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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miracles in Brisbane, Australia
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Tilley
Shipmate
# 13687
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Posted
Teenagers claim miracle cures.
quote:
The Pentecostal group Culture Shifters says it has healed people suffering from cancer and multiple sclerosis [...]
Children from the group have been approaching people at random on the street, prompting alarm from parents and warnings from doctors for the sick to seek medical attention.
I used to work at a pentecostal school but don't remember any of the teenagers there approaching strangers or performing healings.
Is this something happening in other cities? I'm a bit surprised at the claimed 95% success rate. (Had to check it wasn't a late April Fool's joke.)
For that matter, I wouldn't have had the boldness to offer ministry to anyone at that age but maybe I was very shy, or not sufficiently emboldened by the Holy Spirit. Maybe these young people are amazingly on fire and open to sharing gifts.
There is a link to a YouTube video at that link also.
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My blog
Posts: 257 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There is a trend for this sort of thing now. Bethel in the US have been encouraging it and I know of one or two places in the UK that go in for this sort of thing - all claiming spectacular results that are rarely (if ever) verified.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
I'm not totally inclined to diss this before its been examined a bit more.
I am in a Bethel influenced church and I can say that i have experienced unlikely healing myself -a bad Sciatica healed instantly (on New Years Day) and believe me I know this kind of thing doesnt disappear spontaneously!
However 95% sounds incredibly high in my experience - i suspect it isnt being that rigorously measured.
I think we should take the (biblical) Gamaliel's advice and wait and see if its from God or Man.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
I am highly suspicious of the 95% rate.
An experienced pastor I know who has had remarkable healings in his many years of ministry said that the rate is more like 10%...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Young people in church, practicing their faith in Christ, some people (if not 95%) getting healed, a buzz about Jesus down under - lots there to be grateful for.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Young and impressionable people who could get very hurt and disillusioned by this if it all goes pear-shaped and the putative results do not transpire.
Young people who could potentially lose their faith in Christ if this all turns out to be moonshine.
Some people getting healed (yet to be verified).
A buzz about Jesus Down-Under that could end up with people distrusting Christians and the Church if they find these claims are (to use a phrase Eutychus dislikes) over-egged ...
Lots there to be concerned about.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Who is Bethel please?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's a charismatic church/group of churches based in California and led by a guy called Bill Johnson. It's quite influential in some circles but also quite controversial.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd be a lot more impressed if these young people were serving soup to down-and-outs, helping their neighbours, sharing the love of Christ in practical ways with those around them - which may or may not include healing.
It seems to me that whenever there is an inveterate focus on these sort of things, claims of supernatural happenings and so on and so forth that it all ends in tears - or else rapid adjustments of the original claims.
I don't doubt that these things sometimes happen - I'm neither inveterately 'liberal' with a belief in a non-interventionist God, nor conservatively 'cessationist' with a belief that these things should be confined to the pages of the New Testament.
But the idea that there's always going to be a 'new thing' or a 'new phase' or an increase in signs and wonders and what-have-you I find very unpalatable. The rhetoric always belies the reality.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
I'm not totally inclined to diss this before its been examined a bit more.
I'm sorry but this is exactly wrong. For extraordinary claims, the burden of proof is on those claiming the extraordinary, not on those claiming it's rubbish.
Bethel and its ilk have form (see here and here (the context is relevant too but this is the bit where I check the story)) on posting extravagant claims and failing to retract them properly even when they are proven to be false. The absence of the miraculous runs counter to the major premise of their "Kingdom Now" theology, so not only is there no incentive to disprove it, there is no place for its absence in their worldview.
I believe in contemporary miraculous healing, but I don't believe it's any more present in groups where this much noise is made about it, and quite possibly less, than elsewhere. It's a sign and a token of exceptional grace, and not an entitlement or an eschatalogical imperative.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
My experience is the more people you pray for the more have encounters with the Holy Spirit including healing. If you want to see non believers encounter the Holy Spirit you generally need to go and find them on their turf rather than inviting them onto yours. As someone once pointed out to me 'they shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover' is a consequence of 'Go into all the world and preach the good news.'
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
quote:
Posted by Ramarius: My experience is the more people you pray for the more have encounters with the Holy Spirit including healing. If you want to see non believers encounter the Holy Spirit you generally need to go and find them on their turf rather than inviting them onto yours. As someone once pointed out to me 'they shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover' is a consequence of 'Go into all the world and preach the good news.'
