Thread: Of Presbyterians and prayerbooks Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Or my attempt of not hijacking the Parson's Handbook thread.

Over there, I mentioned I'm writing "my own" prayerbook (in Portuguese), picking and adapting prayers and forms from various sources and trying to apply a Reformed theology to the whole thing. (We should come back to this later. Ideas from Eccles sages will always be most welcome!).

It makes me think, however, on how successful can a Presbyterian prayerbook be, in terms of widespread adoption and/or influence.

The 1970 UPCUSA Worshipbook, awful as it was said to be, had the merit of spreading the historical fourfold Ordo, via its Service for the Lord's Day, more widely than previous BCWs ever managed to do, finally supplanting (?) the revivalist hymn sandwich as the main Sunday service. Doubtlessly influential.

Still, the book itself wasn't widely adopted, neither as a hymnal (there being many shacks which hold firmly to the 1955 Hymnbook to this day), nor as a service book.

I believe many shacks held, then, to the traditional-language, Anglican-leaning 1946 BCW for Baptisms and other occasional services, which is [the only case] when most Presby ministers will make the point of having the prayerbook in hand and follow it. 1993 BCW seems to be the most widely adopted book now, anyway.

We could also try and get to know if a Presbyterian prayerbook was ever adopted in the pews, for congregational following and participation. Discardable bulletins with the full service (including music!) seem to be accepted as kosher throughout Presbydom. Couldn't then the idea of pew prayerbooks ever fly, for environment's sake if not for anything else?

Should I fear Jenny Geddes's ghost throwing my chair at me, Poltergeist-like, when I go to bed? [Razz]
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Right lets start with
The book of Common Worship 1993 PCUSA has an order of morning and evening worship with psalms for use with a daily lectionary. Published by Westminster/John Knox Press, and is good for developing your arm muscles. I have just found that the print it separately as well

The URC publication "Worship from the URC" has an order of morning and evening worship.

Iona community does as well, but the morning is more standard than the evening, I am not really familiar with the Wee Worship Book but am with the main Abbey one.

Then there are two resources here.

More individual but a classic A Diary of Private Prayer by John Baillie.

There is even an Anabaptist Prayer book
There are a couple more resources.

I suspect the Church of Scotlands book of common order does not have daily prayer but I do not have a copy so am not sure.

Jengie
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
It might also be worth looking up Knox's 'Book of Common Order' (c.1560) on the internet as that will give you an authentically Reformed shape for the liturgy. As I understand it, the usual form of service was used both for 'the Dry Service' and for the Eucharist, on weekdays as well as on the Lord's Day.

PD
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I have written my own prayer book for personal use and suspect I am in the process of writing a substantially different one. I will check and see if the old one is on a disk drive at work if people are interested but I don't hold out much hope.

Jengie
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Right lets start with
The book of Common Worship 1993 PCUSA has an order of morning and evening worship with psalms for use with a daily lectionary. Published by Westminster/John Knox Press, and is good for developing your arm muscles. I have just found that the print it separately as well

The URC publication "Worship from the URC" has an order of morning and evening worship.

Iona community does as well, but the morning is more standard than the evening, I am not really familiar with the Wee Worship Book but am with the main Abbey one.

Then there are two resources here.

More individual but a classic A Diary of Private Prayer by John Baillie.

There is even an Anabaptist Prayer book
There are a couple more resources.

I suspect the Church of Scotlands book of common order does not have daily prayer but I do not have a copy so am not sure.

Jengie
No, the current Book of Common Order does have "A Daily Service". It also has "An Order for Daily Devotion: Morning and Evening" intended to be used by individuals, families or other small groups.

Maxwell's edition of Knox's 1556 Genevan Service Book (the basis of the 1560 BCO) has the Sunday service, but makes no mention of anything for weekdays.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Thanks for the input, folks!

I understand it was Calvin's custom to use the same service order for both the Lord's Day and weekday services. Looks like the difference was the use of set prayers in the Lord's Day and extempore or especially prepared prayers on weekdays. Or so saith Baird.

I think having the Antecommunion-based hymn sandwich everyday (and as every single service the church holds) is a bit of an overkill. Even if it is the current practice across the spectrum in Brazilian Presbyterianism. Except for the many shacks which have already replaced it with P&W-Sermon-Benediction, of course.

So I intend to have a Daily Office section in my book, with Morning and Evening Prayer, based on the 1993 BCW, 1662, 1928 and 1979 BCPs, and Lutheran (IELB and IECLB) Matins and Vespers. The local Anglican book is an abridged version of 1979 with a very strong A-C flavour, so I'll just pass it by. I'll have to take a look at the books Jengie Jon recommended, especially Webber's!

Besides its ideal daily use in the church and at home, I'll recommend the Daily Office for use as the opening devotions for Sunday School and Session and Presbytery meetings. The first service for Presbytery, Synod and GA meetings should be the Eucharist, though.

I've already taken a shot on some rites in the last four years, which are all pending revision:

1. The Divine Liturgy, an Eucharistic form based on the BCW, English and American BCPs, the American Lutheran 1917 Common Service, RCA, CRCNA and French Reformed forms.

I've thrown in a Protestantised version of the Orthodox Litany for Peace for good measure as a solemn alternative to the threefold Kyrie Eleison, just after the Collect for Purity and before the General Confession.

Eucharistic Prayer I is 1928 BCP's, translated, with an added Preface for the Feast of the Protestant Reformation by yours truly.

2. Solemnization of Marriage, in two rites. Rite I is a full Nuptial "Mass" based on the Divine Liturgy. Rite II is your average simple wedding service.

Sources were the same as the DL's above, plus some Roman Catholic alternative prayers. Most of the prayers and blessings have four alternatives, from Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran and Reformed sources.

3. Christian Initiation, with forms for Infant Baptism, Adult Baptism + Confirmation/Public Profession of Faith and a simple Reception of Members by Letter of Transfer. I've been thinking about adding a form for the Renewal of Baptismal Vows, for use in the appropriate liturgical seasons and following the restoration to communion of persons under disciplinary penalties.

Sources were the same as the DL. But I think combining the Preparation for Baptism from the RCA with the BCW's Baptismal service (including a Prayer of Thanksgiving over the water which goes over the aquatic themes of the entire history of salvation) made the service too long and overloaded with words. Which is a very Presbyterian thing, I believe...

4. The Ordinal, with a full DL for the Ordination of Ministers of Word and Sacrament, a simpler rite for the Ordination of Elders and Deacons, one for the Licensing of Preachers (our "transitional diaconate") and another for the Commissioning of lay Missionaries and Evangelists.

We could go over all of them together, should it be happen to be fun for you guys!

Wow, long post. Got carried away, sorry! [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by Berwickshire (# 15761) on :
 
I don’t know if a Scottish “take” on this is relevant but it seems to me that presbyterianism and the conventicle are not the least of Scotland’s gifts to the world.

