Ship of Fools: That would be an ecumenical matter...

Thread: That would be an ecumenical matter... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Rex Monday (# 2569) on :

Hello, all...

I'm planning a novel, my second, and part of the plot will revolve around a project where the Anglican hierarchy donates some bells to a Russian Orthodox cathedral in a spirit of good will and shared tradition. (Of course, this doesn't go at all well... certain Orthodox distate at branch theology is the very least of it. Or is it?)

I'm researching how this would be done, but I don't know enough about how the practical side of the two churches' interaction to be plausible. Who'd be liason, and what sort of anicllary interactions might there be?

The other thing I'm researching, with some enjoyment but not very much progress, is the Orthodox tradition of bellringing. I've found some online resources, but again - any pointers welcome. In particular, what sort of service might there be to commission the bells, and what sort of ringing?

Thanks for any suggestions. The plot is actually a great deal stranger than the above indicates, and I have a lot of latitude to invent stuff, but I'd like to get the very basic bits right

R

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

This rang a muffled bell with me--and it occurred to me that you could do worse than look up the story of the Danilov bells which hung in Lowell House at Harvard for years, until they were returned to Russia. There was a New Yorker article about it.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Well, unless the bells came from a church slated to be demolished, it sure would be a fantastically generous donation in the name of ecumenism. It makes me feel real swell that someone imagines us Anglicans are that generous.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

You might be interested in the Whitechapel Bell Foundry's price list. The smallest in-stock bell costs £ 2,185, and that's without the hanging hardware, shipping, installation and the like.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rex Monday:
Hello, all...

I'm planning a novel, my second, and part of the plot will revolve around a project where the Anglican hierarchy donates some bells to a Russian Orthodox cathedral in a spirit of good will and shared tradition.

And the bells will be cast from a sub-critical mass of uranium, as will the clappers. Transported separately to Russia, disaster will strike ( [Big Grin]

) if the bells are ever rung. It's up to Rev Goodbody and his crack team of campanologists to avert disaster and save the Patriarch!

Posted by Rex Monday (# 2569) on :

I don't want to say too much else about the plot. except that in context, the C of E is in a position to be that generous and then quite a bit more. Imagine it at the height of its British Empire pomp.

Posted by Rex Monday (# 2569) on :

Ah, Doc Tor! If only uranium had the requisite tensile and ductile characteristics, how profound would the changes be when rung!

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Aha. www.danilovbells.com
It could be done. Though you would have to explain how an English cathedral had that money to spare and was persuaded to spend it in that manner. It would be more understandable if someone in the City persuaded everyone in his firm to donate their bonuses for this purpose.

They should come from Taylor's. And have names and inscriptions. I am assuming this novel will be set in the present.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

What I did pick up from my time in Russia is that, to be true to life, you'd have a Russian Cathedral where they had to have more bells than everyone else (eg. Ivan the Great Tower has 21 bells), bigger than everyone else (the Tsar bell next to this tower is the biggest in the world, and so big that a huge piece cracked off it and it has never been hung) and that, if anything went wrong, there'd be a huge cover-up.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Not exactly change ringing.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

The Church of England was known for being an especially shabby affair even back in the day, and important churchmen were not shy about just flat out pocketing any surplus that did show up. I concur with the thought that the Church would have to have some rich patron backing the move.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

IIRC it was a rich Brit residing in New York City who gave the new ring of 12(?) bells to Trinity Church, Wall Street a while back.

There were some bits about the event on YouTube, perhaps still there. Film included casting of the bells (Whitechapel?), their installation and blessing, and some footage of ringers at work.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

Perhaps a wealthy benefactor of the C of E who has both Anglicans and Orthodox in his or her own family is behind it. Maybe the occasion for the gift is a wedding.

Or the idea of the bells coming from a church that was destroyed is an interesting one. Why would the church decide to give its (undamaged) bells to an Orthodox church? I suppose there could be all kinds of reasons, including ecumenism in the air. But if the bells are from a church that's destroyed (or perhaps its congregation has been merged into another parish) would remove some of the issues about money. Shipping them to Russia would be rather expensive, though, but not as expensive as buying new bells and shipping them. Perhaps the receiving church is responsible for the cost of installation.

