Ship of Fools: Miracles in Brisbane, Australia

Thread: Miracles in Brisbane, Australia Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Tilley (# 13687) on :

Teenagers claim miracle cures.

quote:
The Pentecostal group Culture Shifters says it has healed people suffering from cancer and multiple sclerosis [...]

Children from the group have been approaching people at random on the street, prompting alarm from parents and warnings from doctors for the sick to seek medical attention.

I used to work at a pentecostal school but don't remember any of the teenagers there approaching strangers or performing healings.

Is this something happening in other cities? I'm a bit surprised at the claimed 95% success rate. (Had to check it wasn't a late April Fool's joke.)

For that matter, I wouldn't have had the boldness to offer ministry to anyone at that age but maybe I was very shy, or not sufficiently emboldened by the Holy Spirit. Maybe these young people are amazingly on fire and open to sharing gifts.

There is a link to a YouTube video at that link also.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Let us know if there's any authenticated medical reports.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

There is a trend for this sort of thing now. Bethel in the US have been encouraging it and I know of one or two places in the UK that go in for this sort of thing - all claiming spectacular results that are rarely (if ever) verified.

Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :

I'm not totally inclined to diss this before its been examined a bit more.

I am in a Bethel influenced church and I can say that i have experienced unlikely healing myself -a bad Sciatica healed instantly (on New Years Day) and believe me I know this kind of thing doesnt disappear spontaneously!

However 95% sounds incredibly high in my experience - i suspect it isnt being that rigorously measured.

I think we should take the (biblical) Gamaliel's advice and wait and see if its from God or Man.

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :

I am highly suspicious of the 95% rate.

An experienced pastor I know who has had remarkable healings in his many years of ministry said that the rate is more like 10%...

Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :

Young people in church, practicing their faith in Christ, some people (if not 95%) getting healed, a buzz about Jesus down under - lots there to be grateful for.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Young and impressionable people who could get very hurt and disillusioned by this if it all goes pear-shaped and the putative results do not transpire.

Young people who could potentially lose their faith in Christ if this all turns out to be moonshine.

Some people getting healed (yet to be verified).

A buzz about Jesus Down-Under that could end up with people distrusting Christians and the Church if they find these claims are (to use a phrase Eutychus dislikes) over-egged ...

Lots there to be concerned about.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Who is Bethel please?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

It's a charismatic church/group of churches based in California and led by a guy called Bill Johnson. It's quite influential in some circles but also quite controversial.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I'd be a lot more impressed if these young people were serving soup to down-and-outs, helping their neighbours, sharing the love of Christ in practical ways with those around them - which may or may not include healing.

It seems to me that whenever there is an inveterate focus on these sort of things, claims of supernatural happenings and so on and so forth that it all ends in tears - or else rapid adjustments of the original claims.

I don't doubt that these things sometimes happen - I'm neither inveterately 'liberal' with a belief in a non-interventionist God, nor conservatively 'cessationist' with a belief that these things should be confined to the pages of the New Testament.

But the idea that there's always going to be a 'new thing' or a 'new phase' or an increase in signs and wonders and what-have-you I find very unpalatable. The rhetoric always belies the reality.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
I'm not totally inclined to diss this before its been examined a bit more.

I'm sorry but this is exactly wrong. For extraordinary claims, the burden of proof is on those claiming the extraordinary, not on those claiming it's rubbish.

Bethel and its ilk have form (see here and here (the context is relevant too but this is the bit where I check the story)) on posting extravagant claims and failing to retract them properly even when they are proven to be false. The absence of the miraculous runs counter to the major premise of their "Kingdom Now" theology, so not only is there no incentive to disprove it, there is no place for its absence in their worldview.

I believe in contemporary miraculous healing, but I don't believe it's any more present in groups where this much noise is made about it, and quite possibly less, than elsewhere. It's a sign and a token of exceptional grace, and not an entitlement or an eschatalogical imperative.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Absolutely. Go Eutychus, go, go, go ...

Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :

My experience is the more people you pray for the more have encounters with the Holy Spirit including healing. If you want to see non believers encounter the Holy Spirit you generally need to go and find them on their turf rather than inviting them onto yours. As someone once pointed out to me 'they shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover' is a consequence of 'Go into all the world and preach the good news.'

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :

quote:
Posted by Ramarius: My experience is the more people you pray for the more have encounters with the Holy Spirit including healing. If you want to see non believers encounter the Holy Spirit you generally need to go and find them on their turf rather than inviting them onto yours. As someone once pointed out to me 'they shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover' is a consequence of 'Go into all the world and preach the good news.'

Ramarius: Do you mean (by your first line) that you get 'better' at praying for healing and the like? Or just the numbers thing, the more people you pray for the more people you've prayed for?

Why does 'encountering the Holy Spirit' have to look like that? When I was an atheist I would have run as fast as I could away from any teenager approaching me in the street and telling me they/God had healed cancer and wanted to pray for me. I'd have wanted evidence, medically verified evidence. I still would and I work for the church. Encounters with the Holy Spirit come in all kinds of manifestations. It's not this way or nothing.

Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!

