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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Orchestral Masses
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Ascension-ite
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# 1985
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Posted
I have just returned from an orchestral mass at my current parish (TEC). Those who know me, know that I come from an A-C background and am currently in a low-ish parish, which is strictly by the book virtually all the time. We did Hummel's Mass in B flat Major, Op 77, with a 15 piece orchestra. The church was packed, with probably 800 or so present. The music was lovely, but the ordering was unusual. The service was billed as a Festival Choral Eucharist, but was missing more than a few pieces of a standard Eucharist. The order was:
Processional
Opening Acclimation
First Lesson (NT)
Kyrie & Gloria
Gospel
Credo
Prayers of the People
Announcements
Benedictus (during offertory)
Doxology (vs.3)
Great Thanksgiving (chanted)
Sanctus
Lord's Prayer
Breaking of the Bread
Agnus Dei
Post Communion Prayer
Recessional
Much was made, leading up to this service, that we were singing the portions of the Mass within their proper setting, but singing them in the wrong places and leaving out portions of the Mass itself sort of defeats the whole purpose of the thing. At least it did not come across as a concert and there was no applause. Coming from an A-C background I know it's not that hard to get it all in and still clock in at a decent time. As it was, the whole thing took just about 65 minutes, that's less time than our normal Sunday Eucharist. I probably shouldn't say anything as we are unlikely to do this again anytime soon, it was nice, but there certainly was something missing. Any thoughts? How have any of you handled these services, which are often good avenues for outreach?
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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Edgeman
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# 12867
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Posted
We have an orchestral mass each year at christmas, but it's the 1962 missal so it fits it. The one time we did an orchestral mass for the regular mass was Christ the king. It was the same as a regular mass, only we sat down during the gloria, the first part of the Eucharistic prayer was said quietly under the sanctus,the benedictus replaced the memorial acclamation, and the agnus dei started during the sign of peace.
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Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Devils Advocate
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# 16484
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Posted
I have no problems with an Orchestral Mass Setting being performed liturgically the only problem can be that it goes on for a long time. Usually they weren't designed to be used in the modern communicating mass format with input by the congregation. With the exception of the Liturgy of the Word the congregation were merely spectators and took no part in the liturgy except for being present. so with the exception of the Gloria and Credo where the priest Deacon and Subdeacon said them privately and then sat down on the Sedilia while the "Choral and Orchestral Forces continued. Usually the other parts of the mass ( including the Eucharistic Prayer) carried on under the music and were usually inaudible. Hence the use of Sacring and Sanctuary bells being used at certain parts of the cannon to call the congregations attention to the most sacred part of the liturgy.
In the Old Tridentine Mass the Sanctuary Bell was rung once gently at the "Hanc Igatur" "Hear us Oh merciful Father" and then three times after the consecration of the Host as the Celebrant genuflected elevated the Host and genuflected and in a similar fashion after the consecration of the Precious Blood. As far as I can tell it was quite normal for the Celebrant. Deacon and Subdeacon to continue with he Cannon of the Mass under the Music The bell was also rung when the celebrant received the consecrated elements agin to call the congregations attention to what was happening at the Altar
[duplicate post deleted!]
[ 30. April 2012, 17:23: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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"Oh I have wrought much evil with my spells"
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Devils Advocate
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# 16484
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Posted
oops posted it twice by accident Read the second one not the first ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"Oh I have wrought much evil with my spells"
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sonata3
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# 13653
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Posted
The biggest problem with adapting Tridentine mass settings to a modern liturgy is the Benedictus qui venit. As noted above, in the Tridentine rite it would have been sung while the Canon was prayed silently.
St. John Cantius in Chicago, the last time I was there, used the Benedictus qui venit in place of the Memorial Acclamation (this was a Latin Novus Ordo celebration). I have been to Episcopal churches where it is delayed, and used as a communion anthem.
Back when I was an Episcopal choirmaster and we did Schubert or Haydn Masses, I usually would make a discreet cut in the B. qui venit (there's usually enough repetition in these settings that a cut can be made without wrecking the tonal architecture of the piece), but leave it immediately following the Sanctus.
The position described in the original post - at the Offertory -- seems odd, as the Bqv now precedes the Sanctus.