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

The Anglican church as I've known it, is happy to pay lip service to ecumenical projects, providing it doesn't cost them anything. If someone else foots the bill and they get good press they are more than happy for this to happen.

When bells are installed it can be a huge event - like an outdoor festival. And as the orthodox have a Saints feast day to celebrate every day of the year, it would be huge. But I could really only see that happening if some of the metal in the bells, or one of the bells itself had a Russian connection, and so was "coming home" to the orthodoxen.

Posted by Rex Monday (# 2569) on :

Thanks everyone... but really, don't worry about the cost, construction, shipping, etc.

All these things are taken care of! It really is how the bureaucracies of the two churches would handle the politics of it that I'm most curious about.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I imagine the extravagance of the gift would cause a major scandal in the Church of England, and the Russians would be gratified, bewildered, but still not about to give the CoE the time of day.

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rex Monday:
Thanks everyone... but really, don't worry about the cost, construction, shipping, etc.

All these things are taken care of! It really is how the bureaucracies of the two churches would handle the politics of it that I'm most curious about.

I think that would depend on why the bells would be going, and when it's set. From the Anglican point of view, it would probably be an Archdeacon involved - they're the ones who deal with church buildings and their contents.

If the novel is set in the present day, the Diocesan Advisory Committee for the Care of Churches (DAC) and the Church Buildings Officer (usually a lay person) of the Diocese would be involved.

Let me know if you want more about the arcane and sinister machinations of the DAC....

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

I just lost a long reply to this due to a computer crash. I'll try again later.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Earwig: Let me know if you want more about the arcane and sinister machinations of the DAC....

Are they the ones that covered up that Jesus secretly married Mary of Magdalene and then ran off to France? [Biased]

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

Second attempt...

quote:
Originally posted by Rex Monday:
Hello, all...

I'm planning a novel, my second, and part of the plot will revolve around a project where the Anglican hierarchy donates some bells to a Russian Orthodox cathedral in a spirit of good will and shared tradition. (Of course, this doesn't go at all well... certain Orthodox distate at branch theology is the very least of it. Or is it?)

I'm researching how this would be done, but I don't know enough about how the practical side of the two churches' interaction to be plausible. Who'd be liason, and what sort of anicllary interactions might there be?

The other thing I'm researching, with some enjoyment but not very much progress, is the Orthodox tradition of bellringing. I've found some online resources, but again - any pointers welcome. In particular, what sort of service might there be to commission the bells, and what sort of ringing?

Thanks for any suggestions. The plot is actually a great deal stranger than the above indicates, and I have a lot of latitude to invent stuff, but I'd like to get the very basic bits right

R

I'm not sure what the branch theory would have to do with anything. Differences in ecclesiology in places where Anglicans and Orthodox live side by side do not prevent civil and friendly behaviour. Hospitality and gifts are not uncommon. The only significant difference here would be the magnitude.

If it were just an ordinary parish receiving the gift, it could all be arranged by the rector, provided he had his bishop's blessing. Some parishes are so constituted that they have a parish council that would work with the rector. ss it is a cathedral parish, it would almost certainly have a parish council. The ruling bishop is ex officio rector of all cathedrals within his diocese, so he, along with the council, would handle the practical and logistical arrangements of receiving a gift of bells, especially as this would require significant organisation, such as the construction of a belfry, and what have you. It is likely that the council would appoint one or two representatives to liaise with the donor, and that they would report back to the council.

All of the practicalities, politics, and ecclesiology aside, though, the elephant in the room, (and please do not be offended by this) is the sheer unbelievability of it all.

British change-ringing, typified in many Anglican churches and civic buildings across Great Britain, and Russian Orthodox church bell ringing are so very different that this touches on the tuning and relative tonality of the bells, the manner in which they are hung and the manner in which they are designed to be rung, all to such an extent that I find it very difficult indeed to imagine a set of bells cast for one purpose lending themselves in any realistic way to the other. It would be find if all you wanted was a blagovest - any single, deep bell would do - but it would become difficult once you tried to ring a trezvon. (These various methods are rubrically defined for specific purposes and points in services, BTW.)

There is only one cathedral in my diocese. It is yet incomplete and there are plans for the construction of a belfry. I just cannot imagine the bishop and the parish council being willing to put in it anything other than bells that have been cast with Russian Orthodox bell-ringing in mind.

