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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why?
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Why did God create the universe?
I don't think religion really answers this question. At least Christianity doesn't seem to. We were created and it was good and we had a job to do keeping the Garden but God doesn't really need us to keep the Garden.
I know it's an impossible question but I'm interested in your thoughts cos you're a thoughtful, insightful bunch.
It's a question that recurrently bugs the hell out of me.
Why did God create you?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Lord Clonk
Shipmate
# 13205
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Posted
For what it's worth, I suspect that if God exists, it's nevertheless unlikely for It to have been what 'created' the universe.
[ 16. April 2012, 15:02: Message edited by: Lord Clonk ]
Posts: 267 | From: Glasgow | Registered: Nov 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why did God create the universe?
He has a great love of vast, empty spaces (and an inordinate fondness for beetles).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Why does an artist paint a picture, a composer write a sonata, a craftsman make an elegant chair? Because it's exhilarating. And a Bigness like God could take a lot of stimulation.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why did God create you?
Because he thought I was damned interesting.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why did God create the universe?
I don't think religion really answers this question. At least Christianity doesn't seem to. We were created and it was good and we had a job to do keeping the Garden but God doesn't really need us to keep the Garden.
I know it's an impossible question but I'm interested in your thoughts cos you're a thoughtful, insightful bunch.
It's a question that recurrently bugs the hell out of me.
Why did God create you?
For the same reason that any parent has a child... loneliness, boredom, because they can, because they really hate having money and free time to spare. Maybe in a vain attempt to salvage a relationship (which raises other questions).
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
It's possible to give many answers, most of them facetious or silly:
God created the universe as a 7th-grade science project. (What was the grade?)
God created the universe as an act of rebellion after someone told him not to.
God decided to build himself a toy.
God was lonely and wanted to create sentient beings who might in time evolve to be interesting companions.
It was unavoidably in the nature of God to create the universe.
Our universe is actually the beta-test model of the planned universe.
Our universe actually exists only as a dream within God's mind.
As I said, silly. We don't know the answer. As with some many other such questions: wait a short period of time and ask God in person.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I would say that God created us to have someone to love and provide for. The same reason I had my children.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Because He is Love. And you can't love nothing.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Jonathan Strange
Shipmate
# 11001
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Posted
Because it was(n't) there.
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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"
Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Because He is Love. And you can't love nothing.
Any chance of expanding on this? I have no idea what it might mean to identify an apparently personal being as being equivalent to or interchangeable with an emotion/feeling/state of mind.
I also can't escape the thought that you're saying God didn't exist until He created something.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I think the answer can partially be found in the reasons any human gives when they create something.
Which for me, over this weekend, includes but was not limited to:
1) I mixed up a batch of homebrew because it tastes good.
2) I painted a little watercolor because I was bored alone at home.
3) I started knitting a baby sweater because there's someone coming who I want to ensure is warm and knows she is loved.
There's also Julian of Norwich's answer to the question:
quote:
Also in this He shewed me a little thing, the quantity of an hazel-nut, in the palm of my hand; and it was as round as a ball. I looked thereupon with eye of my understanding, and thought: What may this be? And it was answered generally thus: It is all that is made. I marvelled how it might last, for methought it might suddenly have fallen to naught for little[ness]. And I was answered in my understanding: It lasteth, and ever shall [last] for that God loveth it. And so All-thing hath the Being by the love of God.
In this Little Thing I saw three properties. The first is that God made it, the second is that God loveth it, the third, that God keepeth it. But what is to me verily the Maker, the Keeper, and the Lover,—I cannot tell; for till I am Substantially oned27 to Him, I may never have full rest nor very bliss: that is to say, till I be so fastened to Him, that there is right nought that is made betwixt my God and me.
[ 16. April 2012, 16:36: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why did God create the universe?
This is only an extension of the more basic question: why does God create. If by God we mean creator of the universe there's no good reason for saying other than it's simply God's nature to create.
Why this universe? It's just our of view of what God happens to be creating now.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Because He is Love. And you can't love nothing.
Any chance of expanding on this? I have no idea what it might mean to identify an apparently personal being as being equivalent to or interchangeable with an emotion/feeling/state of mind.
I also can't escape the thought that you're saying God didn't exist until He created something.
Hmm. Good point. The reason God must be trinitarian is that he couldn't love nothing - so then why did he need to create the Universe?
On the first point, I think I find it harder to think of God as a personal being. I'm not really sure what the first person of the trinity is (or what he does that the other two persons haven't got covered).
Hopefully someone can explain this to me...
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I like your answer, Spiffy. I think Julian of Norwich had the best take on it.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Love the Julian of Norwich. Does it answer the question though?
