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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Teaching about Evolution caused the Aurora shooting
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
or so Tweets Rick Warren: "When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it"
As the commenter says: "Fails to recognise that animals do not take semi-automatic weapons to kill crowds of their own species"
In a follow-up post the commenter points out that the US has the worst record in industrialised countries for refusing to accept science as a subject, particularly on evolution, while also having by far the highest assault and murder rate, which would indicate that it is precisely because there is such bad teaching on evolution that we have that murder rate - or, at least, that argument can be made more strongly than Warren's.
So, aren't you glad that Christians have a spokesman as nice as Rick Warren? At least he didn't link the whole thing with gays for once.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Sorry, this just in
Apparently, Rick Warren had issues with the actual teaching of evolution, but issued his Tweet during the emotional-overload peak just after the Aurora shooting.
But, as the commenter points out, this isn't much better. Rick Warren wants to keep all information related to sex away from students, and will then be surprised (and Horrified! Yes, Horrified!) when the hormonal little darlings get pregnant.
Read the rest of the piece for a better response.
I have little positive to say about Rick Warren since the Uganda fiasco, so I have to admit that my mind jumped to a nasty conclusion when I read the first piece. (not a very Hellish comment, but, hey life goes on).
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
Oh dear. I guess Caligula, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and that German serial killer whose name has slipped my mind--they were all avid students of biology, right?
If Mr. Warren is correct, then biology students and biologists ought be crime-prone individuals. Is this what we see when we study criminology? Somehow, I would guess not.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What do we expect from someone who despises science? I wouldn't be surprised by anything ignorant or ridiculous such a person might say.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Rick Warren wants to keep all information related to sex away from students, and will then be surprised (and Horrified! Yes, Horrified!) when the hormonal little darlings get pregnant.
I think I'd rather teach them about sex, and keep them ignorant of how to shoot people.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Rick Warren wants to keep all information related to sex away from students, and will then be surprised (and Horrified! Yes, Horrified!) when the hormonal little darlings get pregnant.
I think I'd rather teach them about sex, and keep them ignorant of how to shoot people.
Evidence please? It's my understanding that the objection to students being taught about sex from more conservative circles is that it is taught with an agenda in secular schools (promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable). So the aim for conservatives is for the teaching to occur within the church, so I would expect to see it as a part of their children's work curriculum. The alternative possibility is to argue that it's the parents' responsibility - with the school's role having emerged because parents like to avoid accepting their responsibility in this area. IN EITHER CASE your statement is at best unsympathetic, and at worst, cheap prejudiced point scoring. Unless of course you can prove me wrong... ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Unless of course you can prove me wrong...
I'll consider proving you wrong when you show me how anything you wrote relates remotely to anything I wrote.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
If you're expecting a young earth creationist to make an appeal to facts or reason, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. YECs are short on both by definition.
Besides, the alleged shooter was a Christian. Even though the Presbyterians aren't generally fundamentalist retards, they would have at least given him the message that we are all created in the image of God and that murder is a grave sin.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
It's my understanding that the objection to students being taught about sex from more conservative circles is that it is taught with an agenda in secular schools (promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable).
I'm not sure where you got that understanding from, but it's backwards. The conservatives generally object to sex education that discusses the proper use of prophylactics and birth control at all. Their REASON for this seems to be that by discussing the use of condoms or the pill, educators are implicitly telling children that teenage sex is perfectly acceptable.
The conservatives try to counteract this by designing or forcing curricula that either don't discuss condom effectiveness and method of us at all, or that dramatically overstate and misrepresent the risks associated with condoms and birth control.
The agenda crap is ludicrous, but fundamentalists are ludicrous people and I could imagine them believing that there is a secret cabal of people that really want teenagers to have lots of sex.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
The agenda crap is ludicrous, but fundamentalists are ludicrous people and I could imagine them believing that there is a secret cabal of people that really want teenagers to have lots of sex.
There is - they are called teenagers.
(I am young enough to remember - just!)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
The agenda crap is ludicrous, but fundamentalists are ludicrous people and I could imagine them believing that there is a secret cabal of people that really want teenagers to have lots of sex.
There is - they are called teenagers.
(I am young enough to remember - just!)