Dr Knox was born and brought up with prayer books (the new-printed Aberdeen Breviary). There were thousands of Missals available, new printings and old manuscripts. Dr Knox’s claim to fame was the systematic destruction of Scotland’s liturgical and cultural heritage. The authentic presbyterian genius is, surely, to burn prayer books rather than hand them out to a congregation.

The famous Jenny Geddes you opened with seems to have based her contribution to the enhancement of the liturgy of the church in Scotland less on the contents of the Dean of Edinburgh’s book than the mere fact that it was a book in the first place. The authentic presbyterian tradition Mistress Geddes knew and loved was for a minister to go off extempore: there is a wonderful collection of “Scotch presbyterian eloquence” to illustrate the genre. The sacred stool of the Blessed Jenny has long been exposed as a relic for the veneration of presbyterian pilgrims to Edinburgh.

In the tradition Dr Knox grew up in, public worship was divided between the minister and the parish clerks, they being the only people likely to be able to sing from a book in a generally illiterate society but with all sorts of popular rituals for congregational participation. Dr Knox seems to have done his best to end laywomen's participation entirely and stamp on laymen by reducing the choir to one, producing the classic presbyterian dialogue between minister and a single clerk, while the populace had edification thrust upon them.

Dr Knox’s own immortal contribution to the world’s liturgies, the “Book of Common Order” is no sort of congregational book. Those who have just suggested it might be any idea to look to that “wee bookie” for congregational use can hardly have read it. It is 265 pages long and, when the long-awaited “THE END” eventually comes in sight, that liturgical explicit comes 235 pages too late. The Communion goes on for pages without so much as an “Amen” out of the mute congregation. Marriage manages 30 words for the contracting parties to offer while the interminable ministerial voice draws breath. The sick are “visited” without adding one word to the minister’s monologue of visitation. The only service in the “wee” bookie which gets near dialogue is the “ordination” where a Monstrous Regiment of Ministers talk among themselves. There was always the danger that over and above the Book of Monologues a minister might be taken with delerium extemporens, should the spirit so move his heart. Fairly got old Jenny going that did. The best a congregation, as such, is ever allowed is a couple of psalms, when they get to repeat the metrical dirges the clerk “lines out”.

The sad news is that the authentic Presbyterian genius is (a) to burn the people’s books and (b) for one individual to make congregational worship as near impossible as may be. Dozing quietly is the traditional refuge from Scotch presbyterian eloquence, or to escape to the ‘piskies. If it is congregational worship you want, get back to the catholic books. ECUSA (the “P” in “PECUSA” is silent) will help. Dreamer is the perfect guide: numquam reformata quia numquam deformata.

So no need to say sorry if a presbyterian minister goes on too much, that is just that scoundrel Knox's bad influence, easily repented of. Sorry if I have taken up the conventicle’s time, not to their edification.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Episcoterian:

The I don't know if Divine Liturgy translates well in Portuguese, but "Divine Service for the Celebration of the Lord's Supper" would probably not scare the horses so much. It's a more Presby phrasing, at least in English.

On baptism, I heartily recommend the Reformed Church of France's baptismal blessing, said after the act itself and before the walkabout (another practice I heartily recommend).

For you, little child, Jesus Christ has come, he has fought, he has suffered. For you he entered into the shadows of Gethsemane and the terror of Calvary; for you he uttered the cry ‘it is finished.’ For you he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and there for you he intercedes. For you, even though you do not yet know it yet, little child, but in this way the Word of the Gospel is made true, "We love Him because He first loved us."

This was used at the baptism of my niece two weeks ago, Ma Preacher loved it. This blessing is becoming very popular in Reformed/Presby circles and frequently appears in English-language service revisions.

I intend to get it put into the United Church of Canada's service book at the next revision, likely in the next 15 years or so.
 
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
Episcoterian, you might like to have a look at this resource for your section on the renewal of baptismal vows:

Liturgy for the Reaffirmation of Baptismal Vows.

The liturgy itself is simple enough, but it was developed by the Joint Commission on Doctrine of the Church of Scotland and the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, with input also from the Scottish Episcopal Church. It is therefore a truly ecumenical resource, and has been used to very moving effect in joint worship.

As the preamble says, the liturgy "is gladly offered for use beyond the bounds of the two denominations on any ecumenical occasion when it is appropriate to recall and reaffirm our baptism." So you are very welcome to it. [Smile]
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Berkwickshire, your historical analysis is, of course, accurate.

Calvin's liturgy, and Knox's own, were little more than long, dull, catechetical monologues by the minister. Apart from Psalm singing, the only vocal parts by the people were the Creed and the Lord's Prayer and, after Westminster, often not even those.

You said it correctly: the responses in the medieval Mass were sung by the choir or said by a clerk. If the Lutherans and Anglicans opted for giving the clerk's parts to the people, the Reformed decided to have the minister say them all.

But was this the best choice? Were they correct in their reasoning, whatever that was? Are we obliged to stick with it for ever, world without end? And, should one be fed up with the dull monologue, is swimming the Thames or the Rhine the only legitimate way?

Responsive liturgies have gradually found their way back into Presbyterian worship during the last century, to the point that a printed bulletin with the full service raises no objection whatsoever, even if the Great Prayer of Thanksgiving is prayed during the Lord's Supper.

I'm just trying to take things to their next logical step and save a few trees in the process. If bulletins are acceptable, why not a prayerbook? (provided there be room for extempore prayer and several options for the execution of the services, as the Rev. David Bannerman suggests in Worship of the Presbyterian Church).

SPK, I am familiar with this blessing, and will give it serious consideration in the Infant Baptism revision. I might do it first, instead of the Communion Service (the name of which is still open for debate; "Divine Liturgy" sounds too capital-O Orthodox in almost any language!).

Is the walkabout you refer to the minister's fetching the infant and taking it for a stroll through the nave? The current form includes it when there's a single child to be baptised, and an exchange between minister and congo when the former reaches mid-nave. I don't quite know how to do it with multiple children, without making the service too long. Any ideas?

Cottontail, thanks for the link! I loved the service! Might have to hack it a bit so it fits within Holy Communion, but I will also bring it as a stand-alone service!
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Yes, that walkabout. My niece didn't go on one as she was one of four infants we were baptizing that day (my congregation's crop of children and grandchildren runneth over!) as the minister thought it would take too long. We had lots of visitors there so he was mindful of being brief, the service clearly had to wind down by the hour mark.

If you have ideas for multiple families on walkabout I'm all ears.
 
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Yes, that walkabout. My niece didn't go on one as she was one of four infants we were baptizing that day (my congregation's crop of children and grandchildren runneth over!) as the minister thought it would take too long. We had lots of visitors there so he was mindful of being brief, the service clearly had to wind down by the hour mark.

If you have ideas for multiple families on walkabout I'm all ears.
I've never had this very nice problem! But I have duly pondered it, and can see a few possibilities.

