|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Anglo-Methodist movement
|
Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
|
Posted
Padre Joshua and I have been tossing around the idea of creating an order to advance Anglican liturgical and sacramental scholarship and practice in United Methodist churches in our Conference. A tentative name PJ has thrown out is the Order of St. George.
Our premise is that Methodism is and should be considered an Anglican church (though not necessarily in the Anglican Communion) by virtue of Wesley's connection, our direct descent, and common theology in many respects. Our liturgy, when we choose to follow it, is derived to a large degree from the BCP.
Because the "United" in our name has little to do with our liturgical practice, we'd like to encourage fellow Methodists to be more intentional in having at least an Anglican flavor in their liturgies.
Since an idea is of little use unless tossed about a while I thought I would toss this one to you fine folks and hear your thoughts. PJ may be along before long to add his two cents.
I'd appreciate your thoughts on taking this on.
--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Ok. But what are you going to do with the Uniting Church of Australia, the Churches of South India, North India, Pakistan and Bangladesh and the United Church of Canada, all ecumenical unions which are now the local representative of Methodism in their respective areas? A coherent position would be appreciated by your cousins up north here.
What about the fact that British Methodism and its offspring in Canada and Australia don't have bishops? How are you going to deal with the AS arguments?
Lastly can I post the Sung Communion service with its Great Thanksgiving I compiled from our service book, Celebrate God's Presence?
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
|
Posted
I wasn't planning to do anything with or about those groups, SPK. It has nothing to do with their polity or whether they have bishops or the price of tea in China. And we are not speaking in terms of making anybody do anything.
We are speaking in terms of Anglican liturgy. And we are speaking first in terms of our own Conference, with the possibility of future growth.
--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Just seeing if you'd take me as a long-distance subscriber. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
It sounds good but "Anglican" means different things in different places too. TEC has its Prayer Books which are descended from the Scots Episcopalians while other places have Anglican churches that hew more closely to 1662 and old-time CoE practice.
It would be best is you expect a diversity in worship materials, particularly if you get submissions from sympathizers in Canada or England over the internet. Be prepared for some puzzled looks if you show a wonderful British Methodist or Church of England material to your American colleagues and the Prayer Book references don't match what they expected because they are referencing different Prayer Books.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Wesley used the 1662 BCP. So, the Anglo-Methodist thing to do would be to base your liturgies on the 1662 BCP. On the other hand, John Wesley was a fan of William Law. So...I guess you could base your liturgies on the Scottish BCP of whatever year it was.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
As a former Methodist turned Anglican, I wish you well in this endeavor, though in the name of ecumenism I recommend you also tie up along with it a move towards a three ordered ministry and restoration of apostolic succession to Methodism.
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
PJ may be along before long to add his two cents.
Like white on rice. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I could see this possibly fulfilling one or more roles:
- It would help the shared communion agreement between TEC and UMC.
--One of the biggest hang-ups right now, as I perceive it (and understanding that there is more than one), is the fact that United Methodists are not required to use the published Eucharistic liturgy, and that often some parts of the liturgy are used while others are omitted, seemingly at the whim of the celebrant. I would like to see UM pastors use the wonderful Eucharistic liturgy that has been approved by the General Conference. I believe that the liturgy itself conveys deep meaning and does so without being pompous or self-righteous, and as a connectional denomination we should not be allowed to run willy-nilly as we have been. Further, the published liturgy shares many similarities with ELCA, TEC, and even RC Eucharistic prayers, thereby connecting us to the Church as a whole. - It could be a source for training pastors and congregants in liturgical praxis.
--This relates to my point above. I believe that the largest reason that pastors (both ordained and licensed) fail to use the approved liturgies is due to a simple lack of training.
--Analogy: I used to mow the grass without using safety equipment (i.e., safety glasses and ear protection). I later went to work at a golf course, and was required to use them. I was told why we use them. I have not worked there in seven years, yet I still wear eye and ear protection when mowing grass.
--I believe that as pastors are introduced to the beauty of the liturgy, and more importantly, the why of the liturgy, more of them will want to use it. - It could also be a source for theological training; discouraging "homespun theology" and encouraging theological orthodoxy.
--This is definitely my largest gripe with local pastors (which I happen to be at the moment). Since we do not require local pastors to attend seminary, they rarely have the theological training they need to be effective shepherds of the flock, let alone Wesleyan theology*. While we do have a "course of study", which is vaguely analogous to the Anglican "reading for orders", it is severely lacking in several important areas. I want to find a way to shepherd these shepherds, to teach the ones who wish to learn, to be a resource for those who find themselves ill-equipped for the position in which they find themselves. - It could help pastors who excel in a more traditional worship style to find churches in which their gifts can be better utilized.
