Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
And you know what? This guy is going to get a fair trial and there is a system in place for his protection.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
You're delusional.
quote:I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
quote:Dad's argument to the child seems to be you have 5 minutes before any brain damage occurs. Unfortunately, said daughter stated he often became distracted and she'd worry he's lose track of time completely. That's part of the torture. I say he's got some major brain damage himself.
Originally posted by Think²:
I wonder if he will argue reasonable chastisement based on the same arguments the US government has used to say it is neither torture nor dangerous.
Sounds like a Shipman in the making.
quote:According to the article, the kid is his stepdaughter. He may not see her as his child at all.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
My own daughter plays next to me as I write this, and I look at her and wonder how anyone cannot see it as their duty to protect their own children from harm, much less how anyone could torture their own children.
quote:But the 5 year old is his daughter and matter of factly stated she's been told she's not old enough yet for this punishment. I don't think he sees kids as human.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:According to the article, the kid is his stepdaughter. He may not see her as his child at all.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
My own daughter plays next to me as I write this, and I look at her and wonder how anyone cannot see it as their duty to protect their own children from harm, much less how anyone could torture their own children.
quote:If he's going to cite 'reasonable chastisement' then I'm sure that's applicable to your children, whether adopted, step- or biological. No wonder the fourth commandment is in such disrepute.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:But the 5 year old is his daughter and matter of factly stated she's been told she's not old enough yet for this punishment. I don't think he sees kids as human.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:According to the article, the kid is his stepdaughter. He may not see her as his child at all.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
My own daughter plays next to me as I write this, and I look at her and wonder how anyone cannot see it as their duty to protect their own children from harm, much less how anyone could torture their own children.
quote:Maturity is not the issue. Sounds very much the sociopath, from the information so far.
Originally posted by PeteC:
Which is totally fucked. A step-child or biological child - any child, in fact, living in your home - has every right to expect a standard of care from the adults in charge of his home. So many actually don't get it.
But this does not surprise me. Age does not imply adulthood.
quote:Not quite, do you really think we haven't made progress in 500 years.
Originally posted by rolyn:
I take it "Water-boarding" is a modern term for the old Ducking-stool technique used on those accused of Witchcraft in olden days ?
Why the goodness fuck is someone doing this to a minor in the 21st Century ?
I don't go with all the sociopath stuff . It's just a simple case of an evil basstard who's been caught doing an evil basstard thing.
It's well past high-time to dispense with all the psycho-babble and bang these morons up . End of.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:I do hope you're being sarcastic. Especially when this is done to a child.
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Broadly AIUI it simulates* the effects of drowning without (in theory) any actual drowning and therefore it isn't torture and is quite moral actually.
quote:Thought so, but wanted to be sure.
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It was meant to be.
quote:Quite right too, switching from sarcasm to a (hopefully) factual statement (the mechanism) to sarcasm mid sentence was pretty stupid of me.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:Thought so, but wanted to be sure.
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
It was meant to be.
quote:The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
Originally posted by Tortuf
Punishments like this "waterboarding" and whatever quaint name can be given to suffocation are designed to psychologically torture the child. Maybe it makes the child think about their behavior. More probably it messes with that child's whole life.
quote:That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
quote:It's also no way to equip a child to be able to live life as a successful and happy adult.
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
quote:This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
quote:That is my thinking when I've had a few minutes to get over the initial rage over what the man has done and think rationally and civilly. I also made that statement knowing it would never happen because we do protect child rapists, torturers and murderers. I think it's only natural to have the thoughts of an "eye for an eye" punishment. I do when it involves children or other helpless individuals. After all, wasn't that the law of the OT given by God? But we are under a new covenant. Justice will be served by this man being stripped of his medical license and never seeing the light of day outside of prison again. He'll also likely be held in solitary and that is both punishment and opportunity for repentance.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
Either we wish to confront and punish criminals in a controlled and legal fashion; or, we are one step away from the vigilante mob, where we license out our fantasies of revenge and retribution against the object of our loathing to other malefactors whom we loathe less.
We cannot remain civilized while we wish extra-judicial torture and rape upon criminals we fear and abhor.
quote:In point of fact, we do not do this in the United States. It's common knowledge that those incarcerated for sex-crimes offences suffer disproportionately from predation by everyone else, higher in the prisoner hierarchy. Thy frequently are segregated for their protection.
