Ship of Fools: Aff Cath type churches in London

Thread: Aff Cath type churches in London Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=022372

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

My cousin is coming over from Canada for a couple of weeks, and she wants me to find a C of E London church for her to worship at on the two Sundays she's here. She says she likes a bit of ritual and ceremony, perhaps with incense and bells, but she, as an ardent feminist, will have nothing to do with FiF, or anyone who objects to women priests. As I've been out of the C of E mainstream scene for several years, does anyone know if such a church exists? I suppose I've always thought of churches which use bells and smells as high, and therefore more likely to be FiF. As a former FiF member, I could take her to many of those, but it isn't what she wants.

She would prefer a MOTR church without much ceremony to one which objects to women priests. Again that would be easy to find. But there must be Aff Cath type churches who embrace both a certain element of catholic worship and women on the team. Any ideas?

Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on :

St Mary Stoke Newington would seem to fit the bill. The last rector is the Chair of AffCath. In interregnum now, the curate is a woman.

Not entirely convenient to get to mind you.

Posted by The Royal Spaniel (# 40) on :

Try this one, Paul

St.Pancras Church

It's quite a nice church - don't think they have incense, but the last time I went things were 'done decently and in order'

I think Choral Evensong is 1662 whilst the Choral Eucharist is Common Worship - modern language rite
They also seem to have an active music programme
It's close to Euston Station I think rather than St.Pancras
I'm not in London very often but whenever I've gone I tend to wind up going there - possibly because I tend to get a hotel in the Bloomsbury area anyway
And it's a lot more friendly than the cathedrals I feel

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

St James, Sussex Gardens, Paddington?
Or less central (geographically speaking), St Mary's Primrose Hill?
Plenty of choice south of the river: Southwark Cathedral might fit the bill (it's friendly enough to be more parish-church-like than cathedral-like)

[ 08. April 2012, 21:55: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

I would agree that Southwark Cathedral is a good choice, but where are you? There are lots of churches well high up the candle that are inclusive, even if they don't currently have female clergy on board.

St Mary Abbots Kensington or St Paul's Knightsbridge could fit the bill, or if you are indeed south of the river, St John the Divine Kennington.

St Matthew's Westminster does a good line in bells and smells, and is a lovely little church. St Dunstan's Stepney is fabulous, as is St Dunstan-in-the-West on Fleet Street.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

St John's Wood Church is very nice and fairly central. Good music, decent liturgy, good preaching, and a lovely congo.
St Mary the Virgin Primrose Hill should be good (great tradition: I think it is Sarum Sleuth's old haunt) but the preaching tends to be very, very dull.
St James's Picadilly now has the intensely fragrant Lucy Winkett as Vicar, and so should be a good bet. St James's is more liberal than a liberal thing, but LW has a level head and good liturgical grounding.
St James Sussex Gardens has an AffCaff congo but, since last summer, a FiF priest, which is an interesting combination. Londin had to find a place for him after the sterling work he did as curate at St Marylebone, and so plopped him into St James's to the consternation of the folks there. A certain amount of cognitive dissonance has followed.

[ 08. April 2012, 23:01: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Deputy Verger--sorry to double-post, but by what criteria do you say St John the Divine Kennington is inclusive? Because they occasionally have a female subdeacon? They're a lovely church; the congregation is warm, socially engaged and devoutly Catholic; the liturgy and music are good, the building is splendid---but women know their place there and teh gayz are firmly closeted.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

St Thomas, Finsbury Park isn't Aff Cath, but the vicar is the most out gay on General Synod.

Plenty of smoke, no choir, very right on credentials but old fashioned ceremonial.

It had a woman NSM in it time, but not big enough to run to a curate.

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

quote:
Amos asked:
Deputy Verger--sorry to double-post, but by what criteria do you say St John the Divine Kennington is inclusive? Because they occasionally have a female subdeacon? They're a lovely church; the congregation is warm, socially engaged and devoutly Catholic; the liturgy and music are good, the building is splendid---but women know their place there and teh gayz are firmly closeted.

To answer your first question, because they use the word "inclusive" in their mission statement, and because they are not FiF, which was the central criterion of the OP.

I recommended the church for all the reasons you list in the middle of your post. I love it.

And you must have your own reasons for your last comment, but it is not my experience. I would have said teh gayz wuz very visible. I have heard Jeffrey John preach there.

