Thread: My funeral Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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When I die, I want a Christian funeral. Is this selfish of me?
I am biased. This is not only because I'm a Christian, and have a desire for the committal to be from a priest called to be there to pray for my departure into God's loving embrace, and for the genuine prayers of Christian friends.
It's also because I've found the creeping sickly false words and smiles from 'civil celebrants' and their put-together so-called 'services' to be shudderingly off-putting. They rely on the genuine feelings of the families and friends to carry it off, and then give a parting-shot to vulnerable people loaded with their own ideas of what happens next, if anything, to the departed. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Perhaps my experiences are not typical? I hope not!
Of course I want the service to be meaningful to everyone who attends, but how can this be achieved? If you're a non-believer, do you feel excluded at Christian funerals? Would you arrange a 'civil ceremony' for a Christian relative? If you're a Christian, how important is a Christian funeral to you?
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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I think thoughtful advance directives, given to the people in your life with the authority to act on your estate's behalf, are precisely for this type of situation.
Although I was told of a case of post-mortem sheep-stealing involving a local elderly woman whose fundamentalist family disapproved of her non-fundamentalist church and female pastor, and when she was sick and unable to advocate on her own behalf her children banished the pastor and representatives of her church from the list of approved hospital visitors and made sure that her funeral was out of their church, not hers. I'm told that her own church family (who sound like the real family here anyway) were really heartbroken by all this, and had an ex officio memorial service for her at her church. I can see an aggressively non-theist family pulling the same stunt with family member who's a believer, which is all the more reason to get one's final wishes in writing in a legally binding form.
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on
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I would think most people would expect to attend a Christian funeral for a person who was a Christian - especially if that person's religion had been important to him or her.
Most people can "do the math" - i.e., translate what the officiant is saying into her or his own religion's teachings, or connect it with her or his own feelings, etc. If there's to be Communion/Mass, most people can sort out on their own whether they want to receive or not. My own experience working in a church is that for a well-attended funeral (e.g., one where lots of co-workers and extended family & friends attend), maybe about a third of the people will receive Communion, so those who don't certainly feel no pressure; they're in good company.
It can also be a meaningful time for Christian survivors (friends and family), and an opportunity for the Church to be welcoming to people who might not go to church otherwise - so make sure you pick a good church!
Actually, that last bit is probably the answer to your question about putting people off who aren't Christians. Pick a church that won't do that. Pick a church where they won't turn your funeral into an evangelizing opportunity, but will simply show the love of God to the bereaved.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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Thank you for the real life example LutheranChik, a demonstration of the true human kindness we all hope for - not!
I hadn't considered the possibility of such cruelty when nearing death, it is as you said a reminder of the importance of advance directives, concerning both before and after death.
Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on
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And we can organize in advance with the church we belong too, what hymns we want and who is to talk etc etc.
Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on
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I don't think it's in any way reprehensible to want a funeral in accord with your faith and practice, Raptor Eye.
Although they say funerals are for the bereaved, not the deceased, I think where and how the funeral takes place is partly a statement of where the deceased was belief-wise. There is a lot more to say about the person than whether they were an Anglican etc.
Even if, due to unfortunate circumstances, as outlined by LutheranChik, the funeral is inappropriate for the person, I don't think the Almighty or the deceased are particularly worried, especially if their true faith community do something appropriate.
It is a crazy world and people do crazy things.
Posted by Bernard Mahler (# 10852) on
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quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And we can organize in advance with the church we belong too, what hymns we want and who is to talk etc etc.
Lo and behold! I have an appointment next Tuesday morning with our parish priest to do just that. My next-of-kin actually asked me what sort of funeral I wanted, so no problem there.
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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I'd also echo the advice to find a church home where funerals aren't normally turned into come-to-Jesus evangelism opportunities.
I attended one such affair -- the person was unchurched, and I think the bereaved probably found the pastor in the phone book -- where the gist of the sermon was that So-and-So was probably in hell because there was no discernable evidence that she had Accepted Jesus As Her Personal Savior [tm], and that everyone assembled had better shape up so that that same fate didn't befall them.