If geography allows, just lead them on a procession round the church. Or take them up and down the aisle as the congregation sings the Aaronic blessing, or some longer hymn. Each can carry their own baby.

Alternatively, give a baby each to an elder - preferably the elder for the family in question - or perhaps to a church member or sponsor (who could be the godparent in some circumstances). That way the procession can be a bit more manageable than leading entire families up and down. Obviously, prepare everyone in advance for this!

One other possibility is to hand each baby to the elder in question directly upon its baptism, and send the elder to stand in the body of the kirk while the minister does the next one! Do that with each child in turn, so that they are all standing somewhere in the aisles when it comes to the singing of the blessing.
 
Posted by Berwickshire (# 15761) on :
 
Episcoterian:

Catholic is best: Quapropter securus judicat orbis terrarum, bonos non esse qui se dividunt ab orbe terrarum, in quacumque parte orbis terrarium; the world as a whole is sure in this judgement, those who divide themselves off from the universal come to no good, whatever little corner they inhabit.

None of the sixteenth-century choices was “best”, none was even good. But all the choices were controlled by the fact that even books printed on paper were seriously expensive and few could read. The catholic genius had been to do and sing, not to say. What else Knox destroyed was buildings, ornaments, colour and books which had been the props of a theatre of understanding for an illiterate people: bells and smells. The Annunciation-Nativity cycle. The Lent-Whitsun cycle, “Great Fast”, ending with Holy Week. A bejewelled codex held aloft to let people behold the glory of the word made manifest amongst them. I could go on (and often do) but dear old Percy Dreamer had it right, the sooner we ditch this protestant nonsense and get back where we all came from the better. The Sarum mass as performed was a sight better understanded of the people that either Trent or these dire Protestant monologues ever were. Never mind the Thames or Rhine let’s see what they are up to in the Tiber and (if it doesn’t bring too much anti-Russian ire down on my head) the Volga.

With a multi-lingual congregation and a catholic style of liturgical worship there is nothing else for it but weekly leaflets: simple books soon get boring and no congregation outside a theological college ever found its way through “Common Worship’s” options. With a leaflet, “been” is “been”. Speak and my “bean” is his “bin”, which is where I put the rubbish and she puts the trash. Native-speakers can just about understand each other, learners have no hope. I don’t really think feminist “Four Bears” make much more sense to children than chauvinist “Four Fathers”. A weekly leaflet is essential: sling in the bi-lingual lessons and anyone can read and everyone can follow. Put in the hymns and that’s another book you don’t need and you can pull hymns from anywhere. I would never fret about trees: forestry, papermaking and recycling help the economy go round. E-mail a weekly PDF and you can keep people feeling in touch, prompt the wavering to come and give the subscribers their money’s worth. Do it Slavonic-English with John I:1-14 and they can take it home and learn 9 different Slavonic declensions and 5 English determiners. Make the visit worthwhile, add value. Never know your luck they might study the texts. For my money go for leaflets over books but get away from Dr Knox as far and as fast as possible. Scotland drew the short straw with that one.

We never can be too catholic. Gather enough discarded leaflets and you can burn the obnoxious old bigot in effigy and smell the sulphur, or sulfur as the case may be.

And speaking of brimstone, Сын проповедника трезв, (you know who you are) sorry if I have poked my unwelcome little Slavophile head into your innocent “Presbyterian thread”. Some uppity natives just don’t respect Reservations these days. But then again with Reservation you never can be too catholic.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Berwickshire:

You do know that the Scots Reformation was a people's movement, right? It was a bottom-up affair. It also led to the creation of universal public education in Scotland in the 1600's, centuries before anywhere else in Europe.

Jenny Geddes was as common as they came and the riot she started was based on popular support.

Should you wish to relive the Scots Reformation, the appropriate venue is Purgatory if you wish civil discussion, Hell if you desire full and frank discussion.

Otherwise your contributions here have been entirely unproductive, belligerent in tone and unappreciated.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Only one point I'd like to make in Knox's favour. His First Book of Discipline (1560), as quoted by Bannerman (1884, p. 8), read:

quote:
Lest that the Word of God and ministration of the Sacraments by unseemliness of the place come in contempt, of necessity it is that the Kirk and place where the people ought publicly to convene be with expedition repaired, (...) and have such preparation within as appertaineth as well to the majesty of the Word of God, as unto the ease and commodity of the people.
I don't think the destruction of churches went well with his own views.

I'm all for a simple, dignified catholicity in worship, allowing for the full, active and conscient participation of both clergy and people.

But I also appreciate and value the richness of diversity between all different catholic (indeed, Christian) traditions and their rites (or lack of), be they traditional Pentecostal, happy-clappy Charismatics, suit-and-tie Bible-thumping Baptists, robe-and-stole Presbymethegationalists, surplice-and-tippet lowchurchmen, chazzie-wearing MOTRs, precious lace-and-fiddleback'ers, full-tat Orthodoxen and everyone inbetween.

So I'd never presume to tell anyone of them they should catholic up (wow, a new verb!), if that meant ironing out all the rich diversity they add to the Mystical Body of Our Lord.

So, I'm glad to be a Reformed Catholic, or, as SPK puts it, a devout Scoto-Catholic (even if my Presby heritage is anything but Scottish).
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I did up a Sung Communion Service for use in my own church, the UCCan hymn book has sung settings for the Gloria, Sanctus & Benedictus, Great Amen, etc., not that we ever use them. It was a challenge waiting for me just to put them into the proper context.

Such singing of well-known and scriptural phrases seems especially suited to such as Easter. On a bright and sunny Easter of course you want to sing at celebration of the Lord's Supper. You start the service with a blast of song and you don't stop. [Smile]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
SPK: (Responding to your post at 00:21)

Let the hosts do the hosting, OK?

Thank you,

Mamacita, Eccles Host

[ 04. May 2012, 01:34: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Berwickshire:

I see that, with 33 posts spread across 2 years, you don't have much experience posting in Ecclesiantics. Let me strongly suggest that you do the following:
Many thanks.

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Voices United at least has some Communion settings and further service music. You can teach the people. (I'm thinking about translating them ever since I bought the book).

Novo Cântico's service music section has one Offertory response ("All things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee") and three Amens (Danish threefold, a fourfold and a sevenfold by Stainer). And that's it.

There are also, scattered through the book, two Gloria Patrii (Meineke and Greatorex), one Sanctus (Stainer) and one (non-metrical) Te Deum (William Jackson).

Of all these, only the Danish threefold Amen is regularly used throughout Presbydom, after the final Benediction (ordinarily, the Grace; Aaronic Blessing in solemn occasions).

I've heard the Gloria Patri sang in both tunes. The Sanctus and especially the Te Deum never seem to see the light of the day.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Sorry to doublepost. I've lost the edit window.

