Thread: Wee cuppies with a twist Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 
We made a service call to a Methodist church today (the tuba was cyphering). In the narthex, we found a basket of these. The sign on the basket said "BLESSED ELEMENTS ALL ARE WELCOME TO PARTAKE".

I pass through a wide variety of churches in my work, and I really do work hard not to be judgmental--I am in THEIR place of worship, after all, and their money is paying my wages at that particular moment. Still, I couldn't decide if I was most horrified at the trivialization of Communion or by the sheer tackiness of placing elements in something that looked like a container of half-and-half.

I've known of one or two RCC parishes in the US set up with a nun as an administrator, who will be authorized to distribute the sacrament from the reserve--usually supplied by the priest of a neighboring parish. I've wondered if the increasingly dire shortage of priests might require them at some point to set up some sort of "Blessed Sacrament Factory", but I know they would still be very careful about where it went and how it was used.

Blessing a bunch of these and leaving them in a basket seems like a bad idea. I think most Methodists wouldn't be particularly happy about it, either, but I don't have the exposure to Methodists I used to have.

At any rate, I'm interested in the reflections of other Shipmates--especially any who might admit to having seen or used these.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I suppose as a method of disposal or extra items that otherwise would be thrown out, it might be seen as reverential disposal of the gifts. As a form of communion and as someone instinctively Reformed, I want to say the sacraments take place within the Church, and where is the Church in such a celebration. The old objection of the Reformed churches to private communions.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Never seen it, but as an avid Wee Cuppie enthusiast I am opposed to the concept.

It is in discord with the doctrine that one must make a Confession of Sin (general is allowed) and receive Parson for the same before receiving Communion. That is the traditional line though it is becoming unpopular.

It is however a trend towards a "Universalist" approach to communion wherein all may receive and the Elements are "Means of Grace". That sort of theology is very popular in the United Church of Canada right now. There is a Doctrinal Remit about submitted to Sessions that expresses just that theology, which I voted against.

Were the pre-packaged Wee Cuppies contained in a Wicker Tabernacle, er, Basket?
 

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Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
NO , just no. I kind of recoil in instinctive horror from this....
 

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Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 
As I've tried to wrap my head around it a bit more, and as I've read the website, I can see that this might be very useful for one of those megachurches which has an average Sunday attendance of 3000 or more.

Even then, I would hope they were blessed as PART of the worship service. As most of those places are strict memorialists, I'm sure the leftovers would just go back in the refrigerator until next time (taking note of the stamped-on expiration date and making certain the stock was rotated, one hopes).

An attendance of 3000 is not something this church would have to worry about--they are a medium suburban church which probably runs between 200-300 on a Sunday (I don't really know-that's just a guess based on the size of the staff).
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
I'm fairly sure we've done these already. Wasn't it something to do with bikers receiving communion "on the go" from these things? At least I think it was the Ship. I can't think of any of my other regular haunts where this would come up.
 

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Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Were the pre-packaged Wee Cuppies contained in a Wicker Tabernacle, er, Basket?

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Why, it's almost as if you were there!

 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
All you need is those artificial candles that run on batteries with switches on the bottom and a poster of Jesus with the slogan "Do this in Remembrance of Me" and this the setup would be complete.
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I'm fairly sure we've done these already. Wasn't it something to do with bikers receiving communion "on the go" from these things? At least I think it was the Ship. I can't think of any of my other regular haunts where this would come up.

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Did they not come up on an Orthodox discussion forum?

I'm entirely opposed to these things in all circumstances. I'm positively horrified at the suggestion one might have consecrated elements left lying around like a plate of biscuits. I have heard of UMCs doing "communion to go" on Christmas Eve where worshippers come and help themselves to consecrated elements at some point on the day that suits their other, presumably more pressing, needs.
 

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Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 
I've been at a communion service that used them. They were lined up on the communion table and before that part of the service began, everyone was invited up to get one. It was a mixed group, not one denomination, and was done at a retreat centre. I'm not sure what others thought of it. I stayed in my seat.
 

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Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
I can only imagine those pre-packaged communion kits being used by memorialists. If you believe the elements when blessed are the Body and Blood of Christ, or in any way carry the Real Presence, then you wouldn't use disposable containers, I would think. In a culture where people so often eat a snack and toss the wrapper on the ground, I can't imagine anyone reverently ensuring the container was cleaned (i.e., doing ablutions) before throwing it away. I should hope at least people would consume the "blessed elements" right there in the church and there would be a container for the wrappers.

