Ship of Fools: Devotions at meetings

Thread: Devotions at meetings Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

One of the things I find hardest about being a minister is leading devotions at the opening of meetings at church. The generally accepted format seems to be a few verses of Scripture, perhaps a few words about those verses and then a prayer, but I always find myself scrabbling around to find suitable passages and prayers.

So, I was wondering if any other Shippies have this problem and if so, what they use/follow to do this? All help gratefully received.

(PS Hosts - ave posted this in Eccles because it seemed the most suitable place, but please move it if you feel it's better elsewhere!)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I agree. But, to answer, I wonder if you need to ask yourself a few questions.

1. Why do we need devotions at the start of a meeting at all? Do we believe God won't be with us if we don't? Is it to "attune" ourselves to the fact that we are now discussing "spiritual things"? Or is it simply a hoary tradition? (BTW, I think devotions at the beginning of the meeting are good - but I just want to raise the questions).

2. Does there need to be a "wee word" or will a simple prayer suffice? What does the little message add to the meeting? Does anyone remember it? If not, omit! (Again, there are times when a Scripture reading and comment are useful - but not always).

3. Does it always have to be you? As (I think) you are a Baptist, why not spread it around the Deacons?

4. There are books of "prayers before meetings" available, but I can't remember any at the moment. Can anyone else help out here? There is merit in using other peoples' wisdom - but not if it takes 2 hours to find it!

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
(PS Hosts - ave posted this in Eccles because it seemed the most suitable place, but please move it if you feel it's better elsewhere!)

Have no fear, this is definitely the right place. Hope you find plenty of inspiration!

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

PS I like your sig - definitely something I can relate to! [Big Grin]

[ 16. April 2012, 10:48: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]

Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on :

How about the Daily Office in the version of your choice, provided that the meeting is long enough that it won't extend it unduly?

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Anglican resources might be of help. I don't know if the CofE has such things, but the US BCP has a daily lectionary and a section of prayers on a variety of topics. You could take a bit of Bible reading from the lectionary, and look through the prayers for something suitable. There are also a large number of canticles in Morning and Evening Prayer, which could be useful both as scripture and as prayer.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I agree. But, to answer, I wonder if you need to ask yourself a few questions.

1. Why do we need devotions at the start of a meeting at all? Do we believe God won't be with us if we don't? Is it to "attune" ourselves to the fact that we are now discussing "spiritual things"? Or is it simply a hoary tradition? (BTW, I think devotions at the beginning of the meeting are good - but I just want to raise the questions).

These are all good questions. For me, the purpose of devotions (apart from "we've always done them") is:

1) To recognise God's presence with us in the meeting - not because I don't think He won't turn up if we don't acknowledge it, but we need to recognise it for ourselves;

2) (Linked to the above) To recognise that the meeting is more than just a business meeting; that although we will have finances and property and other business matters to attend to and these are important, they're not our primary reason for meeting, but that all of what we discuss (including the business matters) are to do with God and our life in Him.

quote:
2. Does there need to be a "wee word" or will a simple prayer suffice? What does the little message add to the meeting? Does anyone remember it? If not, omit! (Again, there are times when a Scripture reading and comment are useful - but not always).

No there doesn't - and I've quite often done it without. But, that's not really the problem - it's the starting point that I find difficult.

quote:
3. Does it always have to be you? As (I think) you are a Baptist, why not spread it around the Deacons?

I think it's sort of assumed that because I'm chairing the meeting, I'll open it with devotions. At the church I grew up in, I served as a Deacon and devotions was rotated around all the Deacons. It might be worth a try...

quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
How about the Daily Office in the version of your choice, provided that the meeting is long enough that it won't extend it unduly?

That's kind of outside our tradition and, given how long our meetings gone on for anyway (which of course has nothing to do with my chairing skills [Hot and Hormonal]

) might be pushing it for length. But I'm always willing to try something new so thanks for the suggestion - do you have any good starting places?

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Speaking of that reminds of of the Daily Devotions for Individuals and Families.

These are little "starter offices" to help you get to praying the Office. Though often they can be "lazy prayers" for when I tell myself I have no time for the real thing.

There great for meetings, I've used them that way before and it seems the vast majority of Episcopalians have no idea they exist, let alone other Christians, so there surprisingly fresh after nearly 40 years.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

In our parish, Vestry meetings and related committee meetings generally start with the Lord's Prayer, the Hail Mary, and this collect:

O God, because without you we are not able to please you, mercifully grant that, in this meeting as in all things, your Holy Spirit may direct and rule our hearts; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. [Proper 19, USA BCP 1979, alt.]