Ramarius: Do you mean (by your first line) that you get 'better' at praying for healing and the like? Or just the numbers thing, the more people you pray for the more people you've prayed for?
Why does 'encountering the Holy Spirit' have to look like that? When I was an atheist I would have run as fast as I could away from any teenager approaching me in the street and telling me they/God had healed cancer and wanted to pray for me. I'd have wanted evidence, medically verified evidence. I still would and I work for the church. Encounters with the Holy Spirit come in all kinds of manifestations. It's not this way or nothing.
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!
I'm not saying that I believe healings could never happen, I can't quite bring myself to count it out on that one, I think if they do they are exceptionally rare. And people do sometimes get better of their own accord too. It's called an immune system. And the placebo effect works too...and, and, and...
Is this the 'clean, Christian' version of teens going off the deep end and testing boundaries? Why does the Christian life have to involve so much bloody drama? Just get on with it kids. Though I suppose the law of undulation will hit 'em all soon enough.
Blimey I've gotten cynical.
I sort of wish I could believe in it but I think that then sets up God as a God I'd want little to do with.
It's a thinker.
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!
Some do the snake handling bit though...
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tilley:
Teenagers claim miracle cures.
There is a link to a YouTube video at that link also.
The top link is inconclusive to say the least.
I am really trying hard to get into the bottom one, which is 51:56 long ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) but I have to say that when the "incredible man of God" [sic] says at 1:40
quote:
I'm a typical pastor, which means that we don't get paid a lot of money so God gives us a hot wife
it did not inspire me to press on.
[ 15. April 2012, 19:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
I'm a typical pastor, which means that we don't get paid a lot of money so God gives us a hot wife
it did not inspire me to press on.
Are you denying that your wife is hot, Eutychus?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's relatively easy, Ramarius. It's called suggestibility. You go around enough people laying hands on them and you'll soon enough find people who'll go along with your expectations.
You could use that argument to justify anything.
If the JWs and Mormons knock on enough people's doors they'll find sufficiently vulnerable people who are likely to join their Bible study groups and what-have-you sooner or later.
It's the same with this 'prayer ministry' and 'healing on the streets' stuff. You go around doing that enough times and you'll find people who'll go along with it - and it'll even look pretty convincing for a while.
Some of it might be, but there'll be lots of collateral damage along the way.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Au contraire.
However, the hotness of my wife is not something I tend to vaunt from the platform. But you already knew that.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's Derren Brown stuff. He goes around doing this sort of thing all the time. Anyone can do it.
I used to go around laying hands on people during the 'Toronto Blessing' thing and they'd fall over on cue. Why? Because the expectation had been created that this is what would happen.
I can think of one or two occasions that may have been more mysterious and spontaneous than that, but on the whole I'm now convinced that it was 'learned behaviour' and responses to subtle (or not so subtle) cues. Not in every instance, but enough to give me pause.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can think of one or two occasions that may have been more mysterious and spontaneous than that, but on the whole I'm now convinced that it was 'learned behaviour' and responses to subtle (or not so subtle) cues. Not in every instance, but enough to give me pause.
Yep, I would tend to agree with you on the relative frequency that such things were genuine. You might find the following of interest (from a former Pentecostal evangelist):
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/marjoe.htm
""I lecture in about twenty colleges a year," he began, "and I do a faith-healing demonstration -- but I always make them ask for it. I tell them that I don't believe in it, that I use a lot of tricks; the title of the lecture is 'Rhetoric and Charisma,' so I've already told them the whole rap explaining how it's done, but they still want to see it. So I throw it all right back at them. I say, 'No, you don't really want to see it.' And they say, 'Oh, yes. We do. We do!' And I say, 'But you don't believe in it anyway, so I can't do it.' And they say, 'We believe. We believe!' So after about twenty minutes of this I ask for a volunteer, and I have a girl come up and I say, 'So you want to feel better?' And I say, 'You're lying to me! You're just up here for a good time and you want to impress all these people and you want to make an ass out of me and an ass out of this whole thing, so why don't you just go back and sit down?' I get really hard on her, and she says, 'No, no, I believe!' And I keep going back and forth until she's almost in tears. And then, even though this is in a college crowd and I'm only doing it as a joke, I just say my same old line, In the name of Jesus! and touch them on the head, and wham, they fall down flat every time.""
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, I've seen it done with a lot less 'working up' than that ...
