London, has good hymn book, with always the music as well as the words, unless you need much bigger words, and they have some for that too. Good organist there! So, if you don't recognise the hymn music, it's there for people to see.
And a long time ago in Scotland we always had the psalms with music in the book, and we were told which one to see, as there was a separate half that we could move to above the psalm words.

Posted by Eleanor Jane (# 13102) on :

Yes! (In answer to the OP)

It's somewhat annoying when people say 'Oh you're so lucky to be able to sing!'. I do try and convince them that it's years of lessons, singing in choirs etc. and that they could do it too but usually to no avail.

I think some people do have a natural beauty in their voice that training enhances. With the same effort some can become Kiri Te Kanawa or Aretha Franklin and some will be soloists in their choir, local opera company or lead a small jazz band, but that's fine. We can all enjoy singing and can all improve with lessons.

Personally, I wouldn't depend on a choir to teach you how to sing. I've never been in one that does anything more than give occasional tips. You could easily reinforce your bad habits. Certainly our church music group reinforced a lot of bad habits - the singers mostly turned out very forced and a bit flat from singing over amplified instruments without a mic. Choirs are good for enjoying a sing with other people so they'd at least get your voice working... but it might not be in the best way.

I'd say find a singing teacher you're comfortable with (not too fancy or expensive, just a nice person with a good reputation for teaching singing). And enjoy!

P.S. wish me luck - I'm auditioning for a big fancy choir this Saturday... [Ultra confused]

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

My wife attempted to give me a voice lesson years ago, but it wouldn't take. That said, the only song I can sing well is ACDC's Dirty Deeds: I was a big hit at karaoke down at the beach in San Diego a couple of years ago.

For serious music, I now sing with my wife in a local secular choir that does traditional Irish music. Though I read drum and piano music fairly well, I struggle with a vocal score. What helps me most, with my voice type, is to sit next to a strong bass. After just a few weeks, I am muddling through and have steadily improved. Additionally, since we are new, we don't have to perform at the choir's upcoming concert!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eleanor Jane:

I'd say find a singing teacher you're comfortable with (not too fancy or expensive, just a nice person with a good reputation for teaching singing).

Where re these wondertful singing teachers and why don't they ever work in schools? If they are anything like school music teachers they will take one listen to most of us bad singers and run away.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Eleanor Jane:

I'd say find a singing teacher you're comfortable with (not too fancy or expensive, just a nice person with a good reputation for teaching singing).

Where re these wondertful singing teachers and why don't they ever work in schools? If they are anything like school music teachers they will take one listen to most of us bad singers and run away.

They do, but you have to pay for them.

At all schools I've been to or heard about, there's a difference between the music lessons (whole class affairs, part of the curriculum, and you don't learn much by way of technique) and the individual tuition (the parents pay through the nose for half an hour a week, kid gets to leave class at the appointed time, and is taught one-on-one how to sing or play the trumpet or whatever). The latter are usually conducted by visiting music teachers who might spend one or two days at the school per week, rather than by employees of the school. They're not able to run away because they'd lose a revenue stream!

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Maybe this is a bit purgatorial… but ISTM that there are a couple of kinds of music teachers.

First, there are the kind, encouraging ones. The conductor I currently work with is in this camp and it makes learning a pleasure. You're also more likely to learn something because you're relaxed and comfortable.

Second, there are the tyrannical mean ones. These are unfortunately far too common, especially in classical music, because the Evil Music Teacher™ is rather an established culture ("I got rapped over the knuckles with a ruler and it never did me any harm…" - which is a load of cobblers because the people it did do harm got filtered out of the system when they gave up and consequently never became music teachers).

It furthermore seems to me that the second type are more likely to be teaching young people (and that includes in the one on one through the nose lessons that Amorya mentioned) and would-be professionals than adults and amateurs. For the simple reason that most sensible adults refuse to pay good money to someone who is rude to them and makes them cry. At this stage in my life, if a music teacher is rude or cruel to me, I'm going to tell them in no uncertain terms to sod off, and then go and find a different teacher.

What I'm attempting to say, not very well, is that music teachers can to some extent permit themselves to be much more unkind to children than they can to adults, and unfortunately some of them do.

Posted by Diomedes (# 13482) on :

Following on from La Vie en Rouge's comment - my son and his partner are both trained musicians and count themselves lucky to have avoided teaching to earn a living in music. Many of their Uni/Conservatoire peers have found themselves teaching children - a few of them love doing so and probably therefore do a good job, but for others who wanted to be performers, composers etc it's a second or third choice of career and they resent doing it. They are the ones to avoid!

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