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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Do you need a saviour? (savior for American friends)
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
I've been pondering about what people mean when they say "I'm a Christian" It seems to me that the church - every major demonination -apparently shares the universal doctrine which is the acceptance of Jesus as saviour.
Do you believe 'in' Jesus or do you believe him and the words he purportedly spoke? When I read the words of scripture I dont get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. I get a message which says I found the way - here is the Way - follow me - Yes you can do it"
Did He do it all for you? - (die for your sins) or did He die to his own sins. Shouldn't we do as He taught and "take up our cross" and follow him into the kingdom? Don't we have to lay down our life (the life of the 'old man') before we can take up the new life offered "in Christ"? What did He mean by His teaching "you must be born again" if not we are to be born of the Spirit of God?
Maybe what everyone did need was a good example of how to live a completely authentic life - a life full of God. Jesus said "the physician doesn't come for the well" and that he came for "the lost"
Are there some people that are not and never were lost?
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
Do you believe 'in' Jesus or do you believe him and the words he purportedly spoke? When I read the words of scripture I dont get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. I get a message which says I found the way - here is the Way - follow me - Yes you can do it"
Both
Jesus was without sin. If you are without sin, you might have a case provided those who reject the doctrine of original sin are correct. Otherwise, you need a savior.
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
Did He do it all for you? - (die for your sins) or did He die to his own sins. Shouldn't we do as He taught and "take up our cross" and follow him into the kingdom? Don't we have to lay down our life (the life of the 'old man') before we can take up the new life offered "in Christ"? What did He mean by His teaching "you must be born again" if not we are to be born of the Spirit of God?
Read all of John 3. Being born again requires believing in Jesus. The world is saved through Jesus.
[ 12. April 2012, 00:02: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
Hi Rosina,
Your questions are directly related to the different theories of atonement which are being discussed in this thread at the moment.
quote:
When I read the words of scripture I dont get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. I get a message which says I found the way - here is the Way - follow me - Yes you can do it"
Right, I agree. And that view is called the 'Moral Influence' understanding of Jesus' work / the atonement. It is about focusing on following Jesus' teachings and example, rather than believing that Jesus "did it all for us".
quote:
Maybe what everyone did need was a good example of how to live a completely authentic life - a life full of God. Jesus said "the physician doesn't come for the well" and that he came for "the lost"
Are there some people that are not and never were lost?
That is an interesting question. I have to agree that if we give full weight to these words of Jesus we would be forced to the conclusion that many people were living life rightly and were not the focus of Jesus mission. In the parable of the lost sheep, it is the 1 in a hundred that he goes to rescue, and in the parable of the lost coin it is the 1 in ten that needs finding. Christian belief has often shifted to the view that "everyone needs Jesus" but it seems doubtful that Jesus himself thought of things in such a way.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
I have to agree that if we give full weight to these words of Jesus we would be forced to the conclusion that many people were living life rightly and were not the focus of Jesus mission. In the parable of the lost sheep, it is the 1 in a hundred that he goes to rescue, and in the parable of the lost coin it is the 1 in ten that needs finding. Christian belief has often shifted to the view that "everyone needs Jesus" but it seems doubtful that Jesus himself thought of things in such a way. [/QB]
But weren´t the "not lost" people that Jesus supposedly didn´t came for the pharisees and the other "respectable" people in the society he criticized many times?
I always thought of this passage as Jesus saying he came for the people who were so lost (hookers, deprived sinners, etc) that they had humility to admit they were not good at all and needed a saviour. While the other more respectable people were happy enough thinking their status as rightful people in society meant they needed no salvation.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Jesus' criticisms of the people of higher classes (scribes and Pharisees) was mostly pointing out how they were sinning. Reading those bits in conjunction with prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah, you see how God's pretty much always been telling the people in charge that if they are screwing up (especially in the areas of mercy, justice, and righteousness), they need to straighten their acts up.
But like those Isaiah and Jeremiah and Jesus and the psalmists preached to back in their days, there's always some fool who's going to think they're untouchable because they're not one of THOSE kind of people, and go right on sinning.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosina:
Maybe what everyone did need was a good example of how to live a completely authentic life - a life full of God. Jesus said "the physician doesn't come for the well" and that he came for "the lost"
I'm ambivalent about this, believing with you that Christianity should not be so much a religion about Jesus that it neglects the religion of Jesus. And I love education and try to be knowledgeable and insightful. But the above is too reminiscent of the old utopian hope, continually resurfacing in various guises, that bad behavior is nothing but a kind of ignorance and that the human race will outgrow it if only they are properly taught. It's been tried again and again, and this hope is always dashed.
quote:
Are there some people that are not and never were lost?
