Ship of Fools: Sober Preacher's Grandkid's Baptism: A Scoto-Catholic Event!

Thread: Sober Preacher's Grandkid's Baptism: A Scoto-Catholic Event! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

My darling niece, my brother's daughter, is going to be baptized in late April. Of course it's going to be done at the church I attend where I'm the Worship Team Leader. The minister will be the presider, the grandparents are not doing the baptism (for reasons that do not bear discussing here).

Up to now our church has been using the standard baptismal service from the 1969 Service Book, a standard English-language Protestant service, very MOTR and possibly uninspired. However I recently purchased the United Church of Canada's new service book, Celebrate God's Presence and together with the Minister I have updated our service to that book's new standards, plus a few extras my church likes. Since I did the service order, the our congregation likes traditional with a bit of tat and show and we have a good choir, it's going to be a Scoto-Catholic Event. [Big Grin]

Thus I present the following for the esteemed consideration of the Eccles crowd. The font is a traditional wooden one with metal basin, brought to the Chancel for baptisms which take place after the first hymn. The Minister is in Geneva gown and stole, Rev. Lovejoy style.

Order of Service:

Statement of Purpose:
Hear this record of Jesus’ concern for welcoming children:

People were bringing little children to Jesus in order than he might bless them; and the disciples spoke sternly to them.

But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the little children come unto me, do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the Kingdom of God belongs. Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child will not enter it."

And Jesus took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them, and blessed them.

- Scripture Passage: Matthew 28: 18 - 20.
- Presentation by Clerk of Church Council (Session)
-Questions for Parents
Q: Do you believe in One God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
A: I do, by the Grace of God.
Q: Trusting the Gracious Mercy of God, will you turn from the forces of evil, and renounce their power?
A: I do, by the Grace of God.
Q: Will you join with your brothers and sisters in this congregation to share in the life, work and ministry of Jesus Christ?
A: I will, God being my helper.
Q: Will you share your faith with [the children], growing with them in faith, hope and love?
A: I will, God being my helper.

- Congregational Commitment:
Q: We have heard the will of [the children]. Will you receive them in Christ’s name, as we ourselves have been received? We all belong to one household of faith in Jesus Christ.
Will you support [the children] with constant love, wholesome example, Christian teaching and faithful prayer?
A: We will, God being our helper.

- Recitation of Apostle's Creed.

- Prayer of Thanksgiving and Pouring of Water:
Gracious and Holy God, we bless you for the gift of life,
and, within it, the gift of water.
Over its unshaped promise your spirit hovered at creation.
By water, comes the growth of the earth.
Through water, you led the children of Israel to freedom.
In the waters of the Jordan your son Jesus was baptized.
Now may your Spirit be upon us and what we do,
that this water may be a sign for all of new life in Christ, in whose name we pray

Splashing with "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

- Blessing from Minister.
For you, little child, Jesus Christ has come, he has fought, he has suffered. For you he entered into the shadows of Gethsemane and the terror of Calvary; for you he uttered the cry ‘it is finished.’ For you he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and there for you he intercedes. For you, even though you do not yet know it yet, little child, but in this way the Word of the Gospel is made true, "We love Him because He first loved us." [Got this from the Ship, the minister loves it.]

- Choir sings Aaronic Blessing while baby and minster goe on walkabout.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Excellent!

Does what it says on the tin.......

I guess it might not be part of your church's tradition to use holy oil, but I always think that the giving of a candle (lit from the Paschal Candle) is a powerful symbol of the light of the risen Christ which one hopes and prays will illuminate the lives of the child and parents.

Our priest-in-charge usually suggests to the parents that they keep the candle, after the Baptism, in their souvenir-box (or whatever) and take it out to light it again and say a prayer on the anniversary of the Baptism. I wonder how many actually do.....??

Oh.....by the way..... white stole, please!

Ian J.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I always wear the colour of the day for baptisms...

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Fie upon you, fie! fie! fie!

White for Baptism, as Our Lord and His Blessed Mother intended......

Ian J.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Depends whether it is within the Sunday mass or not.

Posted by The Royal Spaniel (# 40) on :

Oh.yes - white for Baptism
They shouldn't splash though - should they? I thought one had to pour ( or totally immerse)?

Posted by The Royal Spaniel (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Fie upon you, fie! fie! fie!