NC's Sanctus is John Bacchus Dyke's, not Stainer's.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
Sorry to doublepost. I've lost the edit window.

NC's Sanctus is John Camidge's, not Stainer's.

 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
You bought it? [Eek!]

Wow. You are committed. [Overused]

Just overlook some of their more cringe-worthy edits. I hope to reverse what they did to #541 next revision.

If you don't have much in your hymnal, why not add a Music Supplement to your project that can be used by organists, other musicians and congregations. Words for the minister, music for the people. It would get more people that just ministers interested in it if you get musicians hooked.

I'm trying to get my congregation started on Communion Setting B. We might try that next time we host Presbytery as the Minister likes to do odd things for Presbytery. He and Presbytery have a complicated relationship.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I have participated in a fully sung Reformed Communion, it was also Charismatic!

Seriously if you are looking for musical settings for bits of liturgy then places like Taize and Iona are good bets, plus Paul Bateman seems to have Reformed connections and to write pieces. The URC hymnbook has a Kyrie, Gloria, Agnus Dei and Lord I am not worthy by him. Erik Routley has composed a Sanctus, I suspect he did more.

Another Reformed composer is Peter Cutts but I have not traced any of his settings of the liturgy.

Jengie
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Actually given his works list Paul Bateman definitely has URC connections. Therefore it does make it rather odd that his first work in 1974 seems to be a "Rock Mass".

If you want something more esoteric then John Tavener also has Reformed connections, and some would argue that while a person may leave the Reformed tradition, it is not so easy for the Reformed tradition to leave the person. Certainly he is one of those who I picked up before I knew this connection.

Jengie
 
Posted by Berwickshire (# 15761) on :
 
Episcoterian

“Only one point I'd like to make in Knox's favour. His First Book of Discipline (1560), as quoted by Bannerman (1884, p. 8), read: ‘Lest that the Word of God and ministration of the Sacraments by unseemliness of the place come in contempt, of necessity it is that the Kirk and place where the people ought publicly to convene be with expedition repaired, (...) and have such preparation within as appertaineth as well to the majesty of the Word of God, as unto the ease and commodity of the people.’ I don't think the destruction of churches went well with his own views.”

Yes, although the Victorian edition has been superseded, in all essentials you are right. It is an interesting passage and repays consideration. Dr Knox is stating an axiom: it would be curious indeed for Christian ministers to advocate the destruction of churches. Severe damage had been caused by Anglo-Scottish wars to e.g. Berwickshire’s (often thatched) churches. Given Dr Knox never advocated destruction, the stubborn fact remains that, somehow or other Scotland’s medieval churches have largely disapperaed while (Episcopalian) England’s have, very largely, survived.

Dr Knox preached only against “idolatry”. He preached, however, to what he called (not without wry affection) a “rascal multitude” and to his professed horror they misunderstood the sermon. He repeated it several times in different places and it still had much the same effect each time. I may well be in deep trouble for using Scots rather than the Standard English Dr Knox did so much to foster (as in your quotation), but Scots was the speech of his rascal multitude. They, for example, “gaed to Sanct Androis, daug the cathedral doun, gowden pyx, tunakyls and dalmatyks rippt up wi sic disgraces”. Rascals!

At a guess, you read “Kirk and place where the people ought publicly to convene” as meaning “church”. In context, it probably reflects convening in the naves (the parishioners’ financial responsibility) as distinct from the chancels (the parson or appropriator’s charge). Dr Knox was struggling to impose a revolution in the teeth of much popular and aristocratic opposition and the “teinds” (tithes) were already some 92% appropriated - and still in catholic and/or aristocratic hands. The revolutionaries were lucky to extract 15-20%. With catholic worship proscribed under fierce penalties, it followed liturgically redundant chancels were unsupportable except as aristocratic pews or (often in Scotland) burial places.

Architectural thinking is that liturgical, altar-focused, worship operates best in a long-ish oblong (2.2: 1) for “mystery” and popular processions. Radical, minister-focused worship does best in a square-ish box (1.2:1) with a vast pulpit-cum-clerk’s desk facing the gentry in a the chancel or gallery, separate from a hoi polloi condemned to “the view from the pew”. Unwashed bodies, in woolen clothes, in a wet climate cannot have been pleasant for a purely static service of any length – catholic incense had a fumigatory more than ritual purpose.

The process of destruction was probably for the rascal mob to try first to loot or destroy liturgical “kit”, while a still-catholic majority attempted to rescue something and, ultimately, spirit it safely abroad to the Scots colleges: Dr Knox’s dry observation was that one got rid of rooks (black monks and priests) by fouling their nests. The altars stripped, chancels fell into disuse and it made sense to demolish naves and construct square preaching chambers out of the rubble, with galleries for the gentry. Little that is medieval survived (and much of that is heavy Victorian restoration). The tale of presbytery and prayer books.

Cultural theory is developing interesting perspectives on liturgical developments. What attracted my attention to this thread was your (to me) extraordinary linking of Presbyterianism and Prayer Books. I was not the first, as it happens, to mention Dr Knox in this thread. More curious still: Knox even remotely connected with prayer books for popular participation! Oddly enough one can venture an approximate calculation of the impact of historical presbyerianism on Scottish prayerbooks, few enough of which survived at home but some of which were preserved in England or in the flotsam of Scots colleges abroad. Present survival against contemporary inventories has been estimared at a maximum in any known case of 8%. Studies put present survivors at some 300 codices (give or take). The number of churches has been put at 1300. Assume 20 volumes as the basic “kit” for liturgical requirements and thus only 300 of some 26,000 have survived. Cultural attrition of approximately 98%.

I am pretty certain iconoclasm was at the back of it: Knox (like Stalin) was a clerk of the old order and such a background is liable, on embracing new doctrines, to produce furious and iconoclastic revolutionaries: I’ll resist the obvious Slavonic comment, roughly, that Uncle Joe’s own hands were always kept clean. The KGB were his rascals.

It is interesting that, even though the old denominational myths may linger in some quarters, presbytery is moving to prayer book. From my perspective, in practice that must bear more than a passing resemblance to moving "back" to a lost past.

Considering the hour, I’ll resist the temptation of a sinful Cyrillic ******* and transliterate Gudnaĭt.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Berwickshire,

You seem to have problems with the directions made by my esteemed fellow host in her post above. The rules of the ship require posts to be made in English or for passages in other languages to be provided with translations. Some of our shipmates do not have English as a first language and this is a courtesy to them.

As you seem to be fairly new, I don't want to be overly harsh but let me draw your attention to Commandment 6 of the Ship's 10 Commandments: Respect the Crew. When a host or admin posts directions, guidance or a specific ruling then that is to be followed and we will take a dim view of griping or sideways objections. If you wish to query any ruling you may contact one of the hosts by PM (hosts are listed at the top of each board) or you may raise the matter by starting a thread in the Styx.