Maybe, but I'm not one of them.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
A thought-provoking OP.
quote:
Originally posted by Rosina:
Do you believe 'in' Jesus or do you believe him and the words he purportedly spoke? When I read the words of scripture I dont get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. I get a message which says I found the way - here is the Way - follow me - Yes you can do it"
I believe 'in' Jesus as God making himself visible to us, as one of us, in the form of a man. Therefore, I also believe the words he spoke to us as they are recorded in the New Testament. When I read those words, I too do not get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. However, the message I do get is slightly different than the one you describe. The message I get is one which says 'I am the Way - follow me and I will give you all the help you need - you just need to commit yourself to the effort and I will do the rest.'
quote:
Maybe what everyone did need was a good example of how to live a completely authentic life - a life full of God.
I think you're right that what everyone did need was a good example, but I also think there was much more to it than that. I think the prerequisite was that God first had to re-establish a connection with us by means of a new and direct channel of communication, namely Jesus Christ. Without that direct communication, I believe that the good example, however perfect, would not have been enough.
quote:
Jesus said "the physician doesn't come for the well" and that he came for "the lost"
Are there some people that are not and never were lost?
There may be some people who are not and never were lost, but if so I believe that it is only because of the direct communication with God accomplished (and still maintained) through Jesus Christ. One passage that leads me to believe this is Matthew 28:18:
quote:
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth
Which I take to mean that there is more to consider than just what is apparent to us "on earth."
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
When I read the words of scripture I dont get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. I get a message which says I found the way - here is the Way - follow me - Yes you can do it"
Except that we can't. Even the best of us are inherently fallible and flawed.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosina:
Do you believe 'in' Jesus or do you believe him and the words he purportedly spoke?
It may be silly and naive of me, but in some ways I've never really stepped out of the Middle Ages. Christ is my liege lord, to whom I owe honour, obedience and service. And that's what I mean when I say I "believe" in him. Chaucer and his contemporaries would have understood this use of the word "belief".
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
When I read the words of scripture I dont get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. I get a message which says I found the way - here is the Way - follow me - Yes you can do it"
Except that we can't. Even the best of us are inherently fallible and flawed.
To me, the core of Christianity is the belief that we can follow Jesus.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
We can with Christ's help. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
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Posted
Thought provoking. Thank you.
I feel you have found a way to present Jesus and his message anew. The thought he is saying, "You can do it !" is terrific.
new words, new models, new approaches are really needed I think.
Also the words at the bottom of your message are great. I imagine you wrote them as they carry the seed of your idea.
Everyone has their own experience of life and God, their own story and so their own 'take'. All your options will be true for some people, I imagine.
I tend to think that different people will have different 'takes' on your questions. Also, it will vary within a person over the course of their life cycle.
Of course, Jesus' context was being born in a nation formally and existentially committed to God and to God's Teaching (Torah) and service - by following God's Mitzvoth.
You seem to say, that Jesus encouraged a (renewed ?)religious imagination. I like that, and would like to link your ideas to how Jesus shared his spirit. Or the spirit of renewed / renewable religious imagination.
Or even, simply imagination.
This may be of interest :
http://gtitl.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/that-of-god-in-everyone.html
Especially, as it says
'where we may hope to find a unity that underlies our diversity of language.'
Also :
http://www.pathsoflearning.net/articles_Quaker.pdf
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'We have to be ready to move forward' she said. 'Maybe this is not how we are meant to be for ever.' (Mina in Skellig)
Posts: 32 | From: the half way house | Registered: Feb 2012
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
When I read the words of scripture I dont get a message which says 'you can't do it I'll do it for you'. I get a message which says I found the way - here is the Way - follow me - Yes you can do it"
Except that we can't. Even the best of us are inherently fallible and flawed.
who taught you this Yerevan, and why do you believe it?
ps thanks everyone for your comments so far - lots of food for thought received.
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
What do you mean who taught her that?
Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience
Who taught you what you believe?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What do you mean who taught her that?
Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience
Who taught you what you believe?
I've had lots of teachers but ultimately - The Word of God - which proceeds from His mouth is my authority on life and living.
In fact I try not to "believe" anything for belief alone allows for the believing of lies, which was Adam's downfall.
I obey the Word of God coming through the prophet "Prove Me."
Why is it reasonable to believe "everyone is inherently fallible and flawed"
We didn't start out that way did we?
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
OK
Do you know what prooftexting means?
Do you know why basing major doctrines on prooftexting is a bad idea?
