|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Why does Christmas have to wait till midnight?
|
Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
|
Posted
We started our Easter Vigil at 19:30 this year, while it was still light, and went straight in to First Mass of Easter about an hour later. I understand this is common practice. Our incumbent tells me that this is based on the Jewish convention that the day starts at sun-down, so it's technically Easter in Jerusalem and we can celebrate the resurrection (that didn't happen till dawn?).
Why doesn't the same apply at Christmas. We (and most of the C of E) always wait till 23:30, so we won't be taking communion or singing "born this very morning" until after midnight, when our calendar says it's Christmas Day.
The two traditions seem contradictory.
[edited for a "?"]
[ 11. April 2012, 06:40: Message edited by: Hairy Biker ]
--------------------
there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Christmas starts at the First Evening Prayer of Christmas on 24 December. That's why King's Cambridge have their carol service on Christmas Eve afternoon. ("Christmas begins at Evening Prayer on Christmas Eve..." Common Worship: Daily Prayer page xix.)
It used to be the case that catholics could only communicate if fasting from midnight. Now the fasting rules are relaxed, I believe many continental catholics have the Mass during the Night for Christmas during the evening.
I don't think Jerusalem has anything to do with it. Eastern Orthodox Christians have always begun the day in the evening.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
|
Posted
I would discount the Jerusalem story. When it is well past midnight on Christmas morning in the antipodes, it is not yet sunset on Christmas Eve in Jerusalem.
--------------------
'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
Hmm. I've always been led to believe that Christmas begins at sundown on Dec. 24. The past couple years, Circuit Rider has had a "first vespers of Christmas" service at about 5:30 on Dec. 24 (by then it's pitch black outside). It's a franken-mass, I suppose -- evening prayer with Holy Communion.
Likewise, I understand the idea of having a Christmas service at midnight on the night of the 24th/25th. AIUI, tradition holds that Christ was born sometime about midnight (though in actuality, he was probably born on September 21-24, 11 BC, possibly on the Day of Atonement... God's sense of humor and sense of symmetry is amazing).
Likewise, tradition holds that he arose from the dead about midnight, hence the placement of the Vigil. Now, I can get folks to come to a Vigil if I plead long and hard enough. But not a midnight one. So when I held one last year, I had to opt for just after sundown on Holy Saturday. The service was the same, the meaning was the same, the effect was the same, and I can't see why it would matter either way. If we're going to celebrate Christmas early in the evening, why not Easter, too?
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
|
Posted
Midnight Mass is actually "Mass in the middle of the night" rather than Mass at 12 o'clock - and so may be celebrated as soon as it is properly dark.
I seem to remember the Pope celebrated it at around 8pm a year or two ago.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
Quite right, and it used to drive me up the wall when I was in parish ministry, that I was expected to be up til 2am and then back in church 7am. Mind you, I'd be grateful for anything now. However, I think 9 or 10pm is more reasonable.
--------------------
"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
However, I think 9 or 10pm is more reasonable.
I'm afraid so. Apparently in the good old days people would turn out in great numbers for a midnight (or at least 11 pm) mass, including all thirty little cherubs in the choir. In the early 1960s, the midnight mass from the most prominent downtown Roman Catholic church (in a small city of 45,000) was even broadcast on the radio. The featured celebrant, deacon, subdeacon, and even the guest organist (a distinguished faculty member in the conservatory) were named by the announcer, and their activities described, with a care and enthusiasm most often found in coverage of a football game. It was obviously a very festive occasion. All of 12 or 13 years old, I got a little frisson of Roman fever just listening.
It was more than I could ever bring off. One year, at least 1/3 of my choir parents refused to send their child to such a late service, and two or three younger ones who were there curled up and went to sleep in the choir stalls before it was over.
In our family, we opened our presents on Christmas day. The next-door-neighbor children opened them on Christmas Eve. I always thought that this was a little impatient and not really satisfactory. What's the fun in unwrapping lots of new toys, only to be sent to bed before you had much time to play with them? ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
Our first Mass of Christmas has settled down at 8pm on Christmas Eve - following a short service of Carols and Lessons. Last year I got about 45 at the first and 40 at Mass with a lot of folks stopping over. The Christmas morning Mass(es) are always thinly attended, but tend to be the ones attended by singletons and the older folks who do not drive at night.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Biblically speaking, the day begins at sundown and ends at the next sundown. This is why a Christmas Eve service is, if fact part of the Christmastide and not part of Advent.
In Netherlands, Argentina, Austria, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Latvia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Quebec, Romania, Uruguay, and Sweden, Christmas presents are opened mostly on the evening of the 24th, – this is also the tradition among the British Royal Family, due to their mainly German ancestry – while in Italy, the United States, the United Kingdom, Ireland, English Canada, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia, this occurs mostly on the morning of Christmas Day.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
My present parish has Christmas Eve masses beginning at 5:00, 7:30 and 10:30. Otherwise how could we accommodate the congregations and visitors?
There is also a Christmas morning mass around 10 or 10:30, It moves.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
We (and most of the C of E) always wait till 23:30, so we won't be taking communion or singing "born this very morning" until after midnight, when our calendar says it's Christmas Day.
