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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: On the wearing of cassocks
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I freely admit I'm a rank newcomer to cassocks. I want to learn about them, though, and I'm hoping you can help me.
What does one* wear under a cassock? I'm assuming undies, black socks, and (in really cold winter) perhaps some long underwear of some type. Is that true, or is it something else?
I'm also assuming that one wears black leather dress shoes, preferably shined? Are we talking the same kind of shoes I might wear with my charcoal business suit?
What about the cincture? Do I need to wear a cincture on the cassock when I'm wearing my alb (which also has a rope cincture) on top?
How much of the cassock's hem should show when I'm wearing my alb? Does it matter?
I realize these are nit-picky questions, and I suspect many people have never had to ask about these types of things. But I've only seen a cassock once in person, and my focus was directed elsewhere.
Many thanks for your kind help.
*I'm assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the person in question is male. However, I'm also interested in knowing what a female would do differently.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
What does one wear under a cassock? I'm assuming undies, black socks, and (in really cold winter) perhaps some long underwear of some type. I'm also assuming that one wears black leather dress shoes, preferably shined? Do I need to wear a cincture? How much of the cassock's hem should show when I'm wearing my alb?
Undies, black socks and black trousers. You don't want the cassock riding up on your legs, especially if you're wearing long woolen undies.
Conservative black shoes, for example, the style known as blucher. No pointy toes, zippers or Cuban heels. Shined but not patent leather. Not suede.
Cincture not required.
The hem should be slightly shorter than the trouser hem, but not what we call "high-water". You don't want your heels to catch it when you walk.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
What does one* wear under a cassock?
Pretty much anything you want as nobody else will be able to see it (apart from the shoes). Under my cassock I wear whatever I happen to be wearing that day. That may be jeans, it may be dark trousers. Depends what came to hand when I got up and what I'll be doing or where I'll be going after church. I try to avoid wearing a jumper under my cassock though as it can get rather warm.
quote:
*I'm assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the person in question is male. However, I'm also interested in knowing what a female would do differently.
I've never been so indiscreet as to look up the cassock of a lady, but I assume they do the same as men.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
A cassock is basically an long coat. Generally you wear normal clothes underneath. In hot weather, shorts and a tee-shirt is far from unknown, especially if you are wearing an amice or a neckcloth.
The shoes that go with your suit would be fine. Black is definitely best. Anything else looks a bit odd. Shiney? have an extra point.
About 150mm (6 inches, 1/3 cubit) of cassock should be visible below a surplice or very little if you are wearing an alb.
Exact length of cassock is slightly personal taste. Most people have them just not sweeping the floor as you go but some like a bit shorter to leave their feet free (what used to be called 'street length').
I don't know your climate, but in an English winter, a cassock is the best thing to wear around a poorly heated church.
Top tip: - Learn how to kneel, get up again and ascend stairs with a modicum of grace especially while holding something e.g. a torch, processional cross.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The hem should be slightly shorter than the trouser hem, but not what we call "high-water". You don't want your heels to catch it when you walk.
Or your toes to catch on it as you're climbing steps carrying the processional cross.
Not that that happened to me in my brand-spankin' new and not yet hemmed cassock on Maundy Thursday. Nope. You can't prove it.
(I'm just not very adept at wearing dresses.)
[ 11. April 2012, 00:24: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I generally opt for a black undershirt and black trousers, black socks, and black shoes that I keep in a box in the sacristy (as the ones I'd rather wear for walking throughout the city are not the ones I'd want to wear in the sanctuary).
I've heard of others wearing less under the cassock, but I don't think it's designed to stand in for all your clothing, and having to wash it after every wearing will render it a shade of gray in a short time. Very grateful for our good air-conditioning system, especially remembering how stifling the church could be in high summer.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
I freely admit I'm a rank newcomer to cassocks. I want to learn about them, though, and I'm hoping you can help me.
We lives to serve. quote:
What does one* wear under a cassock? I'm assuming undies, black socks, and (in really cold winter) perhaps some long underwear of some type. Is that true, or is it something else?