--In other words, instead of sending low-church pastors to high-church congregations and vice-versa, it could help pastors and churches fit together better. While appointments (which pastor goes to which church) are entirely within the purview of the presiding bishop, with the advice of his or her cabinet of district superintendents, I feel confident that a reasoned request would be more likely to be honored than not.
I understand that not everyone particularly likes liturgy. That's perfectly ok. God is an unimaginably huge God, and there's room for many worship styles in the Kingdom. But I will not deny the fact that some do love liturgy, for varying reasons, and I believe that finding other, like-minded people with whom to connect and from whom to learn can only be a good thing. I don't want to promote schism or division, but growth and depth.
I'm still thinking, so I may add more later.
_____
*Think what you will, but if you're going to be a pastor in a certain denomination, it seems logical to require that you believe the majority of said denomination's doctrine. That cannot always be said of licensed local pastors in The United Methodist Church.
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
And most Americans are familiar with the TEC's 1928 or 1979 BCP. Circuit Rider has used the 1979 BCP on occasion, AIRC. Practical access to the 1662 is more problematic for Americans. Comfort is something else too.
If the Order of St. George made a point of educating its members on Prayer Book diversity (while avoiding value arguments about which one is superior) you'd have a larger selection of material to use.
1662 wins on historic authenticity but 1979 wins on access, familiarity and ease of use grounds. Remember, you're Methodist, don't be afraid of experience! Or practicality!
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
(while avoiding value arguments about which one is superior)
1549 is out. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
|
Posted
Correct on both points, SPK. We like the 1979 because of its language and use it frequently, but the 1662 is more historical. In fact, Wesley gave us our own version (he called it the "Sunday Service" with excerpts from the BCP. In the preface he wrote, "I believe there is no Liturgy in the world, either in ancient or modern language, which breathes more of a solid, scriptural, rational piety than the Common Prayer of the Church of England." We promptly threw the Sunday Service into the garbage can and forgot about it for more than 200 years.
While in England last fall I bought a Methodist Worship Book and have used some of the liturgies in it in my congregation at home.
--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
(while avoiding value arguments about which one is superior)
1549 is out.
That would be the Anglo-Catholics, not the Anglo-Methodists.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
|
Posted
This is very interesting, and deeply thought through, and felt.
I am sure you value the inheritance of Methodism too. It is a wonderful tradition in so many ways.
Surely, given its great value, part of your plan or at least complementary to it, is that Anglicanism become more Methodist. More consciously appreciative of it.
I value the apostolicity of Methodism as it stands, and its historic witness. I do not think bishops = 'apostolicity' or 'guarantee' anything much.
As a child in our village, the vicar was decidedly low church and the Methodist minister decidedly on what we took to be the high side!
[ 13. April 2012, 01:53: Message edited by: Mary Marriott ]
--------------------
'We have to be ready to move forward' she said. 'Maybe this is not how we are meant to be for ever.' (Mina in Skellig)
Posts: 32 | From: the half way house | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
|
Posted
With regard to Methodism,the American branch is often more High Church than its counterpart in England, coloured stoles,albs,and even chasubles are found in many of its churches.
The same applies to the Episcopal Church.
I cannot share the judgement that the Church of England is getting more Methodist.
I have just spent Holy Week and Easter in London,and the worship in the major Churches St.Paul's,Westminster Abbey or Southwark Cathedral is in many ways, richer and more catholic than 40 years ago.Especially the Holy Week Liturgies.
--------------------
Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
How high is high within the Anglo-Methodist movement? Is incense used?
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
How high is high within the Anglo-Methodist movement? Is incense used?
Well, it's not really a movement yet, so far as I can see. CR sent me a text message yesterday as I was mowing grass; that was the beginning of the conversation.
As for your question on how high is high: We used incense on Christmas Eve and Ash Wednesday. Alb and stole for celebrant, albs for the rest of the altar party. No chasubles in sight. Sung congregational responses in Eucharistic prayer, and chanted Psalm. Digging out the old "Ecclesiantics Meter", I'd say we're firmly MotR by CofE standards, but edging into High by UMC standards. Hit us on a Sunday in July, however, and you'll find us a bit more relaxed.