But you're right, it's relatively easy to work this sort of thing up. In an atmosphere where people are already suggestible, it's a breeze, a cinch ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Young and impressionable people who could get very hurt and disillusioned by this if it all goes pear-shaped and the putative results do not transpire.
At the moment I am working closely with (yet) another young adult who has been screwed by Bethel. For a couple of years now she has been heading off to be slammed, burned, thwackoed and otherwise baveroovied by the Holy Spirit twice a week. She is now sliding into deep clinical depression because the Holy Spirit is no longer doing what she wants Her to do.
I'm trying to be patient. What I want to say is 'these guys have fucked your mind'.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
Derren Brown did quite an interesting special when he set up an unknown as a faith healer which included a section on healing on the streets.
Its perhaps not remembered that a Christian group partnered Derren Brown to make sure it was convincing, as part of an expose of 'fake' healers.
I take the point that the power of autosuggestion and learned behaviour is strong, and DB showed how it occurs, but i would say i'm aware of this factor. I know what Cold Reading is - although i dont detect it in my Church , but i have in others. I generally try NOT to fall over when prayed for - but its about even money that i do - I dont ever know why!
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!
I dont know any Greek , or any Greek scholars but I bet that part and the snake handling bit are in the passive - ie just something that happens to you in daily life, and you dont go out looking for it ! That said the only person i have heard of doing this is Rasputin!
The laying on of hands seems to be an active part of the call, to be 'gone out and done' so i think they are in a slightly different class.
True linguists - come and prove me wrong!
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't pretend to understand the falling-over thing, but my suspicion is that it gets 'anchored' somehow as a form of repetitive behaviour after a while, in a somewhat Pavlovian manner. That said, I wouldn't dismiss every single instance of it I've seen or experienced.
Ultimately, though, I'm not sure it's any big deal whether it happens or doesn't happen.
As for Rasputin and drinking poison ... well, historians these days are generally of the view that his killers exaggerated his apparent resilience and ability to survive plying with poison and being shot several times in order to make him appear more evil and mysterious and their own actions the more justifiable. Apparently it seems that he was simply shot and fell down just like anyone else ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!
Some do the snake handling bit though...
And the poison drinking
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
The poison line was just a joke, and I get that the passage doesn't mean it at face value! Though I'd not be surprised if some did try.
I suppose it'd be one way to prove you had faith...
Having said that, I've drunk some pretty questionable stuff in my time so who am I to judge?
[ 15. April 2012, 22:41: Message edited by: Masha ]
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
There are miracles happening in Brisbane?
Why wasn't I told?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'm one of those who presently finds this sort of thing deeply offensive. I have limited exposure to Pentecostal churches, and have nothing whatsoever against them.
It is when people believe they are channelling God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit such that they are directly involved in the miracles. None of us can claim this. And if you can, and it is true, then God is my enemy because he chose you and forgot and ignored us in our time of peril. The Holy Spirit having fled from all of us outside of your circle.
Thus I can only thank-you Zappa, for stating precisely what it is: "mind fucking" (which is a bona fide technical term originating with Fritz Perls isn't it?). ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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savedbyhim01
Apprentice
# 17035
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Posted
I've always struggled a bit with what to think about these kinds of reports. On the one side God is powerful and He can choose to heal anyone at anytime. On the other hand, I've heard of so many times when these kinds of things were fabricated that it makes me a little gun shy. I agree that the burden of proof is on the ones making the claims. However, I wouldn't "disbelieve" it until I had all of the details.
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Matthew 28:18-20
My Inductive Bible Study Notes
Posts: 31 | From: China | Registered: Apr 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
The poison line was just a joke, and I get that the passage doesn't mean it at face value! Though I'd not be surprised if some did try.
I suppose it'd be one way to prove you had faith...
Having said that, I've drunk some pretty questionable stuff in my time so who am I to judge?
I believe they drink strychnine. I've only read about it. Frankly, drinking poison impressed me more than handling snakes.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by savedbyhim01:
I agree that the burden of proof is on the ones making the claims. However, I wouldn't "disbelieve" it until I had all of the details.
But this is how these people end up perpetrating spiritual seduction. Inadvertently or otherwise, they capitalise on other christians' innate disposition to be nice and their innate sense of guilt that they might be found to be speaking against the work of God.
Into that benefit of the doubt they drive a whole truckload of bad theology, bad expectations and bad practice that is giving people like Zappa far too much work.