This church probably is trying to be welcoming and to extend its blessing as far as possible into the community. IMO, they should bless something else for people to take. It could even be some other form of food, or something people could keep. Blessed votive candles could be a nice gift.

Even if a church welcomes everyone to receive Communion, that normally only happens in the context of the service, where the worshiper must join the community in some fashion, participate in the service, including the prayers, the proclamation of the Gospel, and the confession of sin and absolution.

[ 15. March 2012, 21:52: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
 

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Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 

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Originally posted by Organ Builder:

...
In the narthex, we found a basket of these. The sign on the basket said "BLESSED ELEMENTS ALL ARE WELCOME TO PARTAKE".
...

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• consecrated and there for anyone passing by to help themselves?

• there ready for a service where people intending to take communion would take one into the service so the right number would be consecrated - and a note to let visitors to the service know that it's an open table (written by someone who decided Blessed Elements was a respectful way of referring to them)?

 

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Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 
Ann, that's hard to know--because we were there to work on the organ and there was no service taking place. It's possible this church does a mid-week service on Thursday night, but Wednesday night is the norm in this city.

My assumption, based on some experience with southern Methodists, is that "blessed" would only be used if they had been prayed over. Southerners would easily ask "Has the food been blessed?" if they came in late to a meal (or at least, protestant southerners of my parents' generation would). So I can't say with certainty, but the sign gave me the impression that these were indeed consecrated.
 

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Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :
 
I've actually been at a service that used these—but, as always, there were extenuating circumstances. Not only was the show being run by strict memorialists, but also outdoors, in the rain, at a national Boy Scout event. To have prepackaged, water- and dirtproof elements to distribute to people with hands of questionable cleanliness was the Right Idea at the time.

Could I see them being used as part of a regular worship service in a church building? Oh, of course not. But for people away from civilization, running water, and sanitation (backpackers, soldiers, missionaries, etc.), it's a workable solution.
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Several years ago the company that makes them sent samples (and ordering information) to the Episcopal church where I work. They could have saved themselves a lot of money if they'd researched which denominations might have been a market for them.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
I believe Chicago's flagship Methodist church does this on occasion. It is located in the business part of the city, and I believe they offer it from 7:30 to 9am or so as a walk-in communion for business people heading to work.
 

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Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
I've been in a church that used these. They needed to communicate a lot of people in a short amount of time. You proceeded up front, collected your juice box, went back to your seat, and waited for your cue to communicate together.

Mostly what I remember from those services is that unmistakable sound of ripping crumpling plastic after the presiding minister said, "This is my body".

(Mind you, this is also the church that had me escorted out by security when they decided I didn't fit in with their idea of holy... not sure how they figured it out before I did, but I was young and stupid.)

I've got all sorts of eyebrows raised at if these were blessed and then just left out for people to take, memorialist or not. I also wonder if anyone actually dares to, or if the person who had this bright idea stands over the basket sighing, shaking their head, wondering why it's always full.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
But, but, but, Wee Cuppies are supposed to be passed around in trays! There is no need for plastic pre-packaging!

I assure you the blast radius of the consecration encompasses the entire church.


 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Spiffy:

quote:

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(Mind you, this is also the church that had me escorted out by security when they decided I didn't fit in with their idea of holy... not sure how they figured it out before I did, but I was young and stupid.)

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God was looking out for you; praise her in her merciful goodness!
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 

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Originally posted by seasick:

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I'm fairly sure we've done these already. Wasn't it something to do with bikers receiving communion "on the go" from these things? At least I think it was the Ship. I can't think of any of my other regular haunts where this would come up.

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Did they not come up on an Orthodox discussion forum?

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Are you trying to bring about the Parousia? Or worse yet, the wrath of the babuskhas?

There's a question to be asked, I'm sure, about the state of affairs in 19th-century Russia.

Needless to say what seems like a badly thought out MacDonald's gimmick ("Do you want communion with that?") has not come up for discussion on an Orthodox forum, to my knowledge.

However, what has come up is the use of pre-cut cubes of bread in Byzantine Catholic churches in order to eliminate (at least most of) the rite of preparation. More on that here.

Leaving aside the propriety of this kind of thing, what does surprise me is the use of these packets in a Methodist church. My experience of Methodist communion is not extensive but on the four or five occasions I have witnessed it, the bread has always been leavened, as is right and proper. Is unleavened bread a permitted alternative, even if not a widely used one?

[ 16. March 2012, 08:41: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Unleavened bread is acceptable but uncommon in Methodist Churches in the UK. IME it's much more common, but not universal, in Methodist Churches in the US.
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
Thank you for that. It explains why I haven't encountered it.
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I've also seen these - at a conference with over 5000 people in attendance.