Because God is Trinity, God does not have to create in order to express the love that God is. So creation is wholly gift. And God creates because God is self-giving love. Creation is a kenotic act, just as incarnation is. It's like Anselm's question 'Cur Deus Homo?' and Rahner's answer, 'Quia Deus.' Why did God become man? Because that's the kind of God He is.
[ 16. April 2012, 17:25: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Eh, Julian's got bigger fish to fry. Like she says (translated from the Olde English to the Mary Sue Revised Standard Version), "Until I'm up kicking it with God, I won't be able to chill and be happy because I know everything: you know, until I'm so embraced by him, that really there's like nothing between my God and myself."
(Also, I tend to on first go always read "oned" not as one-ed, but like pwned, which both has a clearer correlation to people of my subculture and interesting theological implications.)
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Exactly, Spiffy. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I believe God created the universe to be a dwelling place for the Logos. Why would God want to dwell in a universe? Well, I think it can't be need or loneliness, both of which imply something deficient in God; rather, I think it's the nature of love and joy to bubble over and want to be shared.
I think the movement of creation and salvation history is God loving the world/cosmos/universe out into existence and loving it back to Godself, but not as an implosion where all that exists ceases to exist or loses its distinctions. Rather, through creation and the Incarnation, God has opened space within God for more of the beautiful unity-in-diversity that already characterizes the Trinity.
It's just what love does.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong
Why did God create the universe?
Why do you think the universe was created? Not "for what reason was it created" just for what reason(s) do you think there was a concious, deliberate act or acts leading to a tangible result (the universe)?
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Because He is Love. And you can't love nothing.
Which means that god and the universe started simultaneously.
Otherwise
a) god did exist without our universe which means it either loved nothing (which you won't allow) or it loved a previous universe (which just moves the question back one universal generation), or
b) god didn't create the universe, or
c) god was created after the universe (in the image of man).
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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savedbyhim01
Apprentice
# 17035
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Posted
We can not know because we are not God. I suspect it is similar to the reasons parents have children. Parents know their children aren't going to be perfect. They know that their children will make them sad sometimes. But they want someone to love and there will be a lot of joy as a result of these children.
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Matthew 28:18-20
My Inductive Bible Study Notes
Posts: 31 | From: China | Registered: Apr 2012
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why did God create you?
Because God is Love, and he wanted beings to love who might love him in return.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There is nothing that suggests that God is just a bigger us and thinks like us, only more so. There's nothing to suggest that God operates on the same principles, cultural values and ideas as we do. Even we want to be a bit more literal than I like to be, it doesn't say "just like God", it says in God's image. The just like God line belongs to the serpent in the garden.
It is annoying (at least to me) but there is a mystery of things that means I can never 'get' what's going in with an eternal being who does absolutely ridiculous things (from my perspective). And is quite neglectful (from my perspective) to most of the people in the world who are suffering. But what on earth can I possibly know?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Why does an artist create? Or a musician? If we can answer that question, it might be an indication of why God creates.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Because God is love and it is the essence of love to be creative
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think that posts about love and creativity probably get to the heart of it.
But does anyone else out there have the feeling that I sometimes do- and it's not one I really feel very happy about naming- that given the complexities and difficulties and general sod-it-all-why's-it-all-such-a-grind-ness of existence (and I'm not even mentioning the real suffering because I've been fortunate enough not to experience that so far) it might all have been better if He hadn't bothered ?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But does anyone else out there have the feeling that I sometimes do- and it's not one I really feel very happy about naming- that given the complexities and difficulties and general sod-it-all-why's-it-all-such-a-grind-ness of existence (and I'm not even mentioning the real suffering because I've been fortunate enough not to experience that so far) it might all have been better if He hadn't bothered ?
I don't much like the thought, as it doesn't tick any of the boxes in our current culture of fairness for all, but it does seem rather likely that the wastage of humans is rather like the wastage of frogspawn or cod roe - for every 1 human that really achieves something amazing in life (musician, artist, inventor, great statesman) there are thousands who don't really do much, don't really get very far, and who take up a huge amount of resources, leading in many cases rather miserable little lives.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Because He is Love. And you can't love nothing.
Any chance of expanding on this?
As I was taught, it is indeed because God is love. The lesson continues that love has three qualities: - 1. It requires something outside of itself to love.
- 2. It wishes to be joined freely and reciprocally with what it loves.
- 3. It wishes to make what it loves happy.
This explains everything.
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I also can't escape the thought that you're saying God didn't exist until He created something.
That's assuming that the word "until" applies. There was no time before creation, and thus no "before."
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But does anyone else out there have the feeling that I sometimes do-...it might all have been better if He hadn't bothered?
That would be the right conclusion if we believe that there is a good chance that the requirements of love will not be met. That is, no freely chosen reciprocal connection with God, and no happiness.