I'm not saying that I believe healings could never happen, I can't quite bring myself to count it out on that one, I think if they do they are exceptionally rare. And people do sometimes get better of their own accord too. It's called an immune system. And the placebo effect works too...and, and, and...

Is this the 'clean, Christian' version of teens going off the deep end and testing boundaries? Why does the Christian life have to involve so much bloody drama? Just get on with it kids. Though I suppose the law of undulation will hit 'em all soon enough.

Blimey I've gotten cynical.

I sort of wish I could believe in it but I think that then sets up God as a God I'd want little to do with.

It's a thinker.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!

Some do the snake handling bit though...

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tilley:
Teenagers claim miracle cures.
There is a link to a YouTube video at that link also.

The top link is inconclusive to say the least.

I am really trying hard to get into the bottom one, which is 51:56 long [Eek!]

but I have to say that when the "incredible man of God" [sic] says at 1:40

quote:
I'm a typical pastor, which means that we don't get paid a lot of money so God gives us a hot wife

it did not inspire me to press on.

[ 15. April 2012, 19:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
I'm a typical pastor, which means that we don't get paid a lot of money so God gives us a hot wife
it did not inspire me to press on.

Are you denying that your wife is hot, Eutychus? [Eek!]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

It's relatively easy, Ramarius. It's called suggestibility. You go around enough people laying hands on them and you'll soon enough find people who'll go along with your expectations.

You could use that argument to justify anything.

If the JWs and Mormons knock on enough people's doors they'll find sufficiently vulnerable people who are likely to join their Bible study groups and what-have-you sooner or later.

It's the same with this 'prayer ministry' and 'healing on the streets' stuff. You go around doing that enough times and you'll find people who'll go along with it - and it'll even look pretty convincing for a while.

Some of it might be, but there'll be lots of collateral damage along the way.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Au contraire.

However, the hotness of my wife is not something I tend to vaunt from the platform. But you already knew that.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

It's Derren Brown stuff. He goes around doing this sort of thing all the time. Anyone can do it.

I used to go around laying hands on people during the 'Toronto Blessing' thing and they'd fall over on cue. Why? Because the expectation had been created that this is what would happen.

I can think of one or two occasions that may have been more mysterious and spontaneous than that, but on the whole I'm now convinced that it was 'learned behaviour' and responses to subtle (or not so subtle) cues. Not in every instance, but enough to give me pause.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I can think of one or two occasions that may have been more mysterious and spontaneous than that, but on the whole I'm now convinced that it was 'learned behaviour' and responses to subtle (or not so subtle) cues. Not in every instance, but enough to give me pause.

Yep, I would tend to agree with you on the relative frequency that such things were genuine. You might find the following of interest (from a former Pentecostal evangelist):

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/marjoe.htm

""I lecture in about twenty colleges a year," he began, "and I do a faith-healing demonstration -- but I always make them ask for it. I tell them that I don't believe in it, that I use a lot of tricks; the title of the lecture is 'Rhetoric and Charisma,' so I've already told them the whole rap explaining how it's done, but they still want to see it. So I throw it all right back at them. I say, 'No, you don't really want to see it.' And they say, 'Oh, yes. We do. We do!' And I say, 'But you don't believe in it anyway, so I can't do it.' And they say, 'We believe. We believe!' So after about twenty minutes of this I ask for a volunteer, and I have a girl come up and I say, 'So you want to feel better?' And I say, 'You're lying to me! You're just up here for a good time and you want to impress all these people and you want to make an ass out of me and an ass out of this whole thing, so why don't you just go back and sit down?' I get really hard on her, and she says, 'No, no, I believe!' And I keep going back and forth until she's almost in tears. And then, even though this is in a college crowd and I'm only doing it as a joke, I just say my same old line, In the name of Jesus! and touch them on the head, and wham, they fall down flat every time.""

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Well, I've seen it done with a lot less 'working up' than that ...

But you're right, it's relatively easy to work this sort of thing up. In an atmosphere where people are already suggestible, it's a breeze, a cinch ...

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Young and impressionable people who could get very hurt and disillusioned by this if it all goes pear-shaped and the putative results do not transpire.

At the moment I am working closely with (yet) another young adult who has been screwed by Bethel. For a couple of years now she has been heading off to be slammed, burned, thwackoed and otherwise baveroovied by the Holy Spirit twice a week. She is now sliding into deep clinical depression because the Holy Spirit is no longer doing what she wants Her to do.

I'm trying to be patient. What I want to say is 'these guys have fucked your mind'.

Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :

Derren Brown did quite an interesting special when he set up an unknown as a faith healer which included a section on healing on the streets.

Its perhaps not remembered that a Christian group partnered Derren Brown to make sure it was convincing, as part of an expose of 'fake' healers.

I take the point that the power of autosuggestion and learned behaviour is strong, and DB showed how it occurs, but i would say i'm aware of this factor. I know what Cold Reading is - although i dont detect it in my Church , but i have in others. I generally try NOT to fall over when prayed for - but its about even money that i do - I dont ever know why!

Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!