Because if you don't, your OP presents a textbook example of both and I'd be happy to explain. Seriously, my exegesis prof. would have loved an example like your OP. In fact, making up a better example than the one you've already provided would be hard.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
OK
Do you know what prooftexting means?
Do you know why basing major doctrines on prooftexting is a bad idea?
I know that proof text wars don't accomplish much and people can make scripture say pretty much what they want it to say.
It is the doctrine that one must accept Jesus as saviour in order to be a Christian that I am trying to get to grips with.
What does that mean? The word 'Jesus' means saviour doesn't it? So I see a title - Christ Jesus which translates God's anointed saviour. (Messiah)
What is it that saves - Jesus the man? or Jesus the substance of God that saves - The Holy Spirit inspired in a person creating a new 'mind and spirit'
ISTM that Jesus of Nazareth taught the way of salvation which He said is by His Father, God. So my question is what was this way and can it be proved?
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Jesus saves the world from sin. Chances are the answer to the question is, "but does Jesus saves the world from sin mean this or that," will be yes. Sin effects every part of human existence. Jesus saves every last bit of that.
Does Jesus do this by His life, death, or resurrection? Once again, the answer is yes. All of it was necessary to save the world from sin.
And, yes, Jesus had to be both fully Divine and fully Human to save the world from sin. Did God the Father participate in the salvation of the world? Yes. Did God the Holy Spirit participate in the salvation of the world? Yes. The creation, redemption, and perfection of the world is all the work of the Triune God.
Can any of that be scientifically verified or reproduced? No
Can it be proven from scripture and tradition? Yes
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
We'd have to have to establish what you mean by the word "sin" to continue that aspect of the conversation ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'd be interested to know how your statements can be "proved by scripture" except that we're not doing proof texts. :-) ISTM Jesus always honoured God as Father, Teacher and Creator and it was by laying down His life (of the old man) that Jesus became the saviour of his own world. He spoke of a Way that his disciples, when they entered and followed, declared "now we are sons of God."
They were "co-heir" to all that Jesus recieved from God - and so are all who are anointed by God in this day and age.
Maybe the title "Christian" doesn't matter to God - but I think becoming Christ-like does. Jesus came to earth in the flesh of man, and because Jesus the man lived as Christ, he became the very Spirit of God. We are all born in the flesh.
Don't we all have the same opportunities that Jesus had?
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
Mary I have just read your links - thank you - if I wasn't so determined to be unlabelable, I'm sure I could sign up as a quaker
WRT imagination - God gave his imagining abilities to man, how mankind uses it to create his life is either with the SPIRIT of God or with another spirit in every moment and in every circumstance.
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosina:
IWhat is it that saves - Jesus the man? or Jesus the substance of God that saves - The Holy Spirit inspired in a person creating a new 'mind and spirit'
As I understand it, one is 'saved' by living one's life in the way exemplified by Jesus, for which he was martyred and (however one believes it) raised from the dead. Jesus's death and/or resurrection per se didn't actually change anything by itself - it is how we are changed by following his example which matters, e.g. by listening to and obeying God's commands (to put it into strictly Christian terms).
quote:
ISTM that Jesus of Nazareth taught the way of salvation which He said is by His Father, God. So my question is what was this way and can it be proved?
Again, as I understand it, it refers to a particular way of thinking and behaving, which is sometimes referred to as 'living in Christ'. Exactly what this means in practical terms is something one comes to learn through participating in a Christian community (at least in theory).
The only real proof is through the 'fruits of the spirit' (roughly speaking, the attributes of saintliness) as displayed by those people who may be said to have understood what that means, and have put it into practice in their lives.
There is also the possibility held out of some sort of 'day of judgement', when those who have turned away from God are punished or separated in some manner - these days, it seems to be believed more in New Age circles than in mainstream Christianity.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Is anybody in scripture other than Jesus without sin? Who would that be? How do you know? Who do you know is completely without sin? How do you know?
You quote Mark 2:17 where Jesus says the healthy do not need a physician but only sinners. Jesus never says the people he's eating with aren't sinners. Is it your contention that the teachers of the law and the pharisees are without sin? How do you reconcile that with Jesus strong denunciation of pharisees and teachers of the law in Matthew 23?
You bring up the parable of the 99 mentioned in Matthew and Luke. Note again, Jesus tells the parable in response to the pharisees and scribes complaining that he accepts sinners like the tax collectors. I ask again. Do you believe Jesus was saying the pharisees were without sin? I'd like to see you offer a single ounce of support for that scripture? Take a hard look at Matthew 5.