I hope that that is clear.

seasick, Ecclesiantics host

[ 05. May 2012, 07:26: Message edited by: seasick ]
 
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
One of the strongest parts of our Common Order is the section on funeral liturgies. Are you thinking of including some of these in your book?

As well as outlining two full Orders for funerals, the red book also includes an Order for use in Distressing Circumstances, an Order for the Funeral of a Child, and an Order for the Funeral of a Still-born Child,. Very usefully, it also has a range of suggested prayers for different circumstances, such as after a wasting illness, after violence, and after a suicide.

I positively clung to Common Order for my first year or so of funerals, and found that it sees you right in most circumstances. (Although it goes a bit mad around the Committal, suggesting a final hymn BEFORE the Committal, which works if all are then traipsing out of the church to the graveside, but not where everything is happening within the same Crematorium service.) The orders and prayers are tremendously well-written, and the various suggestions can be mixed and matched and personalised.

One thing it does lack, though, is an order for a home funeral, or for prayers in the home before the funeral. This is tradition in some parts of Scotland, which can mean that on the day of the funeral there are in fact three services: prayers in the home, then the church service, and then the service at the crematorium (which is often the only part of the funeral many people will get to, so they can't just be fobbed off with a 5 minute committal!) On the few occasions I have done this, I have felt myself simply running out of things to say! So if anyone has a liturgy for a home funeral or prayers, I would be grateful to be pointed in its direction.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Tangent alert
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire
Given Dr Knox never advocated destruction, the stubborn fact remains that, somehow or other Scotland’s medieval churches have largely disappeared while (Episcopalian) England’s have, very largely, survived.
Cultural difference perhaps, but how sure are you that medieval poverty might not have more to do with it? There are a lot of 'Airfix' churches in rural Wales that are very obviously on ancient sites, but where most, if not all, of the stonework looks nineteenth century. Outside medievally rich areas like East Anglia, the Cotswolds or parts of Yorkshire, many medieval churches were small and grubby. What you see in England was largely rebuilt in the nineteenth century according to 'best' gothic principles. Eighteenth century England and Wales had a very different attitude to ancient buildings, which was less adulatory of the medieval past and much more similar to Scotland's.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
It's true that by and large the medieval churches of Scotland were not as grand as many in England.It's also true that in the Presbyterian form of worship there was absloutely no need for a grand church.All that was needed was an area large enough for a preacher to be heard.There were no microphones in these days.The old cathedral of St Mungo in Glasgow,as well as the High Kirk of St Giles in Edinburgh are two of the larger churches to survive more or leas intact,but were divided into smaller churches,only being restored as one church in the course of the 19th century.

Paisley Abbey is another church which has survived but in most cases the local community would worship in one part of the church leaving the rest to fall down, as was the case with Melrose Abbey and Jedburgh Abbey before the ruins of the building caused the community to leave the medieval building completely and build another.

It's also the case that there was,and perhaps still is,little of the sense of the sacred attached to buildings,in the Presbyterian form of Christianity,though what sense of the sacred which was left caused the ruins of medieval churches to be used as graveyards.

At least as far as the Presbyterian Reformation in Scotland is concerned there was little deliberate destruction of churches,apart from some 'cleansing of idolatry'.The pitiful ruins of St Andrew's cathedral do not speak of deliberate destruction,but simply of indifference and neglect,lack of pride in a building which could not but remind people of the Catholic past.
 
Posted by Berwickshire (# 15761) on :
 
No tangent alert: comes well inside P&P

Enoch,

Cultural difference perhaps, but how sure are you that medieval poverty might not have more to do with it? While wealth (and poverty) are, as you rightly suggest, always reflected in worship, a recent AHRC project suggests medieval Scotland was not invariably poorer than England. “Benchmarking” at QUB ranks the Archdeaconry of Lothian, shilling-per-square-mile, behind East Anglia but equal to the Home Counties, with Boston the second but Berwick fifth-richest “British” or Irish port. Far from small and grubby, seventeen Lothian churches exceed benchmark by a factor of ten or more: expect up to 17 first-rate presbyteries and 17 sets of prayer books to survive. Ceteris paribus (if the expression be allowed) one ought to be able to sift out culture and accident in survival patterns from the actual figures: accuracy not adulation.

What you see: for liturgical presbyteries, RCAHMS lists 1 of the 17 chancels as substantially medieval and still in use for worship. Ceteris paribus Leicestershire should be using no more than 1 in 17 of its greater medieval choirs: not remotely what Pevsner lists. For prayer books, Lothian’s best survival rate is 8% of inventory; for the English north-east, 37%. Pfaff accepts only one surviving Scottish book as liturgically significant. Best guesses put pre-1560 books at 1:10 Scottish to English and Pfaff knows the field: ceteris paribus his study should have found no more than 11 equally-significant English texts to discuss.

… a very different attitude to ancient buildings … less adulatory of the medieval past and much more similar to Scotland's. Different cultural forces are in play but, every which place, old buildings either fall or are cast down. Any disproportionate Scottish tendency to fall over suggests some disproportionate Scots tend to push: Knox’s rascal multitude “gaed to Sanct Androis, daug the cathedral doun.” Old books wither or are driven away. Liturgical parchment’s natural predators are damp and rodents (sheepskin makes for edible bedding) so, 37:8, either England is four times as damp as Scotland or its rodents were on a diet: Knox’s rascals “tunakyls and dalmatyks rippt”. By their figures ye shall know them. Scotland is sadly impoverished but it was not always poor. Ceteris paribus it is the mere figures, not glory, laud nor honour, which all point the one way: the cultural impact was bad in England but, ceteris paribus, catastrophic in Scotland.

The past is gone but we can learn from it liturgically (and in liturgical music), moving backwards and/or forwards. If we stick to facts rather than denominational myths, we can render tribute where due, honour to whom honour. Study liturgical custom and most Scots see – some more willingly than others - to whom fear is the due render.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Ceteris paribus (if the expression be allowed)
No it is not allowed.

You have already been asked politely TWICE to either post in English or to provide a translation.

Take this as an official warning: Once more and you'll be fish food!

Spike
SoF Admin

[ 06. May 2012, 17:53: Message edited by: Spike ]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Hostly Blue Scarf ON

Here is a reminder as to the topic of this thread:
quote:
[...] I'm writing "my own" prayerbook (in Portuguese), picking and adapting prayers and forms from various sources and trying to apply a Reformed theology to the whole thing. (We should come back to this later. Ideas from Eccles sages will always be most welcome!). It makes me think, however, on how successful can a Presbyterian prayerbook be, in terms of widespread adoption and/or influence.
Thank you to those who have made the many good, on-topic contributions to this thread.

However. If you want to pursue any discussion of English/Scottish history, church architecture, inventory of historical prayer books, or anything else that does not directly address the OP, take it elsewhere.