Street dress, but nothing that can seen when you have the cassock on. Remove your collared shirt so it cannot be seen. Roll up your cuffs and fold down your collar if you don't remove the dress shirt. You'll likely be called to don your cassock in a semi-public place (crowded sacristy, hallway, among those of the opposite sex), so unless it's blistering hot, you want to be decent under the cassock. Don't tell anybody, but I wear shorts and knee-high socks during July and August. If you are at all tall, purchase medical compression socks so the damn things will stay up. I'm convinced all dress knee socks are designed for midgets. quote:
I'm also assuming that one wears black leather dress shoes, preferably shined? Are we talking the same kind of shoes I might wear with my charcoal business suit?
Exactly. Black, leather, shined, but not Marine Corps-patent-leather shiny. Black socks. quote:
What about the cincture? Do I need to wear a cincture on the cassock when I'm wearing my alb (which also has a rope cincture) on top?
No. One cincture about the alb'll do it. Don't forget to tie the cincture to leave the loops for where your stole is going to go when you get priested.
The question you didn't ask is, How long should the cassock be?
The answer to that is, The cassock hem (and the alb hem, for that matter) should "break" on the instep of the dress shoe in exactly the same way that your dress trousers break. (Always size the alb when wearing a cassock.) You do not want to show your ankles—any part of them.
If you are young, you are going to get fat ^h^h^h I mean thicken, as you get older, so be generous with the length (the amount of the break), because as you add weight, you'll steal some of the length of the cassock. So...you can buy a slightly longer cassock than necessary at a young age and (1) have the altar guild hem it up or (2) yank some of the length up above the cincture, pouching it out some. The cotta or surplice will cover the pouching.
In any event, you'll now be walking with close-to-floor-length skirts, so you'll have to practice walking, especially up stairs, so you don't take a header.
When scampering upstairs back from the Gentlemen's toilet, use one hand to lift the skirt (only whores use two).
When walking up steps during the liturgy, learn to slightly kick the skirt before you take the step.
Absolutely no one else, especially fat old priests, will have cassocks the proper length. Ignore, but don't feel superior to, them. quote:
How much of the cassock's hem should show when I'm wearing my alb? Does it matter?
Yes, it matters, and the answer is, ideally, no hem of the cassock shows: It's the undergarment. In practice, you may expose some of the cassock, but don't obsess over it. Just get the length of both garments right—and then, forget about it. quote:
I realize these are nit-picky questions, and I suspect many people have never had to ask about these types of things. But I've only seen a cassock once in person, and my focus was directed elsewhere.
They are not nitpicky. quote:
Many thanks for your kind help.
Da nada.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I tend to prefer a cassock that is shrt enough to keep out of the dog shit - top hole of your lace-up shoes at the longest - ankle length is better.
Other than that black socks, shoes, and trousers.
PD
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My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The Silent Acolyte, in posting: quote:
When scampering upstairs back from the Gentlemen's toilet, use one hand to lift the skirt (only whores use two).
perhaps raises more questions that was intended, and invites inappropriate observations about parishioners.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Sometimes I... *cough* wear jeans under my cassock. With brown shoes. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I always wear jeans under my cassock. But I do change into black ballet slippers from my dirty trainers, as a sop to the Ecclesiantics-minded who may be present that day.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
<Begin Scarlett O'Hara accent> ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Y'all are just simply the best! That's what you are. </accent>
Ahem.
Yes, thank you so much. Very informative. TSA, I've sold menswear, so I know about the break in trousers, and about knee-length wool socks. And yeah, they are an aggravation. I happen to be short, so they come up almost to my knees, but I can see where someone much taller than I would have trouble.
I happen to own several sisters, and having watched Mama teach them how to move around in a skirt or dress, I now know the rudiments of the art myself, such as smoothing out the skirt before sitting, holding up the skirt when ascending stairs, etc. I'll grab one and get a crash course before long.
Zach, one of my sisters visited Sewanee a few weeks ago; she's deciding on which seminary to attend. She said they were adamant about the fact that, when wearing a cassock and surplice or alb, only black shoes should be worn, and that women shouldn't wear heels. She had already been wearing black shoes under her alb, but I note that since then she's switched to flats on Sunday morning.