And at the end of the meeting:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all evermore. Amen.

I like to use these if I'm facilitating a Bible study (we study the lectionary readings of the day on Sundays at 10 a.m.):

Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful, and kindle in them the fire of thy love. O God, who didst teach the hearts of thy faithful people by sending to them the light of thy Holy Spirit: grant us by the same Spirit to have a right judgment in all things, and evermore to rejoice in his holy comfort; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. [St. Augustine's Prayer Book]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
1. Why do we need devotions at the start of a meeting at all? Do we believe God won't be with us if we don't?

So why bother praying at all? (As I'm sure BT knows.)

Would that most Anglican meetings I went to had any of the imagination displayed above.

I'm wary of extempore prayer at this point, particularly by the chair of the meeting, as it can so often be indirect direction or manipulation of the meeting. (Which from his comments on intercessions, I bet stejjie wouldn't do.)

Surely Baptists and Methodists would be comfortable singing a hymn together? (and so making it a communal activity. Many Anglicans would sink through the floor rather than sing a hymn outside church.)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:I'm wary of extempore prayer at this point, particularly by the chair of the meeting, as it can so often be indirect direction or manipulation of the meeting.

Quite true, and I've done it (not necessarily intentionally, but because I felt "burdened" or concerned about how the meeting should proceed.

Perhaps that is another reason for prayer to be led by someone who is not the chair.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Surely Baptists and Methodists would be comfortable singing a hymn together?

Sounds daringly ecumenical to me (I know that's not quite what you meant!)

Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
In our parish, Vestry meetings and related committee meetings generally start with the Lord's Prayer, the Hail Mary, and this collect:

O God, because without you we are not able to please you, mercifully grant that, in this meeting as in all things, your Holy Spirit may direct and rule our hearts; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. [Proper 19, USA BCP 1979, alt.]

And at the end of the meeting:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all evermore. Amen.

I like to use these if I'm facilitating a Bible study (we study the lectionary readings of the day on Sundays at 10 a.m.):

Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful, and kindle in them the fire of thy love. O God, who didst teach the hearts of thy faithful people by sending to them the light of thy Holy Spirit: grant us by the same Spirit to have a right judgment in all things, and evermore to rejoice in his holy comfort; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. [St. Augustine's Prayer Book]

I really like this! Thanks Oblatus.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:I'm wary of extempore prayer at this point, particularly by the chair of the meeting, as it can so often be indirect direction or manipulation of the meeting.
Quite true, and I've done it (not necessarily intentionally, but because I felt "burdened" or concerned about how the meeting should proceed.

Perhaps that is another reason for prayer to be led by someone who is not the chair.

Although I do use extempore prayers, I am aware of the dangers you both raise, so they tend to follow a similar format (thanking God for gathering us together, recognising His presence with us, asking for His wisdom & guidance in all we're going to discuss).

Ending with The Grace is a good idea, and one we normally follow (especially if we've had what's referred to in the minutes as a "full and frank discussion"). Hadn't thought of starting with the Lord's Prayer, but that's a good idea as well.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

you could use Luke 10:38-42 to set the correct tone for any church business...

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
O God, for as much as without Thee we are not able to please Thee; mercifully grant, that Thy Holy Spirit may in all things direct and rule our hearts; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

As Oblatus suggests this (unmodified or not) is appropriate for the beginning of any kind of church deliberation. It is the invariant opening prayer to our vestry meetings. The priest pronounces the blessing at the end of the meeting.

As to the opening post: the Daily Office Lectionary, the Lectionary, the Lectionary! No need to go grubbing around in the sordid recesses of our minds for the apposite bit of scripture. The Lectionary! gives us a daily groaning table.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Surely Baptists and Methodists would be comfortable singing a hymn together?
Sounds daringly ecumenical to me (I know that's not quite what you meant!)

Singing works well as part of the opening devotions at larger meetings, but not so well at smaller ones. People may work out where "the joyful noise" is coming from ...

Tubbs

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

I wish I had recorded/written the sketch from the Now Show on Radio 4 late Feb based on the ruling against Bideford council prayers.

Google may be a friend - but all the refs are to the BBC site where now not available.