[ 13. April 2012, 12:06: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
(while avoiding value arguments about which one is superior)
1549 is out.
That would be the Anglo-Catholics, not the Anglo-Methodists.
Some of us hope they aren't mutually exclusive! If the Methodists recover their Anglican liturgical heritage, I'd like to see us become more intentional about our Wesleyan heritage in the Anglican church.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
As someone who is very proud of her Wesleyan roots in the UMC and tries to bring as much of that to her fellow travelers in the TEC, might I humbly suggest a focus on a form of the Daily Office?
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
I would like to see UM pastors use the wonderful Eucharistic liturgy that has been approved by the General Conference. I believe that the liturgy itself conveys deep meaning and does so without being pompous or self-righteous, and as a connectional denomination we should not be allowed to run willy-nilly as we have been. Further, the published liturgy shares many similarities with ELCA, TEC, and even RC Eucharistic prayers, thereby connecting us to the Church as a whole.
The canon, itself, is taught as an exemplar in a nearby Roman Catholic seminary. Yes, it is excellent.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
How high is high within the Anglo-Methodist movement? Is incense used?
Well, it's not really a movement yet, so far as I can see. CR sent me a text message yesterday as I was mowing grass; that was the beginning of the conversation.
As for your question on how high is high: We used incense on Christmas Eve and Ash Wednesday. Alb and stole for celebrant, albs for the rest of the altar party. No chasubles in sight. Sung congregational responses in Eucharistic prayer, and chanted Psalm. Digging out the old "Ecclesiantics Meter", I'd say we're firmly MotR by CofE standards, but edging into High by UMC standards. Hit us on a Sunday in July, however, and you'll find us a bit more relaxed.
Thanks for factual response. I would make it clear that I am a lover of incense, rather than the opposite and indeed, I am an experienced thurifer.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
As someone who is very proud of her Wesleyan roots in the UMC and tries to bring as much of that to her fellow travelers in the TEC, might I humbly suggest a focus on a form of the Daily Office?
One of the things I've gained from being in the Order of Saint Luke has been an in-depth study on the importance of the Daily Office. We covenant together to pray as much of it as we can. Lauds, Matins, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, and Compline. I will definitely be sharing these gems with my new congregation, and with any Anglo-Methodist movement that may arise.
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I've heard that there's something similar already within UK Methodism, but it's regarded with some distaste and unease by the rest of them. Perhaps a Methodist shipmate can elucidate?
There is a 'high-church' movement within UK Methodism but I've not come across anyone who is involved with it. That said, most Methodist churches these days appear to be slightly 'higher' up the candle than when I first encountered Methodist services back in the early 1980s - although robed choirs and preaching gowns were common back then.
Is it just me, though, but other than the grand old Wesleyan hymns am I alone in finding UK Methodist services generally pretty deadly? Neither one thing nor another, neither fish nor fowl ...
There can be good and thoughtful preaching there though.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
Is it just me, though, but other than the grand old Wesleyan hymns am I alone in finding UK Methodist services generally pretty deadly?
No you're not. IME the circuit system severely limits the development of congregational identities. I think this leads to a lot of flat lowest common denominator worship, but I know other people who value its potential for unity and uniformity.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
How high is high within the Anglo-Methodist movement? Is incense used?
Well, it's not really a movement yet, so far as I can see. CR sent me a text message yesterday as I was mowing grass; that was the beginning of the conversation.
As for your question on how high is high: We used incense on Christmas Eve and Ash Wednesday. Alb and stole for celebrant, albs for the rest of the altar party. No chasubles in sight. Sung congregational responses in Eucharistic prayer, and chanted Psalm. Digging out the old "Ecclesiantics Meter", I'd say we're firmly MotR by CofE standards, but edging into High by UMC standards. Hit us on a Sunday in July, however, and you'll find us a bit more relaxed.
Up North the United Church of Canada does not use incense. You just won't find it. Canadian Methodism was and is lower down the candle, Methodism gets higher the further south you go in North America. Up here you have former Bible Christian and Primitive Methodist places that really are prayer shacks, one former Primitive place is delightfully named "Temperanceville United Church".
On the other hand I do have a nice Communion service prepared with sung communion responses, there are four sung settings in our hymn book (of course we never use them, nobody ever does). I got the Service Book complement and picked a Great Thanksgiving prayer to go with it. It was a challenge, something we can do in theory but never get around to doing in practice.
The United Church of Canada has a miserable history with Anglican Chant, we're much more comfortable with the Scots Psalter when it comes to psalms. Every family has its eccentric cousins.