Thanks again for all the help.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I seem to remember that the Vatican regulars were shocked when there was a new Polish pope who actually wore trousers (American pants?) under his cassock.
British pants should always be worn, though.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Jeans-wearing officiants would do well to use black jeans and ensure that they are not frayed. While the more precious of the young fogey breed might prefer breeches with black stockings or gaiters, the ruling principle for all should be that whatever they are wearing not be the focus of anyone's attention, be it flamboyance, decrepitude or absence. A moment's thought when laying out garments for the next day will take care of the problem.
As a further observation, could sandal-wearing clerics ensure that the state of their feet does not cause involuntary revulsion among kneeling communicants? If they are not prepared to deal with dirt, flaps of dead skin, corns, and broken toenails, then they should definitely wear dark shoes and spare us distraction.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I've never been so indiscreet as to look up the cassock of a lady, but I assume they do the same as men.
On hot days, one of our female altos used to go into the loo and strip off to her underwear before putting on her cassock, as she said it was too hot to wear clothes. Fortunately, she never forgot at the end of the service. I don't think our unisex vestry would ever recover from the shock! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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FatherRobLyons
Shipmate
# 14622
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Posted
At one time, I wore a cassock daily - though mine was a hooded Syrian job at the time. The Syrian cassock does not have a place for a collar, but most people looked at me oddly if I did not wear a collar with it. So my general look was to wear a short-sleeved dog collar shirt with collarette and a pair of black cotton long underwear beneath the cassock. Black shoes, black socks. The weight of the cassock was such that even in windy conditions, it never blew around that much.
During the summer, I wore a much lighter Syrian cassock with buttons on the neck, which made attaching the collarette over the cassock a simple matter. On those days, I'd wear an undershirt, black trousers, socks, shoes, and snap the collarette over the top of the cassock.
Some days I miss wearing a cassock daily ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Rob+
Posts: 321 | From: Bargersville, IN | Registered: Mar 2009
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
How much of the cassock's hem should show when I'm wearing my alb? Does it matter?
Yes, it matters, and the answer is, ideally, no hem of the cassock shows: It's the undergarment. In practice, you may expose some of the cassock, but don't obsess over it. Just get the length of both garments right—and then, forget about it.
I prefer to see an inkling of cassock under the alb. It proves that the clergyperson is not wearing a cassock-alb.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I seem to remember that the Vatican regulars were shocked when there was a new Polish pope who actually wore trousers (American pants?) under his cassock.
Did he not believe in the Immaculate Conception?
Thurible
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
I prefer to see an inkling of cassock under the alb. It proves that the clergyperson is not wearing a cassock-alb.
Not necessarily. I know some clergy who wear a cassock under a cassock-alb.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
In my youth, I somehow got the idea that, properly speaking, one should always put on a cassock before entering the chancel or sanctuary. I regularly did so myself (e.g. to practice the organ) and so did my choristers when they went into the choir stalls to rehearse.
Is there any authority for this scruple?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Re cinctures etc: they should be worn with a traditional alb but look awful with most cassock-albs (OK, I know most denizens of here think cassock-albs look awful anyway, but...). If you wear a single-breasted button down the middle cassock a cincture is not necessary (unless you're a bishop or such like and wear a purple one), but with a double-breasted cassock a leather belt is customary.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Sometimes I... *cough* wear jeans under my cassock. With brown shoes.
Miss Amanda will be charitable and assume you're a Franciscan.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
As a further observation, could sandal-wearing clerics ensure that the state of their feet does not cause involuntary revulsion among kneeling communicants? If they are not prepared to deal with dirt, flaps of dead skin, corns, and broken toenails, then they should definitely wear dark shoes and spare us distraction.
Despite what has been said elsewhere on these boards, there's nothing wrong with black socks under sandals -- especially if you're afflicted with the maladies listed above (to which nail fungus must be added).
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I seem to remember that the Vatican regulars were shocked when there was a new Polish pope who actually wore trousers (American pants?) under his cassock.
British pants should always be worn, though.