I also made that statement knowing it would never happen because we do protect child rapists, torturers and murderers.
quote:But the judgement was aimed at 2 of us who posted out of our initial rage at what was done to this child and you had to have known it was just that.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Niteowl2, thank you for your considered reply; I appreciate it. However:
quote:In point of fact, we do not do this in the United States. It's common knowledge that those incarcerated for sex-crimes offences suffer disproportionately from predation by everyone else, higher in the prisoner hierarchy. Thy frequently are segregated for their protection.
I also made that statement knowing it would never happen because we do protect child rapists, torturers and murderers.
Solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time is torture.
The eye-for-an-eye biblical injunction is an injunction of mercy not severity. It was meant to stop retributive violence against the offender and the offender's family disproportionate to the original crime.
So, no, mine was not a 'nice judgmental post,' but one meant to inveigh against a sanctioned savagery built in to the incarceration industry, at least in the United States.
quote:The kind of punishment I had in mind is not allowing your kid to go to his friend's house the next day as punishment for getting home from his friend's an hour later than he was supposed to. I don't think it's possible to raise a child without ever punishing him.
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
quote:That works for me.
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:The kind of punishment I had in mind is not allowing your kid to go to his friend's house the next day as punishment for getting home from his friend's an hour later than he was supposed to. I don't think it's possible to raise a child without ever punishing him.
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:That depends on what you mean by effective. There are ways of avoiding punishment which do not necessarily involve total compliance. Punishment can encourage people to become devious rather than moral. Of course, if all the punisher wants is a quite life, than that is effective, but it's no way to capture hearts and minds.
Originally posted by Moo:
The most effective punishments are unpleasant enough that the child wants to avoid them, but not so overwhelming that he cannot think clearly about how to avoid them.
Moo
quote:Boo hoo.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
[We] posted out of our initial rage at what was done to this child and you had to have known it was just that.
quote:No, but you are quite judgmental. I don't give a shit - my sympathies lie with the child, not the adult. Especially because he was the parent who was supposed to nurture and protect her. And the next time some adult tortures, rapes or murders a child I'll have that same moment of rage, realizing our justice system will do it's job of protecting their right to a fair trial and then protection while they are in jail. Is it a perfect justice system? No. It'll take a lot of tax money and a leveling of the access to quality representation for everyone to achieve that and unfortunately I don't see that happening. I'll then move on to rational feelings toward the perpetrator and hoping he gets justice in every sense of the word and that his child never has to see him again.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:Boo hoo.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
[We] posted out of our initial rage at what was done to this child and you had to have known it was just that.
You want to endorse extra-judicial punishment in one post and then chide me for taking you at your word in another?
No, I am not a mind reader.
quote:I was simply stating what I understood to be the case: that child abusers and rapists do tend to suffer more in prison than the other inmates. I personally never qualified the statement with a moral judgement.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
Either we wish to confront and punish criminals in a controlled and legal fashion; or, we are one step away from the vigilante mob, where we license out our fantasies of revenge and retribution against the object of our loathing to other malefactors whom we loathe less.
We cannot remain civilized while we wish extra-judicial torture and rape upon criminals we fear and abhor.
quote:They're kept in segregation and have a protected status. They're not in with the general population or you'd not have the amount of child abusers who are released from prison. Those instances where something occurs are usually because dirty guards set something up. They need to go after them and make the punishment stiff.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:I was simply stating what I understood to be the case: that child abusers and rapists do tend to suffer more in prison than the other inmates. I personally never qualified the statement with a moral judgement.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:This kind of vicious thinking will not do.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:I've heard that child abusers get much worse in prison.
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
This man is one sick, evil fuck and is the definition of sociopath. Perhaps one of his jail mates will introduce him to the experience of water boarding.
Either we wish to confront and punish criminals in a controlled and legal fashion; or, we are one step away from the vigilante mob, where we license out our fantasies of revenge and retribution against the object of our loathing to other malefactors whom we loathe less.
We cannot remain civilized while we wish extra-judicial torture and rape upon criminals we fear and abhor.
But it makes logical sense, doesn't it? You throw the most despicable subjects of humanity it with a bunch of violent criminals who don't share your understanding of justice (but who still have their own moral code) and what else do you expect to happen?