It was a wonderful parody style prayer about such things as the meeting not going on too long and other councillors concerns IIRC.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
As to the opening post: the Daily Office Lectionary, the Lectionary, the Lectionary! No need to go grubbing around in the sordid recesses of our minds for the apposite bit of scripture. The Lectionary! gives us a daily groaning table.

Stejjie's profile says he's a Baptist minister, so this isn't as obvious to him as it is to you and me.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

I was aware that indeed it does, RuthW.

My typographic enthusiasm was meant as a earnestly burbly recommendation, not as a reproof.

Google for baptist lectionary and one does not go unrewarded.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

My usual practice is to pick an appropriate psalm (usually by simply opening my bible and leafing through) and then extempore prayer to that effect that God be in our thoughts and words, our decisions and actions. We usually conclude with the Grace.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
As to the opening post: the Daily Office Lectionary, the Lectionary, the Lectionary! No need to go grubbing around in the sordid recesses of our minds for the apposite bit of scripture. The Lectionary! gives us a daily groaning table.
Stejjie's profile says he's a Baptist minister, so this isn't as obvious to him as it is to you and me.

Although Ruth's right, we do use the Lectionary for our Sunday readings, so it's not completely alien to us and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to use it for weekday meetings.

Am Googling as per TSA's later post as we speak!!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
As to the opening post: the Daily Office Lectionary, the Lectionary, the Lectionary! No need to go grubbing around in the sordid recesses of our minds for the apposite bit of scripture. The Lectionary! gives us a daily groaning table.
Stejjie's profile says he's a Baptist minister, so this isn't as obvious to him as it is to you and me.

I can't ever remember an Anglican priest using the lectionary in such a context, as a matter of interest.

Posted by drnick (# 16065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I wish I had recorded/written the sketch from the Now Show on Radio 4 late Feb based on the ruling against Bideford council prayers.

Google may be a friend - but all the refs are to the BBC site where now not available.

It was a wonderful parody style prayer about such things as the meeting not going on too long and other councillors concerns IIRC.

Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg8qg2Thlss

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

What's wrong with silence? Any words before meetings, as others have suggested, are likely to be misrepresented (by hearers or users) as attempts to dictate to God the outcome of the meeting. And even if not, there will be so many words spoken then that a breathing space without them can only be a good thing.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

quote:
Originally posted by drnick:

quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I wish I had recorded/written the sketch from the Now Show on Radio 4 late Feb based on the ruling against Bideford council prayers.

Google may be a friend - but all the refs are to the BBC site where now not available.

It was a wonderful parody style prayer about such things as the meeting not going on too long and other councillors concerns IIRC.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg8qg2Thlss

Thanks - my google is obviously inferior to yours!!

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
I can't ever remember an Anglican priest using the lectionary in such a context, as a matter of interest.

So, here's the thing. The standard cycle of daily prayer in the liturgical churches (Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, and others) turns on the lectionary.

In the full Anglican tradition, each day, that cycle serves up two Gospel readings, two Old Testament readings, two reading from the Epistles, and a thirtieth part of the Psalter.

The opening post reasonably asks for help selecting a suitable passage from Scripture with which to ground and begin a meeting at church.

When praying the daily office, it's usually an easy job indeed to select a suitable scripture passage once the scope is narrowed down to what the local church is reading on that day (or yesterday).

[ 18. April 2012, 18:50: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I usually see if any of the readings for the day can be applied to that day's meeting. Or the psalm is often suitable for reflection.

Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:

quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
How about the Daily Office in the version of your choice, provided that the meeting is long enough that it won't extend it unduly?
That's kind of outside our tradition and, given how long our meetings gone on for anyway (which of course has nothing to do with my chairing skills ) might be pushing it for length. But I'm always willing to try something new so thanks for the suggestion - do you have any good starting places? [/QB]

I'd suggest you start with the Episcopal Church's Book of Common Prayer (1979) or the Presbyterian Church's Book of Common Worship (1993). The morning and evening daily services in each lend themselves well to a meaningful but brief worship experience.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Why not open the meeting with all present saying the Lord's prayer. The meeting can then continue as per any agenda.

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :

We begin parish council meetings by saying Evening Prayer and then sharing a meal before launching into the meeting.