If we assume that the project will be successful, though, and that we have a world that is increasingly full of people who feel connected with their Creator and who are happy, then it does seem worthwhile.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would say that God created us to have someone to love and provide for. The same reason I had my children.
I had my children because I already had someone to love and provide for, and she me. I cannot help but love my children because of the love from which they were created.
From these experiences of love we learn something of the love of God.
As for why God created the muliverse? I don't know. I just thank him that he did.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I've always been quite a fan of voluntarism. Simply (and slightly flippantly) put, this says that the answer to all those "why did God" questions is "because He felt like it" .
Why did God create the universe? Felt like it.
Why did God create people? Felt like it.
Why did God redeem people? Felt like it.
The problematic bit of this is that it makes all of God's actions arbitrary. But this isn't such a problem if (and only if) God is entirely good and benevolent.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Just before the universe came to existence there was energy. Energy has to be expressed or it isn't energy. There result of energy's expression was the universe in one five hundred millionth of a second.
No "reason", just physics.
[ 17. April 2012, 13:30: Message edited by: IconiumBound ]
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I'm loving these answers. Thank you.
Let's take it to the next level:
If you believe God created the world/universe/you because of or out of or for "x,y,z", what are the implications for how you live your life?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
So when we die we can go and tell Him the Stories of our lifes. What a gift, who would have imagined?
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
That reminds me of a cartoon I once saw which had a beggar standing by a notice that said 'for 10p I'll look at your holiday photos'.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
I am the universe, the Universe is me, I am an expression of God, God "is" through me.
Read the Upanishads, dears, and get off this linear cause-and-effect nonsense that muddles our insight when we consider God.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Since the universe does exist, and so do we, does it matter why?
I'm not just being facetious. If either the question or the answer mattered, wouldn't God be a bit more explicit about it? Isn't enough just to accept that the universe does exist and be thankful.
O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise him and magnify him forever.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Since the universe does exist, and so do we, does it matter why?
I'm not just being facetious. If either the question or the answer mattered, wouldn't God be a bit more explicit about it? Isn't enough just to accept that the universe does exist and be thankful.
O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise him and magnify him forever.
By the same token - if that god thought it mattered whether we believed he existed wouldn't he be a bit more explicit about that?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Current theories of the physical creation of the universe and life on Earth might have an impact on the "why" question.
Think about it. The Universe is currently calculated to be 1%: 13.7 ± 0.13 billion years old. Our solar system is about 4.5 billion years old. Some form of human has been around for a couple of million years. Before us, there were trilobites, but I understand they were not much for long conversations.
I get it that God is not locked into our time horizon. Still, 13.7 billion years is a bit long for most folks patience to have a family.
Read Genesis and you see that there wasn't much around. Variations on the big bang theory say there weren't many shopping malls around, for instance.
A facile answer might be that God was bored.
I think a better answer might be different. I remember a sermon from Pyx_e in the CoF. He was talking about when the woman touched the robe of Jesus. Even though Jesus was not in the mood, Jesus was compelled to turn and bless the woman. Jesus was compelled because that reaching out was the core nature of Jesus.
The Big Bang occurred because the nature of the original singularity was that it had to expand into the Universe.
Creation came from God because the nature of God is that God had to create the Universe.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Since the universe does exist, and so do we, does it matter why?
I'm not just being facetious. If either the question or the answer mattered, wouldn't God be a bit more explicit about it? Isn't enough just to accept that the universe does exist and be thankful.
O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise him and magnify him forever.
By the same token - if that god thought it mattered whether we believed he existed wouldn't he be a bit more explicit about that?
There are serious drawbacks to being explicit.
At the same time, an answer to the "why" question is pre-requisite to an adequate explanation of most things. Removing the idea of purpose from the formula of existence means that it is not understood.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that we don't understand, but I think that there is something wrong with insisting that an adequate explanation is impossible.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
As I said, silly. We don't know the answer. As with some many other such questions: wait a short period of time and ask God in person.
I've been much struck by this.
I tried it last night (asked God).
Then flipped out cos I realised I may not like the answer! So didn't really want to know.
I suck.
And God knows that so God is merciful and gracious.
As for God needing us to love......a very human construct. A very anthropomorphic answer.
Possible. But doesn't really fit was the Greek images of God so much of our scriptures are infused with.
Jewish one perhaps? More likely. The Jewish God is much more anthropomorphic.
She changes her mind all the time. Seems to feel sorrow etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think that posts about love and creativity probably get to the heart of it.
But does anyone else out there have the feeling that I sometimes do- and it's not one I really feel very happy about naming- that given the complexities and difficulties and general sod-it-all-why's-it-all-such-a-grind-ness of existence (and I'm not even mentioning the real suffering because I've been fortunate enough not to experience that so far) it might all have been better if He hadn't bothered ?