They aren't actually secret ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
No, I get the sense listening to the paranoid fundamentalist flavor of Christianity that there are people that think there's a nefarious cabal of liberals, Marxists, Satanists, and/or Hollywood Jews (if they're kicking it old school) who are trying to subtly influence children to hate their parents, abandon the church, do drugs, have lots of risky gay teenage sex, and/or get knocked up so that abortion doctors can do what they love most and kill more unborn children.
It's quite bizarre to listen to, but when you believe that demons are real physical beings and not metaphors, I guess maybe it makes sense.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
abstinence is ... inconceivable
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Please tell me that was unintentional.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
@Ender's There is absolutely no evidence for your assertions. There is absolutely no evidence to show that teaching about sex education in schools encourages young people to have sex. There is evidence that school education will increase the chances that young people will use some form of contraception if their education came from school. There is evidence that teaching about sex education not chastity reduces the incidence of teen pregnancy and STI infection.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
The agenda crap is ludicrous, but fundamentalists are ludicrous people and I could imagine them believing that there is a secret cabal of people that really want teenagers to have lots of sex.
There is - they are called teenagers.
(I am young enough to remember - just!)
Soul Survivor (under-18's) and Momentum (Club 18-30 for GLEs) are on in August at the Bath and West showground. Condom sales in Shepton Mallet peak at this time.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
The agenda crap is ludicrous, but fundamentalists are ludicrous people and I could imagine them believing that there is a secret cabal of people that really want teenagers to have lots of sex.
There is - they are called teenagers.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@Ender's There is absolutely no evidence for your assertions. There is absolutely no evidence to show that teaching about sex education in schools encourages young people to have sex.
Wait, where did he say that?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
meh, I thought the dinosaurs died out because people filmed themselves having sex. But then, I am a Confused Person. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@Ender's There is absolutely no evidence for your assertions. There is absolutely no evidence to show that teaching about sex education in schools encourages young people to have sex.
Wait, where did he say that?
I put in italics the obvious part.
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
It's my understanding that the objection to students being taught about sex from more conservative circles is that it is taught with an agenda in secular schools (promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable).
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Making a statement supporting the topics title is crazy. Neither sex ed or teaching on evolution had anything to do with the insanity of last week.
One very warped person did the deed & planned the whole thing . And not even the
right to own & bear arms (2nd Amendmet US Constitution) had anything to do with it.
And there were many acts ofdd heroism, boyfriends who covered their girlfriends bodies saving their lives at expense of theiu
own, a babysitter who held her charge even after ir was apparent the child was dead.
tyhese are people to be talked about . Not idots like the shooter and theologians with
off the wall ideas.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
[Sex education] is taught with an agenda in secular schools (promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable).
Please quote me an example of a sex ed curriculum that says sexual promiscuity is fine and abstinence is unrealistic.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I don't think that ES was saying that such things actually exist, just that some Christians think they do.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
The agenda crap is ludicrous, but fundamentalists are ludicrous people and I could imagine them believing that there is a secret cabal of people that really want teenagers to have lots of sex.
There is - they are called teenagers.
(I am young enough to remember - just!)
They aren't actually secret
No, I get the sense listening to the paranoid fundamentalist flavor of Christianity that there are people that think there's a nefarious cabal of liberals, Marxists, Satanists, and/or Hollywood Jews (if they're kicking it old school) who are trying to subtly influence children to hate their parents, abandon the church, do drugs, have lots of risky gay teenage sex, and/or get knocked up so that abortion doctors can do what they love most and kill more unborn children.
It's quite bizarre to listen to, but when you believe that demons are real physical beings and not metaphors, I guess maybe it makes sense.
![[Biased]](wink.gif) ...you forgot the Illuminati, the Zionists, and the 'Scientific Establishment' there. Keep up, man! But yes, they're all in it together. It certainly is bizarre to listen to - I had years of it from my father - the oddest thing is, he was actually a really nice guy, personally. I don't know how he managed it, given his perspective of the world as a sort of arena for a grand unified conspiracy where practically everyone else was suspect.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
(promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable).
damn. I went to the wrong school. or I picked the wrong day to skip class. that would have been my favorite lesson ever.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
[Sex education] is taught with an agenda in secular schools (promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable).
