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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Liturgy at the King's Weigh House
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scribbler
Shipmate
# 12268
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Posted
A while ago, a purchased a copy of W.E. Orchard's "Order of Divine Service." Orchard was a Congregationalist minister at the King's Weigh House Church in London in the first quarter of the 20th century. He later became a Roman Catholic priest, but that was after receiving orders through the vagante-ish Order of Corporate Reunion.
His love of liturgy is clear from this work, which includes a host of orders of service drawings BCP , Roman and Orthodox material. It is described wellhere (by a shipmate I believe)about 60% of the way down the page.
I am curious if anyone knows what the worship at King's Weigh House was actually like under Orchard's charge. How far up the candle was his group of London Congregationalists in the teens and twenties willing to go?
[ 21. April 2012, 22:05: Message edited by: scribbler ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Metapelagius and/or Jengie - we have need of you!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Dr Orchard crops up in Peter Anson's Bishops at Large and I believe eventually got ordained by a roving bishop to get "real" orders.
They had Benediction, which would have given MOTR Anglican bishops a stroke in the 30s, let alone any Congregationalists.
It is now the cathedral of the Holy Family in Exile for the Ukranian Catholics, ie Orthodox in communion with Rome. The only Eastern rite place I've seen with a confessional box.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I've not done any reading on the Order of Corporate Reunion for decades now, but actually had recent occasion to think of this shadowy project. I wonder if there has been any further research on its membership, ordinands and activities since stuff that was published back in the 1960s. Anyone know of any good online information about it?
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
You might like this paper. Somewhere on the web I believe there is a description of worship, I think there was a distinct change at the point of communion. However a long description of worship development under Orchard at Kings Weigh House cane be found in "Worship and Theology in England: The Ecumenical Century, 1900 to the Present" by Horton Davies in the section on Free Catholicism. I will check with my main source on liturgical archaism within English Non-Conformity later but that should be a start.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
...It is now the cathedral of the Holy Family in Exile for the Ukranian Catholics, ie Orthodox in communion with Rome.
...and doubtless a good deal lower-church than it was in Dr Orchard's day!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Like most anglo-catholics! (except the poker-up-the-arse ones)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
No he was definitely AffCaff* and a pacifist to boot!
Jengie
*He ordained Constance Coltman first women ordained to a Trinitarian denomination in England as her first appointment was working with him!
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
Ah yes, the fascinating Dr Orchard. His name crops up in these parts every now and then. Last time around it was on the Presbyterian Diaconal tat thread (not that there really is any such thing) - probably now in Oblivion, even though it can be only three months old.
Orchard himself explains the rationale of his ritualistic practices if not an exact description of them in his autobiography 'From Faith to Faith' - in particular p. 135 ff. More detail of his services may be found in Kaye and Makenzie's 'WE Orchard a study in Christian Exploration, p. 82ff. There is also some discussion of the topic in Kaye's 'History of the King's Weigh House', including a description of benediction (p. 129).
What is really needed is a Mystery Worshipper with access to a time machine ... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
Apologies for double posting, but Scribbler is incorrect in descibing Dr Orchard as a congregationalist minister. Yes, the King's Weigh House was a congregationalist chapel, but Orchard himself was a Presbyterian. It does look as if Presbyterian clergy, if they do go off the rails, tend to do it in spades - witness Edward Irving and the emergence of the Catholic Apostolics.
[ 22. April 2012, 18:16: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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scribbler
Shipmate
# 12268
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Posted
Presbyterian point duly noted, Metapelagius. Thank you for that and also to everyone who has responded.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
You can still be bonkers and on the side of the angels.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
Uniates are not "Orthodox in communion with Rome". They are Eastern rite RCs. (They may think themselves Orthodox - they are mistaken.)
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
Uniates are not "Orthodox in communion with Rome". They are Eastern rite RCs. (They may think themselves Orthodox - they are mistaken.)
You are the one who is mistaken; they are not Roman Catholics. Roman or Latin serves no purpose as an adjective to Catholic bar describing Rite.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
Uniates are not "Orthodox in communion with Rome". They are Eastern rite RCs. (They may think themselves Orthodox - they are mistaken.)
You are the one who is mistaken; they are not Roman Catholics. Roman or Latin serves no purpose as an adjective to Catholic bar describing Rite.
It's true that they're Ukrainian (Greek) Catholics and not Roman Catholics but I think that otyetsfoma's main point that they aren't Orthodox still stands. Of course, they're also properly referred to as Uniates, which is how Ukrainian Catholics with whom I correspond regularly and casually refer to themselves. I asked one of their priests when I heard him use it about the claim made on these boards that it is an offensive term and he told me it was nonsense.
[ 24. April 2012, 16:49: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Discussions about who is or is not Orthodox, Catholic, whatever and the use of the term Uniate belong in Purgatory. This thread is about liturgy in the establishment mentioned in the OP.
Thank you for your cooperation.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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