Did Jesus just die for his own sin? Why does John the Baptist call Jesus the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world? If all we need is an example, why does Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit? Why does Jesus tell Nicodemus that through Jesus the world will be saved if we can be saved? If it is about action, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to believe? If all we need is an example, why wasn't John the Baptist a sufficient example? Why could he only point the way to Jesus?
Keep in mind, I've only mentioned the gospels. Once we look at the rest of the New Testament and the majority of Christian tradition, your argument falls rather hard. Christians teach Jesus that is the savior of the world because scripture and tradition teach that he is. Why do Christians teach we can't live without sin? I'd think experience would teach us that.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
Holy Smoke I agree with everything you have written.
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Is anybody in scripture other than Jesus without sin? Who would that be? How do you know? Who do you know is completely without sin? How do you know?
As Holy Smoke says "their fruits"
I don't spend a lot of time thinking about "sin" however as you have mentioned it twice I will give you my understanding - which is basically - separation from God which comes about by believing lies.
Instead of Do you need a saviour? in my original question, I could have asked Are you separated from Jesus?
I just think there is a danger that we make Jesus an idol of worship and that diverts us from doing the hard things he said we need to be doing - ie loving God, loving neighbours, giving up sin, becoming clean, seeking the kingdom, walking in the light etc.
What do you think he meant by "Take up your cross" and "follow me"?
Didn't He pray that we "be one" ?
BEESWAX ALTAR wrote:
"You quote Mark 2:17 where Jesus says the healthy do not need a physician but only sinners. Jesus never says the people he's eating with aren't sinners. Is it your contention that the teachers of the law and the pharisees are without sin? "
Hardly - (not at all)
AND:
"Did Jesus just die for his own sin? Why does John the Baptist call Jesus the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world? If all we need is an example, why does Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit? Why does Jesus tell Nicodemus that through Jesus the world will be saved if we can be saved? If it is about action, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to believe? If all we need is an example, why wasn't John the Baptist a sufficient example? Why could he only point the way to Jesus?"
Lots of questions there BA
A "lamb" was traditionally sent away into the desert as a sin offering. The "Lamb" is a true child of God.
When Jesus spoke the words "through him" isn't he referring to himself as the "Son of God"? It is the promise of God to resurrect this same Holy Spirit in mankind that was once in Adam. What is it Jesus told Nicodemus to "believe" ?. I suggest it is that God keeps His promises. It is important to believe that God is and will keep His promises - because unbelief closes the door.
It is about action - the action of God and His works of removing that which caused death of Adam and raising man up from this death to life - the Life God gives.
B Altar wrote:
"Keep in mind, I've only mentioned the gospels. Once we look at the rest of the New Testament and the majority of Christian tradition, your argument falls rather hard. Christians teach Jesus that is the savior of the world because scripture and tradition teach that he is. Why do Christians teach we can't live without sin? I'd think experience would teach us that. "
Why did Jesus ask that His disciples "be one" with Him and His Father, if He didn't believe we could "be one"?
Is God impotent? Has He stopped raising His Son?
I hate the fact that "Christians teach we can't live without sin" I think that is a lie which says God cannot transform people and create "a new person" - and it negates Paul's teaching who was changed and transformed - from Saul to Paul.
There is only one proviso it seems to me and that is to "become clean" If you believe Jesus who said "my word has made you clean" why are you still sinning? - Stop it!
(I'm not sure what you believe my "argument" is - I didn't realise I was pushing any particular view or position) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Can it be proven from scripture and tradition? Yes
But only for a given value of proven
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Can it be proven from scripture and tradition? Yes
But only for a given value of proven
In theology, as in any field of study, certain axioms are accepted as given. You've already indicated you don't accept the axioms, which is fine by me. What is this attempt at correcting the statements of others intended to prove?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Is anybody in scripture other than Jesus without sin? Who would that be? How do you know?
Various early Church fathers (eg Athanasius) pointed to Mary, John the Baptist, Jeremiah (and a few others I think) as people who were without sin. Seems like pure speculation to me. But you did point to "Tradition" as one of your sources of belief, so maybe you'll believe it because of that.
quote:
Who do you know is completely without sin?
I think your assumption here that we need to be / ought to be "completely without sin" is flawed. I'm happy to say that humans are finite fallible creatures, and that no one is completely without sin. BUT, God is tolerant, kind, gracious, loving and forgiving and doesn't get upset over every tiniest speck of sin. You've apparently been taught the idea that if we sin "even once" we are "a sinner" and unacceptable to God. Unfortunately such an idea is completely unbiblical.