The UCCan has just doesn't run to church parties very often. I put it down to trying to heal the seams after 1925 and it worked. Besides on one hand we've got snake-bellow low Bible Christian or Primitive Methodist places as well as snake-belly low Congregationalist places, then on the other hand we have High Auld Kirk places and really high former Wesleyan Methodist places. All of these churches have their distinctions and a low Congregationalist place isn't the same as a low Primitive Methodist shack. So we just gave up trying to distinguish and decided to be mellow.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Tell you what,SPK. You send me your sung communion service and I'll add instructions for the proper use of incense, the ringing of bells and maybe a few suggestions for manual acts. Then, we can submit it to the Order of St. George for use as their official communion liturgy. Sound like a plan?
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Your wish is my command.
Though you'll never get me to use incense. You just won't.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
The Order of St. George already uses incense.
Though their church makes exactly two UMC churches I know for sure use incense at all.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
Is it just me, though, but other than the grand old Wesleyan hymns am I alone in finding UK Methodist services generally pretty deadly?
No you're not. IME the circuit system severely limits the development of congregational identities. I think this leads to a lot of flat lowest common denominator worship, but I know other people who value its potential for unity and uniformity.
As a lifelong British Methodist I would agree that the circuit system is problematic. It does instil a sense of unity, but it also reduces the likelihood that a church will develop a distinct form of worship and churchmanship to suit its own circumstances. Only the most self-confident of congregations will insist on doing worship very differently from the others in the same circuit, not least because this will inconvenience the visiting preachers, most of whom are getting on in years, and who don't expect to have to deviate significantly from their usual modes of practice. (Even something like switching to modern worship music takes a long time, because the preachers probably don't know many of the songs, and they're the ones expected to choose the music when they preach.)
So an individual British Methodist congregation would be unlikely to switch to High Anglican styles of worship or liturgies, unless the congregation in question had a certain amount of clout, and a history of doing things their own way.... However, if a whole circuit were of the same mind, that would make things easier. (The same would be true if any significant changes in worship were under consideration.)
Each congregation will have its own flavour, and its own dynamic, of course. This is noticeable when you have a single circuit that straddles very different areas. However, as circuits get bigger and bigger due to financial and staffing issues, the danger is that it'll become even harder for individual churches to be distinctive.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that High Anglican liturgical worship tends to require the presence of a priest. Does it work if the person in the pulpit is a lay preacher, e.g. a loquacious retired headmaster in a suit, or a 40 year old blonde in a yellow dress and red nail varnish? I don't mean to be funny - I'm just trying to visualise how the '1662 BCP' works when your minister is only present once or twice a month.
I believe that the UMC abandoned the circuit model a long time ago, and that each American Methodist church has its own minister. These are significant differences from the British Methodist Church.
(BTW, I've heard that Wesley's Chapel is quite High. But I don't how it compares to High CofE churches.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
(BTW, I've heard that Wesley's Chapel is quite High. But I don't how it compares to High CofE churches.)
It doesn't. No central aisle and the holy table blocked from view by the pulpit.
It does have a communion service every Sunday, but I believe that is not well attended.
So no eucharist as principal Sunday service, no servers, no candles on altar, no vestments, no icons/statues, no incense...
Take it from this High CofE.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
I dearly hope you've saved that text, Padre Joshua! Just think of where the Oxford Movement would be if they saved the very letter that started it all. "Yes people, it all started one hazy Thursday afternoon while I was cutting grass and I received this message! It was inspired!!!"
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I believe that the UMC abandoned the circuit model a long time ago, and that each American Methodist church has its own minister. These are significant differences from the British Methodist Church.
Almost... There are many small churches which share a pastor with several others, but the largest circuit I've ever heard of was five churches, and of those two were so small that they only met twice a month. There are a handful of pastoral charges in north Alabama which have three on the circuit (one meets at 8:00, one at 9:30, and the third at 11:00), but there are many more charges with two churches on a circuit.
But yes, there are many more station churches in the UMC than in the British Methodist Church.
Morning prayer can be led by a layperson, though. And the UMC has a very large contingent of local pastors (lay preachers in the UK). So maybe the answer for a really small church would be to have MP three weeks a month and HC the fourth.
To top all this off, I'm certain that there are a large number of small congregations that have no intention of ever changing the way they do anything. Is it a coincidence that they're dying, or is there a connection?