White for Baptism, as Our Lord and His Blessed Mother intended......

Ian J.

Well - you can remove the stole and/or chasuble and replace it by a white stole ( not sure if you should wear a chasuble during baptism?)
Of course Bishop's Finger you should realise that Fr.Seasick can at times be more Anglican than the Anglicans so I suppose he might be right........

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

The minister only has a white stole, it belonged to his father who gave it to him at his ordination. He really was not into liturgy at all until I came around and started putting out the proper hangings on the pulpit for the season. People like that, they know it should change and be seasonal, they just don't know where to find the guide.

We do baptisms after the first hymn, Prayer of Approach, psalm and Children's Lesson. The children stay up for Baptisms then go down to Sunday School.

Baptized infants get a bible and a nice Certificate of Baptism signed by the Clerk of the Church Council (aka Session).

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

The very first question to the parents is always "Do you desire that this child be baptised?"
And yeah, they wouldn't be there if they didn't, but you still need to ask and receive an answer before proceeding further.
It is the first step to their statement of committment.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I think that last question "Will you share your faith with [the children]..." spoils the "liturgical ventriloquism" of the parents answering on behalf of their children. The "questions for the parents" should be the questions for the child. She's the one being baptized after all!

Zach

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Actually the UCCan takes the line that in an infant baptism, the parents make an explicit covenant to raise the child in the Christian faith.

And on the subject of chasubles, if the Anglo-Catholics thought this was an Anglo-Catholc thread, the joke is on you.

This is a Reformed thread. [Big Grin]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

We do in the Episcopal Church too. I would move that last question to after the congregational pledge. That way, the profession of faith is immediately followed by "We have heard the will of [the children]..." and the parents are making their pledge as part of the community supporting the child, rather than the ones making the profession of faith.

Zach

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

's not the way it is in the book, though....

I may bring it up with the Minister on Sunday.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

This is a Reformed thread.

If it's a Reformed thread, what are we doing talking about stoles? [Razz]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Lots of Reformed minister wear stoles these days.

As for Fr. Seasick being right, he usually is.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lots of Reformed minister wear stoles these days.

I know! Only teasing!

quote:
As for Fr. Seasick being right, he usually is.

Almost always. [Smile]

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

That looks great, and not unlike what we do in the Kirk. I haven't got my Common Order to hand, but will check it later. From memory, I think we separate out the parents' part into Confession of Faith and Responses. The promise to bring up the child in the church is part of the responses, which are made after the baptism ... because God's grace to the child is not dependent on any promises we make, of course!

quote:
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel
They shouldn't splash though - should they? I thought one had to pour ( or totally immerse)?

I always splash! [Big Grin]

And by that I mean that first of all I pour the water into the font as splashily as possible. If there is an older brother or sister, I often get them to do this. And then I when I baptise, I scoop the water over the baby's head with my hand three times, splashing all the way.

This isn't particularly traditional with us. If anything, the tradition is three tiny little dabs of water on the baby's forehead. But I personally contend that the splashiness is a better symbol of the living water and the glorious messiness of God's grace, so I just go for it.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
The very first question to the parents is always "Do you desire that this child be baptised?"
And yeah, they wouldn't be there if they didn't, but you still need to ask and receive an answer before proceeding further.
It is the first step to their statement of committment.

In the CofE, that question is a recent addition having been introduced in Common Worship. Presumably baptisms from the various authorised liturgies before CW were still valid, even without asking the question!

Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :

1662: (penultimate question before blessing the water) Wilt thou be baptized in this faith?
Answer: That is my desire.

Posted by Perkin (# 16928) on :

Do godparents or sponsors not feature in the Scoto Catholic rite?

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

No, for specific reasons which are noted in the Service Book. The Congregation undertakes the role of Sponsor, that is why they make the Congregational Commitment. Sponsor may be present at the parents request but are in no way required, most babies at our church don't have them.

The Council/Session presents the candidates for baptism and endorses the action by a vote for presentation and the congregation makes the commitment to raise the child in the Christian faith.

It may be our Congregationalist heritage showing through.

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

That's not just Congregationalism: we don't do sponsors or godparents in the Kirk either. At least, not officially.

However, most parents ask one or two people to be godparents, and they stand up at the front with the parents. This isn't really a religious role, although the individuals concerned can choose to make it religious. The godparents aren't even acknowledged in the service, although many ministers will include a promise for them as well, along the lines of promising to support the parents as they bring up the child. Other ministers will ignore these extra adults entirely!