I dont know any Greek , or any Greek scholars but I bet that part and the snake handling bit are in the passive - ie just something that happens to you in daily life, and you dont go out looking for it ! That said the only person i have heard of doing this is Rasputin!

The laying on of hands seems to be an active part of the call, to be 'gone out and done' so i think they are in a slightly different class.

True linguists - come and prove me wrong!

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I don't pretend to understand the falling-over thing, but my suspicion is that it gets 'anchored' somehow as a form of repetitive behaviour after a while, in a somewhat Pavlovian manner. That said, I wouldn't dismiss every single instance of it I've seen or experienced.

Ultimately, though, I'm not sure it's any big deal whether it happens or doesn't happen.

As for Rasputin and drinking poison ... well, historians these days are generally of the view that his killers exaggerated his apparent resilience and ability to survive plying with poison and being shot several times in order to make him appear more evil and mysterious and their own actions the more justifiable. Apparently it seems that he was simply shot and fell down just like anyone else ...

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!

Some do the snake handling bit though...

And the poison drinking

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :

The poison line was just a joke, and I get that the passage doesn't mean it at face value! Though I'd not be surprised if some did try.
I suppose it'd be one way to prove you had faith...

Having said that, I've drunk some pretty questionable stuff in my time so who am I to judge?

[ 15. April 2012, 22:41: Message edited by: Masha ]

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

There are miracles happening in Brisbane?

Why wasn't I told?

[Killing me]

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

I'm one of those who presently finds this sort of thing deeply offensive. I have limited exposure to Pentecostal churches, and have nothing whatsoever against them.

It is when people believe they are channelling God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit such that they are directly involved in the miracles. None of us can claim this. And if you can, and it is true, then God is my enemy because he chose you and forgot and ignored us in our time of peril. The Holy Spirit having fled from all of us outside of your circle.

Thus I can only thank-you Zappa, for stating precisely what it is: "mind fucking" (which is a bona fide technical term originating with Fritz Perls isn't it?). [Overused]

Posted by savedbyhim01 (# 17035) on :

I've always struggled a bit with what to think about these kinds of reports. On the one side God is powerful and He can choose to heal anyone at anytime. On the other hand, I've heard of so many times when these kinds of things were fabricated that it makes me a little gun shy. I agree that the burden of proof is on the ones making the claims. However, I wouldn't "disbelieve" it until I had all of the details.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
The poison line was just a joke, and I get that the passage doesn't mean it at face value! Though I'd not be surprised if some did try.
I suppose it'd be one way to prove you had faith...

Having said that, I've drunk some pretty questionable stuff in my time so who am I to judge?

I believe they drink strychnine. I've only read about it. Frankly, drinking poison impressed me more than handling snakes.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by savedbyhim01:
I agree that the burden of proof is on the ones making the claims. However, I wouldn't "disbelieve" it until I had all of the details.

But this is how these people end up perpetrating spiritual seduction. Inadvertently or otherwise, they capitalise on other christians' innate disposition to be nice and their innate sense of guilt that they might be found to be speaking against the work of God.

Into that benefit of the doubt they drive a whole truckload of bad theology, bad expectations and bad practice that is giving people like Zappa far too much work.

It's not rocket science. Jesus says that people who can be entrusted with little can be entrusted with more. These people can't be entrusted with basic record-keeping and fact-checking. I somehow don't think they're going to be wielding much healing power.

Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on :

Eutychus said:

quote:
I believe in contemporary miraculous healing, but I don't believe it's any more present in groups where this much noise is made about it, and quite possibly less, than elsewhere. It's a sign and a token of exceptional grace, and not an entitlement or an eschatalogical imperative.

Amen to that !

My impression is that those organisations who make the most noise about healings and other manifestations of God's grace, are to be avoided.

The work of God seems, to me, to happen very quietly (but no less powerfully) and in often very mundane ways. Like Gamaliel said, running a soup kitchen for the homeless, or an OAP visiting service.

Often , and this is the saddest thing, people are looking for (they were in Jesus' day) glitzzy signs and wonders. I would be concerned for these young people that when the ''bubble bursts'' many will be hurt and may even reject Christ.

Saul

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

I've seen enough of the well known "name it and claim it" faith healers and the damage they can cause, not to mention the personal judgments/insults thrown my way because I've not been healed to avoid those teachers and mega churches. I've seen miraculous healings so I know God heals - but not on demand and not nearly to the degree some of these churches are claiming. Sadly, in the U.S. the bigger and flashier the churches are and the more well known pastors are the ones that tend to be trusted without question. Bethel is a church that has made spurious claims in the past (multiple people raised from the dead story that was discredited but never acknowledged as untrue) and for some reason many Christians are hesitant to doubt their word on theology.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

@Savedbyhim01, I'm not sure I've heard or seen much by way of out-and-out fabrication, but in my experience these groups are lured into a heightened sense of expectation to the extent that they begin to claim miraculous healings and so on with very little evidence of anything extraordinary actually happening ...

I've also known plenty of instances of people who apparently got better for a while only to relapse ...

These things are not uncommon in cancers, for instance, and in conditions like MS which often have lengthy remission periods. I know people who believed themselves to have been healed of MS only for the condition to recur.