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Earwig: Let me know if you want more about the arcane and sinister machinations of the DAC....
Are they the ones that covered up that Jesus secretly married Mary of Magdalene and then ran off to France?

Shh! They'll hear you!

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Now I find myself speculating on what kind of novel Rex Monday is writing, in which a donation of church bells from the Anglican to the Orthodox church plays a dominant role. (You don't have to tell me of course, this is just innocent banter.) Are they filled with drugs? [Biased]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

As an aside, I wondered about the Anglican Church in Moscow (Mr. C's church when he worked there for 18 months) - it has a bell tower but no bells (only orthodox churches were allowed to ring bells). I could imagine a scenario where the church was given bells which they were not allowed to use and so therefore donated them to the Orthodox instead.

But of course we must not write Rex Monday's book for him.....

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

The ancient bells of St Martin's in the Fields - one of the most famous churches in England - were donated to the government of Western Australia when the new ones were put in not long ago.

So it can happen.

And it *has* the be Whitechapel!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rex Monday:
t really is how the bureaucracies of the two churches would handle the politics of it that I'm most curious about.

OK, serious answer to that question from the Anglican side.

Church bells, like all the fixtures and fittings of parish churches, are owned by the parish, not the diocese or the CofE as a whole. so if a redundant set were donated somewhere else that would be up to the parish to decide. No bishops need be involved. There is no Anglican Vatican, no Central Committee of Supreme Soviet that has the power, or the desire, to make a parish church give up anything.

Bells are renewed or changed from time to time and it is quite possible that s parish installing a new set would give their old set away.

All changes to a parish church building require permission, as do all disposals of parish property. The permission is called a "faculty". For minor matters (like moving a lectern from one side of a room to another, or fixing a broken lock, or selling a cup - I kid you not) the permission comes from the Archdeacon, for major matters - like changes to the external appearance or a new set of bells - it comes from a character called the Chancellor of the diocese. The Chancellor is a lawyer, usually a barrister, and often does the job part-time - perhaps doubling-up as a legal advisor to the diocese, or else being Chancellor of more than one diocese, or carrying on their practice as a barrister. The Chancellor is also technically a judge in what is called the Consistory Court, which, as the CoifE is By Law Established, meaneth that the Chancellor is a real pukka judge in English law.

There is a body called the Diocesan Advisory Committee, always a "DAC". This is made up of the Archdeacons and a largish and variable number of co-opted volunteers who tend to be architects, historians, liturgiologists and so on. They advise the Chancellor on whether to grant permission, and their advice is taken approximately 100% of the time.

Formal planning permission is not needed, but if a church is a listed building (and almost all are) "English Heritage" (the sickeningly Marketdroid brandname of the Historic Building and Monuments Commission) must be "consulted". In practice the consultation will be done by a local panel made up of civil servants and volunteers. The chances are that these people will be clones of the members of the DAC. In fact they might even be the same people.

You could Google "DAC" and "bells" and "faculty" and see what comes up - but meanwhile here's a plausible scenario for a Church of England parish church donating ancient bells to someone else might be:

1) Mrs Miggin's cat dies leaving her hundreds of thousands of pounds in its will

2) Mrs Miggins donates the money to the parish - on condition that they use part of it to get a new shiny set of bells from the Whitechapel Bell Foundry. (Yes sometimes people really do make donations like that)

3) Vicar has informal chat to the Archdeacon about it. Archdeacon points out that a Faculty will only be provided if the old bells are disposed of in a reverent and suitable manner.

4) Vicar gets the PCC to agree - this is the first step in getting a Faculty. Someone on PCC once read a book about the Orthodox Church and thinks it sounds almost as cool and liturgical as Taize or Iona so gets bee in bonnet about donating old bells to Russians.

5) Vicar and a few keenies in the church go to DAC to ask them what they think. They ask to see the old bells and say that English Heritage must be told.

6) A party of old women in tweed suits turns up from EH and DAC and inspect old bells and agree that they are quite nice but not of any great historic importance so can be disposed of reverently. Russians count as reverent.