Everyone in the system knows that this happens. If the powers that be wanted to protect these guys, then they could.
quote:Makes a delicious TICTH kind of thread, doesn't it? Yum, yum. Select out them who have nothing in common with us. Then we can wring our hands and beat our breasts over those people and their behavior who aren't at all like us.
the most despicable subjects of humanity
quote:Quite right. Violent criminals are a kind unto themselves, sui generis. We could never be their parents, or brothers, or children.
a bunch of violent criminals who don't share your understanding of justice
quote:Yup. I'm all right, Jack; too bad about those publicans.
If the powers that be wanted to protect these guys, then they could.
quote:Oh shove your cherry picking quotes to suit your own agenda and your sanctimonious self righteousness and judgmentalism SA.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Pesky little tangent this is. Especially when we really ought to get on with breathing heavily and fretting about...the children!quote:Makes a delicious TICTH kind of thread, doesn't it? Yum, yum. Select out them who have nothing in common with us. Then we can wring our hands and beat our breasts over those people and their behavior who aren't at all like us.
the most despicable subjects of humanityquote:Quite right. Violent criminals are a kind unto themselves, sui generis. We could never be their parents, or brothers, or children.
a bunch of violent criminals who don't share your understanding of justicequote:Yup. I'm all right, Jack; too bad about those publicans.
If the powers that be wanted to protect these guys, then they could.
quote:He's got to make himself look good. A fail from my perspective. I wonder how he feels about the little girls as he's not mentioned them once.
Originally posted by mdijon:
TSA, to my eyes you do seem to be reading quite a lot into not very many words.
quote:If you're referring to my last post on TSA you could be right - and if proven wrong I'd be right there with an apology. But he hasn't acknowledged once in this thread the evil that was done to an 11 year old girl and the damage done to a 5 year old in seeing this and now thinking it's normal punishment for an older child. All this from a trusted parent figure who also has specialty medical license for pediatrics - again a position of trust. Instead he's spent every post, going to great lengths in the last one, condemning quite a few persons in this thread and especially me because we've expressed our rage over what this man did. Yes, I do believe the man deserves punishment - i.e. prison, not the crap he's laid on me. I do hold the prison employees responsible for keeping ALL prisoners safe as there is a system in place to do that. Those who commit crimes need to be prepared to face the consequences as we all do for our behavior. I've had one speeding ticket I've faced the music for and a few tremendously stupid words and actions that cost me quite a bit personally - and I deserved it. I'm forever grateful for God's grace and try in that same grace to forgive others, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to open the doors from prisons for violent offenders. There's a lot wrong with the prison system and we need to work to change it - in the mean time they exist for a reason and everyone who commits a crime knows what they may face. It's one reason more people don't rob, rape, murder, etc. etc.
Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm not sure how to read that. I know this is hell, and this topic generates hear, but I think you go too far.
quote:No, that is rubbish. Prisons exist to punish. Their existence may prevent some from thieving and such, but rape, child abuse and the like do not work that way.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
in the mean time they exist for a reason and everyone who commits a crime knows what they may face. It's one reason more people don't rob, rape, murder, etc. etc.
quote:They are also prophylaxis. Someone in prison has no access to children to abuse.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Prisons exist to punish. Their existence may prevent some from thieving and such, but rape, child abuse and the like do not work that way.
quote:Until some hardliners got into office here prisons were also a place of rehabilitation, offering counseling, job training, education - both high school and university - and other services essential to being able to function successfully in society upon release. Sadly, prison sentences have been extended for anyone who commits 3 felonies, whether those felonies are violent crimes or not and university education and a lot of the job training have been eliminated. Fortunately, substance abuse and other counseling have been continued. But as a result of the 3 strikes law and extended sentencing guidelines we now have overcrowding conditions. And I do insist that violent offenders need a period, generally a long one, of separation from society and at the moment that is also the purpose of prison. I do agree with you that child abuse perpetrators generally do not seem to be capable of reform for whatever reason.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:No, that is rubbish. Prisons exist to punish. Their existence may prevent some from thieving and such, but rape, child abuse and the like do not work that way.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
in the mean time they exist for a reason and everyone who commits a crime knows what they may face. It's one reason more people don't rob, rape, murder, etc. etc.
Not saying I do not think such perpetrators should not be locked away, indeed, I think they should never see freedom again. But because I do not think they can truly be changed and I am not willing to risk anyone else' welfare.
An initial response of rage is natural. It is not what one initially feels, but what one ultimately does, that is important.
quote:It doesn't puzzle me at all. Women who will allow their children to be abused by a man they like having sex with are as common as abusive men. It's easy for them to pretend to be domestic abuse victims when it suits them - because while people quickly and easily lable a violent man 'evil', we suppose that for a woman to be 'evil' she must have really been abused by a man.