I also know a Christian physiotherapist who can offer sane and balanced analysis of some of this stuff ... have you noticed how many of the apparent 'cures' tend to be orthopaedic?

Again, these conditions tend to relapse and wax and wane and also apparently clear up quite spontaneously and mysteriously without prayer or the exercise of faith involved.

I suspect we're dealing with 'category errors' rather than outright, blanket deception for the most part.

There's also the influence of the placebo effect - which can be quite powerful, particularly in mass rallies and the like. And the power of suggestibility of course.

In and amongst all of that, I don't doubt that genuine healings do happen from time to time ... but not in the ra-ra-ra way that is so often claimed. Also, like Eutychus, I believe that many of these groups, including Bethel, have a seriously flawed theology. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them nor touch them with a barge-pole.

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
...
Thus I can only thank-you Zappa, for stating precisely what it is: "mind fucking" (which is a bona fide technical term originating with Fritz Perls isn't it?).

I think, no_prophet, Zappa, who I have had my disagreements with but still respect, has hit the nail squarely on this one.

What we have in this particular instance and I speak specifically of this one is what appears to be a pure and simple case of deception of the gullible.

As Zappa is an experienced cleric who has worked in Queensland he would know full well how religiously illiterate and psychologically manipulable some people in these parts are and is quite correctly horrified and using apt terminology to describe what is done.

I am not trying to bag any particular branch or form of Christian expression. It is just that 'this sort of thing' seems to have become stock with certain televangelists. These people have been exposed again and again and yet always find sad, hopeless, gullible people to exploit.

This sort of deception brings to mind some of the religious fraud common in the Middle Ages and sent up by the likes of Chaucer.

I hasten to add I am an admirer of certain religious figures of the Middle Ages and Early Modern periods and do believe that very real miracles, beyond normal explanation, happened then as they do now. Bogus 'miracles' occur, touted by charlatans, alongside the real ones.

At Lourdes I believe the medical panel discounts most purported 'miracles'.

I wish that example was followed elsewhere.

[Votive]

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!

Some do the snake handling bit though...

From that article
Their faith has been unshaken even when bitten, in fact they consider this an opportunity to prove that God is with them if they survive the bite. Over 100 cases of death by snake bite has been reported among the Christian practitioners of serpent handling.

Death from snake bites can mean to the group that there was a significant lack of congregational prayer and faith for the serpent handler or it may mean that they did not put the serpent down when God commanded them to. It may also signify a punishment for sin.

As with all "Alternative Medicine" the real danger is that gullible folks who need effective treatment will refuse it in order to display their confidence in whatever today's fad may be - I knew a woman who died prematurely of breast cancer because she trusted her spiritual advisor. In my opinion the advisor should have been done for manslaughter - needless to say it was her own fault that she died - nothing to do with the bullshit she was fed (whilst still tithing of course).

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

One of my concerns is it happened in Brisbane. [Help]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
One of my concerns is it happened in Brisbane.

Heck, LOTS of things happen in Brisbane. Floods. Landslide election results in unicameral legislatures. You're worried about this now? [Big Grin]

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
One of my concerns is it happened in Brisbane.
Heck, LOTS of things happen in Brisbane. Floods. Landslide election results in unicameral legislatures. You're worried about this now?

Damn right! (Oops. Naughty word [Hot and Hormonal]

).

It is me demukritik rite as a Queenslander 2 wurri aboat them all. [Killing me]

Whacher gonna do? Take our guns off us? [Paranoid]

That's why we've got Bob Katter. [Two face]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Whacher gonna do? Take our guns off us?

You mean you've got some left? I thought that all the ones Johnny Howard didn't get were stolen by the gangs in Sydney!

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Whacher gonna do? Take our guns off us?

You mean you've got some left? I thought that all the ones Johnny Howard didn't get were stolen by the gangs in Sydney!

What's under our beds is under our beds, right?

At least there are no Reds.
[Paranoid]

Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I've seen enough of the well known "name it and claim it" faith healers and the damage they can cause, not to mention the personal judgments/insults thrown my way because I've not been healed to avoid those teachers and mega churches. I've seen miraculous healings so I know God heals - but not on demand and not nearly to the degree some of these churches are claiming. Sadly, in the U.S. the bigger and flashier the churches are and the more well known pastors are the ones that tend to be trusted without question. Bethel is a church that has made spurious claims in the past (multiple people raised from the dead story that was discredited but never acknowledged as untrue) and for some reason many Christians are hesitant to doubt their word on theology.

Interesting, Niteowl2, that you have seen genuine miraculous healings, but have also been judged and found wanting because of not being healed yourself.
I have--because of a friend--been looking into some of this Word of Faith, Name it and Claim it theology and find it very disturbing.

The idea that the atonement brought us not just spiritual salvation but salvation here and now on earth from poverty and disease, if we only name it and claim it, seems not only against all Christian tradition and history; it has terrible effects because if a person names, claims, prays and is still not healed, it is his/her fault because of not enough faith, or whatever. Thus setting up sense of guilt and failure.