Please quote me an example of a sex ed curriculum that says sexual promiscuity is fine and abstinence is unrealistic.
quote:
If TheSite could ban the word 'normal', we would. It's a ridiculous concept - especially when it comes to peoples' sex lives.
The thing is, when couples first get together they usually spend the first couple of months humping each others' brains out. So when it all cools down - and you start swapping orgasms for DVD box sets - it's natural to think "hang on, what's up? Why aren't we having as much sex? IS THIS NORMAL?"
How does sex change in a relationship?
In those gorgeous first few months of a relationship it's common for couples to spend A LOT of their time shagging each other senseless. Every time you meet, you end up horizontal and sans-clothes.
From here. That for me is a smoking gun: the statement first few months of a relationship implies to the average reader that waiting is not common and is therefore not to be expected. So it's really endorsing promiscuity, which is defined, historically, as sexual intercourse outside marriage. The site was linked to from a teachers' pack here. No, it's not evidence that the CURRICULUM endorses promiscuity - just that it's assumed to be the norm, and, it seems, the alternative not seriously discussed as a moral choice, rather than a personal preference.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I don't think that ES was saying that such things actually exist, just that some Christians think they do.
Then he should not have included
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Unless of course you can prove me wrong...
It sure makes it look like ES thinks such things exists.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
From here. That for me is a smoking gun: the statement first few months of a relationship implies to the average reader that waiting is not common and is therefore not to be expected. [...] No, it's not evidence that the CURRICULUM endorses promiscuity - just that it's assumed to be the norm, and, it seems, the alternative not seriously discussed as a moral choice, rather than a personal preference.
From the same site:
quote:
Keeping your virginity until your wedding night may not be the norm these days, but there are far more people taking a vow of chastity than you may have realised, and it's not always down to religious beliefs.
[ 29. July 2012, 00:00: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
...the statement first few months of a relationship implies to the average reader that waiting is not common and is therefore not to be expected. So it's really endorsing promiscuity, which is defined, historically, as sexual intercourse outside marriage.
Two things with this - first, I think this link provides pretty thin evidence for your claim that school curriculums endorse promiscuity. A lesson outline or scheme of work for a topic might well have links to a range of websites; that doesn't mean every single statement on that website is vetted and approved by the school or whoever produced the lesson plan.
Second, if you're using the word 'promiscuous' to mean 'sex outside of marriage' then your claim might actually be correct - I imagine most school curriculums will say it's okay to have sex without being married - but does anyone use the word 'promiscuous' that way any more? Doesn't it simply mean sleeping with several people in a short period of time?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm not sure if anyone has actually said that teaching evolution causes murder, but if anyone has, it is a truly gorgeous peach of an example of confusing correlation with causation.
Typically, tabloids do this, with their headlines, e.g., 'eating chocolate makes you live longer'. Someone has read a study which statistically links the two things, and then they have unwisely turned this correlation into causation. This of course, ignores the possible confounds, e.g. that affluent people eat more chocolate and also live longer.
I used to collect these examples, and they are fairly common, as they show a kind of pre-scientific grasp of correlation. If two things are adjacent, why, they cause each other!
Yeah, right. Rising global temperatures caused an increase in piracy.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
... that waiting is not common and is therefore not to be expected. So it's really endorsing promiscuity,
horseshit. I acknowledge that violent video games are common and to be expected. I sure as fuck don't endorse them. Just because I'm not in denial about them doesn't mean I think they're great.
you do know how to read for content, don't you? your attempts at "logic" imply you're still hooked on phonics.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Dunno if I can contribute much to the slippery slide from evolution to gun violence to sex curricula to the imminent demise of Christendom, but I would like to offer some pointers about safe internet computing.
Ender's Shadow offers evidence from a link to a "teachers' pack," whose url is this mess: quote:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&
source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFAQFjAA&url=http
%3A%2F%2Fwww.truetube.co.uk%2Fmedia%2F 23491
7%2F3.1%2520sex%2520and%2520promiscuity%2520-%
2520attitudes%2520to%2520sex.doc&ei=fG4UUMeUJq
_Z0QXNtYGIBgusg=AFQjCNGA8JBWLora5OD6uDZhyiOSnc
PIsw
So, here're the pointers.