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
I feel the need to add that I don't want to just copy and paste the CofE or TEC onto any UMC congregation. That would be a disservice to all involved. Instead, the idea is to reconnect with our Anglican roots in a Wesleyan manner. Worship is an important part of this, because worship is a reflection of our theology. But worship isn't the only thing in the UMC that needs tinkering with. I don't want a cookie-cutter church, either. Each congregation is unique, because the people who go there are unique. However, we claim to be connectional, so we do need some strong commonalities.
Worship and liturgy are two things about which I am very passionate. I began on the more “contemporary” side of the spectrum, but as I have matured in my walk with Christ I have found myself drawn more and more to a more traditional liturgical style. I find myself most at home in classic Anglican style worship. On the other hand, I can and do lead worship in very informal settings, such as at summer camp. So I am able to see both sides of the coin, so to speak. I am a member of the Order of Saint Luke, which is “a religious order in the United Methodist Church dedicated to sacramental and liturgical scholarship, education, and practice.” (OSL website, www.saint-luke.net). As part of my vows I am bound to learn all I can about liturgy and the sacraments and then use this knowledge to teach others, with the end view of drawing people ever closer to Christ and into a deeper understanding of his redeeming work in the cross and resurrection.
Methodist worship is by nature very diverse. This rich diversity of expression allows each congregation to show its own unique personality and to be flexible in reaching out to the community in which it is placed. With this flexibility, however, comes the responsibility to remain faithful to the uniqueness that is our Anglican heritage, as transmitted to us through John Wesley, Francis Asbury, and Thomas Coke. While Methodism has in many ways fallen away from the Anglican styles, there remains a solid common thread and definite pattern to worship that I strongly believe must be present.
I believe there are several reasons to use traditional liturgical worship patterns. Most important is the fact that we profess to believe in the communion of saints and in the catholicity of the Church. Since God is timeless, he is receiving worship from us at what we perceive to be the present moment, and simultaneously is receiving worship from our great-great-grandparents and from our great-great-grandchildren. We join our voices in harmony with those who have gone before and with those whom have not yet been born. I believe that because of this, it is important that we harmonize as closely as possible to the traditions of the Church through the ages, in the reciting of the creeds, in the patterns of worship, and in the breaking of bread at the Eucharist. If we are one Church, and if we do join in with all the saints from all ages, then our worship should reflect that.
Additionally, the United Methodist Church is a connectional church, and I believe that as such we should hold more worship patterns in common than we do in current practice. If Methodism’s strength lies in flexibility, its weakness lies there as well. Being flexible is wonderful until we begin to stray too far from the framework of tradition. It is a difficult middle ground: We need to remain flexible, but we also need to remain faithful to the framework that tradition provides.
A quick word about tradition: It is easy for us to define tradition by what we did as children, or what our parents and grandparents did. However, tradition is not limited to living memory. Tradition encompasses over two thousand years of Christian practice, prayer, and worship. As we seek to find a more traditional style, we may well be breaking away from what our parents and grandparents remember. However, it puts us more in line with what the early Church was doing, and allows us to recover helpful worship practices that have been lost in recent years.
The other thing is that traditional styles are making a comeback. Based on my reading and studying of current worship patterns, what we call “contemporary” is about 20 years behind the times, and as a whole is on the way out, or at least to a place of less importance. As Generation Y comes of age, especially the latter half of it, I expect to see a resurgence of traditional styles, but done in a way that fits the personality of each congregation. We are already seeing this in the “emerging church” movement. (Three good books about the emerging church trend are They Like Jesus But Not the Church, Emerging Church, and Emerging Worship, all by Dan Kimball, and all available on Amazon.) I find it notable that the largest United Methodist congregation in the U.S. has no contemporary services at all. Where traditional services have failed has not been in the tradition itself, but in the theology of the congregation and in the abject failure of churches to minister to the communities in which they are located. All politics aside, I submit that government welfare would not be necessary if the Church would simply do what Jesus commanded us to do. Instead, we find ourselves acting like cruise liners and country clubs, existing solely for the comfort and happiness of those who have been members all of their lives.
This impacts worship because worship is the expression of the gathered community. If the gathered community is unfriendly, their worship reflects that. If they are prideful, their worship reflects that. We have to make sure our worship reflects our true selves, and helps newcomers join into that uniqueness that makes each congregation special.
The "Order of St. George" (I was teasing when I suggested the name, but it's as good as any at the moment) could be instrumental in bringing real and lasting reform to the United Methodist Church and to other Methodist denominations worldwide. It will require many people working together to make it happen, though.