The Bible's attitude to whether a person is a sinner or righteous is quite different. It uses these words like we would use the terms "bad person" and "good person". It is a matter of whether a person diligently seeks for good or whether they consistently reject the good. Being a sinner and righteous is a matter of your overall life, not a matter of individual acts: Sinning once doesn't make you a sinner any more than acting rightly once makes you righteous.
The early Church Father Origen explains this well:
quote:
Origen, Commentary on Romans 5.5.3-4,7
"It is one thing to have sinned, another to be a sinner. One is called a sinner who, by committing many transgressions, has already reached the point of making sinning into a habit and, so to speak, a course of study. Just as, on the other hand, one is not called righteous who has once or twice done some righteous act, but who continually behaves justly and keeps righteousness in use and makes it habitual. For if someone is unjust in nearly all other matters but should carry out some just work one or two times, he will indeed be said to have acted justly in that work in which he practised justice' nevertheless he will not be a just man. Similarly it will indeed be said that a righteous man has sinned if he has at some time committed what is not lawful. But he will not on that account be labelled a sinner, since he does not hold fast to the practice and habit of sinning....
4. For it can happen that all people commit sin, even if they are holy... For who is there who does not sin either in deed or in word or, if one is extremely cautious, at least in thought?....
7. You may find in the Holy Scriptures many things of this sort in which you will discover both that the righteous man has committed sin and the sinner has done some righteous things. Nevertheless you will not find either the righteous man called a sinner because he sinned in some matter, or the sinner designated as a righteous man because he did something just."
Your idea that humans need be entirely without sin is a serious mistake in biblical interpretation and leads to serious misunderstandings of the atonement. The fact that the standards of behaviour that God requires of humans are achievable is a pretty key theological point. For 1500 years right up until the Reformation, Christians unanimously believed that God's final judgment would be according to their works / life lead, and that it was possible to achieve a positive judgment through living a good life... and that's not surprising given it's what the Bible teaches.
quote:
Did Jesus just die for his own sin?
Jesus came to lead people out of sin, and was killed for it. His martyrs death and subsequent resurrection provides additional motivation to follow his message.
quote:
If all we need is an example, why does Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit?
Why not use all the tools in the toolbox to get the job done? Jesus taught, he gave an example, he founded the Church to continue doing the work, he sent the Holy Spirit to keep helping etc. Often I think humanity needs all the help it can get.
quote:
If it is about action, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to believe?
The Greek word you are translating "believe" is more accurately translated as "be faithful". Faithfully following Jesus' teachings was essential.
quote:
If all we need is an example, why wasn't John the Baptist a sufficient example? Why could he only point the way to Jesus?
Many of the early Church Fathers thought that God had given humanity many examples and teachers throughout history, as he had sent many prophets to the Jews and many philosophers to the Greeks. Finally he sent His Son to do the same.
quote:
Keep in mind, I've only mentioned the gospels. Once we look at the rest of the New Testament and the majority of Christian tradition, your argument falls rather hard.
For the first few couple of hundred years after the New Testament, the early Church Fathers all teach a Moral Influence view of the atonement as their primary understanding. For most of them it is the only view of the atonement they express in their writings. That is hardly surprising, since the New Testament's statements about Jesus and what he accomplished are overwhelmingly of a Moral Influence form. From the fourth century onwards, theologians began to focus on other models of the atonement in addition and we start to see Ransom from Satan ideas and Recapitulation ideas becoming common in their writings in addition to Moral Influence.
Even Augustine, the famous advocate of the new doctrine of the complete depravity of humanity, retained his Moral Influence heritage - he simply taught that the Holy Spirit needed to radically alter fallen human psychology before the believer was able to do the good that pleased God. It wasn't until Anselm in the 11th century sowed the seeds and the Reformers in the 16th century that grew them that we see a systematic rejection of humanity's ability to do the good that pleases God and thus a systematic rejection of a Moral Influence way of thinking about Jesus.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
In theology, as in any field of study, certain axioms are accepted as given. You've already indicated you don't accept the axioms, which is fine by me. What is this attempt at correcting the statements of others intended to prove?
Not everyone who reads these posts is conversant with the theological acceptance of certain axioms.
It is possible that some of us could have stupidly misunderstand the use of "proof" as intended to indicate the existence of an unassailable fact. Your assistance in requesting that I clarify my intention to disabuse the ignorant (if any) is much appreciated.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
I don't spend a lot of time thinking about "sin" however as you have mentioned it twice I will give you my understanding - which is basically - separation from God which comes about by believing lies.