In the old days, the chief role of the godparent (at least in Scotland - don't know about elsewhere) was to be the child's legal guardian in the event of the death of the parents. For this reason, godparents were usually an aunt or uncle. I am also wondering if this might be connected to the old feudal system of a special tie between a man and his sister's son. But basically, a godparent up here is traditionally more of a societal role than a religious one.

Having said all that, I myself am godparent to three, and it is a role that I take very seriously.

Posted by The Royal Spaniel (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lots of Reformed minister wear stoles these days.

As for Fr. Seasick being right, he usually is.

Don't encourage him!! [Big Grin]

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lots of Reformed minister wear stoles these days.

As for Fr. Seasick being right, he usually is.

The minister comes from the Rev. Lovejoy school of tat: one gown, one stole. There are tons more like him around the UCCan.

He'd love to have a pulpit fitted with noisemakers thought he prefers to walk around when preaching.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

We had a (Presy) baptism this morning and although I couldn't quote the exact words, somewhat less traditional that SPK's though I recognise the minister's words to the child, it does follow the same framework. Yes, we sang the Aaronic blessing and the child is walked through the church, though this time the one-year-old kid was handed to Dad, who accompanied the minister on the walk. She was a very wriggly child except when the minister was holding her, when she was quite still, focussed on the minister's face, and didn't mind when water was poured on her head.

Interesting that the Creed we recited as a congregation was not the Apostles' Creed but that of the United Church or Canada.

We give the parents a candle and baptismal certificate, and the Sunday School kids make a decorated card.

Our late friend, elderly bachelor Odd Bod, would always pop up and give the child a gold coin, which he said was a Scottish custom (can any Scots confirm?) so someone did this today: it had become a tradition so why not carry it on?

GG

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

In a fit of liturgical enthusiasm, and for the purposes of comparison, I have dug out my Common Order, not only from 1994, but also from 1979. And most edifying it has been.

The older version is a simpler, more compact liturgy. Here, the parents' confession and promise go thusly:

quote:
Do you present this child to be baptized, earnestly desiring that s/he may be grafted into Christ as a member of his body the Church?
Response: I do

Do you believe in one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and do you confess Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Lord?
Response: I do

Do you promise, depending on the grace of God, to teach this child the truths and duties of the Christian faith; and by prayer and example to bring him/her up in the life and worship of the Church?
Response: I do

The more modern liturgy is less compact, and frankly, if you follow it to the letter, is much too long. But it does have some lovely touches.

Here the parents' confession of faith is separated out from their promises. The Confession is made before the baptism, and goes thusly:

quote:
In presenting your child for baptism, desiring that s/he may be grafted into Christ as a member of his body, the Church,
do you receive the teaching of the Christian faith which we confess in the Apostles' Creed?
Response: I do

Then after the baptism, the Promises are made:

quote:
Your child belongs to God in Christ.
From this day s/he will be at home in the Christian community,
and there will always be a place for her.
Tell her of her baptism,
and unfold to her the treasure she has been given today,
so that s/he may know she is baptized and, as s/he grows,
make her own response in faith and love,
and come in due time to share in the communion of the body and blood of Christ.

Do you promise, depending on the grace of God,
to teach your child the truths and duties of the Christian faith;
and by prayer and example to bring her up in the life and worship of the Church?
Response: I do

The Declaration, which I think comes from the French Reformed tradition, is said just before the baptism. Our version goes thusly:

quote:
Mary Jane Smith,
for you Jesus Christ came into the world:
for you he lived and showed God's love;
for you he suffered the darkness of Calvary
and cried at the last, 'It is accomplished';
for you he triumphed over death and rose in newness of life;
for you he ascended to reign at God's right hand.
All this he did for you, Mary, though you do not know it yet.
And so the word of Scripture is fulfilled:
'We love because God first loved us.'

I think in future for my own usage, I will be returning to the 1979 version for structure, but with bits of the more modern one cut and pasted in. Having the promises after the baptism, for example, fits a whole lot better with my theology. But the older liturgy is a lot less wordy and more usable as part of one-hour morning service.