It's not rocket science. Jesus says that people who can be entrusted with little can be entrusted with more. These people can't be entrusted with basic record-keeping and fact-checking. I somehow don't think they're going to be wielding much healing power.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
Eutychus said: quote:
I believe in contemporary miraculous healing, but I don't believe it's any more present in groups where this much noise is made about it, and quite possibly less, than elsewhere. It's a sign and a token of exceptional grace, and not an entitlement or an eschatalogical imperative.
Amen to that !
My impression is that those organisations who make the most noise about healings and other manifestations of God's grace, are to be avoided.
The work of God seems, to me, to happen very quietly (but no less powerfully) and in often very mundane ways. Like Gamaliel said, running a soup kitchen for the homeless, or an OAP visiting service.
Often , and this is the saddest thing, people are looking for (they were in Jesus' day) glitzzy signs and wonders. I would be concerned for these young people that when the ''bubble bursts'' many will be hurt and may even reject Christ.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I've seen enough of the well known "name it and claim it" faith healers and the damage they can cause, not to mention the personal judgments/insults thrown my way because I've not been healed to avoid those teachers and mega churches. I've seen miraculous healings so I know God heals - but not on demand and not nearly to the degree some of these churches are claiming. Sadly, in the U.S. the bigger and flashier the churches are and the more well known pastors are the ones that tend to be trusted without question. Bethel is a church that has made spurious claims in the past (multiple people raised from the dead story that was discredited but never acknowledged as untrue) and for some reason many Christians are hesitant to doubt their word on theology.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Savedbyhim01, I'm not sure I've heard or seen much by way of out-and-out fabrication, but in my experience these groups are lured into a heightened sense of expectation to the extent that they begin to claim miraculous healings and so on with very little evidence of anything extraordinary actually happening ...
I've also known plenty of instances of people who apparently got better for a while only to relapse ...
These things are not uncommon in cancers, for instance, and in conditions like MS which often have lengthy remission periods. I know people who believed themselves to have been healed of MS only for the condition to recur.
I also know a Christian physiotherapist who can offer sane and balanced analysis of some of this stuff ... have you noticed how many of the apparent 'cures' tend to be orthopaedic?
Again, these conditions tend to relapse and wax and wane and also apparently clear up quite spontaneously and mysteriously without prayer or the exercise of faith involved.
I suspect we're dealing with 'category errors' rather than outright, blanket deception for the most part.
There's also the influence of the placebo effect - which can be quite powerful, particularly in mass rallies and the like. And the power of suggestibility of course.
In and amongst all of that, I don't doubt that genuine healings do happen from time to time ... but not in the ra-ra-ra way that is so often claimed. Also, like Eutychus, I believe that many of these groups, including Bethel, have a seriously flawed theology. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them nor touch them with a barge-pole.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
...
Thus I can only thank-you Zappa, for stating precisely what it is: "mind fucking" (which is a bona fide technical term originating with Fritz Perls isn't it?).
I think, no_prophet, Zappa, who I have had my disagreements with but still respect, has hit the nail squarely on this one.
What we have in this particular instance and I speak specifically of this one is what appears to be a pure and simple case of deception of the gullible.
As Zappa is an experienced cleric who has worked in Queensland he would know full well how religiously illiterate and psychologically manipulable some people in these parts are and is quite correctly horrified and using apt terminology to describe what is done.
I am not trying to bag any particular branch or form of Christian expression. It is just that 'this sort of thing' seems to have become stock with certain televangelists. These people have been exposed again and again and yet always find sad, hopeless, gullible people to exploit.
This sort of deception brings to mind some of the religious fraud common in the Middle Ages and sent up by the likes of Chaucer.
I hasten to add I am an admirer of certain religious figures of the Middle Ages and Early Modern periods and do believe that very real miracles, beyond normal explanation, happened then as they do now. Bogus 'miracles' occur, touted by charlatans, alongside the real ones.
At Lourdes I believe the medical panel discounts most purported 'miracles'.
I wish that example was followed elsewhere.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!
Some do the snake handling bit though...
From that article
Their faith has been unshaken even when bitten, in fact they consider this an opportunity to prove that God is with them if they survive the bite. Over 100 cases of death by snake bite has been reported among the Christian practitioners of serpent handling.
Death from snake bites can mean to the group that there was a significant lack of congregational prayer and faith for the serpent handler or it may mean that they did not put the serpent down when God commanded them to. It may also signify a punishment for sin.