Yes, I believe God can heal--it's an intrinsic part of Christian belief from Jesus through the apostles through all the saints of history--but surely it's not something we can take for granted or feel entitled to or demand that God do for us....?

This is still a fallen world.

But, yes--we all want to leave an opening for the work of God, as someone above has said; we don't want to quench the Holy Spirit...so there's room for all sorts of abuse and exploitation.

cara

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Name-it-and-claim-it and Prosperity Gospel style preaching is a form of carcinogenic, fast-food Christianity. One can understand how it originated - during the US Great Depression and among the poor and the marginalised, but that still doesn't make it right.

It can veer into out-and-out heresy too in terms of some of the more bizarre atonement theories it concocts.

As for groups like Bethel - Ramarius will disagree with me but I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and put them beyond the pale too. Perhaps they aren't quite as much 'in error' as the out-and-out name-it-and-claim-it brigade, but they're not far off.

I'm no prophet and this is no 'thus saith the Lord' but I believe we may see some really, really outrageous and 'out-there' stuff coming from Bethel soon.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Name-it-and-claim-it and Prosperity Gospel style preaching is a form of carcinogenic, fast-food Christianity. One can understand how it originated - during the US Great Depression and among the poor and the marginalised, but that still doesn't make it right.

I think it actually dates back before that - the wide open frontier, carve yourself a life out of the wilderness and all that.

You can see it crystallise in the thought of Phineas Quimby and his various followers and gradually bits of it started to be brought into mainstream christianity.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
Interesting, Niteowl2, that you have seen genuine miraculous healings, but have also been judged and found wanting because of not being healed yourself.
I have--because of a friend--been looking into some of this Word of Faith, Name it and Claim it theology and find it very disturbing.

The idea that the atonement brought us not just spiritual salvation but salvation here and now on earth from poverty and disease, if we only name it and claim it, seems not only against all Christian tradition and history; it has terrible effects because if a person names, claims, prays and is still not healed, it is his/her fault because of not enough faith, or whatever. Thus setting up sense of guilt and failure.

Yes, I believe God can heal--it's an intrinsic part of Christian belief from Jesus through the apostles through all the saints of history--but surely it's not something we can take for granted or feel entitled to or demand that God do for us....?

This is still a fallen world.

But, yes--we all want to leave an opening for the work of God, as someone above has said; we don't want to quench the Holy Spirit...so there's room for all sorts of abuse and exploitation.

cara

One of the miraculous healings I saw was of my niece who had most of her skull destroyed with areas of brain turned to mush in an auto accident at 6 months of age. The docs at one of the top trauma centers here were make it up as they went in treating her as no one had survived the type of injury she had. Amazingly, she grew to the age of 4 a happy, fairly normal kid with a few problems like seizures and a problem with chronic fluid build up around the brain. On the morning of her umpteenth surgery the docs were stunned at a complete 100% healing - all well documented. One of the docs had to take the day off. We've had the gift of her life for 37 years. She is now desperately battling cancer and we don't know if this time God will take her home. We never have guarantees.

For me personally, I was fortunate to have been forced to go to a well known prosperity gospel event at a local church when I was in my late teens and I was honestly struggling with the issue of healing and the whole prosperity gospel. At about the same time I felt God tell me I should be seeking only after Him and spiritual wholeness I got picked up out of the pew. I told God if it was what he wanted I'd give it my all. I didn't walk and of course got blamed for my lack of faith. In later years I'd be accused of being filled with Satan or a heretic, etc.etc. but it didn't really bother me as I'd had my word from God and I figured he'd let me know if it changed.

But in many years in missions and other ministry, I've seen people looking for and being promised healing or wealth lose their faith or be emotionally destroyed by Word of Faith ministries when their healing or blessings didn't come and were told it was all their fault. There is much that doesn't line up with scripture within the ministry and much harm, but God still chooses to use it at times. Now that's the miracle.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

Toronto Blessing - gold teeth - the little fat man with tattoos - and Benny Hinn always present - I have been wondering what would be next. Teenage miracle-workers?
Laughable if it wasn't so sad.
[brick wall]

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

As for groups like Bethel - Ramarius will disagree with me but I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and put them beyond the pale too. Perhaps they aren't quite as much 'in error' as the out-and-out name-it-and-claim-it brigade, but they're not far off.

I'm no prophet and this is no 'thus saith the Lord' but I believe we may see some really, really outrageous and 'out-there' stuff coming from Bethel soon.

I've already stuck my neck out concerning Bethel on this thread because they've already put some really outrageous stuff out there and have not corrected falsehoods posted on their website.

Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Masha:

quote:
Posted by Ramarius: My experience is the more people you pray for the more have encounters with the Holy Spirit including healing. If you want to see non believers encounter the Holy Spirit you generally need to go and find them on their turf rather than inviting them onto yours. As someone once pointed out to me 'they shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover' is a consequence of 'Go into all the world and preach the good news.'
Ramarius: Do you mean (by your first line) that you get 'better' at praying for healing and the like? Or just the numbers thing, the more people you pray for the more people you've prayed for?