Even if it were politically toxic, which I don't think it is, I would still recommend it to a visitor for the experience of standing at the Kelham Rood alone.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Let's not forget St Mary, Newington near the Elephant & Castle (not to be confused with St Mary,Stoke Newington already mentioned on this thread). They are pretty high up the candle liturgically and also very inclusive.

Dr Giles Fraser has just been appointed Vicar there

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

Maybe this one, St John's Hyde Park would also be liked - just along from St James, and they both share the same Primary Christian School.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

How about St Marylebone Church? Good ceremonial, a very fine choir (2 anthems most Sundays), intelligent preaching, a beautiful building and a welcoming congregation. No bells or smells, but eastward-facing CW traditional language.

St Bride's Fleet Street is perhaps slightly lower but fairly MOR - the choir here too is very good.

Two other possibilities (but possibly a bit too high up the candle?) are St Paul's Knightsbridge and St Peter's Eaton Square - both have fine music and are signed up to inclusive church.

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

I would like to thank you all for your suggestions. It's not until June that she's coming over, so I will check out all the websites of the suggested churches, perhaps pop in when they are open in the daytime to soak in the atmosphere, and then decide where to take her. In the early 90's when I was beginning to reconnect with Christianity after more than 20 years, I often visited Southwark Cathedral. I loved to pray in the Harvard Chapel for half an hour before the service, and call to mind my sins. It had a lovely atmosphere back then, but it's years since I was there.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
...does anyone know if such a church exists?

Exists? Here in the Diocese of Southwark its more or less the default kind of parish. Maybe even the majority of parishes in some areas.

Come over to the friendly side of the river!

As others said, Southwark Cathedral fits your bill, and it is very easy to get to by public transport. But there are probably literally dozens of parishes in South London of the same tendency. Spike or Angloid are more likely to know which is which than I am though, being more nearly of that persuasion themselves.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Having nothing better to do at the moment, I've risen to ken's challenge. My knowledge of Southwark diocese is [a] over ten years out of date (with a couple of exceptions) and [b] mostly confined to the Kingston area and not all of that. Ken is much more au fait with the south-eastern (Woolwich) area, and of course is still there. But for what it's worth, I've just trawled the diocesan website and the following parishes stand out on the OP's criteria. Many of them have women incumbents but all AFAIK (unless the regime has radically changed) are in favour of OoW and inclusive in other ways too, and most are liturgically fairly well up the candle. I've only included those reasonably close to central London.

In no particular order:
Battersea St Luke (nearer Clapham South than B'sea)
Battersea St Mary
Battersea All Saints
Streatham Christ Church
Balham St Mary
Dulwich St Clement
Dulwich St Faith
Southwark Cathedral
Newington St Mary (Elephant and Castle: Giles Fraser becomes parish priest this month)
Wandsworth St Anne
Southfields St Barnabas
Putney St Mary (Giles Fraser's former parish)
Clapham Christ Church
Clapham St Paul

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Deputy Verger:
St Dunstan-in-the-West on Fleet Street.

But only attend there on Sunday morning if you are Romanian Orthodox.

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

That's true, Venbede - sorry I didn't think of that. I've been there twice this year, but both were special services (a wedding and the dedication of their new bells) - never on a Sunday, of course.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I've been there on a Sunday. Absolutely packed. A health and safety nightmare.

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

Why has no one mentioned St Matthew's Westminster?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

They have: Deputy Verger above.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I remember going to a service at St. Matthew's, Westminster, shortly after the post-fire rebuild (Cardinal Hume preached). Indeed, I worked near the church at the time, and recall seeing the flames shooting up from the burning building.....

It is indeed a lovely little church, and I would recommend it, if for no other reason that our priest-in-charge, other Reader and Sacristan were acutely discombobulated one day by attending a midday Mass there and being confronted by a Woman Priest..... [Devil]

Ian J.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

It is indeed a lovely little church, and I would recommend it, if for no other reason that our priest-in-charge, other Reader and Sacristan were acutely discombobulated one day by attending a midday Mass there and being confronted by a Woman Priest.....

Ian J.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

If she's in the City at lunchtimes then try St Mary le Bow. Don't be put off by the fact that the rector is called George Bush - this church is the home of JustShare, the ultimately futile attempt to engage the City folk with social justice issues. But they put on some excellent events for anyone who will listen - which seldom includes any City workers.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

St Botolph's has a woman rector and a reputation. (Lots of yuppies and their kids on Sunday now.)