What I find puzzling and frightening is that his wife apparently went along with it. I wonder if he ever tried to waterboard her?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
And you know what? This guy is going to get a fair trial and there is a system in place for his protection.
quote:With all the money he's made with his books and practice I'm sure he'll be able to afford a good lawyer. It has it's fault, but our justice system is still one of the best.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
And you know what? This guy is going to get a fair trial and there is a system in place for his protection.
You're delusional.
quote:No, our justice system is not one of the best. It is profoundly broken, but the only people who seem to know it's broken don't have the power to do anything about it.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
It has it's fault, but our justice system is still one of the best.
There is a system in place to protect child abusers. What matters is the prison personnel adhering to it.
quote:How very brave of you.
I am not willing to open the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes or murders a child because of faults in the system - and I don't apologize for that. Especially those in places of trust and authority for the children they hurt.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:No, our justice system is not one of the best. It is profoundly broken, but the only people who seem to know it's broken don't have the power to do anything about it.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
It has it's fault, but our justice system is still one of the best.
There is a system in place to protect child abusers. What matters is the prison personnel adhering to it.
quote:
I am not willing to open the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes or murders a child because of faults in the system - and I don't apologize for that. Especially those in places of trust and authority for the children they hurt.
quote:I'm glad you're willing to let them skip jail and you can have them live next door to you. I especially want the child abusers away from the kids. I want them in jail for an appropriate term with counseling, job training and whatever else they need to make their next appearance in society successful.
Originally posted by saysay:
How very brave of you.
I know the world is an imperfect place and some assholes do abuse children, but have you ever actually heard of someone who defended their actions as being right?
quote:You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
Beats the snot out of a good many systems where the defendent is denied the right to challenge witnesses against them, or where the verdict has been decided by the gov't prior to the trial. It has it's faults, but a person is entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers or by a judge, the right to legal counsel, the right to access to all evidence against him as well as any exculpatory evidence, the right to challenge any witnesses in court and the right to testify or not and the right to appeal any judgement. Have there been wrong verdicts?
quote:The numbers freed in recent years? We are locking up more people than ever; we are locking people up because they told a cop their name was Ticia rather than Leticia. What the hell new technologies are giving a chance to these people? Why would you even think that?
Yes, but considering the numbers freed in recent years new technologies are giving a chance to them. The problems likes with idiot humans - corrupt police or prosecutors, prejudiced jurors or where those with money for a team of high paid lawyers can do a better job than a poor overworked public defender. Problems? Yes? Broken? No, it's still working and I'll take it over many others.
quote:Who said anything about opening the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes, or murders a child? Who is asking you to apologize? You do realize that given that you have already sentenced this man for the rest of his life without giving him the benefit of a trial you are being a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution don't you?
I am not willing to open the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes or murders a child because of faults in the system - and I don't apologize for that. Especially those in places of trust and authority for the children they hurt.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
How very brave of you.
I know the world is an imperfect place and some assholes do abuse children, but have you ever actually heard of someone who defended their actions as being right?
quote:Holy hell. Who said anything about letting a person who has in fact been convicted of a crime (which, again, would require people to actually allow them to have a trial in the first place, which people are not currently doing) to skip jail? They aren't getting counseling, job training, or anything else they need to make their next appearance in society successful. They are simply learning how to become better criminals, which is a good thing because no one else anywhere in society will give them a chance to be something else.
I'm glad you're willing to let them skip jail and you can have them live next door to you. I especially want the child abusers away from the kids. I want them in jail for an appropriate term with counseling, job training and whatever else they need to make their next appearance in society successful.
quote:Huh. Maybe in the end you really are just stupid.
And again, the focus of this thread is 2 children who where harmed by the asshole who was supposed to be their protector. There is an 11 year old girl who was tortured and a 5 year old who saw it and now thinks torture is natural. Doesn't that disturb you?
quote:You wanna back that up with some numbers big boy?
Originally posted by saysay:
You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
quote:Your post is just about 100% bullshit. My state has the worst budget crisis of any of the 50 states, but we are still providing drug counseling, education programs, mental health counseling and a prison to employment program despite budget cuts. State of California Prison Programs I've seen parole board recommendations and reports listing each of the programs these prisoners have completed. And we are presently still under Federal watch because of problems with medical services in the past and at present the prisoners may not be getting the absolute best care, but neither are approximately 50+ million Americans without health coverage - that's a huge problem for a huge swath of citizenry, not just prisoners. But the stats on the coverage they are receiving now, even with budget cuts is far improved over several years ago.