Why does 'encountering the Holy Spirit' have to look like that? When I was an atheist I would have run as fast as I could away from any teenager approaching me in the street and telling me they/God had healed cancer and wanted to pray for me. I'd have wanted evidence, medically verified evidence. I still would and I work for the church. Encounters with the Holy Spirit come in all kinds of manifestations. It's not this way or nothing.

Funny how nobody tests out the drinking poison bit of that section isn't it?!

I'm not saying that I believe healings could never happen, I can't quite bring myself to count it out on that one, I think if they do they are exceptionally rare. And people do sometimes get better of their own accord too. It's called an immune system. And the placebo effect works too...and, and, and...

Is this the 'clean, Christian' version of teens going off the deep end and testing boundaries? Why does the Christian life have to involve so much bloody drama? Just get on with it kids. Though I suppose the law of undulation will hit 'em all soon enough.

Blimey I've gotten cynical.

I sort of wish I could believe in it but I think that then sets up God as a God I'd want little to do with.

It's a thinker.

Just numbers Masha. As part of our street evangelism we routinely offer to pray for people. Sometimes that involes prayer for healing. Basically taking the church on the streets. I'm always bowled over (surprised, rather than 'slain in the Spirit' ) how many people are very happy to have you pray for them then and there.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I'm always bowled over (surprised, rather than 'slain in the Spirit' ) how many people are very happy to have you pray for them then and there.

On this we can agree.

However, there is a big leap from "sharing the message of God's love and praying for people on the streets" to claiming restored vision, cancer healing, and a 95% success rate, all of which are claimed by the article linked to in the OP. Is there not?

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Toronto Blessing - gold teeth - the little fat man with tattoos - and Benny Hinn always present - I have been wondering what would be next. Teenage miracle-workers?
Laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Who is the little fat man with tattoos? All the others I recognise.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Todd Bentley.

And I claim my £5.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

He's back? And people still believe him?

[Paranoid]

Ian J.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

He appears to be on a tour of South Korea right now, but he is only tangentially related to this thread.

Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :

quote:
Ramarius: Just numbers Masha. As part of our street evangelism we routinely offer to pray for people. Sometimes that involes prayer for healing. Basically taking the church on the streets. I'm always bowled over (surprised, rather than 'slain in the Spirit' ) how many people are very happy to have you pray for them then and there.

I now have a mental image of some bloke falling over every time someone agrees to be prayed for! [Smile]

It's great that people are receptive to talk of God and prayer though.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Name-it-and-claim-it and Prosperity Gospel style preaching is a form of carcinogenic, fast-food Christianity. One can understand how it originated - during the US Great Depression and among the poor and the marginalised, but that still doesn't make it right.
I think it actually dates back before that - the wide open frontier, carve yourself a life out of the wilderness and all that.

You can see it crystallise in the thought of Phineas Quimby and his various followers and gradually bits of it started to be brought into mainstream christianity.

Quimby influenced Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science. The father of the Word of Faith movement is E.W. Kenyon who lived from 1867-1948. Kenyon influenced Kenneth Hagin. By influence, I mean Haggin plagiarized Kenyon. Haggin along with Oral Roberts inspired a generation of Worth Faith teachers such as Kenneth Copeland.

I'm trying to remember what influence if any Quimby had on Kenyon. I think Kenyon was influenced by the whole New Though philosophy but took it in a different direction. Word of Faith preachers don't deny sickness exists. I've never known a prominent one to say don't go to doctors or take medicine. Rather, Word of Faith teaches that healing is covered by the atonement and if Christians just have enough faith they can be healed and not only healed but they will never even get sick.

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

Well, after all this illumination, false miracles still abound.

To me it is a sign that many folk lack discernment.

The sad thing is that I believe many 'healers' believe their own PR.

Now that is really wacky.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I'm trying to remember what influence if any Quimby had on Kenyon. I think Kenyon was influenced by the whole New Though philosophy but took it in a different direction.

Well, Kenyon studied at Emerson college - which at the time had a reasonable amount of New Thought influence floating around.

quote:

Word of Faith preachers don't deny sickness exists. I've never known a prominent one to say don't go to doctors or take medicine. Rather, Word of Faith teaches that healing is covered by the atonement and if Christians just have enough faith they can be healed and not only healed but they will never even get sick.

Well, whilst they don't deny sickness in and of itself, there are a fair number of them who believe that we only ever get sick because we think about sickness (and we only ever die because we think about death and say things like "I'm dying to do X" at the loonier end of the spectrum)

Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:

One of the miraculous healings I saw was of my niece who had most of her skull destroyed with areas of brain turned to mush in an auto accident at 6 months of age. The docs at one of the top trauma centers here were make it up as they went in treating her as no one had survived the type of injury she had. Amazingly, she grew to the age of 4 a happy, fairly normal kid with a few problems like seizures and a problem with chronic fluid build up around the brain. On the morning of her umpteenth surgery the docs were stunned at a complete 100% healing - all well documented. One of the docs had to take the day off. We've had the gift of her life for 37 years. She is now desperately battling cancer and we don't know if this time God will take her home. We never have guarantees.