First, inspect the url of links before you click on them.
Second, don't click on links you don't understand or don't like the looks of.
Third, don't download word processing documents from sources you don't know to be trustworthy.
Finally, the only sources you should trust are those people to whose house you can go to break their fingers should they send you an infected document.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
FWIW* I have met one of the guys who run TrueTube (which, buried in that monstrous URL, is the source of the .doc).
It's a popular site but it's not official or endorsed by the Government AFAIK, and it's also very keen on user-generated content, which may or may not include Ender's Shadow's .doc.
So the sum of Ender's Shadow's evidence for an agenda in state schools to promote promiscuity is a resource of unknown provenance from a non-endorsed site that in its related links section includes another site that actually says chastity is more common than you think.
* Which, to continue TSA's lesson on Internet safety, is not very much ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
(promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable).
damn. I went to the wrong school. or I picked the wrong day to skip class. that would have been my favorite lesson ever.
Just be grateful you didn't go to my kids' state school which describes STDs in full and frank detail, with pictures, and shows them a video of an eye-watering birth.
I worry that school sex-ed is destroying my chances of ever being a grandmother.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Whereas the evidence I quoted to refute Ender's claims was from the BMJ (British Medical Journal) and Naomi Starkman and Nicole Rajani. AIDS Patient Care and STDs. July 2002, 16(7): 313-318. doi:10.1089/108729102320231144. - basically peer reviewed articles I found by using Google Scholar.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@Ender's There is absolutely no evidence for your assertions. There is absolutely no evidence to show that teaching about sex education in schools encourages young people to have sex.
Wait, where did he say that?
I put in italics the obvious part.
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
It's my understanding that the objection to students being taught about sex from more conservative circles is that it is taught with an agenda in secular schools (promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, abstinence is unrealistic and inconceivable).
I still don't see where Ender's Shadow said what Curiosity Killed says he said. Unless you're admitting that 'sex ed' does in fact teach that promiscuous sex is fine, gay sex is fine, etc., and that this does in fact encourage young people to have sex.
He was responding to something Rick Warren said:
quote:
I had received this email from a dad: “Pastor Rick, my daughter told me her teacher said in class “There's nothing wrong with sex with multiple partners! Sex is a natural, inate drive, and any attempt to limit it to one, single partner is a manmade construct.” THAT is what I was commenting on. Unfortunately, you also incorrectly presumed the context.
Now, maybe Warren is lying and he did not receive such an email, or the father in question is lying about what his daughter said, or the daughter is lying or misunderstood what her teacher said. But unless you live in a different universe than I do, you'd know that teachers do not always stick to exactly what is written in the curriculum, so I find it believable that this may have happened.
But people seem to be putting a lot of words in Ender's Shadow's mouth (and Warren's). Given that ES is a conservative, I don't understand why we shouldn't listen to him when he tells us what the objection to sex ed in conservative circles frequently is. (Especially since I've discovered that listening to and acknowledging objections to sex ed while telling people what the curriculum is actually going to teach can get the community to start offering sex ed in schools where it's needed).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
No, he really said it, he said it again here, more clearly from his own fingers/lips:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Please quote me an example of a sex ed curriculum that says sexual promiscuity is fine and abstinence is unrealistic.
<snip>
From here. That for me is a smoking gun: the statement first few months of a relationship implies to the average reader that waiting is not common and is therefore not to be expected. So it's really endorsing promiscuity, which is defined, historically, as sexual intercourse outside marriage. The site was linked to from a teachers' pack here. No, it's not evidence that the CURRICULUM endorses promiscuity - just that it's assumed to be the norm, and, it seems, the alternative not seriously discussed as a moral choice, rather than a personal preference.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
No, he really said it, he said it again here, more clearly from his own fingers/lips:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Please quote me an example of a sex ed curriculum that says sexual promiscuity is fine and abstinence is unrealistic.
<snip>
From here. That for me is a smoking gun: the statement first few months of a relationship implies to the average reader that waiting is not common and is therefore not to be expected. So it's really endorsing promiscuity, which is defined, historically, as sexual intercourse outside marriage. The site was linked to from a teachers' pack here. No, it's not evidence that the CURRICULUM endorses promiscuity - just that it's assumed to be the norm, and, it seems, the alternative not seriously discussed as a moral choice, rather than a personal preference.