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard that there's something similar already within UK Methodism, but it's regarded with some distaste and unease by the rest of them. Perhaps a Methodist shipmate can elucidate?
There is a 'high-church' movement within UK Methodism but I've not come across anyone who is involved with it. That said, most Methodist churches these days appear to be slightly 'higher' up the candle than when I first encountered Methodist services back in the early 1980s - although robed choirs and preaching gowns were common back then.
Is it just me, though, but other than the grand old Wesleyan hymns am I alone in finding UK Methodist services generally pretty deadly? Neither one thing nor another, neither fish nor fowl ...
There can be good and thoughtful preaching there though.
Yes there are high church methodists in UK - and not necessarily that rare. The development of the current Worship Book has been seen to be influenced by this end of the spectrum. Basically those who like liturgy already are the once likely to volunteer/get picked for such reviewing committees.
The Methodist Sacramental Fellowship is the gathering point for many high methodists, I wouldn't say that it is treated with disdain by others any more than any other group that caters for a corner of our broad field.
I suspect that US methodism is higher as its roots (AFAIK) are from the Wesleyan branch whereas UK Methodist at the moment has a wider heritage including strong influences from the Primitives who were very low church. Many places that still think of themselves in terms of 'chapel' have prim roots. Though history can surprise, one of my churches that is as non-conformist as they come (they have never brought service books!) actually turns out to have been built as a Wesleyan church, but an island among Primitives so changed over time.
Ministers seem more likelyto were robes now than when I was younger - or at least back then their robes were more distinct from CoE priests, eg I recall grey cassocks not black.
We are more open to such things as candles in church - without fear of being dragged to the tiber (I'm told that at one time doing anything done by higher churches was seen as a sign of being dragged towards them!)
I have not been in any UK Methodist church that regular used the full communion service as laid out in the book, usually people refer to the book from the peace onwards (page B12 in old money) except for the covenant service which should be done in full once a year (even my book less church allows that, and because it is so different to their norm they value it in a particular way).
As I hear more of the UMC I suspect I would not be a natural liturgical home for me. Too much of a non-conformist!!
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I would add that British Methodism is already quite liturgical. Our minister used to say that during ecumenical services our Catholic and Anglican brethren were quite surprised at how liturgical we were.
I haven't really noticed an increasing taste for clerical robes, but as I say, I can only speak for my circuit. Other circuits might have developed a taste for that sort of thing!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
I would like to see UM pastors use the wonderful Eucharistic liturgy that has been approved by the General Conference. I believe that the liturgy itself conveys deep meaning and does so without being pompous or self-righteous, and as a connectional denomination we should not be allowed to run willy-nilly as we have been. Further, the published liturgy shares many similarities with ELCA, TEC, and even RC Eucharistic prayers, thereby connecting us to the Church as a whole.
The canon, itself, is taught as an exemplar in a nearby Roman Catholic seminary. Yes, it is excellent.
Whenever I have encountered a communion liturgy in a Methodist setting, the full Great Thanksgiving has been utilized, albeit with everything spoken, Sanctus included.
Additionally, it tends to be the season-appropriate Great Thanksgiving as featured in UMBOW.
Maybe this is just Midwestern phenomenon.
The full Order of Service at the beginning of the UMH is an artfully-done minimalist Mass that would be easy to follow by any used to the "Western Rite," and yet it is written in a manner that allows enough flexibility that practically any church could use it with a simple rearrangement of what they already do.
[ 13. April 2012, 23:40: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
I have died and gone to Methodist Heaven.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It doesn't. No central aisle and the holy table blocked from view by the pulpit.
It does have a communion service every Sunday, but I believe that is not well attended.
So no eucharist as principal Sunday service, no servers, no candles on altar, no vestments, no icons/statues, no incense...
Take it from this High CofE.
Wesley's chapel was very closely based on the Anglican churches of its day. The pulpit was originally higher and the arches beneath it were intended to allow for sight-lines to the original Holy Table. However, it has been lowered over the years and that is no longer possible. Now though there is a raised area in front of the pulpit on which a new Holy Table stands, which was certainly adorned with two candles the last time I was there. You might also be able to find a statue or two of Mr Wesley...! High Methodist churches may be higher than some Anglican churches but don't approach the dizzy heights of Anglo-Catholic shrines.