The old drill in Rome was long sock/hose and breeches, or, when it was hot, just your "Madre Tandies" - phonetic spelling for "Mother's Draws" referring to the baggy nun-made underware issued to English Seminarians in Rome.
If you are going to wear just your undies and long socks under your cassock it had bettwe be a single breated cassock and the socks just below the knees. Careless genuflection is apt to reveal more than one might think!
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Full-faith anglo-catholic priests wear NO trousers or pants underneath. Make sure they're the 39 little buttons to avoid anything poking out if over-excited.
Aha! I never learned that when growing up in the highest diocese in the world; but when I moved to what I had feared was the snakebelly-low Disease of Pennsylvania, the local choirboys always stripped to their underwear before putting on their vestments, and had probably done so for well-nigh a hundred years. Where the tradition exists, long may it continue as a buttress against the rising tide of universal coed. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I never learned that when growing up in the highest diocese in the world; but when I moved to what I had feared was the snakebelly-low Disease of Pennsylvania, the local choirboys always stripped to their underwear before putting on their vestments, and had probably done so for well-nigh a hundred years. Where the tradition exists, long may it continue as a buttress against the rising tide of universal coed.
Shows what you know. I got over my shyness in stripping in mixed gender company in high school marching band. I'm not embarrassed about my body, and if you're embarrassed, that's your own problem that can be solved by averting your eyes.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
In my youth, I somehow got the idea that, properly speaking, one should always put on a cassock before entering the chancel or sanctuary. I regularly did so myself (e.g. to practice the organ) and so did my choristers when they went into the choir stalls to rehearse.
Is there any authority for this scruple?
It must be fairly widespread - in all the choirs I've belonged to, the rule is 'cassock, but no surplice' when entering the choir stalls or sanctuary' for pre-service / post-service tasks.
I've been informed that the Archdeacon, last time he came to our church to take a service, wasn't wearing any trousers. I'm not quite sure how the person who told me this knows....
[ 11. April 2012, 16:59: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Clergy friends have told me in hot weather they wear only underwear underneath their cassocks.
TMI really as unfortunalely I have great difficulty taking seriously a clergy person who I know is not fully dressed!! (A bit like calming nerves by imagining an interviewer naked.)
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I've been informed that the Archdeacon, last time he came to our church to take a service, wasn't wearing any trousers. I'm not quite sure how the person who told me this knows....
Perhaps your informant was still in possession of them ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
PD writes:
quote:
The old drill in Rome was long sock/hose and breeches,
A quick telephone call to a friend who did his JCL in Rome confirms that this is still practised and that clerical tailors are accustomed to providing these garments. These garments began to die off in the 1970s but are now being adopted again in growing numbers.
Spiffy's comment on changing room practices in cultural circles is valid, and should encourage us to embrace the monastic practice of Custody of The Eyes.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Update:
I found a Gaspard Anglican-style cassock on eBay, which I bid on and won. It's poplin, which is the cheapest option Gaspard offers, but it does have working buttons (for which Gaspard charges $15 extra). $85 after shipping instead of $152 leaves me thinking I've done ok.
Here is the link to the item. It turns out I mis-judged my size, but if I lose some weight (which I desperately need to do anyhow), it will fit just fine. The only problem is that it's a bit short -- ankle length, rather than shoe height, but it has a 2' hem on it that I believe can be let down without too much trouble.
I'm pleased overall.
ETA: Now I just need a surplice and I'm in business.
[ 21. April 2012, 00:01: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Ankle length is good - it keeps it out the slush and dog shit. Just remember when wearing it - TYTIYS (pron. Titties) - tuck your trousers in your socks.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
We're not completely sure where these episcopal ankles go to run into all this canine excrement (we're guessing the graveyard), but it's no doubt a royal pain to get it off one's skirts.
I have seen leather hems on the skirts though. That would make the cleanup easier.
Padre Joshua, mayhap it's just as well you've stumbled upon the length you have. I shouldn't mess with altering the hem, though.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
TSA,
It is a relic of my first curacy. The route from where I lived to the church was a favoured dog walking promenade, and let us say that not everyone picked up!