Originally posted by saysay:
You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
The numbers freed in recent years? We are locking up more people than ever; we are locking people up because they told a cop their name was Ticia rather than Leticia. What the hell new technologies are giving a chance to these people? Why would you even think that?
(snip)
Who said anything about opening the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes, or murders a child? Who is asking you to apologize? You do realize that given that you have already sentenced this man for the rest of his life without giving him the benefit of a trial you are being a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution don't you?
I know the world is an imperfect place and some assholes do abuse children, but have you ever actually heard of someone who defended their actions as being right?
(snip)
Holy hell. Who said anything about letting a person who has in fact been convicted of a crime (which, again, would require people to actually allow them to have a trial in the first place, which people are not currently doing) to skip jail? They aren't getting counseling, job training, or anything else they need to make their next appearance in society successful. They are simply learning how to become better criminals, which is a good thing because no one else anywhere in society will give them a chance to be something else.
(Snip)
Huh. Maybe in the end you really are just stupid.
quote:As a matter of fact, I have been near a criminal courtroom lately.
Originally posted by Tortuf:
You wanna back that up with some numbers big boy?
Have you been around a criminal courtroom anytime recently?
Even here in the sovereign south a good many of the cops are brown, as are the prosecutors and judges. From my experience, they don't give a flying fuck what color you are, just what you did.
Prove your contention and I will pay attention to you. Back it up with the same kind of screed you have been using in this thread and I will know yet another poster to skip over.
quote:Fine. I will do your googling for you. Numbers.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Yup, they are stories. Selected examples. Opinion pieces, features, campaigning journalism. Some deal with individual cases, others with topics.
But no numbers. Hard cases, like those you quote, make for lousy law. Let's see some numbers, like Tortuf asked for.
quote:Apparently you are in California. This man is in Delaware. I can tell you right now he's not going to get a fair trial, because I have personal experience with the justice system in Delaware. Yes, people are working on the problem and things are probably improving. But right now everyone in Delaware is doing this crazy-ass thing where they're deciding that what someone actually said could not possibly be what they meant; what they really meant was something else. The state is acting like a crazy abusive parent in relation to the people in it.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
So tell me, what are your solutions? What do you suggest? I've given some of my suggestions throughout this thread. I've seen none from you.
quote:I've never said this before to anyone but Fuck You. Thus far you've slung insults and opinions with no hard facts posted to support your "stupid ass opinions". You're unable to come up with suggestions or solid facts so you resort to insults. The argument of the ignorant.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:Apparently you are in California. This man is in Delaware. I can tell you right now he's not going to get a fair trial, because I have personal experience with the justice system in Delaware. Yes, people are working on the problem and things are probably improving. But right now everyone in Delaware is doing this crazy-ass thing where they're deciding that what someone actually said could not possibly be what they meant; what they really meant was something else. The state is acting like a crazy abusive parent in relation to the people in it.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
So tell me, what are your solutions? What do you suggest? I've given some of my suggestions throughout this thread. I've seen none from you.
Right now I'd suggest you keep your stupid-ass opinions and outrage about this man and his actions and his sentence out of my fucking state while we decide what we think is fair and what we're going to do about it. Because otherwise I don't know what you want to discuss, other than your moral superiority for feeling disgust and outrage over this man's actions.
quote:How is it that whether we're discussing mental health issues or child abuse, you work your way round to this issue?
Originally posted by saysay:
I can tell you right now he's not going to get a fair trial, because I have personal experience with the justice system in Delaware.
quote:Because right now I am incredibly angry. I am incredibly angry at middle class women in the US because on the whole (there are certainly many exceptions which probably include most shipmates) they are acting like spoiled brats and they won't stop and start acting differently, and they all seem to do this thing where they change what you actually said to what they think you meant and claim that you actually said it.
Originally posted by mdijon:
How is it that whether we're discussing mental health issues or child abuse, you work your way round to this issue?
quote:This may well answer my question about why you end up discussing the same issue on quite diverse threads. Is it really doing any good?
Originally posted by saysay:
Because right now I am incredibly angry. I am incredibly angry at middle class women in the US because on the whole (there are certainly many exceptions....
quote:But what was the thread started about? Was it just a rant? (in which case, can't people at least make an attempt to be funny?) Or what?