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Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
I have only experienced orchestral masses in A-C parishes where the normal form was tridentine anyway, so it certainly fit well, even if some of the prayers were done behind the music. In a low-church parish I think it can still be done, perhaps with people sitting through some of it, but certainly it shouldn't be done out of order, and I don't see the need to drop the psalm, lesson and sermon, especially when adding those back in would have only increased the length by 15 minutes or so.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
We have an orchestral mass each year at christmas, but it's the 1962 missal so it fits it. The one time we did an orchestral mass for the regular mass was Christ the king. It was the same as a regular mass, only we sat down during the gloria, the first part of the Eucharistic prayer was said quietly under the sanctus,the benedictus replaced the memorial acclamation, and the agnus dei started during the sign of peace.
This is pretty much my experience of how it's done in advanced Anglo-Catholic parishes as well. The OP's orchestral mass sounds dreadful and surely the rector of the place is seriously misguided or has little liturgical sense.
I dislike orchestral masses except perhaps for the All Souls requiem. One of the problems with orchestral masses IMO is the frequent practical need for the canon of the mass to be said silently. It's not a concert, folks; the people's full participation in the eucharistic sacrifice - which can't really be achieved if the canon isn't audible - is more important than extravagant musical settings. While I'm at it, let me condemn excessively polyphonic settings in which it becomes impossible to follow the text of the mass. Almost anyone can come to understand the Latin text of the Mass Ordinary, even if they aren't funcitonally Latin-literate. However, you can so gussy-up the setting with excessive polyphony that it becomes nigh well impossible to do more than discriminate a few isolated words here and there (listening hard for the Holy Name during the Gloria and Credo in order to bow head -- to say nothing of trying to discriminate suscipe... and simul adoratur amid a mess of repetitious, vocally overlayed syllables.
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
While I'm at it, let me condemn excessively polyphonic settings in which it becomes impossible to follow the text of the mass. Almost anyone can come to understand the Latin text of the Mass Ordinary, even if they aren't funcitonally Latin-literate. However, you can so gussy-up the setting with excessive polyphony that it becomes nigh well impossible to do more than discriminate a few isolated words here and there (listening hard for the Holy Name during the Gloria and Credo in order to bow head -- to say nothing of trying to discriminate suscipe... and simul adoratur amid a mess of repetitious, vocally overlayed syllables.
A reasonable point (does have to bob one's head at every repetition of "Jesu Christe" in a polyphonic mass?!)- but to solve all these problems, Palestrina is your man.
Missa Papae Marcelli
It worked in 1562!
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
A reasonable point (does have to bob one's head at every repetition of "Jesu Christe" in a polyphonic mass?!)- but to solve all these problems, Palestrina is your man.
We do polyphonic Masses all the time. If the Holy Name is repeated consecutively, we remain bowed (and the clergy uncovered). If the repetition overlaps and is not consecutive, then we do not.
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
One of the problems with orchestral masses IMO is the frequent practical need for the canon of the mass to be said silently.
Need? What is this need of which you speak?
It is really quite simple: Sursum corda, Preface, Sanctus, Benedictus, Eucharistic Prayer - and in that order. If that makes the entirety of the Mass a bit longer, then that is what it does. There is (as yet) no law which says we can only give our blessed Lord 60 minutes on a Sunday morning.
And the length of the mass setting cannot be determined by it being orchestral! Haydn's Little Organ Mass with an orchestra will be just as quick as ever it was without one!
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Ascension-ite
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# 1985
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Posted
Fifi, I have to agree, coming from an A-C parish where a complete mass setting is sung each week, save for the Credo, it can certainly be done, including all the bits, within 90 minutes or so. The fact that my current parish felt the need to cut the Mass down so much that it was barely legal just to accommodate the music makes doing the Mass pointless, they should have just had a concert. I hate the lingering old southern protestantism where the service has to be 60 minutes, and only on Sunday. We have three full time priests and are an urban parish in the middle of a huge university, yet we have only Sunday services...sad.
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
One of the problems with orchestral masses IMO is the frequent practical need for the canon of the mass to be said silently. It's not a concert, folks; the people's full participation in the eucharistic sacrifice - which can't really be achieved if the canon isn't audible
I cannot agree. That is a very narrow definition of participation, indeed.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
We have a very fine choir indeed. However is they sing the Gloria, they don't sing the Kyrie. The Agnus is done to cover the communion of the sanctuary party. The Creed is never sung.
The Benedictus is sometimes omitted, including bizarrely when they sang the Little Organ Mass, which gets its name from that movement.