Separation from God is the result of sin. Happens solely from believing in lies? Again, scripture in the Old and New Testament would disagree with you. I notice you didn't even offer a prooftext to support that conclusion.
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
I just think there is a danger that we make Jesus an idol of worship and that diverts us from doing the hard things he said we need to be doing - ie loving God, loving neighbours, giving up sin, becoming clean, seeking the kingdom, walking in the light etc.
Jesus isn't an idol of worship. Jesus is God and due our worship. We obey Jesus because He is God. We are unable to completely follow Jesus on our own without grace.
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
Hardly - (not at all)
So, where were these perfect people that didn't need a savior?
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
A "lamb" was traditionally sent away into the desert as a sin offering. The "Lamb" is a true child of God.
Assuming that's true, how does Jesus take away the sins of the world? What was so special about Jesus? Why couldn't John the Baptist take away the sin of the world?
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
When Jesus spoke the words "through him" isn't he referring to himself as the "Son of God"? It is the promise of God to resurrect this same Holy Spirit in mankind that was once in Adam.
He is referring to Himself. Resurrecting the Holy Spirit? I can't even think of a prooftext that supports anything like that.
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
What is it Jesus told Nicodemus to "believe" ?. I suggest it is that God keeps His promises.
And yet that isn't in John 3. Now, you are just making it up as you go. Fine. I can do that. Jesus also told Nicodemus that The Who would be a better rock band than The Rolling Stones.
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
Why did Jesus ask that His disciples "be one" with Him and His Father, if He didn't believe we could "be one"?
Is God impotent? Has He stopped raising His Son?
God isn't impotent. You were talking about humans and not God. And Jesus said let them be one even as we are one. Jesus was praying for the unity of his disciples. Jesus wasn't saying that the disciples could become one with God even as He was one with God.
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
I hate the fact that "Christians teach we can't live without sin" I think that is a lie which says God cannot transform people and create "a new person" - and it negates Paul's teaching who was changed and transformed - from Saul to Paul.
Stop me if you've heard this one..."For by grace you have been saved through faith." Heck, read Ephesians chapter 2 yourself. Who are all these people you see living without sin? You must hang out with a better sort of person than I do. I haven't even met a serious candidate.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The answer to your question is both simple and complicated.
Saviour? specifically for me? Not on a one-time basis. It seems in this disastrous world, the saving is an ongoing thing, with individuals over the everyday course of their life and death. The saving by God / Jesus appears to be in the form of something other worldly with relative disinterest in suffering within the world except via the actions of others.
Thus, it seems clear that God has limited need for me as a suffering human, right here, right now. I hope his interest increases after I die or he kills me. Which ever comes first.
[ 12. April 2012, 23:15: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosina:
Are there some people that are not and never were lost?
If there were they would not fear death.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Jesus also told Nicodemus that The Who would be a better rock band than The Rolling Stones.
And this clear statement of the truth is yet another reason to believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
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Posted
What Starlight said.
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Is anybody in scripture other than Jesus without sin? Who would that be? How do you know?
Various early Church fathers (eg Athanasius) pointed to Mary, John the Baptist, Jeremiah (and a few others I think) as people who were without sin. Seems like pure speculation to me. But you did point to "Tradition" as one of your sources of belief, so maybe you'll believe it because of that.
quote:
Who do you know is completely without sin?
I think your assumption here that we need to be / ought to be "completely without sin" is flawed. I'm happy to say that humans are finite fallible creatures, and that no one is completely without sin. BUT, God is tolerant, kind, gracious, loving and forgiving and doesn't get upset over every tiniest speck of sin. You've apparently been taught the idea that if we sin "even once" we are "a sinner" and unacceptable to God. Unfortunately such an idea is completely unbiblical.
The Bible's attitude to whether a person is a sinner or righteous is quite different. It uses these words like we would use the terms "bad person" and "good person". It is a matter of whether a person diligently seeks for good or whether they consistently reject the good. Being a sinner and righteous is a matter of your overall life, not a matter of individual acts: Sinning once doesn't make you a sinner any more than acting rightly once makes you righteous.
The early Church Father Origen explains this well:
quote:
Origen, Commentary on Romans 5.5.3-4,7
"It is one thing to have sinned, another to be a sinner. One is called a sinner who, by committing many transgressions, has already reached the point of making sinning into a habit and, so to speak, a course of study. Just as, on the other hand, one is not called righteous who has once or twice done some righteous act, but who continually behaves justly and keeps righteousness in use and makes it habitual. For if someone is unjust in nearly all other matters but should carry out some just work one or two times, he will indeed be said to have acted justly in that work in which he practised justice' nevertheless he will not be a just man. Similarly it will indeed be said that a righteous man has sinned if he has at some time committed what is not lawful. But he will not on that account be labelled a sinner, since he does not hold fast to the practice and habit of sinning....