I'm not a huge fan, but they are about the most practical solution you can come up with for a very big crowd.
 

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Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :
 
It may horrify Michael to know that I have heard of one of the smaller jurisdiction orthodox churches using "wee cuppies" - not (of course) for communion, but for the post communion "pivka".
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I'm fairly sure we've done these already. Wasn't it something to do with bikers receiving communion "on the go" from these things? At least I think it was the Ship. I can't think of any of my other regular haunts where this would come up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I've also seen these - at a conference with over 5000 people in attendance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
It may horrify Michael to know that I have heard of one of the smaller jurisdiction orthodox churches using "wee cuppies" - not (of course) for communion, but for the post communion "pivka".

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Oh, Father Thomas, I'm made of tougher stuff than that.

Wee cuppies for the zapivka doesn't bother me too much. It seems little different from the common practice of using individual porringers, (although I suppose these do get refilled and re-used in a way that the little cups do not).
 

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Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 

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Originally posted by Organ Builder:

quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I've also seen these - at a conference with over 5000 people in attendance.

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This would actually make a lot of sense to me (for those groups that use grape juice--as far as I know, no one is making these with wine).

So I can see there would be times these would serve a purpose--but not the circumstances in which I found them

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Yes, I was bored. This bunch does seem to make them with wine.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Last night, I prowled the site from the OP.

I love liturgical Eucharist, and I also grew up in a memorialist, wee cuppie church. (Grape juice and bits of cracker.)

While pre-packaged elements might be a tiny bit tacky, they could also be very helpful for the kind of small church that I went to. There'd be no wasted leftovers (which, in a memorialist church, are simply disposed of). The cups and packaging are recyclable, so there's no need to wash all those wee cuppies. The packages would be handy for taking communion to shut-ins. They'd also be handy for a home church, retreats, etc.

I do wonder if the container would affect the taste of the juice, and if a church would have to buy new communion trays to hold the pre-packaged cups. (Yes, you could put them in a help-yourself basket; but, at my old church, it was meaningful for the ushers to pass the trays around, and for everyone to then drink together.)

I notice that the company has wafers that actually seem bread-like, rather than the "styrofoam" wafers used in some churches. And they even have gluten-free wafers! (Though not in the juice/wafer packs.)
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
One of our churches does alternative worship and it often involves various prayer stations. I understand that they sometimes have a communion station - if an individual wants to receive, as part of the choices they make as to where to linger, then consecrated bread and wine on on a table. I have no idea whether it is in a chalice but i do know that the nearby baptist church has copied this idea and uses little cups.
 

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Posted by danatanseo (# 16992) on :
 
I have to say that as a lifelong Episcopalian [yep, that means I am one of God's "frozen chosen" ] - I have to admit I thought prefilled communion cups with wafers were kitschy. However, 4 years ago I was hired by a company to build a Web site that sold these as a niche product. Honestly, I never thought it would fly. 6 million dollars in sales later, I viewed them differently.

One of the comments above pointed out how these prepackaged communion cups and bread actually were a good thing for Christian wanting to celebrate a Eucharist in places where sanitation and clean water are a problem. By all accounts, that's a very large portion of the world. Okay, so maybe it's different than the stuffy dignity to which I am accustomed in the Anglican tradition....but maybe we all need to loosen up a little and understand that communion supplies that allow marginalized people to share the Lord's supper are a good thing.

[ 17. March 2012, 18:04: Message edited by: danatanseo ]
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by danatanseo:
One of the comments above pointed out how these prepackaged communion cups and bread actually were a good thing for Christian wanting to celebrate a Eucharist in places where sanitation and clean water are a problem. By all accounts, that's a very large portion of the world. Okay, so maybe it's different than the stuffy dignity to which I am accustomed in the Anglican tradition....but maybe we all need to loosen up a little and understand that communion supplies that allow marginalized people to share the Lord's supper are a good thing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I've also seen these - at a conference with over 5000 people in attendance.

I'm not a huge fan, but they are about the most practical solution you can come up with for a very big crowd.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
I've actually been at a service that used these—but, as always, there were extenuating circumstances. Not only was the show being run by strict memorialists, but also outdoors, in the rain, at a national Boy Scout event. To have prepackaged, water- and dirtproof elements to distribute to people with hands of questionable cleanliness was the Right Idea at the time....[F]or people away from civilization, running water, and sanitation (backpackers, soldiers, missionaries, etc.), it's a workable solution.

