Ship of Fools: Bishops' varied dress

Thread: Bishops' varied dress - Eric James' requiem Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

This can be seen as just gossip but it might start a discussion.

I am told by someone who was there that Eric James' requiem at Southwark Cathedral last week was attended by at least three bishops, ie:

Southwark, in cope and mitre in procession.

London, in rochet and chimere in procession.

Canterbury, in black cassock in the congregation.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I think a little bit more might be helpful in generating a discussion. Do you have a question about the observed episcopal vesture?

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

I'm not quite sure where this is going as a conversation, but at Lindy Runcie's funeral in St Albans Cathedral earlier this year there was a similar array of differently dressed bishops.

+St Albans in black chasuble (celebrating the Requiem)
+London and +Norwich in black copes with white mitres (+London was preaching and doing the committal; +Norwich was leading the intercessions)
Several others (can't remember who) in rochet and black chimere (possibly also with white mitres)

Plus various priests in the altar party in cotta/surplice and black stole, and the Dean and Sub Dean in black dalmatic and tunicle respectively.

I can sort of see the pattern, but it is a little hard to put into words...

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I think the point I was hinting at is Rowan's humility in just being in the congregation and wanting people to know.

I can sort of see why London was in choir dress and Southwark a bit more as it was his cathedral. But since they were neither doing anything other than being in the sanctuary party, they could have been dressed in the same uniform.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I think the point I was hinting at is Rowan's humility in just being in the congregation and wanting people to know.

I don't doubt Rowan's humility, but it would be rather counter-productive if he wanted people to know about it.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I understood that as meaning that he wanted folk to know that he attended, even though he wasn't up front.

Eric came in for quite a lot of stick so I am glad people showed their support. I wish i could have been there.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I don't think Rowan wanted folk to know he attended - he just wanted to be there in a private capacity.

Nobody here would know he attended if I hadn't indulged in tittle tattle.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Several others (can't remember who) in rochet and black chimere (possibly also with white mitres)

I'd be very surprised at wearing mitres with choir dress. Archbishop Gilbert Sheldon models the combination on his monument in Croydon Parish Church, but that is artistic licence. He hadn't read Ritual Notes.

Am I right in thinking C of E bishops are far more likely to be seen in cope and mitre (when not presiding at Holy Communion) than RC bishops?

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Several others (can't remember who) in rochet and black chimere (possibly also with white mitres)

I'd be very surprised at wearing mitres with choir dress. Archbishop Gilbert Sheldon models the combination on his monument in Croydon Parish Church, but that is artistic licence. He hadn't read Ritual Notes.

Am I right in thinking C of E bishops are far more likely to be seen in cope and mitre (when not presiding at Holy Communion) than RC bishops?

But ++Gilbert had, in a way surely characteristic of a saint of the church, anticipated the writings of the Blessed Percy.

Of the latter phenomenon, my Canadian experience is that Latin and Anglican bishops sport their mitres in almost equal proportions. Perhaps Latins less so at massed-bishop arrangements, such as when the CCCB is in session, where I have seen them all but the Nuncio and the (then) Cardinal Primate simply zucchettoed.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Looking at this from a bishop's point of view.

If I am the celebrant and it is the custom of the parish I wear Eucharistic vestments, and mitre at the appropriate points in the service. The the parish is a surplice and stole shack I will usually use rochet and stole and leave my chimere in the vestry, though sometimes the incumbant will tell me that the parish expects me to bring and wear cope and mitre.

When sitting in choir I will nearly always wear rochet and (black) chimere. I rarely wear scarlet.

If I am attending in a private capacity - black suit, black shirt with pectoral cross and ring... and sit as close to the back as I can manage.

PD

[ 22. May 2012, 17:10: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Several others (can't remember who) in rochet and black chimere (possibly also with white mitres)

I'd be very surprised at wearing mitres with choir dress. Archbishop Gilbert Sheldon models the combination on his monument in Croydon Parish Church, but that is artistic licence. He hadn't read Ritual Notes.

Am I right in thinking C of E bishops are far more likely to be seen in cope and mitre (when not presiding at Holy Communion) than RC bishops?