A good point.
And I've realised this question of why usually comes up with me when I'm struggling with questions of the nature of humankind.
Why we suck so much. Why we fight so much. Why we victimize the "other" so much. Why we are so violent.
"Atonement" (which others are arguing so violently about on the other thread) seems to be a complete illusion.
How are we really reconciled with God now if we still suck so much?
Puts all atonement theories to shame.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm loving these answers. Thank you.
Let's take it to the next level:
If you believe God created the world/universe/you because of or out of or for "x,y,z", what are the implications for how you live your life?
Well I would agree that God in Trinity has a completely fulfilled expression of a loving relationship. In the act of creation he invites us to join him in that relationship. In making sense of what life is all about, and how to live it, then what else can we sensibly do but accept the invitation?
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I tried it last night (asked God).
Then flipped out cos I realised I may not like the answer! So didn't really want to know.
Thank you Evensong. I found that inspiringly profound.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why did God create the universe?
Don't know, that's what God does I guess.
quote:
Why did God create you?
He wanted to give my mother the best present in the world: Me as a son.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
By the same token - if that god thought it mattered whether we believed he existed wouldn't he be a bit more explicit about that?
Originally posted by Freddy
There are serious drawbacks to being explicit.
At the same time, an answer to the "why" question is pre-requisite to an adequate explanation of most things. Removing the idea of purpose from the formula of existence means that it is not understood.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that we don't understand, but I think that there is something wrong with insisting that an adequate explanation is impossible.
There are serious drawbacks to being explicit Drawbacks such as “I’ve a message for the lady called Effie, who is wearing green knickers and sitting in the front row, who has three cats, a mole on her left thigh and a never declared passion for strawberry jelly smeared with Marmite. It’s from her dead great, great uncle's third cousin (twice removed) Potiphar who says "put the house on Purple Porpoise to win the 4:30 at Wincanton tomorrow” might permit? Being explicit helps to remove doubt, focus the pursuit of truth and test hypotheses. Why should a loving/caring/perfect god object to that?
I’m not sure I comprehend Removing the idea of purpose from the formula of existence means that it is not understood. You seem to think that existence should/can be understood – why?
There is nothing wrong with admitting that we don't understand, but I think that there is something wrong with insisting that an adequate explanation is impossible. Totally agree – but we have to be careful that the desire for an explanation doesn’t mean that we over-value a hypothesis.
Generally - the “god is love” idea is jolly wonderful – until it disintegrates on the buffers of reality (arthritis/dementia/osteoporosis/motor neurone/earthquakes/tsunamis/Aberfan/Wolbachia pipientis/parasitic wasps etc. create your own list).
ISTM that, were there a god who loves us, either we misunderstand the concept of love, god misunderstands the concept of love or god is powerless to affect the universe he’s alleged to have created – in which cases what good is god to us (or, indeed, are we to him)?
What am I missing?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
What am I missing?
It's not really that hard to learn how to use the quote thingies.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
You seem to think that existence should/can be understood – why?
Because an understanding of life, especially a shared sense of purpose, enhances human well being. By contrast, the lack of understanding, and especially the lack of a sense of purpose, detracts from it.
As to whether it can be understood, that is a matter of opinion. There are thousands of models and theories to choose from. It's not a hard question, in my opinion.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Being explicit helps to remove doubt, focus the pursuit of truth and test hypotheses. Why should a loving/caring/perfect god object to that?
Actually this is what I love about Swedenborgianism. It is explicit, detailed, and fully explanatory. But it may or may not be true.
If by explicit you mean demonstrable, though, that is different. A God who was manifestly present would pretty much wreck your life.
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
There is nothing wrong with admitting that we don't understand, but I think that there is something wrong with insisting that an adequate explanation is impossible. Totally agree – but we have to be careful that the desire for an explanation doesn’t mean that we over-value a hypothesis.
Sure.
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Generally - the “god is love” idea is jolly wonderful – until it disintegrates on the buffers of reality (arthritis/dementia/osteoporosis/motor neurone/earthquakes/tsunamis/Aberfan/Wolbachia pipientis/parasitic wasps etc. create your own list).
ISTM that, were there a god who loves us, either we misunderstand the concept of love, god misunderstands the concept of love or god is powerless to affect the universe he’s alleged to have created – in which cases what good is god to us (or, indeed, are we to him)?
I don't understand why people's thoughts go in that direction. Would we really prefer a world where earthquakes were impossible? Would we really prefer a world where bad intentions simply couldn't happen?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Evensong: Why did God create you?
Because He has a really weird sense of humour.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why did God create the universe?
Why not?
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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