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
St Botolph's has a woman rector and a reputation. (Lots of yuppies and their kids on Sunday now.)

Which St Botolph's?

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Having nothing better to do at the moment, I've risen to ken's challenge. My knowledge of Southwark diocese is [a] over ten years out of date (with a couple of exceptions) and [b] mostly confined to the Kingston area and not all of that. Ken is much more au fait with the south-eastern (Woolwich) area, and of course is still there.

Allow me to fill the gap with the Croydon area then. Pretty much any church in the northern part (i.e Croydon & Sutton) will fit the bill. The places I know fairly well are

Croydon Minster
Holy Innocents, South Norwood
St John, Upper Norwood
St Alban's, South Norwood
Holy Saviour, West Croydon
St Luke, Woodside
St Stephen's, Thornton Heath
All Saints, Upper Norwood

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
St Thomas, Finsbury Park isn't Aff Cath, but the vicar is the most out gay on General Synod.

Plenty of smoke, no choir, very right on credentials but old fashioned ceremonial.

It had a woman NSM in it time, but not big enough to run to a curate.

This is my shack - actually we do now have a woman who is to be ordained priest in the summer (and with a new organist on the rota we've set up a small singing group). You're most welcome to visit!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
If she's in the City at lunchtimes then try St Mary le Bow. Don't be put off by the fact that the rector is called George Bush - this church is the home of JustShare, the ultimately futile attempt to engage the City folk with social justice issues. But they put on some excellent events for anyone who will listen - which seldom includes any City workers.

George is great. He used to be a curate of my old church, St. Aidan's Leeds, a 'slum anglo (affirming) catholic' parish.

Posted by Bax (# 16572) on :

Its a bit of a trek from Central London, but I don't think anyone has mentioned All Hallows Twickenham.

http://www.allhallowstwick.org.uk/

Posted by Laurence (# 9135) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
Its a bit of a trek from Central London, but I don't think anyone has mentioned All Hallows Twickenham.

http://www.allhallowstwick.org.uk/

A fine building with a remarkably mobile history!
I'd fly the flag for the parish next door, a mile or two down the A316- St Augustine's Whitton. Both genders of clergy, chasubles, incense on major (and not so major) feasts, occasional Latin sung by the choir. It's gone down the candle abit since the 1990s- the main Sunday service is now described as "Parish Communion" on the website rather than "Parish Mass"- but it's still a very Novus Ordo-feeling liturgy (including the "Deliver us, Lord, from every evil" at the end of the Lord's prayer).

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

My reading of the OP was that PaulTH's cousin didn't wish to attend a church where women clergy weren't welcome and/or recognized.

Lots of lovely churches have been recommended. Many of them have gay clergy, in or out of the closet. Not a lot of them, however, have, or would have, female clergy. St John the Divine Kennington is one of them. Having the Dean of St Albans to preach is certainly one sign of being inclusive--but there are others rather closer to home.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

St Mary le Bow has been mentioned. Lovely place, but no Sunday services.

Posted by Ashworth (# 12645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Deputy Verger--sorry to double-post, but by what criteria do you say St John the Divine Kennington is inclusive? Because they occasionally have a female subdeacon? They're a lovely church; the congregation is warm, socially engaged and devoutly Catholic; the liturgy and music are good, the building is splendid---but women know their place there and teh gayz are firmly closeted.

I've never really been quite sure where St. John the Divine, Kennington, sits on the Aff Cath - FinF scale.
As a member of FinF I was always very happy to worship there during Fr Bradshaws time and I actually prefered it to most of the London FinF churches. I loved the mixture of beautiful building, lovely music and catholic ceremonial with a hint of friendly informality. There was a great mixture of formal choral music with congregational singing. Also a mixture of traditional music and modern worship songs. A church I loved to visit when in London.

I haven't visited since the current incumbent has been there because from the website it appears that the church has gone in a more aff cath direction and the worship appears to have gone a little more formal and choral. I may be wrong. I would love to visit again when I'm next in London, but I wouldn't want it to have changed so much that I would be disappointed.

[ 18. April 2012, 21:28: Message edited by: Ashworth ]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I think you'd still find much of what you loved there, Ashworth, and nothing to distress you.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0