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I've never been so indiscreet as to look up the cassock of a lady, but I assume they do the same as men.
On hot days, one of our female altos used to go into the loo and strip off to her underwear before putting on her cassock, as she said it was too hot to wear clothes. Fortunately, she never forgot at the end of the service. I don't think our unisex vestry would ever recover from the shock!
You remind me of this. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Clergy friends have told me in hot weather they wear only underwear underneath their cassocks.
TMI really as unfortunalely I have great difficulty taking seriously a clergy person who I know is not fully dressed!! (A bit like calming nerves by imagining an interviewer naked.)
Well, we are all naked under our clothes.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
A few of points here on cassocks from an old timer, brethren.
1. For clergy who order their own personal cassock, the garnment without a belt or cincture band should fall long enough to cover dress trousers or jeans and just touch the instep of the shoes, almost sweeping the floor in back. The purpose of a belt or cincture is to hold the cassock in place so that length can be properly adjusted, raising it as one prefers and bringing it conveniently off the floor in back. Wearing a shorter length cassock without such a band or belt around the middle invariably winds up looking too short showing trouser legs, socks, ankles or what have you.
2. The cincture band or belt should always be removed before donning an alb. That prevents the cincture band and fascia (if any from being creased by the alb cincture. It also prevents a belt buckle from contact with the alb fabric to prevent wear. The alb cincture then adjusts the proper length of both the alb and the cassock underneath.
3. I don't know where the Silent Acolyte gets his information, but there is certainly no reason for laity to roll up standard dress shirt sleeves and fold under their collars unless one is wearing a rather unsightly or oddly colored shirt. From a short distance, medium blue, pin stripe, or of course white, look much the same.
4. One can properly wear any shoes at most times with a cassock, except that for major liturgical functions in the company of others in similar dress, black shoes are normally required are certainly preferred. For instance, a priest celebrating the daily office or a weekday Eucharist and his or her server might well wear any street shoes that are convenient. On Sundays or church feasts with a larger congregation, many servers, attendants and choir, the black or dark shoes (for all) should most probably be worn.
5. As many eyes witnesses have reported, Pope John Paul II did exactly what I mention. He was frequently seen in brown loafers at his daily Mass and afterwards during the day in his soutane. He changed to more formal dark or black loafers or tied oxfords for more formal functions.
6. Anything or next to nothing can be worn under a cassock, depending on weather and comfort. For instance, a tee shirt and shorts can easily be worn under in the summer. However, it's always best to check the transparency of the cassock fabric in direct daylight so that the shorts with bare legs do not appear to others in vivid silhouette.
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
During a heat-wave (we do occasionally have one in Britain) an elderly lady parishioner remarked post- service to our Vicar (who later became a Bishop) 'Oh, Father John! How hot you must be in your robes.' He was wearing his cassock at the time, and replied 'Thank you for asking, but I'm really quite all right. I've only got my Y-fronts on under this.' The lady retired in some confusion. I've never dared to follow his example.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I don't know where the Silent Acolyte gets his information, but there is certainly no reason for laity to roll up standard dress shirt sleeves and fold under their collars unless one is wearing a rather unsightly or oddly colored shirt. From a short distance, medium blue, pin stripe, or of course white, look much the same.
Sorry, I am with Silent Acolyte on this one. At our traddy RC shack, TYTIYS is required if the pants are not black or navy--and even so, many still tuck, myself included, as a matter of habit. As for shirts, if one wears a white shirt, it can be tolerated; if it is any other color, its collar and sleeve must be folded in. As a practical matter, since we live in a fairly warm climate, I recommend that the shirt be removed and one simply wear the undershirt under the cassock. The idea is to remove evidence of secular dress below the cassock. Some even follow the priests' example and remove their wristwatches.
Yes, yes, the servers are all secular laymen, but our liturgy (the EF) is carried out meticuously, and we have found that many people in the pew are edified by attenion to such detail. The removal of even small distractions benefits both servers and congregation alike.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
As many eyes witnesses have reported, Pope John Paul II did exactly what I mention. He was frequently seen in brown loafers at his daily Mass and afterwards during the day in his soutane. He changed to more formal dark or black loafers or tied oxfords for more formal functions.