As with all "Alternative Medicine" the real danger is that gullible folks who need effective treatment will refuse it in order to display their confidence in whatever today's fad may be - I knew a woman who died prematurely of breast cancer because she trusted her spiritual advisor. In my opinion the advisor should have been done for manslaughter - needless to say it was her own fault that she died - nothing to do with the bullshit she was fed (whilst still tithing of course).
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
One of my concerns is it happened in Brisbane. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
One of my concerns is it happened in Brisbane.
Heck, LOTS of things happen in Brisbane. Floods. Landslide election results in unicameral legislatures. You're worried about this now? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
One of my concerns is it happened in Brisbane.
Heck, LOTS of things happen in Brisbane. Floods. Landslide election results in unicameral legislatures. You're worried about this now?
Damn right! (Oops. Naughty word ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ).
It is me demukritik rite as a Queenslander 2 wurri aboat them all.
Whacher gonna do? Take our guns off us? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
That's why we've got Bob Katter. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Whacher gonna do? Take our guns off us?
You mean you've got some left? I thought that all the ones Johnny Howard didn't get were stolen by the gangs in Sydney!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Whacher gonna do? Take our guns off us?
You mean you've got some left? I thought that all the ones Johnny Howard didn't get were stolen by the gangs in Sydney!
What's under our beds is under our beds, right?
At least there are no Reds.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I've seen enough of the well known "name it and claim it" faith healers and the damage they can cause, not to mention the personal judgments/insults thrown my way because I've not been healed to avoid those teachers and mega churches. I've seen miraculous healings so I know God heals - but not on demand and not nearly to the degree some of these churches are claiming. Sadly, in the U.S. the bigger and flashier the churches are and the more well known pastors are the ones that tend to be trusted without question. Bethel is a church that has made spurious claims in the past (multiple people raised from the dead story that was discredited but never acknowledged as untrue) and for some reason many Christians are hesitant to doubt their word on theology.
Interesting, Niteowl2, that you have seen genuine miraculous healings, but have also been judged and found wanting because of not being healed yourself.
I have--because of a friend--been looking into some of this Word of Faith, Name it and Claim it theology and find it very disturbing.
The idea that the atonement brought us not just spiritual salvation but salvation here and now on earth from poverty and disease, if we only name it and claim it, seems not only against all Christian tradition and history; it has terrible effects because if a person names, claims, prays and is still not healed, it is his/her fault because of not enough faith, or whatever. Thus setting up sense of guilt and failure.
Yes, I believe God can heal--it's an intrinsic part of Christian belief from Jesus through the apostles through all the saints of history--but surely it's not something we can take for granted or feel entitled to or demand that God do for us....?
This is still a fallen world.
But, yes--we all want to leave an opening for the work of God, as someone above has said; we don't want to quench the Holy Spirit...so there's room for all sorts of abuse and exploitation.
cara
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Name-it-and-claim-it and Prosperity Gospel style preaching is a form of carcinogenic, fast-food Christianity. One can understand how it originated - during the US Great Depression and among the poor and the marginalised, but that still doesn't make it right.
It can veer into out-and-out heresy too in terms of some of the more bizarre atonement theories it concocts.
As for groups like Bethel - Ramarius will disagree with me but I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and put them beyond the pale too. Perhaps they aren't quite as much 'in error' as the out-and-out name-it-and-claim-it brigade, but they're not far off.
I'm no prophet and this is no 'thus saith the Lord' but I believe we may see some really, really outrageous and 'out-there' stuff coming from Bethel soon.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Name-it-and-claim-it and Prosperity Gospel style preaching is a form of carcinogenic, fast-food Christianity. One can understand how it originated - during the US Great Depression and among the poor and the marginalised, but that still doesn't make it right.
I think it actually dates back before that - the wide open frontier, carve yourself a life out of the wilderness and all that.
You can see it crystallise in the thought of Phineas Quimby and his various followers and gradually bits of it started to be brought into mainstream christianity.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
Interesting, Niteowl2, that you have seen genuine miraculous healings, but have also been judged and found wanting because of not being healed yourself.
I have--because of a friend--been looking into some of this Word of Faith, Name it and Claim it theology and find it very disturbing.
