Ship of Fools: Bloody pedantic xenophobic dipsticks

Thread: Bloody pedantic xenophobic dipsticks Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Okay: it's the Diocese of Sydney again. Indeed it's a Jensen again, I believe. My sister in law directs conducts blah blah blah an anglican school choir. She is pretty much a benevolent agnostic. So are - were - most of the choir. But they love to sing the music that tickles the fibres of heaven.

So they arrange to sing at Sydney's Anglican cathedral, St Andrew's.

But their program was rejected: oh no ... you can't sing anything not in fucking English.

Because God might not understand it, I guess. He's English, after all.

There went most of the programme. Dudes like Bach and Palestrina and all those woggie buggers miss out. Rutter alone made the cut.

Fucktards.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

Funny, but I thought Welsh was the language of heaven.
[Confused]

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

That's what you get when you get a Pentecostal as a bishop. He probably thinks that God is English. After all, King James and his cohorts said so!

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

Love the sentiments, Zappa, but this is not new. Not even the cathedral choir can sing in anything other than English. I doubt that the reason is God understands only English. Other connotations are attached to some languages and as for unknown tongues, that might be even worse.

Now you know why some of us seem to be bashing our heads against a wall here.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Would 'Fuck off Jensen- and fuck off the other Jensen- in fact fuck off both of you' be plain enough English? I'm sure soemone could compose a setting.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

This reminds me of when i was a teenager. our school choir sang regular concerts in the town centre (evangelical) church - until the rector discovered we were doing Brahms' Requiem. He objected to prayers for the departed, seemingly unaware that Brahms did write a traditional requiem but words of comfort for those who mourn.

So we moved our concerts, as did all the other choral societies in the town, to the 'Prayer Book Catholic' church up the road.

I started worshipping there too and look back to it with great affection.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
But their program was rejected: oh no ... you can't sing anything not in fucking English.

I can't even begin to understand why anyone would object to a choir singing religious music in the language in which it was written in a concert or service [Confused]

. It raises the meaning of 'philistine' (at least, there must be other descriptives, too) to a whole new level.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

With brains like that I'm surprised they can even recognize from the composers' names that the pieces might not be in English. Surely the temptation is to say, "Oh no, this is one of his English pieces"?

I suppose that would be a lie. Oh well.

[wishful thought] pity we can't dig up some of the temple/synagogue music in Hebrew from Jesus' day. Love to see them reject THAT.

[ 15. July 2012, 13:29: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

This thread amuses me, considering the setting.
Just try posting something here in Hebrew or Greek without a translation, or perhaps a quote from Luther in German.
The answer in the case of the cathedral, of course, is that the belief held there is that the congregation attending is the audience for worship, and not that it is directed toward God as an act of praise of God.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
This thread amuses me, considering the setting.
Just try posting something here in Hebrew or Greek without a translation, or perhaps a quote from Luther in German.
The answer in the case of the cathedral, of course, is that the belief held there is that the congregation attending is the audience for worship, and not that it is directed toward God as an act of praise of God.

You're really claiming parallel cases for posting on an English-language discussion board and singing a piece of religious music intended either for concert or worship written in non-English?

Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on :

A slightly over-enthusiastic interpretation of Article 26, perhaps?

quote:

XXIV. Of Speaking in the Congregation in such a Tongue as the people understandeth.
It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church to have public Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understanded of the people.

[ 15. July 2012, 17:41: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Silver Faux:

quote:
The answer in the case of the cathedral, of course, is that the belief held there is that the congregation attending is the audience for worship, and not that it is directed toward God as an act of praise of God.

Well put.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He objected to prayers for the departed, seemingly unaware that Brahms did write a traditional requiem but words of comfort for those who mourn.

Presumably you mean "didn't write a traditional requiem"

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
A slightly over-enthusiastic interpretation of Article 26, perhaps?

quote:

XXIV. Of Speaking in the Congregation in such a Tongue as the people understandeth.
It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church to have public Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understanded of the people.

I suspect that's pretty much it. I need to emphasize, passe Pete, that the Jensens are not Pentecostal. They do however say that if nasty libruls continue to white-ant the Good Evangelical Church of Cranmer the mantle of God's choosing will pass to Hillsong and its ilk. Presumably as long as they don't sing in tongues.

Yup, Lothlorien, I sometimes forget how thick a barrier Checkpoint Chasuble is. Though God knows we have our share of the dipsticks seeking to take over the north.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
A slightly over-enthusiastic interpretation of Article 26, perhaps?

quote:

XXIV. Of Speaking in the Congregation in such a Tongue as the people understandeth.
It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church to have public Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understanded of the people.