Many long years ago in my youth, I witnessed mitre being worn with choir dress in the Diocese of Northwest Texas by the late Rt Revd Willis Henton. This was no doubt also occasionally the use of +Samuel Seabury, the first bishop consecrated for the newly formed Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA, receiving the succession through the Scottish nonjurors. +Seabury wore a mitre at a time no other Anglican bishop did, and this surely would have been together with rochet and chimere.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:

If I am attending in a private capacity -...... and sit as close to the back as I can manage.

PD

Good to see the Continuing Anglicans are bearing witness to an ancient tradition. [Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by venbede
Am I right in thinking C of E bishops are far more likely to be seen in cope and mitre (when not presiding at Holy Communion) than RC bishops?

Probably. C of E bishops do like their tat. Especially the low church ones.

[ 22. May 2012, 17:23: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

It was a great relief to me that when I had sufficiently proved my incompetence to be kicked up to bishop that it happened in the USA. There is a tradition here of bishops being far less "tatie" than they have become in the UK. Cope and mitre over rochet seem to have become 'uniform of the day' for even relatively small scale liturgical functions which kind of devalues the currency.

One oddity one encounters in the USA is the expectation that the bishop will celebrate Mass in rochet, chimere and stole. I suspect this is a relic of a generation or two back when most bishops would have done most of their 'bishopping' in their magpipe. It looks very odd, though, and I try and avoid it. My predecessor habitually vested that way, and occasionally added the mitre for good measure [Eek!]

One also has to show a certain degree of pastoral sensitivity. As my diocese is tiny so I also function as a parish minister, and that occasioanlly throws up interesting situations. Last year I was asked to bury a chap who was only nominally attached to any church, but who lived close (two doors down) to mine. As the family were not Anglican - the closest relatives were RC converts - and most of those attending would have "Bible Church" backgrounds I did the service in gown and bands which kept everyone more-or-less in their comfort zone. I suspect that it was one occasion when a 'High Church' approach would have provoked an adverse reaction from the non-RCs. Nobody seemed to have a beef with the Prayerbook service, however.

PD

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Unless they have changed practice in very recent years, the Diocese of Texas (the geographical remnant of the original diocese in that state, covering the centre portion of Texas and part of the gulf coast, with its See at Houston) is one of those places where bishops normally celebrate the Eucharist vested in rochet, chimere and stole during visitations. This is also true for the somewhat misnamed Diocese of West Texas (See at San Antonio, and covering most of what is geographically and culturally South Texas). You can contrast that with the pontifical splendour of the Diocese of Dallas and the Diocese of Fort Worth, or the more MOTR Diocese of Northwest Texas. Dunno what they do in the Diocese of the Rio Grande that takes in both a bit of far west Trans-Pecos Texas as well as New Mexico.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
There is a tradition here of bishops being far less "tatie" than they have become in the UK. Cope and mitre over rochet seem to have become 'uniform of the day' for even relatively small scale liturgical functions which kind of devalues the currency.

I'm glad to say then that at the welcoming service for the new Bishop of Croydon here on Sunday (Choral Evensong) he and the other bishops present all wore rochets and chimeres with not a cope in sight.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Choir dress for a choir office. Quite proper.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Croydon Parish Church

Minster! Shame on you!
[Razz]

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Some serious work needs to be done on the burial of clergy wives.

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

Quite possibly ++Rowan's diary didn't allow for him to be there togged up alongside +Londin and +Southwark...

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
There is a tradition here of bishops being far less "tatie" than they have become in the UK. Cope and mitre over rochet seem to have become 'uniform of the day' for even relatively small scale liturgical functions which kind of devalues the currency.
I'm glad to say then that at the welcoming service for the new Bishop of Croydon here on Sunday (Choral Evensong) he and the other bishops present all wore rochets and chimeres with not a cope in sight.

I wasn't there, but have been reliably informed that +Croydon's cassock is a very bright shade of "off pink"

Posted by BenjaminS (# 13224) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Unless they have changed practice in very recent years, the Diocese of Texas (the geographical remnant of the original diocese in that state, covering the centre portion of Texas and part of the gulf coast, with its See at Houston) is one of those places where bishops normally celebrate the Eucharist vested in rochet, chimere and stole during visitations. This is also true for the somewhat misnamed Diocese of West Texas (See at San Antonio, and covering most of what is geographically and culturally South Texas). You can contrast that with the pontifical splendour of the Diocese of Dallas and the Diocese of Fort Worth, or the more MOTR Diocese of Northwest Texas. Dunno what they do in the Diocese of the Rio Grande that takes in both a bit of far west Trans-Pecos Texas as well as New Mexico.