Hostly Blue Scarf Off
Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Cottontail, there certainly will be a Funeral section.

As with the Wedding Service, there shall be two main rites for use in the church, a Requiem "Mass" and a dry funeral. There'll also be a committal service for graveside/crematorium.

There shall be optional prayers and texts for those specially stressful deaths, but I don't think they require full services of their own.

In Brazil there's a peculiarity, though. Church funerals are becoming increasingly rare. Most often, a 10-minute service without music ends a night-long wake in a public mourning room, ("velório") within or beside the cemetery.

Roman Catholics may have masses said on the deceased's behalf later. On the Protestant side, though, if a church service hasn't been held with the body present, there certainly won't be a memorial in its absence either, which is a shame.

Home funerals, common in prior centuries, have vanished entirely since the advent of aforementioned velórios. To our loss, I believe. Death, instead of a natural, if sometimes sad, part of everyday life, is being (has been) pushed out of it into pastel-coloured, barren secular buildings, devoid of any religious consideration whatsoever, to become something we don't ever think or talk about. And so, we've forgotten how to handle it. (And don't get me started on webcast wakes).

But I digress. A Christian's funeral service (and pre-service wake, if any) should be in church, and it's proper and laudable that it be a Communion service.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
The various pastoral prayers in Celebrate God's Presence: A Book of Services are along the line of the Kirk's practice, and a similar benefit to those who simply need a hand.

Have you given any thought to some prayer or pastoral directions for Elders engaged in pastoral visits?
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Episcoterian, I can't speak of Brazil at all but, in the US, I do firmly believe that Presbyterians could potentially work well with a hymnal that includes a more comprehensive liturgical section.

I think it would end up being used like the United Methodist hymnal: churches use the bulletin for the usual calls to worship and unison prayers, but turn to the liturgy in the hymnal for the Great Thanksgiving at communion.

I would keep it short and sweet. Provide just enough so that the congregation has what they need, and so that any unenthusiastic cleric has just what he needs. For those clergy who are a bit more enthusiastic about liturgy, provide a more comprehensive, but totally optional, altar book.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Has Presbyterianism, or have parts of it, given up on metrical psalters? I gather that wouldn't be part of a modern Presbyterian worship book, but I'd love to find out I'm wrong about that.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Oblatus, I can't answer for Presbyterianism elsewhere, but around here, metric Psalms have never been an important part of our worshipping identity.

When the first missionary set foot on these shores, the English hymn and revival gospels were the order of the day. They are actually treated as one and the same thing, all considered to be equally hinos (as opposed to cânticos, which are p&w choruses).

We have twenty or so metric Psalms and other biblical texts in our hymnal, but all scattered around the book under various subject headings.

There are a handful of radicals in the Northeast which advocate a capella exclusive Psalmody and are trying to prepare a Brazilian Psalter based on the Genevan book.

I wish them all the best, but, "from attending their services (and listening to their singing), deliver me, Good Lord"!
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Metrical psalms were big in the Presby tradition until the late 19th century. One wedge between the Kirk and the (Wee) Free Kirk was the issue of hymns. The former gradually adopted them, the latter allowed hymns only rcently.

<tangent>
FWIW, High Anglicans were psalmody only until the 1810s and 20s when hymns began to creep in mainly in the form of 'cleaned up' versions of mediaeval hymns, and carefully selected Methodist and Evangelical texts. The first hymnbook in my home parish consisted of all 150 Psalms in Tate and Brady's 'New Version' (metrical) and about 100 hymns mainly from ancient sources.
</tangent>

PD

[ 09. May 2012, 05:09: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Psalms have a sad-and-happy history in the UCCan. The original Hymnary of 1930 introduced Anglican Chant settings mixed with metrical settings. Anglican Chant never took off as a musical tradition in the United Church and it led to a decline in psalmnody. The next hymn book, the Hymn Book of 1970, produced jointly with the Anglicans in expectation of a merger, had very few psalms in it. It was expected that these would be placed in a new Prayerbook for the merged church but the merger never took place and the book never came out.

When our current hymn book, Voices United was being compiled, the number one request received from general congregations, from ministers and music leaders was that there be a proper psalter. As such, the 700's and early 800's are a full psalter with responsive psalms and metrical versions, often from the Scots Psalter but sometimes with newer songs. The later 800's are canticles.

We're much happier with the psalm selection now and sing out of the psalter happily. You can take Dumfermline, the Old Hundredth and the Old 134th out of our cold, dead hands!
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Metrical psalms were big in the Presby tradition until the late 19th century. One wedge between the Kirk and the (Wee) Free Kirk was the issue of hymns. The former gradually adopted them, the latter allowed hymns only recently.
PD
The first edition of the CoS Church Hymnary (c.1900) came bound up with the metrical psalter, tunes suggested for every psalm. The second (c.1930) also had the complete psalter, but with an index of psalms/portions 'most suitable for use in public worship' - which suggests that the remainder were judged 'least suitable', I suppose. The third (c.1973) was available with the complete psalter as in the second ed., but a selection of psalms/portions (including some prose/Gelineau versions) was included, scattered by theme/time of year throughout the book. The fourth (2005) has a selection of psalms of all sorts in numerical order at the front of the book. This suggests that metrical psalmody continues. Or at the editors of the hymnary think it does - or at least should.

If the RCL is followed, then the psalm indicated by that could be sung in the 'gradual' position. Trouble with CH4 is that the selections don't necessarily include the items set in the RCL. Those using the book that SPK mentions wouldn't have that problem, of course.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Martin L, there seems to be wisdom in your words.

Looking back, the closest our Methodists and Presbyterians got to handing liturgies to the people was the service appendix in Hinário Evangélico com Ritual, a 1940 pan-Protestant endeavour. It's still the Methodist Church's official hymnal.

It brings many thematically-composed responsive readings, and has only one type of service, the five-part Hymn Sandwich based on Isaiah 6 as Antecommunion. Communion, which might be tugged to its end, is a stripped-down version of the old Methodist Anaphora, with no spoken input from the congregation apart from the Lord's Prayer and final Amen.

Even if its texts have all but been abandoned, the five-part Sandwich's structure based on Isa. 6 (Praise, Confession, Adoration, Edification and Dedication) is still the norm among Presbyterians, Methodists and even Baptists.

So yes, there might be something worth pursuing in appending at least the Ordinary of the Daily Office and Holy Communion in a hymnal and referring the people to it. If it helps spreading the historical Ordo, it will more than make up for the people not having the rest of the prayerbook with them.

Good thing I was also working on a hymnal to go with the prayerbook (433 titles and counting)!

Work on the altar book goes on, though!
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Voices United has the RCL in the back. Conveniently I look up the psalm, find the page number of actual reading, and if there is a metrical version decide if I can convince the organist that it is worthy to sing.

Our minister went on sabbatical so I am doing worship prep in his stead. I have revealed to several members of our congregation the existence of the RCL, its location in our hymn book and therefore that the scripture readings do not [necessarily] come from the minister's head.