7) Vicar and the PCCs Fabric Subcommittee get together with a friendly neighbourhood architect (who is on the DAC anyway) and discuss plans and pricing. They get the Bell Foundry to do a survey of the tower (and the bloke they send is the consultant the DAC use for things to do with bells)

8) Plans drawn up and rubber-stamped by PCC, then sent to DAC to apply for Faculty.

9) DAC advise granting faculty - after all they basically wrote the apllication

10) Local journalist hears about it and starts a campaign to Save Our Bells. Elderly members of neighbourhood Conservation Society petition the Chancellor. Archdeacon has the ringleaders quietly assassinated or bribed, and that's the end of that.

11) Chancellor grants Faculty.

12) Bell Foundry installs new bells and carefully removes old ones and transports them to... where?

13) Big piss-up on vicarage lawn on first Sunday new bells are rung.

[ 20. June 2012, 16:14: Message edited by: ken ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Archdeacon has the ringleaders quietly assassinated or bribed, and that's the end of that.

I can see the glint in Archdeacon Robert's eye now!

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

I like bell-ringing: wish we had it in the US = both my RC cathedral and the Frank Lloyd Wright-designed protestant church that we used to go to have electronically-controlled bells.

That said, I remember ringing bells somewhere in England, maybe Cirencester. It was fun for the entire family!

Good luck! [Smile]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Bell ringing never really caught on in the US, and churches that do have them tend to have only one small bell, rarely ring them, or are sued by their heathen neighbors for making a racket. Boston has two sets of change ringing bells, but they are both muffled I believe.

[ 20. June 2012, 17:16: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

Does Foundry UMC in Washington DC have actual tower bells? I thought I remembered that from my visit there eleven years ago.

I'm very curious about this book, Rex Monday!

Posted by Rex Monday (# 2569) on :

Now this, this is gold dust. Thanks very much, everyone, it's exactly the sort of reality trellis I need on which to train the vine of imagination.

I shall say more, but I'm having to limit my online time just at the moment due to eye bollockry.

As for all the caveats and practical considerations: yes, absolutely, agreed. But this is a novel. You get to make things up.

R

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Sir Kevin: That said, I remember ringing bells somewhere in England, maybe Cirencester. It was fun for the entire family!

When I was a child, my father was a substitute caretaker for our church. Sometimes I'd go with him when he'd ring the heavy church bell, and of course he'd give me a try too. This was actually a bit dangerous, because the possibility existed that the bell would pull me up. But what I remember mostly, is that after the first time I had blisters on my hands for a week!

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

Each of the bells in the belltowers I know about are named. The ones in the Anglican cathedral of this diocese are each named after ships. Are the bells in an orthodox bellfry given names? - and is there a special naming ceremony?

If there is more likelihood of a single bell being donated and accepted, then I would like to suggest the perfect name for a bell is: 'Cain'... [Big Grin]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I don't think we have a tradition of naming bells in Holland, at least not in protestant churches. The bell in my parents' church is even recognized as a National Monument, but I don't think it has a name.

Although I think some neighbours might call it Ohwontyoushutupalready on Sunday mornings [Biased]

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Sir Kevin: That said, I remember ringing bells somewhere in England, maybe Cirencester. It was fun for the entire family!
When I was a child, my father was a substitute caretaker for our church. Sometimes I'd go with him when he'd ring the heavy church bell, and of course he'd give me a try too. This was actually a bit dangerous, because the possibility existed that the bell would pull me up. But what I remember mostly, is that after the first time I had blisters on my hands for a week!

The peal of six bells in 'my' village is the heaviest in the world. I think the tower captain requires references before letting anyone he doesn't know touch a bell rope. People come miles to 'have a go' and thereby to qualify a "Heavy Metal" T shirt.

All the bells are named and inscribed with their dates and foundries. The tower earns money with open days.

There is absolutely no chance of our bells being given away: the church would fall down first (a distinct possibility, actually).

"Ding Dong" tin mine, now derelict, is not so far away, though not in the parish. [Biased]

[ 21. June 2012, 13:31: Message edited by: Morlader ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Morlader: The peal of six bells in 'my' village is the heaviest in the world. I think the tower captain requires references before letting anyone he doesn't know touch a bell rope. People come miles to 'have a go' and thereby to qualify a "Heavy Metal" T shirt.

Nice! I think the most important quality a ringer of this kind of bells should have, is knowing when to let go! I learned that the hard way...

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