The two traditions seem contradictory.
As others have rightly said, the liturgical day begins with Vespers in the evening. This is true in the C of E as well as anywhere else that keeps a liturgical calendar.
In the western liturgical tradition, the three Masses of Christmas are traditionally "in the night", "at cock-crow", and "of the day". There is nothing to preclude the possibility of the Mass in the night coming earlier than midnight. Its celebration then is a firmly-entrenched part of many cultures but that's all. Attaching greater significance than that to the time that you receive communion places on it a burden it was not designed to bear. Christmas begins with Vespers/Evening Prayer: not the Mass - the same as almost any other day of the year.
In fact, in the Byzantine Rite, Vespers of Christmas Day is combined with the Divine Liturgy in most years. It is an evening Liturgy, and there is no provision for another Eucharist in the middle of the night. We just don't have "midnight mass".
As for not singing the "Yea, Lord, we greet Thee" verse, I have always assumed that this is for no other reason than it makes reference to Christ being born "this happy morning".
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
In parts of continental Europe I understand it is a long tradition to have Christmas dinner on the evening of the 24th. Was that followed or preceded by a visit to church for 'midnight' mass?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Christmas 1989 we spent in Tournus in Burgundy. We had a slap up reveillon (ie Christmas Eve supper) and went to mass in the Abbey.
The service didn't exactly follow the standard order of mass, and was built around making up the crib. French RCs don't sing in church either.
We were in Germany for Christmas a few years back,and nobody seemed to celebrate mass late in the evening.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
Most parishes I've been in do their first Christmas mass around 5pm on the 24th and it's generally the "kiddies' mass." It's not a Vigil mass. I like there being a mass around midnight and most parishes provide one.
For the Easter Vigil, (which is the Mother of all Vigils, according to the missal) you have to wait until sundown because of the symbolism of the fire. Waiting till midnight for a three hour service on such a tiring week would not go down well.
[ 12. April 2012, 12:06: Message edited by: Hart ]
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
In parts of continental Europe I understand it is a long tradition to have Christmas dinner on the evening of the 24th. Was that followed or preceded by a visit to church for 'midnight' mass?
I assume it was followed by church. And you got out of the requirement to fast before Communion by saying that the day changes at midnight so if you eat and drink till 11pm or 11.30 but then take Communion a few minut4es after midnight you have fasted all day at Christmas.
Whether or not that is the origin, we, and most churches round us, have the Christmas Eve service starting at 11pm or 11.30 and there are at least some in the congregation who feel it is some how wrong to have Communion before midnight because, perhaps, its "not really Christmas yet". The liturgical day might start at sunset but theirs doesn't. (For me, personally, deep down inside, the day starts at dawn or when I wake up - midnight, and even 4am, feels like part of the day before - but that's just me)
As for Easter, for the last few years we've been going to the Easter Vigil service at Southwark Cathedral, which runs from about 8pm to 10pm on Saturday night. But that's a dry service. No Eucharist. I think the reason for that is specifically because people want to do the first Communion of Easter at their own parishes the next day, on Sunday.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
The Christmas reveillon in France was traditionally held after Midnight Mass in the early hours of the morning.
However a good number of people would celebrate Christmas without going to Mass(it happens in the UK also) These people would often start the reveillon before midnight.
Since the 1970s many Catholic parishes will have a good number of Masses on Christmas Eve typically about 5pm or 6pm or 8pm or 9pm and some will still retain the traditional practice of 'Midnight Mass' at midnight.This happens all over the Catholic world including the UK.
With earlier Christmas Masses it is easy to have the Christmas revillon at any time (but lateish) on Christmas Eve and then attend Mass either before or after the reveillon.
The 'reveillon' is one of the most important family meals of the whole year in France just like 'Christmas dinner' in the Anglo Saxon world but not everyone who participates at these meals will even think about going to church.
The other thing which made the reveillon be held after midnight is that ,traditionally for Catholics ,Christmas Eve is a day of abstinence from meat and if one was going to celebrate a traditional reveillon it couldn't be on the evening of 24th December.
Many other traditionally Catholic countries which have the traditional Christmas meal on the evening of 24th December will have a meat free Christmas meal with the main course being traditionally carp.This would be the case in Catholic Germany,Austria,Czech republic,Slovakia,Slovenia,Croatia,Hungary,PolandLithuania and Ukraine(on the liturgical 24th December)
Since the 1970s Chjristmas Eve has no longer been an obligatory fast and abstinence day for Catholics and the traditional customs are not always observed any longer.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
As I remember, in the Middle English poem Sir Gawayne and the Grene Knight, the hero attends a feast on Christmas Eve which it is emphasized is as splendid as possible, but does not include meat.
The Polish custom of carp on Christmas Eve strikes me as a bit penitential. It seemed like eating soggy newspaper with bones when I tried to cook it, but presumably Polish housewives have had more practice.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
Regarding reveillon: It was certainly practised in Canada, even in my Protestant childhood. It began after dusk on Christmas Eve, continued until dill pickles were handed out to vergers and sextons (to expedite sobriety) around 10:30. Then Carol service and Holy Communion from 11-1. Back home to continue until 3:30 or 4. Then bed. It started over again at noon that day, and continued with sleep breaks until midnight on the 26th. Lashings of food, drink and cheer. The house was open to anyone who wished to join in, regardless whether they were Protestants or Catholics.