As I understand it, the Primitive Church had lots of people praying in tongues that almost nobody could understand. Paul thought that in public worship, if people were going to speak tongues, there should be an interpreter. The equivalent in the cathedral situation would be program notes containing the translations from the Latin and German. Easy-peasy if someone really wants to abide by the spirit of the "Primitive" Church and not just continue to shadow box a long settled battle of the Reformation. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

Article 26 was my first thought, too. Kudos to them for recognizing that the choir's singing is prayer - prayer from the whole people, in fact. However, nothing's stopping anyone from printing the English translation in the service leaflet (assuming it's a service) or concert program.

Besides, the music itself, before you even get to the sense of the words, is prayer. Otherwise they'd have to ban voluntaries and postludes and improvisation during services. If anyone can't understand the German (e.g.), or read the English translation, what's stopping them from praying with the beauty inherent in the music?

Philistines indeed, if they think the only point of music is a delivery system for doctrinally correct, rational thoughts expressed in English.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Reminds me of the time when my sons' CofE school choir was told that, under no circumstances, would they be allowed to sing at the Family Service at their affiliated church. It's the only Family Service I've ever come across where the adults led everything and the children were supposed to just sit in the pews not taking part [Confused]

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Okay: it's the Diocese of Sydney again. Indeed it's a Jensen again, I believe. My sister in law directs conducts blah blah blah an anglican school choir. She is pretty much a benevolent agnostic. So are - were - most of the choir. But they love to sing the music that tickles the fibres of heaven.

So they arrange to sing at Sydney's Anglican cathedral, St Andrew's.

But their program was rejected: oh no ... you can't sing anything not in fucking English.

Because God might not understand it, I guess. He's English, after all.

There went most of the programme. Dudes like Bach and Palestrina and all those woggie buggers miss out. Rutter alone made the cut.

Fucktards.

In which case I'd suggest pointedly teaching the kids half of Sydney Carter's back catalogue. Start with Lord of the Dance and One More Step Along the Road I Go. Then move on to The Devil Wore a Crucifix and Friday Morning. Throw in Standing in the Rain if you are lucky enough to be performing near Christmas.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

There went most of the programme. Dudes like Bach and Palestrina and all those woggie buggers miss out. Rutter alone made the cut.

The truly horrific thing about that is that there exists a choir that can't think of any better English songs to sing than Rutter.
[Projectile]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Oh Lor', yes. Charming muzak for National Trust gift shops in the weeks before Christmas, but otherwise...

[ 16. July 2012, 15:39: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

It seems to me they're biting of their nose to spite their face - they're missing out on so much sublime music. If they're that bothered about the congregation not understanding it, they could do what we do: print the text and a translation in the bulletin/order of service (we print the words of the anthem anyway, with a translation if it's not in English).

As for having to sing nothing but Rutter ... [Snore]

A little Rutter goes a long way.

Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :

Oh the irony....
Music by christians in nasty foreign languages is unacceptable.
Music in the english that God intended by an (at best) agnostic who cares more for the form of religion than the truth of the Gospel --- that's just fine and dandy.

Citation From the middle of the bit that starts 34:34:13. Do note the comment on Evangelical worship

[LINK UNSAFE FOR WORK OR ANYWHERE ELSE ACTUALLY]

[ETA Broke that link, T² Hellhost]

[ 17. July 2012, 06:30: Message edited by: Think² ]

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

People (like the Jensens) seem to have missed the point that this choir was giving a concert, not leading worship. Whatever they may think appropriate for a SUnday "meeting" is their legitimate business. Why are they sticking their noses into the program of a concert by a choir that has rented their building as a concert-hall?

John

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Oh the irony....
Music by christians in nasty foreign languages is unacceptable.
Music in the english that God intended by an (at best) agnostic who cares more for the form of religion than the truth of the Gospel --- that's just fine and dandy.

Citation From the middle of the bit that starts 34:34:13. Do note the comment on Evangelical worship

Your link is to a pornographic game site. You meant to do that? [Mad]

Or did you have more than one browser tab open and copied the wrong one in your reply. [Mad]

[ETA Broke that link, T² Hellhost]

[ 17. July 2012, 06:29: Message edited by: Think² ]

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
People (like the Jensens) seem to have missed the point that this choir was giving a concert, not leading worship. Whatever they may think appropriate for a SUnday "meeting" is their legitimate business. Why are they sticking their noses into the program of a concert by a choir that has rented their building as a concert-hall?