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

Btw, Sober Preacher's Kid, this thread title has cleared up one mystery for me. I now know that you are the Kid of a Sober Preacher, and not the Sober Kid of a Preacher.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

GG - it is certainly a common enough Scottish custom to give a child a silver or gold (looking) coin when one sees the child for the first time - not necessarily at the child's baptism.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

To that end I have a collection of Silver Canadian Dollars and 50-cent pieces, given to me by a small church on my parents seven-point Pastoral Charge in New Brunswick. That church held tenaciously to its Scottish roots.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

My niece will be receiving a Canadian coin set I just purchased from the Post Office. This will be one of last to include the Penny as that coin is to be retired from circulation.

I couldn't afford an actual silver coin, those start at $60+. Surely it's Scots to be frugal?

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

The Baptism went off as planned. We had four babies being baptized that day; the church was full and the organist and minister were delighted.

Canadian Anglicans will get a chuckle out of the sight of a United Church of Canada congregation reciting the Nicene Creed in full during public worship.

Ma Preacher, she of discerning tastes, was satisfied with the service. Ministers worship at other people's services like doctors make other's patients: they don't do it really well. But I sent her a copy of the service beforehand for her comment so we felt "consulted".

I was the Clerk of Session for the event (we have three people in our congregation who have that power, we put the office "in commission" during our recent reorganization) so I did the presentation and also got to sign my niece's baptismal certificate.

This thread should be cross-listed with the Anglo-Methodist Thread.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The Baptism went off as planned. We had four babies being baptized that day; the church was full and the organist and minister were delighted.

Canadian Anglicans will get a chuckle out of the sight of a United Church of Canada congregation reciting the Nicene Creed in full during public worship.

I'm a cradle Anglican despite attending what was then a Presbyterian (and is now a Uniting Church) school in days when such things mattered . I can't understand the second paragraph and ask that you explain please.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Sounds like you had the baptism on the same day that Grandchorister was baptised (in Llandaff Cathedral). Obviously a good day for baptisms, there were 4 in my home church as well.

Grandchorister's parents had to declare (in what I presume is standard Church in Wales Liturgy) that they will bring her up in the faith, bringing her to confirmation, and teach her the Lord's prayer, commandments, creed and the catechism. I was quite surprised at the catechism part - I remember studying the catechism before being confirmed but didn't think it was still done in the Anglican church. And I've certainly never heard it mentioned in a baptism service elsewhere.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The Baptism went off as planned. We had four babies being baptized that day; the church was full and the organist and minister were delighted.

Canadian Anglicans will get a chuckle out of the sight of a United Church of Canada congregation reciting the Nicene Creed in full during public worship.

I'm a cradle Anglican despite attending what was then a Presbyterian (and is now a Uniting Church) school in days when such things mattered . I can't understand the second paragraph and ask that you explain please.

The United Church of Canada has the reputation of being extremely (to the point of wacky) liberal and having a significant wing that doesn't do doctrine, can't stand creeds and is given to things others might call heresy. The group of people for whom the next stop is the Unitarian Universalists.

Consequently we have the image of being doctrinally lax and theologically mushy. It didn't help that we had a Moderator fifteen years ago who did, in fact, spout heresy about the non-divinity of Christ.

There are two "parties" in the United Church, the Rads (the aforementioned group) and the Trads (the Scoto-Catholics, the Anglo-Methodists, the young fogies, the old curmudgeons, and me).

The United Church came up with a Statement of Faith called "A New Creed" in the 1960's and the Apostle's Creed and Nicene Creed have fallen out of use in services in many places unless you're a Trad like me and do something to reverse it.

Some see the United Church as Harry Halfwit's House of Heresy. I don't, but given that I hang around Eccles I'm not normal anyway.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
given that I hang around Eccles I'm not normal anyway.

Speaking as an inhabitant of the county that gave rise to the phrase "normal for Norfolk" with its connotations of inbreeding (I'm only half-Norfolk - I think it's my right side, as it seems decidedly defective), I'm not sure normal is a category to aspire to. And as for being normal for Eccles....... *shudder*

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thanks SPK, that explains in clearly. The Unitng Church here has much the same image. In fact a friend says she likes the sermons at her local Uniting Church as they don't make her think. Pehaps the lack of a strong theology is attributable to a wish to ensure that what is said offends no-one.

The new generation of ministers is of those who were born into the Uniting Church rather than of one of the constituents. That may result a Uniting Church position of some greater definition than now.

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