When did Blessed John Paul II ever wear black loafers during official functions? Red shoes are the norm for Pontiffs in recent centuries. BJP2 and B16 both followed this custom.
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Mr. Rob
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# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
As many eyes witnesses have reported, Pope John Paul II did exactly what I mention. He was frequently seen in brown loafers at his daily Mass and afterwards during the day in his soutane. He changed to more formal dark or black loafers or tied oxfords for more formal functions.
When did Blessed John Paul II ever wear black loafers during official functions? Red shoes are the norm for Pontiffs in recent centuries. BJP2 and B16 both followed this custom.
That is a typo in my original post that you quote. I meant to refer to "John Paul I" and not John Paul "II."
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Mr. Rob
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# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I don't know where the Silent Acolyte gets his information, but there is certainly no reason for laity to roll up standard dress shirt sleeves and fold under their collars unless one is wearing a rather unsightly or oddly colored shirt. From a short distance, medium blue, pin stripe, or of course white, look much the same.
Sorry, I am with Silent Acolyte on this one. At our traddy RC shack, TYTIYS is required if the pants are not black or navy--and even so, many still tuck, myself included, as a matter of habit. As for shirts, if one wears a white shirt, it can be tolerated; if it is any other color, its collar and sleeve must be folded in. As a practical matter, since we live in a fairly warm climate, I recommend that the shirt be removed and one simply wear the undershirt under the cassock. The idea is to remove evidence of secular dress below the cassock. Some even follow the priests' example and remove their wristwatches.
Yes, yes, the servers are all secular laymen, but our liturgy (the EF) is carried out meticuously, and we have found that many people in the pew are edified by attenion to such detail. The removal of even small distractions benefits both servers and congregation alike.
Yes, I suppose that there are always those "meticulous" and Extraordinary Form and extraordinary parochial exceptions. I was speaking about general, ordinary church use in regard to cassocks.
At some places, such as Westminster Abbey, some Church of England cathedrals and the Chapels Royal, bands are required to be worn with cassocks by all clergy, chapter officers and choirmasters. However, like the Roman Mass in the Extraordinary Form and certain Anglo-Catholic parishes, those cassock rules and regulations are decidedly outside the general norm.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I meant to refer to "John Paul I" and not John Paul "II."
No wonder he was murdered.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I meant to refer to "John Paul I" and not John Paul "II."
No wonder he was murdered.
OK, even I will admit--that was funny. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The hem should be slightly shorter than the trouser hem, but not what we call "high-water". You don't want your heels to catch it when you walk.
Or your toes to catch on it as you're climbing steps carrying the processional cross.
Not that that happened to me in my brand-spankin' new and not yet hemmed cassock on Maundy Thursday. Nope. You can't prove it.
(I'm just not very adept at wearing dresses.)
My cassock came out of our "general population" and was really long. I basted the hem (please, no one mistake me for someone who knows how to sew!)...and it didn't hold all that well. On Easter Eve this year, my toe caught in the hem and I tripped up the steps to the lectern for my reading in the Vigil! (Didn't help that I was climbing over another verger's legs in the dark...)
IME, you just wear your street clothes under a cassock. In a choir I used to be in, I knew one lady who, because of the heat, would remove her shirt first and just wear her bra (and pants/skirt) underneath, but I've never known anyone else who did that. Men tend to want their shirt collar to show; however, in some choirs, there's a bit of fabric (must have a name - anyone know?) worn by the men so that they don't all have different collars showing, so I suppose they could go shirtless under their cassock if it's really hot.
Preferably, whatever pants/skirt one wears will be black and one's shoes and socks will be black—regardless of the cassock color (some choirs wear colored cassocks, and, of course, people in cathedrals tend to wear purple cassocks)—to present a uniform appearance among vested participants in the liturgy and also to remove any distraction. But I've never encountered any sort of rules about what kind of shoes to wear. I wear black jeans and black gym shoes (the shoes are because I have bad feet and can't find dress shoes that are suitable for a long day of work in a cathedral).
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My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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