John

Custodians of religious buildings have an interest that the "Use of the builings is consistent with doctrine".

UCCan Boards of Trustees are legally bound under the United Church of Canada Act to ensure that our church buildings are used in accordance with our doctrine.

Further, Sessions have control of the Sanctuary. We can and will vet programs of people who choose to rent the sanctuary. Thats part of my job.

Mind you, my Sydney cousins are just fine, whereas yours seem to want to march out of step....

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

quote:
Mind you, my Sydney cousins are just fine, whereas yours seem to want to march out of step....

Now, SPK, that's the wrong way round. Sydney arrogantly sees everyone else as not only out of step, but wrong.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Oh the irony....
Music by christians in nasty foreign languages is unacceptable.
Music in the english that God intended by an (at best) agnostic who cares more for the form of religion than the truth of the Gospel --- that's just fine and dandy.

Citation From the middle of the bit that starts 34:34:13. Do note the comment on Evangelical worship

[LINK UNSAFE FOR WORK OR ANYWHERE ELSE ACTUALLY]

3rdFooter

Even in Hell, the 2 click rule applies. Do this again and I will have your guts for garters.

Is that clear? I sure hope so.

PeteC
Hellhost

[ETA Broke that link for you Pete !, T²]

[ 17. July 2012, 06:27: Message edited by: Think² ]

Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Yup, Lothlorien, I sometimes forget how thick a barrier Checkpoint Chasuble is. Though God knows we have our share of the dipsticks seeking to take over the north.

Evangelical cane toads from the south...

The cathedral used to be my parish church several lifetimes ago. Nothing that these narrow minded bastards does surprises me any more. Quibbles over the Latin/English singing was nothing compared the nastiness dished out to some individuals.

Fucktards indeed [Mad]

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Both Jensens are, as most people realise, completely mad. Were they not irritating to thinking people in their proximity, the best advice one might suppose is to ignore them.

They simply do not exist.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Both Jensens are, as most people realise, completely mad. [...]
They simply do not exist.

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

The choir could always emulate those Dutch nuns in the Japanese prisoner of war camp! The Dutch nuns and the English women who were imprisoned with them couldn't communicate very well, but they all knew the same classical music - so they formed a choir in which they could all hum the tunes together.
Voila! No language problems at all!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Ah yes, but then they might be humming in Dutch, mightn't they? Jensen'd better ban humming too, just to be on the safe side.

[ 18. July 2012, 20:10: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

What language does the word 'la' come from?

How about 'ah'? Or 'bom'?

There must be a good English vocalisation out there somewhere!

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

There went most of the programme. Dudes like Bach and Palestrina and all those woggie buggers miss out. Rutter alone made the cut.
The truly horrific thing about that is that there exists a choir that can't think of any better English songs to sing than Rutter.

No, no, no ... silly boy. I can't think of any other English composers. Oh ... is Kendrick English? In reality I have no idea what they came up with. Probably, if it were designed to please some elitist musical snob it would be someone like Fux. Did he write in English? Could be appropriate, because it's what I would like to say to fucktard spiritual elitists like the Jensens and to sneering musical would-be elitist try-hards who think that because music is accessible, a la Rutter, then it is somehow infradig.

Sort of ecclesiastical equivalents of phylactery paraders.

[ 19. July 2012, 02:01: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What language does the word 'la' come from?

How about 'ah'? Or 'bom'?

There must be a good English vocalisation out there somewhere!

I know the Alleluya Chorus was written in English, but how English is Alleluya?

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

I love the term "Checkpoint Chasuble". I've read the vow that clergy have to make about not using it. Muppets!

Checkpoint Chasuble is far too close to here. And the poison is likely to spread this way.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
A slightly over-enthusiastic interpretation of Article 26, perhaps?

quote:

XXIV. Of Speaking in the Congregation in such a Tongue as the people understandeth.
It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church to have public Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understanded of the people.
I suspect that's pretty much it. I need to emphasize, passe Pete, that the Jensens are not Pentecostal. They do however say that if nasty libruls continue to white-ant the Good Evangelical Church of Cranmer the mantle of God's choosing will pass to Hillsong and its ilk. Presumably as long as they don't sing in tongues.

Yup, Lothlorien, I sometimes forget how thick a barrier Checkpoint Chasuble is. Though God knows we have our share of the dipsticks seeking to take over the north.