As to the thread more generally, I wish the Order of St George well, but for my money, I'm always more interested in seeing Methodism "claim and cherish its place in the Holy Catholic Church" than in seeing it trying to be Anglican. In fact, to me often one of the problems in being a sacramental Methodist is that people think you're just a wannabe Anglican. I think there's also a certain anachronism in claiming post-Oxford movement liturgical practices as being part of a Wesleyan heritage...
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Thank you, seasick. I have twice attended services at Wesley's chapel, but the table in front of the pulpit was not used and no candles lit. (MOTR Anglicans would light altar candles during non-eucharistic service.) So I didn't notice them.
I know you're right about the central pulpit being an Anglican thing in it's day. I was replying to svit's question about Wesley's chapel.
I hope the reason why Anglican churches have changed to be more catholic is not because they want to be exotic and funny Anglicans. It is because they want to claim their place in the Catholic Church, although you may disagree with the strategy.
[ 14. April 2012, 06:43: Message edited by: venbede ]
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
I don't have any problem with the recovery of catholic practice in the Anglican church - quite the reverse in the fact! My point is that I don't see any particular virtue in Methodism trying to start using the BCP (or Common Worship or whatever) - I would like to see us using our own liturgy well (and that means not only picking it up at the peace!) within the catholic heritage of the wider church to which we belong. So I think I would probably want to make exactly the same argument for Methodism that you might make for Anglicanism in terms of becoming more catholic.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
[QUOTE]! If the Methodists recover their Anglican liturgical heritage, I'd like to see us become more intentional about our Wesleyan heritage in the Anglican church.
I agree. There is little difference on many points, and if the Anglican churches could recover the evangelism (not Evangelism) of the Wesleys........
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
[QUOTE]! If the Methodists recover their Anglican liturgical heritage, I'd like to see us become more intentional about our Wesleyan heritage in the Anglican church.
I agree. There is little difference on many points, and if the Anglican churches could recover the evangelism (not Evangelism) of the Wesleys........
I can't see this working in the British context. Is a highly liturgical form of church likely to be evangelistic? I suppose one could mention the development of inner city Anglo-Catholicism. I don't know how successful this form of church was in terms of church growth. Have highly liturgial forms of church been evangelistically successful in the USA?
Wesley was deeply committed to the rites and liturgies of the CofE - but his own religious movement didn't have to focus on that, because Methodists were expected to access all the official rites and liturgies at their local Anglican church.
Maybe it would make sense simply for Methodists to rejoin the Anglican Communion while retaining the ethos of a 'holiness movement'. In the UK at least, this is more likely to happen than any kind of internal shift within Methodism to become more liturgical.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
M'learned brethren might find this essay to be of interest:
quote:
Wesley and the Anglo-Catholic Revival (1905).
AV
That is of interest. I believe it captures what I've been driving at; a return to Wesley's original leadership in the area of worship.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Is a highly liturgical form of church likely to be evangelistic? I suppose one could mention the development of inner city Anglo-Catholicism. I don't know how successful this form of church was in terms of church growth. Have highly liturgial forms of church been evangelistically successful in the USA?
A church service, whether nose-bleed high or happy-clappy, is not what I would term "evangelism". Instead, I see evangelism as being closely related to (and dependent upon) local mission work.
I am a missionary in Northeast Alabama. I work for Upper Sand Mountain Parish, a cooperative ministry of eight small-membership United Methodist congregations. We do many, many things -- too many to list here -- in an area that's about 1,000 square miles. Very rural, very poor.
Evangelism cannot exist without mission. People don't give a pair of dingo's kidneys about how loud your music is, how "spontaneous" your service is, or how "seeker-friendly" your congregation is, unless you have shown them that you love them. Not tell them that you love them, for words are cheap. Show them with your actions.
When I go into a home to repair a ceiling or install a wheelchair ramp, I am preaching the Gospel, even if I don't speak a word. And quite often enough I get asked, "Why are you doing this? What are you getting out of it?" My reply is that I'm doing because Jesus said to, and that can then open doors for conversation. I do not force my beliefs on anyone, but I am delighted to talk about them to interested people.
To expect a worship service to be the main entrance to the church is to place an unhealthy and (in my mind) unChristlike burden upon it, which it was not designed specifically to bear. Instead, I see the main front door of the church as missional work of the members being done within the wider community.
So yes, a church can be higher than the Pope himself in worship and still be evangelical. A church can be snake-belly low in worship and still be self-centered and repulsive to newcomers. I've been to both, actually.