Smaller versions were still known when my children were young in the 1980s.
[ 14. April 2012, 10:43: Message edited by: PeteC ]
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Polish custom of carp on Christmas Eve strikes me as a bit penitential. It seemed like eating soggy newspaper with bones when I tried to cook it, but presumably Polish housewives have had more practice.
Depending on one's preferences, the traditional French and Italian Christmas Eve dishes of oysters and eel, respectively, might be considered either penitential or a special treat.
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Next Christmas, the Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham is celebrating the First Mass of Christmas with hymns at 8.30 pm on Christmas Eve.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Yes, but is the Shrine of OLW doing that in order not to clash with a Midnight-ish Mass at the parish church?
Our Midnight Mass (actually 1145pm) has not had the increased attendance in the last few years that our other Christmas services have enjoyed. I wonder if perhaps we need to bring it forward a bit to, say, 9pm or 10pm.......
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Our midnight service is holding up, if anything its the Christmas morning service that is losing numbers.
Our earlier service on Christmas Eve is mainly for children and this year was very poorly attended, but that might have been something of an administrative cock-up.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Polish custom of carp on Christmas Eve strikes me as a bit penitential. It seemed like eating soggy newspaper with bones when I tried to cook it, but presumably Polish housewives have had more practice.
Depending on one's preferences, the traditional French and Italian Christmas Eve dishes of oysters and eel, respectively, might be considered either penitential or a special treat.
An ascetic labour, certainly.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
This is a fabulous thread, and does the heart good. I especially like the tidbit about the dill pickles. We'll try that at our shack next year. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
This thread sent me digging for my Polish cookbook! It has a special Christmas section, detailing some of the traditions.
The Christmas Eve meal, eaten after sundown is meatless, as the Advent fast lasts until midnight. Traditionally there are 12 courses (or in some areas always an odd number).
The menu given in this book is: - Pickled Beets
- Noodles with Poppy Seed & Raisins
- Poppy Seed Rolls
- Christmas Bread (walnuts, orange & lemon peel, brandy)
- Warsaw Fruitcake (orange peel, currants, walnuts, figs, prunes)
- Twelve-fruit Compote
- Pickled Herring with Sour Cream
- Borscht (meatless)
- Cheese-filled Pierogi
- Pike
- Fish in Horseradish sauce
- Stewed Sauerkraut with Mushrooms
--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bos Loquax
Shipmate
# 16602
|
Posted
My old parish began a family service (starting around 5 or 6 pm), probably with the understanding that Christmas per se doesn't wait until midnight. In recent years (probably largely for practical reasons) the family service become the most popular service of the three typical ones.
(When Christmas doesn't fall on a Sunday, then there are usually that early "family" service starting sometime around dusk, a "midnight" service that ends around midnight, and a single day service around 10--no dawn services. When Christmas Day doesn't fall on a Sunday, the day service is the least-attended. This pattern does not hold for Easter, I'm guessing because of different patterns of spending time around the two holidays.)
My new parish doesn't begin until late.
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
If we're going to celebrate Christmas early in the evening, why not Easter, too?
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
For the Easter Vigil, (which is the Mother of all Vigils, according to the missal) you have to wait until sundown because of the symbolism of the fire. Waiting till midnight for a three hour service on such a tiring week would not go down well.
I did notice that Old Parish's Easter Vigil never began before twilight ended.
On the other hand, at least this year, Grace Cathedral in San Francisco (I check their calendar every so often) had an early Easter Vigil, expressly for families and the like. The beginning time of 5 pm was definitely before dusk around here; I have no idea how the New Fire played out under such conditions, though maybe it was done inside.
Posts: 58 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bos Loquax:
My old parish began a family service (starting around 5 or 6 pm), probably with the understanding that Christmas per se doesn't wait until midnight. In recent years (probably largely for practical reasons) the family service become the most popular service of the three typical ones.
(When Christmas doesn't fall on a Sunday, then there are usually that early "family" service starting sometime around dusk, a "midnight" service that ends around midnight, and a single day service around 10--no dawn services. When Christmas Day doesn't fall on a Sunday, the day service is the least-attended. This pattern does not hold for Easter, I'm guessing because of different patterns of spending time around the two holidays.)
That's the exact opposite of our parish. The Christmas Eve afternoon family carol service has dwindled to, this year, about half a dozen young children and their mothers. Christmas Eve midnight service (starting at 11pm, ending just after midnight) gets about 50 or 60. 10.30am on Christmas Day perhaps 70 or 80 - used to be larger. The day of the week seems to make little difference.
Our usual Sunday attendance is a bit mroe than 100, 150 on a very good day, so the two main Christmas services put together just about equal a normal Sunday. Though the people aren't the same ones - some regulars don't come at Christmas, other people only come at Christmas.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