Originally posted by mdijon:
It is always going to be difficult to deal with that in a hell thread which starts about something else, even if you see a link.
quote:This is a joke?
Originally posted by saysay:
(in which case, can't people at least make an attempt to be funny?) Or what?
quote:Your evidence is your personal experience and we can't assess it. You are asking me to take a fairly big leap of faith in changing my mind about anything substantial based on that. And stating that you are generally angry at middle-class women (albeit with exceptions) isn't helping me to do that.
Originally posted by saysay:
People don't seem to change their minds based on logic or reason or evidence or anything other than their whims.
quote:Nope, we are all entitled to the basic items mentioned by the Constitution of the U.S.: the right to an attorney, the right a trial by a jury of our peers, the right against self incrimination, the right to cross examine our accusers, the right to review evidence against us, basic civil rights with respect to race and, as California found out, the rights to certain standards of housing and medical care, including mental health. There are other things states can scrimp on, but they must meet certain standards ones listed above or run afoul of the Feds. California's prison system has been under the jurisdiction of the Federal courts for violating those rights. I posted California's programs to show that even as cash strapped (what cash?) as our state is, we provide job training, education as well as the basics are being provided. As I've said all along, if those conditions aren't being met, then it is up to citizens to ensure the Feds know about it. For the purposes of this thread it's irrelevant. I started the thread in a state of rage over the absolute horror of a father, - a pediatrician no less - torturing his 11 year old daughter. His wife has confirmed witnessing it and doing nothing. His 5 year old daughter has stated she saw it happening and that it was punishment, but the she (the 5 year old) was too young for the same thing to happen to her. I am still p.o.'d that the father had such indifference to the terror and damage done to both daughters and the fact that he may have profited from it. For the purposes of this thread, I don't care about the prison system even though I've attempted a reasoned discussion with TSA and you on the side issue, until your last response to me got that anger directed at you. The prison system is not what my rant was about. Start one of your own on the prison system. My concern was and continues to be the victims in this case. You have your issues with American middle class women, one of my major hot button issues is the abuse of children who cannot protect themselves and that will always be my concern in this thread. For the purposes of THIS thread and this thread only my concern will be for the victims and not the perpetrator or the prison system.
Originally posted by saysay:
Nightowl is making claims about the court and prison system in Delaware and what is going to happen to a person who is in it. While she might know something about the court and prison system in California, she does not know anything about the court and prison system in Delaware and she should stop insisting that certain things are true simply because she wants them to be true. They aren't, and we have to acknowledge the problem before we can deal with it, and she is influencing other people who are insisting that things that are not actually true are true.
quote:As do you. You have your say, and she has hers. So who is not "allowing" you? Has a Hell host come along along and said, "that opinion is not allowed"? You are just convinced that your opinion trumps hers. And how dare she or anyone else say otherwise?
Also, the thread is about a pediatrician in Delaware. Again I seem to find myself in a situation in which neither empirical nor personal/anecdotal evidence is allowed because people just know certain things are true.
quote:You do have a problem. That problem being that I fucking hate people who post eight sodding links in one sentence. Do it again and I will seriously consider editing your post to save myself the tedium of checking them all.
Originally posted by saysay:
And I'm telling you we have a problem.
quote:The one where you said
Originally posted by saysay:
Which reckless allegation was that?
quote:
People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
quote:Yes. We noticed. You keep telling us. Some skirt done you wrong and it's all you can think or talk about. It's tedious, and sooner or later you're really going to embarrass yourself. Go to Home Depot, buy a ladder, and get over it. OliviaG
Originally posted by saysay:
Because right now I am incredibly angry. I am incredibly angry at middle class women ....
quote:You know, if you're going to change your name you should really stop signing off with your old one. Kinda defeats the point...
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
OliviaG
quote:It's because I'm a stupid middle class woman.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:You know, if you're going to change your name you should really stop signing off with your old one. Kinda defeats the point...
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
OliviaG
quote:My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not. I may never be able to convince anyone else, but whatever.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
saysay: You are just convinced that your opinion trumps hers. And how dare she or anyone else say otherwise?
quote:I have learned that if people don't act like they learned the lessons they should have learned on the playground, it probably means that they are (or at least grew up) middle class.