"Thank you, sir. May I have another?"
You don't get this sort of thing at a Lutheran funeral. You also generally don't get flowery eulogies. (They're pretty much discouraged.) Just a basic message according the deceased the dignity of being recognized as a child of God and fellow member of the human race worth being remembered and a message of God's love and grace and ultimate victory over death... without a sales pitch, without overwrought/speculative commentary on the deceased's character and/or salvific status and without fearmongering.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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I told this story before elsewhere but I think it supports LutherChik's point. When I was a chaplain in the Air Force I had the duty to perform a funeral for a serviceman who committed suicide because he did not want to go to a remote assignment--I think it was in the North Sea. His family was from a fundamentalist Baptist church. They wanted their pastor to say a few words. To say the least it was a hell fire and damnation sermon in which the preacher damned the man to hell and gone. By the time he was done the family was devastated. Then it was my turn to say something. I chucked what I had prepared and spoke a few minutes about the quintessence of the Gospel--that God's love is all encompassing. I did not say anything critical of the Baptist preacher, but I could tell he was unhappy. He actually got up and stormed out about half way through what I was saying. He did not even attend the committal.
Two years later I happened to be visiting another base on a TDY. I went to cash a check at the Base Exchange. The teller, it turned out, was the widow of the serviceman. She took the time to thank me once again for what I had said and said it meant so much for her to recall my words when she was feeling down and out.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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I do have to tell the story my pastor told a couple of weeks ago.
There was a elderly lady who knew she was about to die. She called in her pastor to tell him of a special request she wanted to make. The pastor heard her out and agreed to the request.
A few weeks later the woman died. When they had the funeral the casket had remained closed, but after the benediction the funeral director opened the casket so all could pay their last respects (not usually done in Lutheran funerals}. As the people filed by they noticed the woman was holding a fork.
Just before the committal the pastor paused and addressed the group. "Friends," he said, "Mildred had told me whenever she went to a church potluck she had always been told to save her fork. She knew when that happened dessert was next. She wanted to keep her fork with her as a way of telling you the best is yet to come."
Yes, the best is yet to come.
Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on
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I gave the eulogy at the funeral for my father. He died at 94 in a semi-rural township near Melbourne. My father's family had been Anglican since the Reformation and he definitely had faith. The church was packed. Quite a pleasant, normal sermon by a normal Anglican cleric. She did it tastefully.
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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The funeral incident that I remember was that of a priest, who tended to be almost abrasively Low, left strict instructions concerning his funeral. Firstly, there was to be no Requiem Mass, and secondly, a certain prayer, which can be taken as leaving the door open for belief in Purgatory was to be omitted. The paper outlining his wishes was handed to his bishop with a smile and the words "If the minister taking my funeral ignores these instructions I will come back and haunt the bastard!"
PD
[ 22. April 2012, 03:41: Message edited by: PD ]
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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When I pop my clogs my body goes to the nearby medical college so some young thing can learn something by cutting me up - the remains, if any, to be cremated and the ashes put it in the river the same place we put my dad's.
Hopefully there will be no eulogy and no spoken prayers as I would rather go out gently and quietly after the manner of Friends.
Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on
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Raptor Eye's question is one that has bothered me from time to time. My family are Orthodox Presbyterian and opposed both to Anglicanism and the ordination of women.
I am an Anglo-Catholic, and when I go I want the full kit and caboodle, incense, choir, aspersing, and all observation fitting to being a priest (vested, feet towards congregation, etc). I also want to be buried under a tree, in an unmarked grave. I do not want to be cremated, and am adamant about this.
Given my family's background I don't quite trust them (should I predecease them) to do this for me. As I am single, I have left envelopes with instructions with a couple of close friends, my sister (who is not of the same persuasion as my folks), and I will continue to leave an envelope with my warden in whichever parish I am currently serving.