English Cathedrals frequently sing the Agnus as a Communion anthem. St Mary le Bow's lunchtime mass in the past used to sing the Gloria as an introit.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
And indeed it is perfectly possible to have a complete orchestral mass over in an hour- I've sung at a good number at this place: The Holy Name, Manchester. They simply dispense with the Liturgy of the Infinite Parish Notices, and the Peace lasts five seconds rather than five minutes: turn to neighbour, shake hands, say "peace be with you", Offertory hymn/motet/chant starts immediately.
For me, the issue isn't with length of service per se. There are two issues: liturgical balance and liturgical flow. In terms of balance, when used in an unmodified Novus Ordo/Common Worship liturgy, a long Viennese Benedictus will over-balance all the other sung parts in all but the longest, splotheriest music-laden services. If a congregation is given two minutes to meditate on the ten lines of the Gloria, it is not ideal to give them ten minutes to meditate on the two lines of the Benedictus.
Whereas all the segments of Victoria's Missa O Quam Gloriosum- Kyrie-Gloria, Sanctus-Benedictus, Agnus Dei(leaving aside the Creed) are around 4 minutes long. Each choral segment of the service is given its own proper space, but there's no one long choral movement that overbalances the others.
My second issue- liturgical flow- is related to this. If we're using a Viennese Mass setting (lets say the Haydn Little Organ Mass as an extreme example, with a one minute Gloria and an eight minute Benedictus), the pace changes from business-like to deeply meditative.
Neither of these moods are wrong in themselves- but having to slow down from sixty-mile an hour liturgy to walking-pace liturgy at the Benedictus jars. Of course, if the priest does get on with the canon under the Benedictus, then the sloow mood is transformed into a subtle combination of action and contemplation, and the liturgical action continues at its previous speed.
But it's quite rare to see the Little Organ Mass used like this, and usually the Benedictus pauses the liturgical action completely.
Part of the problem is just that Mozart's and Haydn's choral music is like a bespoke suit- and it's so well tailored to the liturgy of their day, it doesn't fit so well when we try to hang it onto a different liturgical shape. That's why I've loved doing Tridentine masses with the Mozart Coronation Mass and the Haydn Little Organ Mass- it all makes sense suddenly!
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
People have already pointed out that orchestral masses were written in a day when the laity were left to their own devices in the nave while the priest and servers puttered about and mumbled in the sanctuary. I think the two possibilities these days is to make the mass setting just a plain old concert, or to edit the mass setting into the Eucharistic service, where, alas, the integrity of the mass setting will suffer for the sake of Divine Service.
In defense of 1.25 hour services on Sunday morning, wrap it up! I haven't had my coffee yet!
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I can see why the Benedictus of the Little Organ Mass gets omitted, given its length. What makes that decision really odd is the way Haydn gets the Gloria over in one minute earlier in the mass.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Viadana's Missa L'Hora Passa is a very short polyphonci setting. With it our Sung Masses typically last 1:15 and Solemn Masses closer to 1:30, depending on length of sermon. But we do say the Canon of the Mass silently.
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
My second issue- liturgical flow- is related to this. If we're using a Viennese Mass setting (lets say the Haydn Little Organ Mass as an extreme example, with a one minute Gloria and an eight minute Benedictus), the pace changes from business-like to deeply meditative.
Well, not if you're using the Right Version. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
I'm not sure there is any issue here. Our parish regularly has orchestral masses, especially at Christmas and Easter. This year, the Mozart Missa Brevis in D Major was featured, and on Ascension Sunday, we are doing a Mass by our composer in residence, with small orchestra. In June, the one-year anniversary of the passing of our beloved Pastor Emeritus will be marked by the Durufle Requiem, again accompanied by a small orchestra. This will be sung at a Saturday vigil Mass.
It should be noted that the Mozart Mass did not include the Credo (due to the Easter liturgy) but in the past, we have sung the Credo. The services may run a touch longer than usual, but our main noon Mass tends to go longer than an hour any way because of the music and added solemnities. (Smoke, schola, etc.)
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
My second issue- liturgical flow- is related to this. If we're using a Viennese Mass setting (lets say the Haydn Little Organ Mass as an extreme example, with a one minute Gloria and an eight minute Benedictus), the pace changes from business-like to deeply meditative.
Well, not if you're using the Right Version.
Ah yes, Michael Haydn's prolongation. That solves the issue of the change of pace- so clearly people thought like this in the 18th century!
PS The conductor on that video has an... interesting technique. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) The choir and orchestra are fairly together, so clearly it more or less works- I just can't quite work out how!
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I can see why the Benedictus of the Little Organ Mass gets omitted, given its length. What makes that decision really odd is the way Haydn gets the Gloria over in one minute earlier in the mass.