Besides, how are you so sure Niteowl is "middle class"? What the hell is a "middle class woman" besides being someone that you have put into your "refuse like or regard" box (with a few grudging exceptions)?
quote:Why are people always convinced that when I talk about class I'm talking about money? I'm sure your experience and firsthand knowledge have suffered because you haven't lived a "middle class" existence. Everybody suffers. Not everybody thinks you have to. But in the end, while you may be able to postpone it, you have to.
I don't live in poverty, but by most standards outside of my education (BA) I live somewhere in between working class and lower class standards. And I have most of my working life because of certain disabilities that finally derailed my working life altogether. My experience and firsthand knowledge have likely suffered because I have not lived a "middle class" existence.
quote:I'm not whining. I'm telling her she's wrong.
So I listen to her opinions and don't whine if they disagree with mine.
quote:And also with you.
So you may take your prejudices and shove them, shipmate.
quote:Because that's what they did. It's the broken windows theory, but they implemented it all wrong and wound up telling people they had to have certain things that they had to buy in order to comply with the law. You can't just go hunting, you have to buy a really really expensive permit to go hunting. You can't just grow your own food, you have to buy it because NIMBY(don't even get me started on Montasano). They won't let us do the things we need to do to take care of ourselves; they won't let us give our kids limits and enforce consequences when they break them, and then they wonder why our prisons are overflowing. The goddamned federal government told me what I had to do and what I couldn't do in my fucking classroom and my fucking house under the threat of federal punishment for violating those rules. They would not allow communities to work out the things that worked for them; they kept insisting that we shared a culture and that what worked for them was going to work for us.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:The one where you said
Originally posted by saysay:
Which reckless allegation was that?quote:
People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
quote:While I'll not deny the justice systems in many countries do contain imbalance, it is not the whole of the issue. Even if justice truly were blind, there would be more black and brown people locked away. The larger issues are segregation and poverty. Both of those contribute to a higher crime rate regardless of the colour of skin. Balance for those and you'll find we are all, equally, bastards and angels.
You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not.
quote:What lessons are they then?
I have learned that if people don't act like they learned the lessons they should have learned on the playground, it probably means that they are (or at least grew up) middle class.
quote:Sorry, you're going to have to back that up with something more than your own demented ramblings or a bunch of articles about how many people get sent to jail before you'll get any credibility back.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:Because that's what they did.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:The one where you said
Originally posted by saysay:
Which reckless allegation was that?quote:
People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
quote:Because you post stuff like:
Why are people always convinced that when I talk about class I'm talking about money?
quote:So is it about money or not?
It's the broken windows theory, but they implemented it all wrong and wound up telling people they had to have certain things that they had to buy in order to comply with the law. You can't just go hunting, you have to buy a really really expensive permit to go hunting. You can't just grow your own food, you have to buy it because NIMBY(don't even get me started on Montasano).
quote:What the fuck are you talking about, and what the ever-lovin' fuck has it got to do with a father waterboarding his daughter?
The goddamned federal government told me what I had to do and what I couldn't do in my fucking classroom and my fucking house under the threat of federal punishment for violating those rules. They would not allow communities to work out the things that worked for them; they kept insisting that we shared a culture and that what worked for them was going to work for us.
What did they think was going to happen? Did they think that I was suddenly going to just become like them and start wanting and needing all the exact same things they did? They might as well have told me to grow wings and fly. Everybody keeps pointing their fingers but pointing our fingers is not going to help us at this point. People just need to stop being crybabies about it. Yeah, we get it. We all feel really sorry for the victims in this case. Stop telling us shit we already know and start telling us the shit we need to know in order to fix it.
quote:No shit sherlock. I learned that shit on the playground where I was supposed to learn it. The people who are being the problem did not, and now they won't even get into the game. But they're getting in the game one way or another, it just depends on whether they want to make things easy or difficult.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, it is not your classroom in any real sense. Nor is it completely your house. This is true in nearly every place it is practical to live. This is the price one pays for civilization.
quote:Then why did you post the opposite on this thread? Is this another joke?
Originally posted by saysay:
I learned that shit on the playground where I was supposed to learn it.
quote:Also there is a period after name changes where we are required to show our old name. Has that expired for this recent name change, or did the Martian just forget that fact?
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:It's because I'm a stupid middle class woman.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:You know, if you're going to change your name you should really stop signing off with your old one. Kinda defeats the point...
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
OliviaG
quote:Your thinking that you are right is not a trump card.
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not. I may never be able to convince anyone else, but whatever.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
saysay: You are just convinced that your opinion trumps hers. And how dare she or anyone else say otherwise?
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not.