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quote:

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Originally posted by danatanseo:
One of the comments above pointed out how these prepackaged communion cups and bread actually were a good thing for Christian wanting to celebrate a Eucharist in places where sanitation and clean water are a problem. By all accounts, that's a very large portion of the world. Okay, so maybe it's different than the stuffy dignity to which I am accustomed in the Anglican tradition....but maybe we all need to loosen up a little and understand that communion supplies that allow marginalized people to share the Lord's supper are a good thing.

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
3. Finally, the allegation that folk (either Boy Scouts at a Jamboree or po' folk at their hovels) cannot safely eat the communion invites one to forget that these Scouts and the Po' Folk successfully manage, somehow, to eat their daily bread...well...every day.

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This one, as a long-time Scout, I have to disagree with. Part of it is that, at most memorialist services, the plate is passed, rather than having a priest hand out the wafers and pour into the wee cuppies; while at dinner, you have a fork between your grubby hands and the food, during a service, it's your hand touching all the cracker bits that everyone else down the line will be handling.

Think about it for a moment: you have a pile of tiny crackers on a doily being passed up and down the pews. Everyone picks up a small little bit, and passes the tray to the next person. This is gross enough in a church, but if you've been in Virginia for a week during the summer, it's downright stomach-turning. It's one thing to give yourself an intestine-cleaning parasite, but quite another to give it to your coreligionists.

As for reducing waste—well, other than the plastic wrap, it's not that different from the usual communion cups, is it? Sure, you don't have the stickers on top to deal with when you're pouring from the Welch's grape juice bottle into the squeeze pourer, then into the cuppies, but a few little bits of clingfilm may not make up an entire plastic bottle. In the end, I'm pretty sure you break even on the eco-concious tally.

As for price—well, that may be a point. It is cheaper to buy a $3 liter bottle of grape juice and some glorified saltines than to buy the whole thing pre-packaged if you're relying on drafted volunteer labor. If you can't rely on a diaconate, though, or you just need communion supplies now, it's probably the better option.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I forgot to mention:

In my childhood church, communion was a four-times-a-year affair. And it was always on a Sunday.

So it wasn't like they could save materials for the next day's service, or the next Sunday's.

And this was a small, not-rich congregation: 150-200 people on a good day; more often 30-50. So they couldn't just buy a big bottle of grape juice, and be sure of using it up. I don't know what they did with any leftover juice; it may have gone home with someone, for all I know.

(In memorialist churches, there isn't the issue of what to do with bits of Jesus afterwards. It's just a matter of dealing with leftover crackers and juice.)

FYI.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 

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Simply save unused single-serving Communion portions for your next service!

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At the Methodist church of my youth, I'd help my sometime communion steward dad by pouring the unused wee cuppies back into the bottle. Communion twice a month (once am, once (to very small numbers) pm). Grape juice never seemed to go mouldy or, God forbid, ferment

And the leftover bread cubes (Mother's Pride cheap white loaf, cubed before service) ? I was instructed to feed them to the birds. Generally, I ate them...with as much reverence as a slightly thoughtful 10 yr old omnivore could muster.
 

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Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
I don't have a liturgical or theological horse in the race, and I'm still . Services I remember included the words, "On the night Jesus was betrayed, he took bread ... he took the cup ..." These things make me picture the Jesus and the Apostles opening their TV dinners @ the Last Supper. OliviaG
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 

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These things make me picture the Jesus and the Apostles opening their TV dinners @ the Last Supper.

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[A]t most memorialist services, the plate is passed ... it's your hand touching all the cracker bits that everyone else down the line will be handling...This is gross enough in a church ... [but] in Virginia ... during the summer, it's downright stomach-turning. It's one thing to give yourself an intestine-cleaning parasite, but quite another to give it to your coreligionists.

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quote:

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As for reducing waste—well, other than the plastic wrap, it's not that different from the usual communion cups, is it?

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The problem is best fixed here: "The plate is passed...This is gross enough in a church."

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quote:

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From which I deduce that the "usual communion cups" are disposable. Well, a pox on that practice, too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

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[A]t most memorialist services, the plate is passed ... it's your hand touching all the cracker bits that everyone else down the line will be handling...This is gross enough in a church ... [but] in Virginia ... during the summer, it's downright stomach-turning. It's one thing to give yourself an intestine-cleaning parasite, but quite another to give it to your coreligionists.

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The elements are the medicine of immortality, the Body and Blood; whence comes this talk of intestinal parasites? The problem is best fixed here: "The plate is passed...This is gross enough in a church."