[ 22. April 2012, 05:35: Message edited by: Nunc Dimittis ]
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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In English law the ultimate decision is, I believe, down to the Executor of the deceased's estate so let your executor know in good time and make sure they are sympathetic - if not then change your executor!
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Nunc , Make a will and appoint an executor you can trust. Leave very specific instructions with the executor. The executor is the person entitled to the body and strictly is the only one who can make funeral arrangements. Perhaps your instructions should direct aspersing the congregation, with particular attention to some of its members......
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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As an atheist I'd find it absurd to be offended by a Christian who planned a Christian funeral for themself. If it contained a lot of preaching against teh gayz I'd probably not want to go that persons funeral unless I knew it was hijacked.
I'd also expect OP to attend without complaint a non religious for an atheist who had made such plans if OP wanted to attend the funeral.
I'm flashing back to a time when I was an aids phone counselor in Boston before gay marriage was legal there. The legal situation was that the biological family could dictate the the disposition of the body, no matter what the deceased had wanted or his his lover had arranged. Since wills could be arranged otherwise there were actually bequests made to family that were conditional on obeying the deceased plans to be buried with their lover in the religion of their chosing instead of the religion of the family that had thrown them out. It was a form of buying your body back from your family. Hopefully that's all obsolete now that Massachusetts has gay marriage.
Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on
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I'd imagine that any Christian funeral where the friends and family were treated with love and the Christian hope was clearly conveyed would be inherently 'evangelistic'? I'd prefer a funeral focused on that rather than nattering on about me and my life, and if it brought anyone closer to faith I'd be very happy. I guess that makes me an advocate of evangelistic funerals then ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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If I am honest, the only thing I want regarding my funeral is that I am dead. Funerals are not for the person who has passed, but for those who are left.
Having said that, it makes sense to ensure that the funeral reflects the dead person, and is an appropriate tribute to them. So a funeral of an avowed atheist, where God is an important part would be wrong. As vv.
It should be a celebration of their life, and a chance for those left behind to mark a point in their grieving. End of. Except that it also provides a dignified way of body disposal.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If I am honest, the only thing I want regarding my funeral is that I am dead. Funerals are not for the person who has passed, but for those who are left.
Having said that, it makes sense to ensure that the funeral reflects the dead person, and is an appropriate tribute to them. So a funeral of an avowed atheist, where God is an important part would be wrong. As vv.
It should be a celebration of their life, and a chance for those left behind to mark a point in their grieving. End of. Except that it also provides a dignified way of body disposal.
As mentioned elsewhere, my funeral is apt to include at some point a posthumous Mormon baptism (unless I've managed at that point to tick them off so much they can't bear the thought of eternity w/ me!). So I tend to have an equally laissez-faire perspective. Better to worry about our relationship and what happens between us in this life, what happens when I'm dead and gone I'm fairly certain won't concern me much. Funerals almost always reflect the faith of the bereaved more than the deceased, I don't see much of a problem with that.
Posted by Amika (# 15785) on
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In the two most recent funerals I've attended, one was a Christian service for an old work colleague and the other was a semi-secular one for my father. I found the one for my old friend to be moving - it took place at the crematorium, not in a church - and the celebrant, a retired vicar, was excellent. My father's funeral, just three months later at the same crematorium, was not so impressive. He was an atheist but my mother wanted a little religion at his funeral and so we had hymns, but the celebrant's words were non-religious.
For my sister and I the funeral was awful, but I don't think it was anything to do with religion, or lack of it. The celebrant's words rang hollow with us. He had never known our dad and he was saying (nice) things about him that were only partly true. It all seemed false - one size fits all. In the case of my old friend, the vicar had clearly not known her but somehow he exuded a more caring air, and spoke about her in a way that moved the congregation. I can't really put it any more clearly than that.
It got me thinking, as an atheist myself, that I don't want a funeral like my dad's! As an occasional churchgoer I do know the vicar of my local church, and my mother seems to have become more religious of late. Since the funeral wouldn't be for me as I'd be gone, I'm thinking it's either that or a committal with no funeral at all (which would be my sister's choice!).