You really believe that your prejudices and opinions constitute "truth", don't you. You poor sad fool.
quote:
I have learned that if people don't act like they learned the lessons they should have learned on the playground, it probably means that they are (or at least grew up) middle class.
quote:
What lessons are they then?
quote:You people with your binary frickin thinking. There's a financial aspect to it, but it's not all about money.
So is it about money or not?
quote:All right, you tell me. Should I answer people's questions, or should I refuse to answer them in order to stay "on topic," whatever that might mean, as no one will tell me what the topic of the conversation is.
What the fuck are you talking about, and what the ever-lovin' fuck has it got to do with a father waterboarding his daughter?
quote:If you log in and post at the same time, as I am doing now, your sig doesn't show up.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Also there is a period after name changes where we are required to show our old name. Has that expired for this recent name change, or did the Martian just forget that fact?...
quote:Yeah, I am curious about this too.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What did the federal government tell you you couldn't do in your house ? And what did they tell you you couldn't do in your classroom ?
quote:I advise strongly to the contrary. You have no idea what you may be confronted with.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Note to self: Schedule mind reading classes.
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
saysay, you are using the same kind of coded phrasing that people use who want to be allowed to "discipline" their children physically- and I mean like whipping with a belt, not a quick swat.
quote:You can't say that. You can't say that nobody in the world is even telling parents that. I am telling you that people are, and that parents are calling social services on other parents when they don't parent in a way that that parent likes, and that that is leading to people being arrested and charged with child abuse or neglect, because the definition of child abuse and neglect varies from person to person and prosecutors are insane. And the nurses and social workers and teachers can't figure out what to tell these parents who are then forced to take their classes, because while they think people shouldn't use spanking as their primary disciplinary system, they do think people should be allowed to use it, and they do think ten year-olds should be allowed to walk to the park, but they can't get the people in power to listen to them because a lot of the people in power are middle class women who are completely misogynistic, because they are some of the most misogynistic people I have ever run into in my life.
No authority is telling working-class and minority parents that they can't set and enforce limits. That's bullshit. Nobody is even telling parents they can't spank, as long as they do it with an open hand and without leaving bruises.
quote:See this Wikipedia piece on the Kinsey Reports, and this URL I found through Google, for a PDF about Kinsey and the pedophiles and the (ye gods!) Nazi torturer involved in what Kinsey was pleased to call research, on kids, regarding human sexuality.
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
... how is it possible that this guy was publishing his "research" and going on Oprah, and nobody asked where he was getting his data on children's near death experiences? I'm scared to look up his books...
quote:I didn't say you, personally, were speaking in code. I said you were using the same type of phrasing as people who are. And that you should watch out for that if you don't want people to think you're some kind of nutcase.
Originally posted by saysay:
Why does it always have to be a code with you people?
quote:OK, give me a documented example of an otherwise normal parent being convicted of a crime and punished, just for spanking. An investigation doesn't count. CPS has to investigate anytime someone calls them, even if they think it's crap- it's the rules.
...I am telling you that people are, and that parents are calling social services on other parents when they don't parent in a way that that parent likes, and that that is leading to people being arrested and charged with child abuse or neglect, because the definition of child abuse and neglect varies from person to person and prosecutors are insane.
quote:True. As I followed your links, I found that these allegations have been refuted by the Kinsey institute, and the woman who led the initial charge was abandoned by her lawyer and tossed out of court. Everybody's favourite hate group, the Family Research Council later got involved. And a Republican congressthing from Texas who tried to milk the issue. And a sensational BBC documentary.
Originally posted by Janine:
See this Wikipedia piece on the Kinsey Reports, and this URL I found through Google, for a PDF about Kinsey and the pedophiles and the (ye gods!) Nazi torturer involved in what Kinsey was pleased to call research, on kids, regarding human sexuality. ...
It amazes, what can be lauded as worthwhile, if you don't look too closely at the details.
Allegations about Childhood data in the 1948 book, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male quote:Some people, in addition to their profile signatures, end their posts by typing their name. Soror (as she is now) being one of them. Except, in the post I was replying to, she frgot that and typed her old name in instead.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Also there is a period after name changes where we are required to show our old name. Has that expired for this recent name change, or did the Martian just forget that fact?
quote:Some branch of government seems to be saying you can't waterboard your child in your own house - down with the government!
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What did the federal government tell you you couldn't do in your house ? And what did they tell you you couldn't do in your classroom ?