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As for reducing waste—well, other than the plastic wrap, it's not that different from the usual communion cups, is it?

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From which I deduce that the "usual communion cups" are disposable. Well, a pox on that practice, too.

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quote:

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[F]or us memorialists, the elements are never anything other than wheat and Welch's—always were, always will be. Calling them "medicine of immortality" will probably just get you a funny look for using a title we've never heard of...

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the diaconate isn't usually too keen on cleaning 200 tiny little cups...

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
After all these years, JSwift, we each are pretty familiar (and, I thought, comfortable) with the other's preference and theological points of view.

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But, my comments on this thread do not arise from those preferences. That's why I stipulated a memorialist context for them.

The poster who sees the necessary utility of the disposable single-serving communion cups for the reasons of hygiene stated: "The plate is passed...This is gross enough in a church." He identifies the problem of many hands handling the communion bread; I emphasize that a practice that calls to mind the presence of the Lord should not be an occasion to worry about intestinal parasites. I do not presume a priest. Presbyterians, for example, have got deacons and elders; they'd do the job just fine, cutting down on the number of hands touching the communion bread to just two.

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When I "deduce that the "usual communion cups" are disposable," I do so because I'm told, "As for reducing waste—well, other than the plastic wrap, it's not that different from the usual communion cups," which implies the usual cups are also plastic.

At my childhood Presbyterian church, the wee cups were glass. My mother, first female deacon in our church, testified to this by telling us just how heavy those serving trays were. The idea of plastic cups was, therefore something of a shock to me; although, Mom might have welcomed re-usable plastic cups.

My pox was upon the one-time wastefulness of the plastic cups, not on their wee-ness.

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My theological critique of the single-serving communion cups is based on (1) needless expense, (2) needless waste, and (3) the supposition that Boy Scouts and Po' Folk can't hygienically feed large numbers of themselves without resorting to an industrial-food solution.

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quote:

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Touché That's what I get for quoting Primitive Christians.

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Ouch. What a thing to say to restorationists.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Just had to share a very funny and pertinent joke that was on the "GCB" show tonight:

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I'm so hungry! All there was in that church kitchen was grape juice and stale crackers!

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Posted by Matariki (# 14380) on :
 
As a Methodist presbyter and as someoene who teaches sacramental theology and practise I think these pre-packaged communion packs are fairly appalling. I have mental images of serving communion like an airline steward would dish out those little bags of peanuts you get with drinks. The Eucharistic table is set for a banquet, it is not a counter in a fast food joint. As for the question about bread used in Methodist Eucharists it is generaly leavened but there is no hard and fast rule. I used an unleavened flat bread for our Maundy Thursday service.
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
At first glance, I thought the ad was a joke! But apparently it is real. Quick, someone, bring Miss Amanda her smelling salts. No, not the pre-packaged ones. She needs a jumbo helping!
 

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Posted by Cruet (# 14586) on :
 
Horrors of horrors! My TEC parish offered wee cuppies in addition to the chalice last evening.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

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Originally posted by Matariki:
The Eucharistic table is set for a banquet, it is not a counter in a fast food joint.

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Originally posted by Martin L:

Now all they need is a Vegas-style dealing apparatus..press a button, aim, and the host shoots into the mouth of the communicant.* No more would we be subjected to those icky ordinary and extraordinary minister germs.

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Originally posted by Spiffy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

Now all they need is a Vegas-style dealing apparatus..press a button, aim, and the host shoots into the mouth of the communicant.* No more would we be subjected to those icky ordinary and extraordinary minister germs.

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And it comes in real silver plate, too!

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Originally posted by Adrian1:
... it's impossible not to contemplate with dread how the question of the ablutions would be tackled.

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Originally posted by seasick:
Are wine-infused wafers even valid matter? I would have thought that it was doubtful at best...

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
That makes sense. I also wonder if these types of products are typically used by churches that hold to a strictly memorialist view of the Eucharist. That means I'm also assuming they would not have the same concerns about the way the elements were made, and I may be incorrect on that.

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Memorialism has a high correlation with grape-juice affinity, so this product would be out on those grounds.

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Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:

And, while most memorialists don't care what the matter is, at least not on theological grounds (grape juice and gluten-free wafers are options at the church I go to), even we can draw lines based on good taste and appropriateness to the situation. Sure, there may be allowances made during Youth Sunday, when there just isn't any grape juice during a retreat, or other extenuating circumstances, but this isn't even putting forth a good faith effort. If it smacks of laziness, lack of care, or mass processing, it's probably not worth it.

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