+Texas celebrated at my parish in Austin this last Sunday wearing our white Chasuble, w/ mitre for the procession. I gather we're a bit higher than most of the rest of the diocese, though (but only formal MOTR for TEC as a whole). He wore the stole outside the chasuble, too, which struck me as odd.

Pictures from previous visits indicate that this is new, and he used to dress in rochet, chimere, and stole, as mentioned.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Some serious work needs to be done on the burial of clergy wives.

Alive or dead?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I wasn't there, but have been reliably informed that +Croydon's cassock is a very bright shade of "off pink"

I was there and there was no noticable difference in the shade of +Croydon's cassock and those of the other three bishops robed and in the sanctuary.

Sounds like a cheap insinuation to my mind.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BenjaminS:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Unless they have changed practice in very recent years, the Diocese of Texas (the geographical remnant of the original diocese in that state, covering the centre portion of Texas and part of the gulf coast, with its See at Houston) is one of those places where bishops normally celebrate the Eucharist vested in rochet, chimere and stole during visitations. This is also true for the somewhat misnamed Diocese of West Texas (See at San Antonio, and covering most of what is geographically and culturally South Texas). You can contrast that with the pontifical splendour of the Diocese of Dallas and the Diocese of Fort Worth, or the more MOTR Diocese of Northwest Texas. Dunno what they do in the Diocese of the Rio Grande that takes in both a bit of far west Trans-Pecos Texas as well as New Mexico.
+Texas celebrated at my parish in Austin this last Sunday wearing our white Chasuble, w/ mitre for the procession. I gather we're a bit higher than most of the rest of the diocese, though (but only formal MOTR for TEC as a whole). He wore the stole outside the chasuble, too, which struck me as odd.

Pictures from previous visits indicate that this is new, and he used to dress in rochet, chimere, and stole, as mentioned.

Ah, very interesting! Also sounds like your diocesan needs to catch up with the times. Wearing the stole over the chazzie was a flash in the pan fashion that one saw a few places in the 1970s, maybe into the 1980s -- horrid. I'm guessing your parish church is either: All Saints, Good Shepherd, or St David's (in that order of likelihood). They were wearing chazzies at All Saints back in the early 1970s when euchies weren't to be seen at either of the two aforementioned parishes (though they may have been in use at some of the small suburban parishes and missions, esp those started by the late Fr Malcolm Riker, and at St George's).

One of the previous suffragans of the Diocese of Texas a number of years ago, a rather plump little Cuban chap whose name I am forgetting, wanted to wear pontificals I've been told, but was prohibited from doing so by the diocesan at the time (+Claude Payne, I believe, or possibly +Maurice Benitez).

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:

If I am attending in a private capacity -...... and sit as close to the back as I can manage.

PD
Good to see the Continuing Anglicans are bearing witness to an ancient tradition.

quote:
Originally posted by venbede
Am I right in thinking C of E bishops are far more likely to be seen in cope and mitre (when not presiding at Holy Communion) than RC bishops?
Probably. C of E bishops do like their tat. Especially the low church ones.

Yes and their purple shirts. The low church ones never seem to wear black.

And CofE bishops seem always to wear the red chimere these days - apart from those who sit in the Lords when the black one seems in evidence.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Yes, Low Church Bishops love those purple shirts!

I only break out the purple when I need to make it very clear the bishop is present. Strangely I rarely need to do this with the clergy. Certain lay-folks who make a habit of sitting on committees do not always get the hint conveyed by the pectoral cross and the ring.

Otherwise I am a black shirted bishop, though I do not have the Anglo-Catholic/Affirming Catholic churchmanship usually associated with that. It seems to save me about five bucks a shirt when I need to replace some.

PD

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Yes and their purple shirts. The low church ones never seem to wear black.

And CofE bishops seem always to wear the red chimere these days - apart from those who sit in the Lords when the black one seems in evidence.

I wonder how much of this is a function of the general retreat of much of the CofE from wearing black in general.