As Laurence suggests, from a liturgical point of view it's not so much a question of the total amount of time taken up by the various sung parts of the Ordinary, but the apparent hiatus that a long Viennese Benedictus would place in the liturgy. There are enough people in the congregation for whom quiet meditation is a foreign concept that I could guarantee that there would be complaints about sitting around while the choir does its bit.
A second issue is simply practice time, which is why non-Viennese Benedictuses are also sometime omitted. In the case of the Viennese ones they are all, to the best of my knowledge, written solely or primarily for solo quartet or trio, which means (a) having the voices and (b) rehearsing them so as not to eat into the full choir practice time.
(Having said all that, there was a time when we did sing the Benedictus in Viennese masses, and it would be nice to return to that.)
[ 02. May 2012, 16:00: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I wasn't complaining, just saying it was a bit odd.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
I have been told that the reason some of the Glorias and Credos in classical-era masses were so compressed was that they were written for the colder seasons of the year -- so 'let's get this over with! -- whereas the Benedictus could be lengthy since it was covering the silent canon.
And BTW I think Michael Haydn's 'prolongation' is a mess!
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
One of the problems with orchestral masses IMO is the frequent practical need for the canon of the mass to be said silently. It's not a concert, folks; the people's full participation in the eucharistic sacrifice - which can't really be achieved if the canon isn't audible - is more important than extravagant musical settings.
Although I'm glad that the silent canon is no longer the usual way, as an occasional practice I find it very beautiful. The mere fact that it edified people for hundreds of years commends it to our consideration.
Microphones and loudspeakers are a latter-day crutch. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Turn them off, and we'd probably not understand the words of the canon anyway.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
One of the problems with orchestral masses IMO is the frequent practical need for the canon of the mass to be said silently. It's not a concert, folks; the people's full participation in the eucharistic sacrifice - which can't really be achieved if the canon isn't audible - is more important than extravagant musical settings.
Although I'm glad that the silent canon is no longer the usual way, as an occasional practice I find it very beautiful. The mere fact that it edified people for hundreds of years commends it to our consideration.
Microphones and loudspeakers are a latter-day crutch. Turn them off, and we'd probably not understand the words of the canon anyway.
And even if we hear them, do we understand them?? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have been told that the reason some of the Glorias and Credos in classical-era masses were so compressed was that they were written for the colder seasons of the year
Regarding Mozart's, one theory goes that the Archbishop of Salzburg demanded them so he could sooner get back to his mistress.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ascension-ite:
We have three full time priests and are an urban parish in the middle of a huge university, yet we have only Sunday services...sad.
[shocked] Is the Office not said daily in church? [/shocked]
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
HT, The Office is not said publicly. I would hope that the staff might get together each day, there are certainly enough people in the building that it should be done, but I doubt that happens. I believe the Rector does try and say it daily, from my talks with him. Considering the world passing by our doors each day, it's a poor showing at best. The RC cathedral next door manages about one service each weekday, why can't we? We have 4 services on Sundays but nothing for weekdays or Holy Days. Is this just ingrained low-church Protestantism?
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
It's the way things seem to be going on this side of the Pond as well. Though I think the C of E has more of a tradition of weekday services (even low-church places often have a midweek eucharist as well as the daily office)
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have been told that the reason some of the Glorias and Credos in classical-era masses were so compressed was that they were written for the colder seasons of the year
Regarding Mozart's, one theory goes that the Archbishop of Salzburg demanded them so he could sooner get back to his mistress.
Both sound apocryphal. If it were not anachronism, and Haydn writing in Eisenstadt, I'd call them urban myths. In his little organ mass, Haydn was following a fashion developed to show skill - skill of composer, choir and choirmaster - and Mozart followed Papa Haydn. If it were
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have been told that the reason some of the Glorias and Credos in classical-era masses were so compressed was that they were written for the colder seasons of the year
Regarding Mozart's, one theory goes that the Archbishop of Salzburg demanded them so he could sooner get back to his mistress.
Indeed, there is a letter from Mozart to an Italian colleague(?) saying that the Abp of Salzburg demanded that the entire mass take no more than 45 minutes, and goes on to say that this required special care in composition, because there were also chanted bits and the Epistle Sonata, etc.
Mozart wasn't really copying Haydn here; there situations were quite different.
Of the Haydn masses, the two most 'compressed' were in fact first performed in Advent and for the feast of St John of God (March, I believe) and there was no heating in the Bergkirche. It's hard to fiddle when your fingers are freezin'!