4. For it can happen that all people commit sin, even if they are holy... For who is there who does not sin either in deed or in word or, if one is extremely cautious, at least in thought?....
7. You may find in the Holy Scriptures many things of this sort in which you will discover both that the righteous man has committed sin and the sinner has done some righteous things. Nevertheless you will not find either the righteous man called a sinner because he sinned in some matter, or the sinner designated as a righteous man because he did something just."
Your idea that humans need be entirely without sin is a serious mistake in biblical interpretation and leads to serious misunderstandings of the atonement. The fact that the standards of behaviour that God requires of humans are achievable is a pretty key theological point. For 1500 years right up until the Reformation, Christians unanimously believed that God's final judgment would be according to their works / life lead, and that it was possible to achieve a positive judgment through living a good life... and that's not surprising given it's what the Bible teaches.
quote:
Did Jesus just die for his own sin?
Jesus came to lead people out of sin, and was killed for it. His martyrs death and subsequent resurrection provides additional motivation to follow his message.
quote:
If all we need is an example, why does Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit?
Why not use all the tools in the toolbox to get the job done? Jesus taught, he gave an example, he founded the Church to continue doing the work, he sent the Holy Spirit to keep helping etc. Often I think humanity needs all the help it can get.
quote:
If it is about action, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to believe?
The Greek word you are translating "believe" is more accurately translated as "be faithful". Faithfully following Jesus' teachings was essential.
quote:
If all we need is an example, why wasn't John the Baptist a sufficient example? Why could he only point the way to Jesus?
Many of the early Church Fathers thought that God had given humanity many examples and teachers throughout history, as he had sent many prophets to the Jews and many philosophers to the Greeks. Finally he sent His Son to do the same.
quote:
Keep in mind, I've only mentioned the gospels. Once we look at the rest of the New Testament and the majority of Christian tradition, your argument falls rather hard.
For the first few couple of hundred years after the New Testament, the early Church Fathers all teach a Moral Influence view of the atonement as their primary understanding. For most of them it is the only view of the atonement they express in their writings. That is hardly surprising, since the New Testament's statements about Jesus and what he accomplished are overwhelmingly of a Moral Influence form. From the fourth century onwards, theologians began to focus on other models of the atonement in addition and we start to see Ransom from Satan ideas and Recapitulation ideas becoming common in their writings in addition to Moral Influence.
Even Augustine, the famous advocate of the new doctrine of the complete depravity of humanity, retained his Moral Influence heritage - he simply taught that the Holy Spirit needed to radically alter fallen human psychology before the believer was able to do the good that pleased God. It wasn't until Anselm in the 11th century sowed the seeds and the Reformers in the 16th century that grew them that we see a systematic rejection of humanity's ability to do the good that pleases God and thus a systematic rejection of a Moral Influence way of thinking about Jesus.
I have learned much from this and also much to ponder ! Thank you.
I feel my own ignorance too, but am not discouraged. I shall seek to follow up on the various references and thoughts you give here. I wish I knew more.
I find it quite exciting as well as encouraging.
Are you by any chance Russian or Greek Orthodox ? I am just wondering if that tradition has informed your thinking ?
(If so Easter on Sunday !)
[ 13. April 2012, 01:43: Message edited by: Mary Marriott ]
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'We have to be ready to move forward' she said. 'Maybe this is not how we are meant to be for ever.' (Mina in Skellig)
Posts: 32 | From: the half way house | Registered: Feb 2012
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mary Marriott:
Are you by any chance Russian or Greek Orthodox? I am just wondering if that tradition has informed your thinking?
I would regard myself as Anglican / Eastern Orthodox in theology. I agree with much Eastern Orthodox teaching, as I think the early Church Fathers were essentially right in their doctrinal teachings / biblical interpretation, and the Eastern Orthodox church has remained far more faithful to the teachings of the early church than have other forms of Christianity (eg Roman Catholics / Protestants). There are very few Orthodox churches in my country and their services are not in English (ie they cater to immigrants), so it is not practical for me to attend them regularly. I also had a Baptist upbringing, so I find the EO style of service isn't quite what I'm used to / prefer. I enjoy reading works by Eastern Orthodox writers however.
[ 13. April 2012, 03:11: Message edited by: Starlight ]
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Jesus saves the world from sin.