For those bishops who as priests wore blue/turquoise/tartan/denim clerical shirts, it seems natural that they would choose a specifically coloured clerical shirt now one is appointed for them. Just as long as it isn't black.

Posted by Cruet (# 14586) on :

+Texas wears what ever the rector requests.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:

Otherwise I am a black shirted bishop ... It seems to save me about five bucks a shirt when I need to replace some.

PD

Mmm! ... Music to my ears.

The ubiquitous purple shirt of Anglican bishops happens to be one of my pet peeves. In days of my yoof, the 50s & 60s, Anglican bishops ordinarily wore the black waistcoat or rabat with, at most, the small bit of purple showing under the collar steps (from an underlying collero) or a bit of purple silk sewn directly onto the rabat at the neck.

Back then, for more formal occasions, Anglican bishops might wear a full, purple rabat with a round clerical collar. Usually no rebat steps were attached to with that rig. They wore a white cotton or linen shirt that could only be seen at the jacket cuffs underneath all these affairs.

Sometime since with the development of good cotton-polyester shirt fabrics and colorfast dyes we had the birth of the purple cotton-poly, wash and wear shirt. For some insrutable reason Anglican bishops began ordering and wearing the purple ones while at the same time Roman Catholic bishops went for black ones. Maybe that's because Anglican bishops normally wear a full purple choir cassock while RC bishops can often get away with wearing the amaranth piped soutane - don't know.

It's funny that our Rowan, the current Archbishop of Canterbury, is never seen in the purple shirt. It's always a black shirt for him, while those bishops of lower station or honor wear the purple. It's especially interesting to see that in group photos with him and other Anglican bishops.
[Biased]

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PD:
[qb] ...while RC bishops can often get away with wearing the amaranth piped soutane - don't know.

It's not a soutane it's a zimarra or simar.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cruet:
+Texas wears what ever the rector requests.

Which means +Texas now actually apparently owns a mitre!

Does he now actually carry the crosier himself, or is it borne ahead of him like a ceremonial mace,as was long the practice in the Diocese of Texas?

Posted by BenjaminS (# 13224) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by Cruet:
+Texas wears what ever the rector requests.
Which means +Texas now actually apparently owns a mitre!

Does he now actually carry the crosier himself, or is it borne ahead of him like a ceremonial mace,as was long the practice in the Diocese of Texas?

It was indeed borne! And a very nice golden crosier it was, too.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BenjaminS:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by Cruet:
+Texas wears what ever the rector requests.
Which means +Texas now actually apparently owns a mitre!

Does he now actually carry the crosier himself, or is it borne ahead of him like a ceremonial mace,as was long the practice in the Diocese of Texas?
It was indeed borne! And a very nice golden crosier it was, too.

Dude, that is so old fashioned low church!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

It's a long time since I saw and C of E bishop in a purple shirt: in his mufti the new +Croydon was in a black shirt and not a hint of purple, let alone pink, trimming.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It's a long time since I saw and C of E bishop in a purple shirt: in his mufti the new +Croydon was in a black shirt and not a hint of purple, let alone pink, trimming.

You ought to get out more

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It's a long time since I saw and C of E bishop in a purple shirt: in his mufti the new +Croydon was in a black shirt and not a hint of purple, let alone pink, trimming.

I saw four yesterday!

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PD:
[qb] ...while RC bishops can often get away with wearing the amaranth piped soutane - don't know.
It's not a soutane it's a zimarra or simar.

No, it's a samovar.
[Killing me]

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by Cruet:
+Texas wears what ever the rector requests.
Which means +Texas now actually apparently owns a mitre!

Does he now actually carry the crosier himself, or is it borne ahead of him like a ceremonial mace,as was long the practice in the Diocese of Texas?

Yes, yes & yes.

Andy Doyle wore a very fine, white custom made, cope & mitre at his ordination as bishop. He now carries his staff, and did so at that time. Suffragan bishop Dana Harrison wears the mitre and full vestments. Actually, retired bishop Don Wimberly had his own mitres and vestments from his time in Lexington, and I've seen several photos of him so arrayed since his time in Texas.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PD:
[qb] ...while RC bishops can often get away with wearing the amaranth piped soutane - don't know.
It's not a soutane it's a zimarra or simar.
No, it's a samovar.

Well, that's tea (Russian style - black; three sugars) all over the keyboard.

PD

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