For me personally, I was fortunate to have been forced to go to a well known prosperity gospel event at a local church when I was in my late teens and I was honestly struggling with the issue of healing and the whole prosperity gospel. At about the same time I felt God tell me I should be seeking only after Him and spiritual wholeness I got picked up out of the pew. I told God if it was what he wanted I'd give it my all. I didn't walk and of course got blamed for my lack of faith. In later years I'd be accused of being filled with Satan or a heretic, etc.etc. but it didn't really bother me as I'd had my word from God and I figured he'd let me know if it changed.

But in many years in missions and other ministry, I've seen people looking for and being promised healing or wealth lose their faith or be emotionally destroyed by Word of Faith ministries when their healing or blessings didn't come and were told it was all their fault. There is much that doesn't line up with scripture within the ministry and much harm, but God still chooses to use it at times. Now that's the miracle.

Wow niteowl2, the childhood healing of your niece is an extraordinary story.
My prayers for her and family now.

And your own experience at the event where, if I've understood correctly, you were "picked"--urged by the organizers??--to leave your pew and walk forward but you had a strong message from God that that wasn't wanted or necessary so "didn't walk..." Interesting, and a powerful testimony, that your trust in what God had communicated to you was far stronger, then and subsequently, than all the accusations of not having faith etc....

yes, your last paragraph illustrates the dark side of these ministries--emotional damage when healings etc don't come...sounds as if you've seen this at close quarters....it's why i fear for my friend.

cara

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[ 19. April 2012, 23:55: Message edited by: John Holding ]

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :

I think it's that old wheat and tares scene, cara.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cara:

Wow niteowl2, the childhood healing of your niece is an extraordinary story.
My prayers for her and family now.

Thank you, they are needed.

quote:
Originally posted by Cara:

And your own experience at the event where, if I've understood correctly, you were "picked"--urged by the organizers??--to leave your pew and walk forward but you had a strong message from God that that wasn't wanted or necessary so "didn't walk..." Interesting, and a powerful testimony, that your trust in what God had communicated to you was far stronger, then and subsequently, than all the accusations of not having faith etc....

yes, your last paragraph illustrates the dark side of these ministries--emotional damage when healings etc don't come...sounds as if you've seen this at close quarters....it's why i fear for my friend.

cara

I was sitting in the pew with my wheelchair folded up in the aisle next to me. Just as I felt God speak to me I became aware of the speaker asking about the "person in the wheelchair" and clueless me didn't get that it was me until 2 ushers literally picked me up out of the pew and dragged me into the aisle where I was expected to be healed - "if I had faith". I was open to whatever God wanted but it became apparent after a few very long minutes that what God had told me moments before being yanked out of the pew was the final word at that time. The speaker afterward told me my faith wasn't strong enough and when it was I'd be healed. I knew at the time neither my faith or anything else related to me was the problem.

I'll be praying for your friend.

[ 18. April 2012, 08:24: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]

Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I was sitting in the pew with my wheelchair folded up in the aisle next to me. Just as I felt God speak to me I became aware of the speaker asking about the "person in the wheelchair" and clueless me didn't get that it was me until 2 ushers literally picked me up out of the pew and dragged me into the aisle where I was expected to be healed - "if I had faith". I was open to whatever God wanted but it became apparent after a few very long minutes that what God had told me moments before being yanked out of the pew was the final word at that time. The speaker afterward told me my faith wasn't strong enough and when it was I'd be healed. I knew at the time neither my faith or anything else related to me was the problem.

I'll be praying for your friend.

Thanks for the clarification--literally "picked up," ok, I understand it now!
What an experience.

Thanks for the prayers.

cara

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[ 19. April 2012, 23:52: Message edited by: John Holding ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Ramarius, I don't see why it's so surprising that people agree to be prayed for on the street. What's the big deal with that?

Go out door-knocking often enough and people will invite you in for a chat. Ask enough people on the street whether they'd be willing for you to pray for them and you'll get some takers too ...

[Confused]

I really don't get your surprise - nor your excitement - about all this.

Some people are susceptible. Offer to pray for them on the street and they'll accept. Suggest to them that they might be healed and they might say something to indicate that 'something' has happened - they might want to please you, ingratiate themselves with you for whatever reason, they might be lonely, might be attention-seeking ... could be a whole raft of reasons and responses.

I'm not saying it's WRONG to ask people whether you can pray for them. What I am suggesting is that people will tell you all sorts of things in response to an approach like that. In and of itself it doesn't prove anything.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Sorry to double-post, Ramarius, but there's nothing more surprising or 'supernatural' (or even encouraging) about people agreeing to be prayed for on the street than there is in going out with a clip-board and doing surveys on the street for a market-research company or - as I have done - going door-to-door cold-calling for market research purposes.

I could turn around and say, 'And I've been surprised how many people agreed to do the survey ...'

And I'd be right - to an extent.

But I'd also be overlooking the many hundreds of people who politely refuse and either close the door or walk on by.

I'm not saying that there isn't room for street evangelism - just that to a certain extent you're bound to end up dealing with the vulnerable and the - very often - downright odd ... which is fine, provided that you are equipped and prepared for that.