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
And indeed it is perfectly possible to have a complete orchestral mass over in an hour- I've sung at a good number at this place: The Holy Name, Manchester. They simply dispense with the Liturgy of the Infinite Parish Notices, and the Peace lasts five seconds rather than five minutes: turn to neighbour, shake hands, say "peace be with you",
Why not get rid of the truly cringe-making Peace altogether? It is a ghastly innovation. You might as well have a mass congregational scrimmage as part of the mass for the amount of distraction it causes.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The peace is a constituent part of the mass, like the Kyrie and the Benedictus.
It doesn't have to be a scrimmage - just turning to your immediate neighbours and greeting them ritually.
I don't mind a more extensive peace, as long as everyone is included. It's an important ritual action.
Or just passed between the sacred ministers, although I think that looks a bit silly.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
What venbede said. There are places that exchange the Peace very disreetly or parsimoniously. I hate the 5 minute time-out in whch everyone goes climbing all over everyone else -- indeed, that's a sure way to get me never to darken the doors of such a shack again. The Peace is the least of liturgical problems with orchestral masses; you don't even need to interrupt the music whilst it is being exchanged, so long as the ceremony is done without making a big scene of it. It is the latter that needs to be suppressed everywhere, by properly educating both clergy and laity.
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The peace is a constituent part of the mass, like the Kyrie and the Benedictus.
It doesn't have to be a scrimmage - just turning to your immediate neighbours and greeting them ritually.
I don't mind a more extensive peace, as long as everyone is included. It's an important ritual action.
Or just passed between the sacred ministers, although I think that looks a bit silly.
Plenty of churches restrict it to the clergy which seems to be the more traditional form. I assume that the scrimmage is a post Vatican II development.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It is the laity taking a full part in the ritual action. It wasn't Vatican 2 being hip: they were restoring a part of the liturgy that had fallen out of use.
I'd like it if we actually kissed everyone nearby at that point. Including anyone who smells. Particularly anyone who smells.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Plenty of churches restrict it to the clergy which seems to be the more traditional form. I assume that the scrimmage is a post Vatican II development.
There could be an argument for abolishing it altogether, though that would be a great shame. Restricting it to the clergy is a pointless and offensive bit of clericalism.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
This layman would rather see a token peace between the sacred ministers than none at all.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It is the laity taking a full part in the ritual action. It wasn't Vatican 2 being hip: they were restoring a part of the liturgy that had fallen out of use.
For good reason I would hold.
I'd like it if we actually kissed everyone nearby at that point. Including anyone who smells. Particularly anyone who smells. [/QUOTE]
Most smelly people would probably prefer not to be set upon by some enthusiastic kisser like you - I speak with some authority in this regard. I am sure there are hippy communes that can provide what you need.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ascension-ite:
HT, The Office is not said publicly. I would hope that the staff might get together each day, there are certainly enough people in the building that it should be done, but I doubt that happens. I believe the Rector does try and say it daily, from my talks with him. Considering the world passing by our doors each day, it's a poor showing at best. The RC cathedral next door manages about one service each weekday, why can't we? We have 4 services on Sundays but nothing for weekdays or Holy Days. Is this just ingrained low-church Protestantism?
Protestantism has little to do with it, but that section of the church got the nickname Low and Lazy for a reason. That reason is not altogether unrelated to their attitude to midweek liturgies and liturgy in general. Depending on the schedules of the various staff members it should be possible to co-ordinate to the degree that at least one office is offered daily. Some TEC places find Noon Prayer works best for this, others MP, and some EP. If I know my schedule far enough ahead I can usually manage to schedule the Office to be in Church. This week it is supposed to be:
Wed: 9.35am MP
Thu: 9.35am MP; 4.30pm EP
Sat: 9.35am MP
and this is in a small, technically part-time, parish. Much depends on having the will to turn out and do it.
On the topic of Orchestral Masses, I have only ever attended ones celebrated according to the English Interim Rite. The drill that had evolved in that particular parish was:
Opening Hymn
Collect for Purity
Introit
Kyrie and Gloria
Collects
Epistle
Gradual and Allelia
Gospel
Creed
Sermon
Offertory
Prayer for the church malignant
General Confession, etc.
Preface
Sanctus-Benedictus
Humble Access
Consecration
Lord's Prayer
Agnus Dei - during Communion
Prayer of Thanksgiving
Blessing
Closing Hymn
They tended to avoid Viennese settings because of the Benedictus problem. Trouble is that at this distance in time I cannot remember what they did sing.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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