The meeting itself is structured to reflect on "What is God doing among us?" and "What is God doing with us?" The first question is about reflection on where we are seeing God at work in our midst... bible studies, Natural Church Development work, etc etc. This first bit is about the direction of the parish. This first half of the meeting is equal to the entire second half in terms of the time spent on it. The second question takes in the reports from the two committees and space to be thinking about what we are doing in mission. Next we have Correspondence, Financial reports, Gen Business, and a standing item for Child Protection Risk Management training. (Placing the financial reports next to last is deliberate: our focus is NOT money, but God's presence in our midst and God's mission.)

We finish with Compline.

[ 19. April 2012, 13:59: Message edited by: Nunc Dimittis ]

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

At our shack meetings usually simply open with a short ad-libbed prayer and end with the Lord's Prayer. Our council president, though, who's involved in some outside Evangelical organizations, is in the habit of sharing devotional stories from one of his other associations.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

The Manual of the United Church of Canada enjoins recording secretaries to note whether prayers were said or not and my whom. I understand the reason to be that a minister or other person could take the opportunity to lead prayers in a meeting as an excuse to ride a person hobby-horse. Usual congregational back-biting stuff.

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:

quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:

quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
How about the Daily Office in the version of your choice, provided that the meeting is long enough that it won't extend it unduly?
That's kind of outside our tradition and, given how long our meetings gone on for anyway (which of course has nothing to do with my chairing skills ) might be pushing it for length. But I'm always willing to try something new so thanks for the suggestion - do you have any good starting places?
I'd suggest you start with the Episcopal Church's Book of Common Prayer (1979) or the Presbyterian Church's Book of Common Worship (1993). The morning and evening daily services in each lend themselves well to a meaningful but brief worship experience. [/QB]

Yes, the "evening devotions" page in the 1979 BCP is short and snappy. Recommended. Or pick a couple of the prayers from Evening Prayer or Compline.

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

Our Parish Council Meetings, before I left it, tended to last 10-15 minutes after the Sunday Eucharist and were basically an opportunity for our Parish Priest to tell us what he was doing outside, as well as inside, the parish. His interests and preferences, as well as holidays, tend to leave most work in the parish to retired members of his order. He is away from the parish and the country at least 33% of the time. He starts and finishes with a brief prayer. It's so moving I've completely forgotten it. After the final prayer it's off to lunch and whatever he does on Sunday and during the week for him.

Our prayer could be "Lord deliver us from our Parish Priest". [Votive]

Posted by Bos Loquax (# 16602) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
One of the things I find hardest about being a minister is leading devotions at the opening of meetings at church. The generally accepted format seems to be a few verses of Scripture, perhaps a few words about those verses and then a prayer, but I always find myself scrabbling around to find suitable passages and prayers.

So, I was wondering if any other Shippies have this problem and if so, what they use/follow to do this? All help gratefully received.

When I saw the title of this thread, I instantly thought of this material for "AN OFFICE FOR GENERAL USE AT PAROCHIAL OR SOCIETY MEETINGS" from A Book of Offices (1914), the predecessor of The Book of Occasional Services in the US Episcopal church.

In summary:

After the meeting is called to order, there follows "In the name of...," some other introductory prayers (including Kyries and the Lord's Prayer), and two collects (one of which, "O God, who as at this time didst teach the hearts of Thy faithful people," is already mentioned in this thread).

Then come at least one psalm (out of three selections given) and a reading. It may be "The Gospel for the week"--get out your lectionary!--or a more topical selection, "chosen according to the occasion," out of 14 selections. Stejjie in particular, the citations given may (or of course may not) also come in handy for your purposes.

Then come a hymn, the address, and another hymn.

Then come some other prayers (or "The Litany of General Intercession," which appears in the same book), "The Prayer of any Guild or Society," and the Grace.

An alternative office is given as the same Litany of General Intercession, hymn-address-hymn, and "Prayers and Benediction."

I have never seen the use of this office as such, and I don't know how often it was used and how well it was received. At least it was one effort in the history of liturgy to provide material for such an office. (The Book of Occasional Services contains no equivalent.) There are also echoes of what's already mentioned in this thread, and it's a possible source of material for more-or-less direct use or inspiration for adaptations.

[ 21. April 2012, 13:03: Message edited by: Bos Loquax ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I like PCCs to be preceded by Mass.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Book of Common Prayer

Here on page 816 you will find Prayers, for the church, for mission, for clergy and people, for the parish, for a church meeting, and for the unity of the church.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

In our diocese, the parish council is lay chaired, so pre/post meeting devotions are led by the rector and never by the chair of the meeting. Perhaps a useful separation of powers for some!

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