You put words in his mouth and accused him of objecting to students being taught any information about sex simply because they object to certain teachings about sex. Ricardus asked for an example of a curriculum that endorses promiscuity; he acknowledged that this wasn't the school curriculum but a site that students with questions are referred to. I know schools around here frequently refer students with further questions to scarleteen.
I don't consider myself particularly conservative and yet I don't want my kid being taught some of the stuff they teach kids about sex (and rape) these days.
What do you think current sex ed programs are teaching? What do you think they should teach?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
If you look what I actually said - I said that his assertions were inaccurate. I didn't say he agreed with them, I didn't make any judgement whether as to whether he believed in them or not. I just pointed out that they were inaccurate. And this is a tangent on a thread about the teaching evolution.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
<tangent>I have been teaching sex ed to teenagers, 14 - 16 year olds, many of whom are already sexually active. The research shows that the more information they have, the more likely they are to delay a sexual relationship and to have a safe sexual relationship when they do. Otherwise they get their information from their friends, the media, films, books, magazines, 50 Shades of Grey and all.
These kids have so much misinformation you end up having to tell them far more to be counteract the garbage they're being fed from everywhere else.
We too showed them large and horrific pictures of STIs and told them horror stories of contraceptive failure. We told them that if they started having a sexual relationship they risked pregnancy or STIs or being put on the sex offenders register. They needed to be aware of what they were doing and what the risks were. And they did say we were trying to put them off, and we said we were trying to make them realise what the risks were.
Research shows that keeping kids ignorant leaves them with a far greater chance of getting pregnant or STIs. I'm with educating them.</tangent>
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I don't consider myself particularly conservative and yet I don't want my kid being taught some of the stuff they teach kids about sex (and rape) these days.
What do you think current sex ed programs are teaching? What do you think they should teach?
After the last conservative panic attack in my state I went online and read the actual state law and curriculum for myself rather than rely on someone else for what it says - something every parent should do. I had no problem with the actual law and curriculum as it was written. The fact is with sex teen pregnancy has gone down since contraceptive use has been taught. There was a day when STD's simply meant a visit to the doc and some antibiotics. These days it leads to an incurable virus and a lifetime of taking medications with horrendous side effects.Part of the teaching in my state has been a section on HIV/AIDS, including having a person who is on the meds giving a description of said side effects. As was stated in the link ES included, many students are abstaining from sex despite, so imnsho sex ed is preventing pregnancy and giving instruction on the risks involved in sex and is not giving license to any sexual behaviors. I've got no problem with it. As a parent I'd be having my own discussion with my kids concerning sex - something my parents and the parents of most of my friends did not do - I've got no problem with our sex ed curriculum. My problem would be with any teacher going outside of that and if you've got good communication with your kids that would be revealed in parent/child discussions. As in most things, the most important aspect is the parent/child communication outside of the classroom.
Crosspost with CK
[ 30. July 2012, 19:31: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
If you look what I actually said - I said that his assertions were inaccurate.
I did look at what you said. You claimed that he asserted things that he didn't say, and that those assertions were inaccurate.
But, yes, now that you've demolished your strawman, let's go back to talking about the teaching of evolution.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Just be grateful you didn't go to my kids' state school which describes STDs in full and frank detail, with pictures, and shows them a video of an eye-watering birth.
I worry that school sex-ed is destroying my chances of ever being a grandmother.
I doubt that a few yukky videos would put them off sex - fear not!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Just be grateful you didn't go to my kids' state school which describes STDs in full and frank detail, with pictures, and shows them a video of an eye-watering birth.
I worry that school sex-ed is destroying my chances of ever being a grandmother.
I understand that during WW2 (and perhaps later), soldiers were shown graphic pictures of what STDs could do to their most precious parts. So far as I can tell, they went on doing what they were doing (whether with women, men, children, sheep or large dogs) and the birth rate didn't decrease.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Just be grateful you didn't go to my kids' state school which describes STDs in full and frank detail, with pictures, and shows them a video of an eye-watering birth.
I worry that school sex-ed is destroying my chances of ever being a grandmother.