I'm rather ambivalent about the whole 'let's-pray-for-people-on-the-streets-and-perhaps-they'll-be-healed-and-it'll-be-an-effective-means-of-evangelism' thing.

Why? Because it lends itself to Derren Brown-ery. Did you see that thing he did where they approached people on the street and 'prayed' for them and plenty of people acknowledged some form of temporary easing of pain or placebo-style respite?

I'll repeat what I've said before. Anyone can do this and make it look pretty convincing for a time - but longer term the apparent effects don't tend to last. Not in most cases anyway.

Ok, that leaves me wide open to the charge of, 'Well, what are you doing in terms of evangelism instead?' To which I would hold up my hands and say, 'Not a lot ...'

But I've prayed with people on the street for healing before now - long before it became de-rigeur to do so. On each occasion that I can remember, the person had something significantly and visibly 'wrong' with them. And guess what? Nothing happened. They weren't healed at all - at least, not as far as I'm aware.

What should I have done? Persisted in doing this stuff until I 'got it right' or 'learned' how to do it properly, as if praying for healing is some kind of 'skill' that comes with practice?

I'm not convinced that it is something we can 'learn' or be trained to do. And any form of training or instruction in this sort of thing will inevitably, in my view, lead to the kind of Derren Brown-ery I've alluded to or to a self-fulfilling prophecy approach of reading results into situations where there may not be any ...

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Let us know if there's any authenticated medical reports.

Presumably if a deaf person can now hear and a blind girl see, these must the easiest things to authenticate, and consquently plastered all over the media complete with baffled medical people shaking their heads in wonder.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

My niece who was miraculously healed died of cancer this afternoon. We were given a gift of 37 years and she lived life to the fullest.

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

[Frown]

Posted by Nenuphar (# 16057) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

[Votive]

May she rest in peace and rise in glory and may light eternal shine upon her.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

May I add my belated condolences, Niteowl.

[Votive]

I guess this is a sobering reminder that, whatever healing may take place in this life, it is of necessity temporary. Even Lazarus ended up dying one day.

I'm back posting here because I've just received an e-mail from the journalist whose article and video is linked to in the OP.

In the interests of fairness (and with his permission) I reproduce the body of the e-mail in full, but I'd particularly like to highlight the specific case brought up in the OP, the initial sense of something miraculous having happened and the longer-term result (or lack of it).

I think people engaging in this type of ministry need to be aware of these factors and honest in how they approach them.

quote:
In terms of my personal case, the eyesight in my right eye has not noticeably improved since the healing. The youth pastor at that church wanted to follow up with me for another prayer session but unfortunately I was unavailable.

The group claims to have documentary evidence of their miracles and have started a new website since the media reports, I believe in part to help substantiate their claims. It can be found here: http://miraclesaustralia.com.au/

For what it's worth, one very interesting thing the youth pastor said was that in his experience the healing and prayer sessions worked better on non-believers than believers.

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

<sigh>
I am sorry Niteowl2.

Having reviewed the linked website linked, I see nothing that I would call miraculous.
For example, the osteoporosis responed to a drug Fosamax, which is designed to treat osteoporosis.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

"it has terrible effects because if a person names, claims, prays and is still not healed, it is his/her fault because of not enough faith, or whatever. Thus setting up sense of guilt and failure."

Not always.

To be fair to Bethel/Bill Johnson as I understand his position, he states sometimes we do all we know to do and it doesn't work. He believes in 'mysteries' where in theory (according to their theology) we should see healings but we get nothing and we can't figure out why.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
To be fair to Bethel/Bill Johnson as I understand his position, he states sometimes we do all we know to do and it doesn't work. He believes in 'mysteries' where in theory (according to their theology) we should see healings but we get nothing and we can't figure out why.

He can't figure out why because this doesn't lead him to call into question his theology, according to which healing is a recipe that should "work".

The trouble is that the fallout in this case is not so many sunken cakes, but unhealed people who have been led to expect healing.

Like other "healing ministries", Bethel's whole offering is built around a definite expectation of healing. As far as I can make out, they believe it is part of normal, christian, kingdom experience. They may not explicitly blame unhealed people's lack of faith and so on, but such people will certainly find it easy to think that on the basis of their teaching.

They have mistaken a sign for a goal and they have no qualms sorcerers'-apprenticing around with people trying to achieve that goal. They also have no qualms about evading the truth when their extravagant claims of healing turn out to be unfounded (see the link in my first post on this thread). They prefer to duck the evidence so that it doesn't interfere with their healing message. That's leading people into unreality.

Not only that, but by gaining a platform not only in places like God TV but also, in the past, New Wine, they have bought themselves some credibility that is encouraging other bits of christendom to follow suit.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

Someone mentioned above that New Wine are distancing themselves from Bethel. Is there any tangible evidence of this?

K.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

It was mentioned in a Hell thread, here, and I seem to recall anecdotal evidence of Johnson being decried by one of the resident heavyweights, but no evidence was actually forthcoming. New Wine is about as alien to my current circumstances as Bethel.

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