I may have violated the first rule of Clergy Club. Oh well, I'm not clergy, just related to them. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
Martin L, there seems to be wisdom in your words.
Heh...I've been trying to tell people that for years.

I think you will need to be very deliberate in trying not to turn people off to your idea. For many churches, I suspect this will mean that your dream prayerbook will be simply too much scripted liturgy. All of the ideas above are good, and I think a prayerbook (of the Book of Common Worship variety) would be a Good Thing. That being said, save it for a certain crowd. For the rest, tread lightly and provide something simple within the hymnal.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
You could take the route that Celebrate God's Presence takes and have an outline of what a service (such as Communion) should contain and then have a list of options. CGP has a Eucharistic Prayer K! It would help those of the Presby persuaion warm to the book if they knew it was there to help them achieve a certain level of "good" (helpful after a stressful week of funerals, marriages and pastoral visiting) while having enough options and guidance so that it doesn't feel that words are being stuffed in their mouths.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Following the BCW's example, I always have the service outline before the service text. Can we go over the one for the Divine Service, as a starting exercise?

INITIAL RITES

Bell ringing, candle lighting, private devotions etc.

Prelude
Introit (not necessarily the minor proper; around here, any anthem/chorus sung before the formal start of the service counts as the Introit)
Entrance Hymn

Trinitarian Invocation
Votum (Our help is in the Name of the Lord etc.)
Proper Sentences of Scripture

Collect for Purity, Prayer of Preparation or (in solemn occasions) the Litany of Peace
Kyrie Eleison (except if the Litany was prayed)

Call to Penance
Silent Confession of Sins, then a Public one (kneeling)
Comfortable Words + Absolution/Assurance of Pardon
Gloria in Excelsis, Te Deum or other Hymn of Praise

LITURGY OF THE WORD

Dialogue and Collect of the Day
First Lesson
Psalm
Second Lesson
Gospel Acclamation and Reading

Prayer for Illumination
Sermon
Creed
Sermon Hymn

Intercessory Prayers (kneeling?)

LITURGY OF THE LORD'S SUPPER

The Peace
Offertory (also Tithes' Collection)
(Skip to Final Rites in case of no Communion)

Dialogue and Sursum Corda
Preface/Proper Preface
Sanctus + Benedictus
Anamnesis
Epiclesis?
Words of Institution (Breaking of Bread, Lifting of the Chalice) (kneeling!)
Epiclesis?
Memorial Acclamation (The Mystery of Faith)
The Lord's Prayer
Amen
Agnus Dei or other Eucharistic Hymn

Communion
Post-Communion Prayer

FINAL RITES

Nunc Dimittis
Final Prayer
Benediction
Amen
Dismissal Hymn

***

I've been reading Ronald P. Byars's Lift your hearts on high and am now divided as to the "proper" placement (and/or division) of the Epiclesis. Thoughts on that?

There's no separating the breaking of the bread in full view of the people, and the pouring/lifting of the chalice from the Words of Institution, in Brazilian Presbyerianism. It's the one piece of ritual we somehow managed to keep (even where the Lord's Prayer is already lost). And it's the only way to justify discreet elevations... [Devil]
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
The UCCan puts the Epiclesis after the Words of Institution; we are of one mind with Brazil about manual acts during the Words of Institution.

What's with all the kneeling? Do you have kneelers?
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
The older shacks do (Rio Cathedral being the most obvious example), even if they are rarely used, and most times only for the intercessory prayers.

My own shack, an 85-year-old joint, had them until 2006. We traded kneelers for cushioned seats during their last refurbishment. Terrible deal if you ask me.

But we generally have no problem with kneeling. Only funny/weird thing is, when there are no kneelers, folks tend to to it facing the seats and resting their elbows on them. Okay for Confession and Intercession. But I might stick with standing for the Eucharistic Prayer... [Razz]

[ 12. May 2012, 22:43: Message edited by: Episcoterian ]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
Following the BCW's example, I always have the service outline before the service text. Can we go over the one for the Divine Service, as a starting exercise?
Nice outline. In order to shorten the entrance rites, I would suggest you create a rubric option to pray the confession/absolution between the intercessions and the peace. You will be kneeling anyway. Keep your beginning-of-service spot for the confession, but allow its alternative placement.

Also, this outline would scare away even the most bookish Presbyterian. It's great for an altar book, but you will need a less daunting one for what the common pewfolk see.

[ 13. May 2012, 02:53: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Critique from Reformed perspective, the first mode of worship is adoration not confession, our own act of confession takes place in the consideration of the overwhelming love of God.

You also don't have the assurance of pardon. The statement that basically no matter what our sins are Gods love covers them.

Without setting confession within this context I think there is something missing in the act itself. It becomes the "miserable sinner" far to easily and not as it should be a response to God's Love.


The Epiclesis comes after the words of the institution, it is the mandate for the action and therefore should be proclaimed before the action.

Jengie
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
The Confession of Sins in the beginning of the service is a holdover from Geneva. The idea seems to be "Cleanse yourself before entering the presence of Almighty God", pretty much like the OT priests had to do.

But we do acknowledge the Presence before Confession, with the "Call to Worship" block: Entrance Hymn, Invocation*, Votum*, Sentences from Scripture, Collect for Purity or Litany, Kyrie Eleison. Should it be beefier/have something else to count as Adoration?

(*) I wonder if it is too much to have both the Trinitarian Invocation and the Votum, before the Sentences.

Having the Confession of Sins early on in the service is already established practice in Brazilian Presbyterianism across the spectrum, and might be difficult to move it, but we certainly can have the option to save it for later, akin to Anglican practice.

But check again, Jengie, the Assurance of Pardon is over there, used interchangeably with "Absolution". Perhaps it should be between the Comfortable Words and the Absolution (or replace one of them?). Calvin said he wanted there to be an Absolution, but his Absolution can be considered really an Assurance of Pardon (it lacks a "priestly" declaration).

And Martin L, the hymnal order may follow this outline, then:

ENTRANCE RITES
Prelude
Entrance Hymn
Call to Worship (Invocation and Votum given, refer to Bulletin for Sentences, if used; Kyrie Eleison given)

Confession of Sins (refer to bulletin for congregational Prayer of Confession, if used)
Hymn of Praise

LITURGY OF THE WORD
First Lesson
Psalm
Second Lesson
Gospel Hymn
Gospel Reading

Sermon
Creed
Sermon Hymn

Prayers of the People (and Confession of Sins, if omitted in the beginning of the Service)

LITURGY OF THE LORD'S SUPPER
The Peace
Offertory

Great Prayer of Thanksgiving (all congregational responses given; Minister's parts alluded to, but not given, except for the Words of Institution; Agnus Dei given, but interchangeable with other hymns).
Communion

FINAL RITES
Announcements
Pastoral Prayer
Benediction and Amen
Dismissal Hymn
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
Yes, but would it not be more in keeping with reformed tradition rather to have the words of institution as the 'warrant', after the invitation but before the setting apart of the elements, and then to repeat them (with the 'manual acts') at the fraction? Putting them into the main eucharistic prayer runs the risk of implying the 'magic moment' concept of consecration. This way of doing things may cause Anglicans and others to blanch (cf this MW report), but a eucharistic prayer without them is a perfectly reasonable and indeed ancient practice - witness the Anaphora of Addai and Mari in its original form.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
The [American Presbyterian] Book of Common Worship offers multiple options, two of which are the Words of Institution being sandwiched within the wider eucharistic prayer, and the Words of Institution being skipped during the EP and later said together with the distribution.