I understand that during WW2 (and perhaps later), soldiers were shown graphic pictures of what STDs could do to their most precious parts. So far as I can tell, they went on doing what they were doing (whether with women, men, children, sheep or large dogs) and the birth rate didn't decrease.
John
My Dad did National Service in the RAF in the late 1950s. They were evidently still taking the 'let's gross them out' route then - I remember him once telling me about the graphic photos they were shown. I have to say, I got the impression that they had made a fairly deep impact on him, at least. He recounted the experience in the manner of one remembering something they would like to be able to forget.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks for the reassurance!! The offspring are still in their teens, so I don't want to be a grandmother quite yet, but it's good to be reassured that the yuk! factor of school sex-ed ought to have worn off by the time I'm ready for grannyhood!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
I believe it was on public TV I saw an old B&W film shot for showing to soldiers. The time was somewhere between WWII and Korea, going by the vocabulary and haircuts. I can't go by the clothes, since the "stars" were either medical types in white lab coats, or mostly naked soldiers who'd come in for treatment after visiting ladies of negotiable virtue.
The guys came in & the lab coats had them straddle these weird stainless steel tables, where they were told to scrub their genitals, lower abs and inner thighs with some really grim soap. This attractive tableau was occasionally interrupted by pictures of nightmare sores and little cartoons of spirochetes corckscrewing their jolly way into military penises. Penii. Whatever.
The thing was written from a POV like "Of COURSE any real man will immediately rollick on out of the barracks to dip his wick into anything with a vagina or reasonable facsimilie thereof!"
That's what aggravates us, me & conservatives I know, when we find school curriculae or textbooks, for anything from sex ed to evolutionary theory, written so the stuff reads from that sort of POV... "Of course anyone of intelligence knows that any young person will certainly rollick on out of the school and immediately find someone against which to polish his/her genitals!"... "Of course anyone with any brains doesn't mind the teaching of a couple of un-provable evolutionary theories as if they are rock-solid provable facts... not theories any more! And the concept of evolution explains origins and the value of Man and presumes direct line of descent from pond scum! Golly, doesn't Darwin just fulfill every inner need!"
I didn't say anyone is publishing anything that actually says that stuff. I'm saying those things sometimes read that way, feel that way, especially when a teacher with bones to pick and fish to fry gets ahold of the stuff.
All that, to say this: If people have it pounded into their heads that they own no worth beyond what they can grow in themselves -- no "in God's image", no "knit me together in my mother's womb" -- if humans have no more and no less and no different intrinsic value than cats or cows -- Why not shoot them, if it suits you, if you figure your cause is just?
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I think your post says a lot more about your own prejudices and paranoia than about the teaching of either sex education or science.
Evolution says nothing about the origin or worth of life. The accusation of scientific nihilism is an ancient canard and no more true now than it ever was. Evolution provides a good model for the historical record that we have, and has implications that have been tested and proven. It's as proven as a scientific theory that models past events can be. Details will change, but the evidence is such that overthrowing the core principles would require demolishing not just biology but geology, physics and chemistry as well. If you have an alternative hypothesis beyond Goddidit, I'd love to hear it. Apart from anything else, the "God made it look that way" makes God out to be a liar and a deceiver, and that's not the God that I know.
If sex education carries the implication you say it does, why does it result in young people delaying intercourse and a reduced number of teenage pregnancies?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
That's what aggravates us, me & conservatives I know, <snip>
"Of course anyone with any brains doesn't mind the teaching of a couple of un-provable evolutionary theories as if they are rock-solid provable facts... not theories any more! "
Do you object the teaching of the theory of gravity as an explanation of things we observe in nature, on the grounds that it is a only theory ?
Are you aware that it is not logically possible to prove a scientific hypothesis - even the ones underlying technology allowing you to read this message ? Do you understand why ?
Also,what do you define as a fact - you show me a fact and I will show you a socially constructed interpretation.
[ 18. August 2012, 07:57: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
abstinence is ... inconceivable
Please tell me that was unintentional.
Nice one! - we need the occasional light relief (and cooling off) down here - thanks! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do you object the teaching of the theory of gravity as an explanation of things we observe in nature, on the grounds that it is a only theory ?
I understand that some school districts are going to start teaching the alternative, "Intelligent Falling."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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