Trouble is the Jensens have chucked out the Cranmerian Baby along with the bathwater. Try finding something resembling a BCP Service at a reasonable hour (i.e. not 7am) in Sydney and you will see what I mean. With few exceptions the diocese is wall to wall Service of the Word. They are neo-Puritans if you ask me.

PD

[ 19. July 2012, 15:21: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Fradgan (# 16455) on :

Foreign-type languages are just fine as long as they are yelled and over-enunciated.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

and Latin with rich rolling Italiante vowel sounds. But that is another debate.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

PD:

quote:
They are neo-Puritans if you ask me.

Makes sense. I always got the impression that the original Puritans thought of themselves as Neo-Anglican- the real Anglicans. The Jensens thought it was a handsome mantle and put it on.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Ah yes, but then they might be humming in Dutch, mightn't they? Jensen'd better ban humming too, just to be on the safe side.

Dutch might just pass muster as being acceptably Calvinist. (Provided one forgets about the secular Dutch libruls and Flemish Catholics).

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

Dutch would not pass muster just because it's Dutch. English only means English only.

If I could be bothered I'd see if the carols from the cathedral was still available to watch. The dean had a business suit.The cathedral choir wore choir robes. That in itself is unusual. They did a great job considering the limitations placed on them and the soloists were good. Some of us watched and reported on Aus/NZ thread the next day. We all watched varying amounts. Nobody managed to watch it in entirety. I had finger on mute button and used it whenever the Dean popped up like a grinning jack in the box. Typical sermon from him which was far too long.

Those of you accustomed to the Kings College, Cambridge presentation, would have been horrified.

[ 20. July 2012, 10:32: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

I suppose they weren't allowed to sing Ding! Dong! Merrily on high* because of the Gloria in excelsises.

* or Angels from the realms of glory or quite a few other carols for that matter ...

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
Dutch would not pass muster just because it's Dutch. English only means English only.

If I could be bothered I'd see if the carols from the cathedral was still available to watch. The dean had a business suit.

Vile

The cathedral choir wore choir robes. That in itself is unusual. They did a great job considering the limitations placed on them and the soloists were good. Some of us watched and reported on Aus/NZ thread the next day. We all watched varying amounts. Nobody managed to watch it in entirety. I had finger on mute button and used it whenever the Dean popped up like a grinning jack in the box. Typical sermon from him which was far too long.

ugh

Those of you accustomed to the Kings College, Cambridge presentation, would have been horrified.

Indeed

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
I suppose they weren't allowed to sing Ding! Dong! Merrily on high* because of the Gloria in excelsises.

* or Angels from the realms of glory or quite a few other carols for that matter ...

More likely because of the phrase 'merrily on high' might upset their subterranean sensibilities. Most def not 'Angels from the Realms of Glory' because of the worrying line for them 'saints before the altar bending'.

Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :

One wag once pointed out to me that the Jensens wouldn't ever like a choir to sing "Deep River" because it had "cross" and "camp" in the same sentence...

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Most def not 'Angels from the Realms of Glory' because of the worrying line for them 'saints before the altar bending'.

To be fair, which they don't deserve, I think the Jensens would permit that - because the celestial altar is the only altar before which saints may bow.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I notice that Mission Praise left that verse out to be on the safe side.

Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To be fair, which they don't deserve, I think the Jensens would permit that

No they didn't permit that. Any hymns with "altar" in them generally were corrected to "table".

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

When fuckwittery reaches that level I only have one question...

"Where's the blasted Scotch??!!"

Which I guess is the cry of the seriously distressed MOTR Anglican. Mind you the Jenson would be after me for being MOTR, wearing a stole and using the BCP even before I mentioned the Whisky.

PD

[ 23. July 2012, 04:37: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :

The Jensens don't drink, either.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Oh crap! I hope I never run into them at Confessing Anglican mafia meetings.

PD

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To be fair, which they don't deserve, I think the Jensens would permit that
No they didn't permit that. Any hymns with "altar" in them generally were corrected to "table".

Oh for fuck's sake.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic:
The Jensens don't drink, either.

But it has bveen reported that they do actually breathe.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic:
The Jensens don't drink, either.
But it has bveen reported that they do actually breathe.

Oh, dear me, yes. What a waste of good space both they and you use, by resurrecting a thread that was nicely fading away. And what a lame dredge on your part.

Toodles

PeteC
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