If Episcoterian were here in the US, I'd suggest that I doubt the majority of Presbies care about that placement at all. Just put them where desired, and see what happens. If a safe option is desired, tuck an arcane rubric within 30 daunting pages of rubrics that allows the Words of Institution to be used at distribution. Chances are nobody will use it, but if somebody calls you on the placement within the EP, you can point to your attentiveness to others' needs and indicate the strategically-hidden rubric.

[ 13. May 2012, 21:11: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Firstly if Calvin's prayers are anything like the older prayer, they always started with adoration, every prayer did. So the adoration would have been in the prayer of confession even though nor formally in the order of service. This I suspect is important, Calvin's own spirituality is very much founded on the adoration of God.

The reason the words of institution are so strong in English non-conformity is that upto about seventy years they were the only liturgy most communion service.

The practice was to have a main preached service, coffee and then to have communion which was very simple indeed and attended only by the keen. The service consisted of the institution, the distribution and silence if the accounts I have heard are to be believed.

Jengie

[ 13. May 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The [American Presbyterian] Book of Common Worship offers multiple options, two of which are the Words of Institution being sandwiched within the wider eucharistic prayer, and the Words of Institution being skipped during the EP and later said together with the distribution.

If Episcoterian were here in the US, I'd suggest that I doubt the majority of Presbies care about that placement at all. Just put them where desired, and see what happens. If a safe option is desired, tuck an arcane rubric within 30 daunting pages of rubrics that allows the Words of Institution to be used at distribution. Chances are nobody will use it, but if somebody calls you on the placement within the EP, you can point to your attentiveness to others' needs and indicate the strategically-hidden rubric.
That might be the case for the PCUSA. The CoS BCO has various options, but the words of institution in the EP is not one of them. Smacks too much of 'hocus pocus', I suspect.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I brought my church's copy of Celebrate God's Presence home to do some work for the bulletin, and of course this. [Big Grin] Sad, really.

Anyway, the UCCan has a variety of Great Thanksgiving forms and freely puts the Institution Narrative in the EP itself. This may be our Methodist side showing through.

The standard outline for EP's is: Call to Give Thanks, Thanksgiving, Song of Creation (Santcus-Benedictus), Institution Narrative, Prayer of Self-Giving, Memorial Acclamation, Epiclesis, Doxology, Amen and Lord's Prayer. The Fraction follows.

Episcoterian's outline resembles the dominant "Sermon Sandwich" of the UCCan. This was the Second Order for Public Worship in the Book of Common Order, 1932, revised as the First Order for Public Worship in the Service Book, 1969 and done over again in A Sunday Liturgy, 1984.

AIUI we have had the General Confession and Assurance of Pardon up front in the first part of the service, the Gathering, since 1932. The liturgists who liked Calvin gave it to us.

The order is:

Gathering:
Introit, Greeting, Prayer of the Day, General Confession/Kyrie, Assurance of Pardon, First Hymn

Service of the Word:
OT, Psalm, Epistle, Gospel, Children's Lesson, Hymn, Anthem, Prayer for Illumination, Sermon, Hymn, Announcements, Intercessions.

Service of the Table:
Peace, Presentation of Gifts, Great Thanksgiving, Lord's Prayer, Communion, Prayer after Communion.

Sending Forth:
Hymn, Commissioning and Benediction, Amen, Postlude.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Well, having the Verba as a warrant before and outside the Eucharistic Prayer proper may be in keeping with the best Reformed tradition.

But I need to work with what I have... The Words of Institution with manual acts are currently the only Eucharistic liturgy in most of our shacks. Lucky if you have the Lord's Prayer afterwards. (And if, prior to that, you said the Apostles' Creed after the Sermon, you've pretty much reached the Everest).

Saying the WoI twice will smack of "vain repetition" (even if you alternate texts). And not having them with the manual acts will be taking away the only piece of ritual familiar to them.

So we may have the WoI-then-Prayer option as an alternate EP, but I won't risk it as the main one.

The Epiclesis will stay after the Verba, which is where it already was in my previous trials. It might wave off some of the impression that the "magic bits" happen in the WoI.

And I'll echo Byars and say the whole East vs. West controvery of spotting the Consecration in the Epiclesis or in the Institution Narrative is unnecessary. It happens in the Eucharistic Prayer, and how and when it does is a mystery to be cherished. This might as well become a Black Rubric of sorts...
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Works for me.

How about the other flavour of hymn sandwich, the one with the sermon at the end of the service? It neatly breaks down into three parts and sends forth the people with the Word of God ringing in their ears.

Hehe, our Minister convinced the Session before I sat on it to change to this format. He liked it, it also helps that he's a first rate preacher. he thought he invented it himself. [Snigger]

He wasn't one for liturgy, but then I purchased Celebrate God's Presence and our new service was the original format from the 1932 Book of Common Order. It was the United Church mainstay until 1969. I showed our Minister that he managed to reinvent the wheel. He started to listen to me about worship and liturgy after that.

Also, since our minister in on Sabbatical right now and we are taking care of ourselves, a website with weekly prayers, calls to worship, etc., a sort of Missal Lite would be helpful. When a layperson has to do the service it is nice to have a handy resource to have something "along the usual lines" to fall back on. A website would make it appear more like a suggestion than an order, as a book would.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Hedley (Christian worship, 1952) traces the Hymn Sandwich with sermon in the end back to when Morning Prayer with Sermon was the main Sunday service.

In most places in Brazil, Presbyterian services seem to follow the Antecommunion-based Hymn Sandwich, not the MP-based. The almost absolute lack of Anglicans here may have something to do with it (the Daily Office, as I said elsewhere, is almost unknown in our Protestant universe).

That said, I was quite surprised earlier this year to learn that the Sermon-in-the-end is standard practice in Campinas Seminary in all Chapel services. Which unfortunately are always dry services.

So it might as well become Rite II. Or simply a MP rubric.

Even if I don't care for this model myself. I don't think the Sermon is the most important part of the service, nor that it's the one thing people should go home thinking of. ( [Eek!] Good thing my Professor of Homiletics is not here to read me!)
 


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