[ 14. April 2012, 11:50: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Thanks to venbede and Seasick for your comments on Wesley's Chapel and High Church Anglicanism.
My last visit to the Chapel was many years ago. It's difficult for me to visualise precisely what people mean when they talk about High Church Anglicanism because I never attend those churches. Where I live, I'd probably have to go into the city centre and attend a service at the cathedral for that sort of thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua
A church service, whether nose-bleed high or happy-clappy, is not what I would term "evangelism". Instead, I see evangelism as being closely related to (and dependent upon) local mission work.
I am a missionary in Northeast Alabama. I work for Upper Sand Mountain Parish, a cooperative ministry of eight small-membership United Methodist congregations. We do many, many things -- too many to list here -- in an area that's about 1,000 square miles. Very rural, very poor.
Evangelism cannot exist without mission. People don't give a pair of dingo's kidneys about how loud your music is, how "spontaneous" your service is, or how "seeker-friendly" your congregation is, unless you have shown them that you love them. Not tell them that you love them, for words are cheap. Show them with your actions.
[...]
To expect a worship service to be the main entrance to the church is to place an unhealthy and (in my mind) unChristlike burden upon it, which it was not designed specifically to bear. Instead, I see the main front door of the church as missional work of the members being done within the wider community.
So yes, a church can be higher than the Pope himself in worship and still be evangelical [evangelistic?]. A church can be snake-belly low in worship and still be self-centered and repulsive to newcomers. I've been to both, actually.
Padre Joshua, my question about evangelism and high church liturgy was inspired by Gee D, who seemed to imply that evangelism and liturgical Sunday worship could be combined in the same package. I wouldn't have considered posing my question had he not made that assumption.
I accept your point that service in love is essential for evangelism, and that many different kinds of worship can find participants if a congregation is known for its practical commitment to and love for the community.
Nevertheless, many churches find it hard to translate their care and commitment into more people developing an interest in Christianity and eventually entering into faith. In fact, re British Christianity, it's often said that church commitment to the social gospel has unfortunately become a kind of replacement for evangelism, rather than an integral part of evangelism. (And in Latin America, as we know, Catholic Liberation Theology and its attendant form of church practice didn't prevent the spread and growth of alternative theologies and practices, namely Pentecostalism.)
In other words, I don't think it's accurate to say church practice and churchmanship are entirely irrelevant to the evangelistic endeavour. But clearly, there will be variable cultural factors that make one form of church attractive or unattractive depending on the context, as well as the role of the church in providing care and support for people in the community.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Tell you what,SPK. You send me your sung communion service and I'll add instructions for the proper use of incense, the ringing of bells and maybe a few suggestions for manual acts. Then, we can submit it to the Order of St. George for use as their official communion liturgy. Sound like a plan?
Too late. We already have a sung communion service, written in part by none other than His Grace, The Rt. Rev. Dr. William H. Willimon. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
You need more than one. SPK has already sent me the communion service. It's a very solid communion liturgy that's more in the tradition of the 1979 BCP than 1662 BCP. I'll add some manual acts and bells. Incense wouldn't be appropriate for use with this eucharistic prayer. However, you could use smoke during the processional, gospel, offertory, and recessional.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
(while avoiding value arguments about which one is superior)
1549 is out.
Thank God!
My Granny's chapel in Lincolnshire was recognizably Prayer Book. The Communion service was 1662 with a few very minor changes, and the Morning and Evening services were, for want of a better term, pseudo-BCP in that it followed the basic order of MP and EP whilst omitting some things and adding others. I think I could easily have dropped into Wesleyan Methodism, however, the local Methodists were moving away from their traditional service towards a straight forward hymn sandwich.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Tangent alert
Does anybody know if the Wesleyan church is on the low end or the high end? I'd always assumed they were on the low end. Never been to one.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
|
Posted
In a NZ Methodist context there are those of us who are more liturgically minded. I am presently on a commission producing a new book resource book for celebrating the Eucharist. The liturgical element has possibly been strengthened as Methodists and Anglicans have trained together for years now.
However the two ordination programmes are now diverging and the growing parts of our church seem to be the Pacific communities - which have a very Protestant and conservative ethos - and other immigrant Evangelical groups. So I worry somewhat about the future of the 'Wesleyan' liturgical tradition here. In the meantime I'll carry on burning palms, blessing oil and lighting a fire on Easter morning. Working up to incense!!!
[ 14. April 2012, 19:03: Message edited by: Matariki ]
--------------------
"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