The idea that the atonement brought us not just spiritual salvation but salvation here and now on earth from poverty and disease, if we only name it and claim it, seems not only against all Christian tradition and history; it has terrible effects because if a person names, claims, prays and is still not healed, it is his/her fault because of not enough faith, or whatever. Thus setting up sense of guilt and failure.
Yes, I believe God can heal--it's an intrinsic part of Christian belief from Jesus through the apostles through all the saints of history--but surely it's not something we can take for granted or feel entitled to or demand that God do for us....?
This is still a fallen world.
But, yes--we all want to leave an opening for the work of God, as someone above has said; we don't want to quench the Holy Spirit...so there's room for all sorts of abuse and exploitation.
cara
One of the miraculous healings I saw was of my niece who had most of her skull destroyed with areas of brain turned to mush in an auto accident at 6 months of age. The docs at one of the top trauma centers here were make it up as they went in treating her as no one had survived the type of injury she had. Amazingly, she grew to the age of 4 a happy, fairly normal kid with a few problems like seizures and a problem with chronic fluid build up around the brain. On the morning of her umpteenth surgery the docs were stunned at a complete 100% healing - all well documented. One of the docs had to take the day off. We've had the gift of her life for 37 years. She is now desperately battling cancer and we don't know if this time God will take her home. We never have guarantees.
For me personally, I was fortunate to have been forced to go to a well known prosperity gospel event at a local church when I was in my late teens and I was honestly struggling with the issue of healing and the whole prosperity gospel. At about the same time I felt God tell me I should be seeking only after Him and spiritual wholeness I got picked up out of the pew. I told God if it was what he wanted I'd give it my all. I didn't walk and of course got blamed for my lack of faith. In later years I'd be accused of being filled with Satan or a heretic, etc.etc. but it didn't really bother me as I'd had my word from God and I figured he'd let me know if it changed.
But in many years in missions and other ministry, I've seen people looking for and being promised healing or wealth lose their faith or be emotionally destroyed by Word of Faith ministries when their healing or blessings didn't come and were told it was all their fault. There is much that doesn't line up with scripture within the ministry and much harm, but God still chooses to use it at times. Now that's the miracle.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Toronto Blessing - gold teeth - the little fat man with tattoos - and Benny Hinn always present - I have been wondering what would be next. Teenage miracle-workers?
Laughable if it wasn't so sad.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As for groups like Bethel - Ramarius will disagree with me but I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and put them beyond the pale too. Perhaps they aren't quite as much 'in error' as the out-and-out name-it-and-claim-it brigade, but they're not far off.
I'm no prophet and this is no 'thus saith the Lord' but I believe we may see some really, really outrageous and 'out-there' stuff coming from Bethel soon.
I've already stuck my neck out concerning Bethel on this thread because they've already put some really outrageous stuff out there and have not corrected falsehoods posted on their website.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
quote:
Posted by Ramarius: My experience is the more people you pray for the more have encounters with the Holy Spirit including healing. If you want to see non believers encounter the Holy Spirit you generally need to go and find them on their turf rather than inviting them onto yours. As someone once pointed out to me 'they shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover' is a consequence of 'Go into all the world and preach the good news.'
Ramarius: Do you mean (by your first line) that you get 'better' at praying for healing and the like? Or just the numbers thing, the more people you pray for the more people you've prayed for?
Why does 'encountering the Holy Spirit' have to look like that? When I was an atheist I would have run as fast as I could away from any teenager approaching me in the street and telling me they/God had healed cancer and wanted to pray for me. I'd have wanted evidence, medically verified evidence. I still would and I work for the church. Encounters with the Holy Spirit come in all kinds of manifestations. It's not this way or nothing.
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!
I'm not saying that I believe healings could never happen, I can't quite bring myself to count it out on that one, I think if they do they are exceptionally rare. And people do sometimes get better of their own accord too. It's called an immune system. And the placebo effect works too...and, and, and...
Is this the 'clean, Christian' version of teens going off the deep end and testing boundaries? Why does the Christian life have to involve so much bloody drama? Just get on with it kids. Though I suppose the law of undulation will hit 'em all soon enough.
Blimey I've gotten cynical.
I sort of wish I could believe in it but I think that then sets up God as a God I'd want little to do with.
It's a thinker.
Just numbers Masha. As part of our street evangelism we routinely offer to pray for people. Sometimes that involes prayer for healing. Basically taking the church on the streets. I'm always bowled over (surprised, rather than 'slain in the Spirit' ) how many people are very happy to have you pray for them then and there.
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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