I think most Christians would agree with this. It's the "how" of it that might differ from one to another. I don't believe that Jesus died on a cross to take the punishment due to us. I do believe that by His life, death, resurrection and ascension, He shows us how to live a life in which the human will is aligned to the divine will. This can all be found in Moses and the prophets as Jesus said (Lk 16.29) It can be found in Micah 6.8. In fact I have always loved the Jewish belief that, by an act of repentance, one can instantly restore the divine image within. So I don't believe we need to be saved from original sin.
Jesus id the Messiah of Israel, the King of the Jews and the Son of God, all of which would have been interchangeable terms. He is the Torah made flesh. The whole of the Law and the prophets, its spirit not just its letter in embodied in Him. Which is why Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration. So in His fulfillment of the Law and the prophets, and its universalisation to the whole world, His sacrificial death brings into human history the eternal sacrifice of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Your idea that humans need be entirely without sin is a serious mistake in biblical interpretation and leads to serious misunderstandings of the atonement.
Quite so. Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness (Gen 15.6). If we are faithful to our promises to God, and throw ourselves on His mercy whenever we go astray, that faithfulness is our righteousness.
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
The Greek word you are translating "believe" is more accurately translated as "be faithful". Faithfully following Jesus' teachings was essential.
This difference between faith and belief has, IMO, caused much confusion. I know of people who lead completely unreconstructed lives who are sure they're saved because they believe in Jesus. Well so do the fallen angels! It's the faithfulness to at least try to follow His teachings, while always in a state of readiness to admit to Him our failings, which is the faith that saves.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
I would regard myself as Anglican / Eastern Orthodox in theology.
There was a time when Anglicanism could easily have aligned itself more, at least theologically, with the Orthodox Church. After the Elizabethan Settlement, theologians like Lancelot Andrewes (1555-1626), in trying to make a rainbow coalition of former Catholics, Calvinists and Puritans, appealed over their heads to the Patristic tradition of the early Undivided Church, as the primary source of his incarnational theology. Based on the notion that the further from the source, the muddier the water, perhaps he had a point.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
quote:
snip
Separation from God is the result of sin. Happens solely from believing in lies? Again, scripture in the Old and New Testament would disagree with you. I notice you didn't even offer a prooftext to support that conclusion.
How did Adam die if not because he believed a lie?
[/QUOTE]Jesus isn't an idol of worship. Jesus is God and due our worship. We obey Jesus because He is God.
This was only decided at Nicea three hundred or so years after his life and death. There is nowhere in scripture where Jesus said he was/is God. On the contrary he said things like "why do you call me good............" He always spoke as the Son of God always giving honour to God His Father and the Works of God within - he called himself the son of man far more often that the Son of God.
I would say "we obey Jesus because He taught a Way to "know the truth" of God - the matters of God and how to recieve Life from God - having recieved this Life himself"
snip
[/QUOTE] Resurrecting the Holy Spirit? I can't even think of a prooftext that supports anything like that.
others on this thread have written "in Christ" how is a person "in Christ" without being anointed by God? How does God anoint if not by inspiring His Holy Spirit?
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
What is it Jesus told Nicodemus to "believe" ?. I suggest it is that God keeps His promises.
And yet that isn't in John 3.
so? - do you have the bible as your authority?
Try the living Word - :-)
snip
Isn't a covenant a promise?
What is the promise of God? My understanding is that He has promised to restore man to life from death and "in that day none shall need to be taught about God for they shall know God" (paraphrasing scripture).
quote:
originally posted by Rosina:
Why did Jesus ask that His disciples "be one" with Him and His Father, if He didn't believe we could "be one"?
Is God impotent? Has He stopped raising His Son?
God isn't impotent. You were talking about humans and not God. And Jesus said let them be one even as we are one. Jesus was praying for the unity of his disciples. Jesus wasn't saying that the disciples could become one with God even as He was one with God.
In your understanding - that is not my understanding Beeswax Alter
quote:
snip
Stop me if you've heard this one..."For by grace you have been saved through faith."
Yes indeed - I have "faith" that God fulfills His promises.
The question I have to ask is do you believe that Jesus died a physical death in shedding his blood so that you could remain in sin and keep looking down upon others for their sin? Is that your true faith?
Or did Jesus die the death that we all must die, of ignorance - having the faith that we can overcome mountains of obstacles through steps of walking in the Spirit of Christ that Jesus took on as his body. A body of belief and faith and then shed the old blood - (mans ways) and put on a new body wearing the garments that speak of those things - such as faith with courage to do those things he said for us to do. Faith with respect to his teachings. Faith with honour in accepting our duty, and Faith that Love said we could?
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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
Posts: 75 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Apr 2010
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