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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I want a Requiem Mass celebrated by an episcopally ordained priest in purple (not black - old fashioned, nor white - that's for virgins) I have chosen the hymns and I want the coffin aspersed and censed (in the right direction or I'll; haunt!)
The requiem is the key thing.
i recently took a funeral which had been scripted word for word by the deceased - even as far as directing what should appear in the homily.
Many of the relatives talked to me about this afterwards - was it a good thing to leave detailed instructions? My response was that it did help those who were arranging the funeral at such a difficult time but it can also be a bit arrogant (I could get away with saying the latter because they'd said similar things).
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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I have the sad feeling that should I be granted at least another 40-50 years of life, there won't be many people where I live who'll have much idea of what a 'Christian funeral' is. I'll have to hope that all my transatlantic cousins come over and sing for me, because there are so few people my age or younger who'll know any of the hymns I like. (Or maybe I should just go and live abroad - not just so I can have a 'good funeral' though!)
The idea of having a funeral where the presiding minister never knew me is also extremely unattractive. I've rarely seen this in practice; most funerals I attend involve people who are in some way connected to the church in question. But for the community at large, I think the problem stems from the fact that so few people talk about death, so they end up with a default option for their funeral.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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An elderly friend was slowed down by a heart attack in her 80s and knew she had few if any years left. In casual chit chat she mentioned she had planned her funeral including a poem she had written to be read at the funeral, and put the instructions in her safety deposit box at the bank.
I don't know who all she told, but when I found out on a Friday night a year later that her funeral was Saturday, it was too late to say "go to her safety deposit box." No poem was read. Or maybe they did retrieve her instructions and used some but not all of it.
I felt a sense of regret on her behalf, but writing this I see that in the planning she was making peace, or expressing peace, with her own death. That has value in itself. Truth is, once we are dead (and alas for many oldsters, in the last several years of this life) we have no control. We may plan what we want, but they will do what they want.
If you really are determined, who ya gonna give the paper to that will know of your death promptly and won't have lost the paper with your instructions, or won't have forgotten they ever received instructions from you!
I want the Hallelujah chorus, a friend wants the whole Brahms Requiem, neither of us is important enough for those dreams to happen. Will someone give me a funeral instead of just tossing the body in the ground? For those of us with no family, I doubt anyone will bother to do much organizing (and expense) of a real funeral. Good thing God doesn't let ceremony or lack of limit his welcoming love!
Posted by pimple (# 10635) on
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I recently attended the funeral of an agnostic friend, at which some members of his family were devout traditional christans.
It was taken in a well-designed crematorium by a female secular celebrant.
The service included both christian hymns and secular songs, as well as one or two of my friend's poems.
At the end of the service the family remained in the chapel, gathered round the coffin, while the rest of us filed out. A flower was taken off the coffin and given to the youngest child - not in any formal, ritual way.
From my discussion with the family afterwards, I gathered that the service and the celebrant were well received by christians and n0n-believers alike. It is certainly the most satisfactory funeral I have attended. It was honest and compassionate, and denied nobody's hopes with regard to the afterlife. I would consider it a considerable honour, when my time comes, to be despatched with equal grace.
[ 22. April 2012, 18:54: Message edited by: pimple ]
Posted by coniunx (# 15313) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Nunc , Make a will and appoint an executor you can trust. Leave very specific instructions with the executor.
And it's best to take that as 'both/and'.
Whilst a Will is usually checked by the Executors before a funeral, I don't believe there is any requirement to do so - and an executor unaware of the fact that specific funeral arrangements are specified in a Will might not find them until too late.
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If I am honest, the only thing I want regarding my funeral is that I am dead. Funerals are not for the person who has passed, but for those who are left.
This is a common position, but it is not a universal one. I am a high Anglican and very much believe that prayer for the dead -- and supremely the offering of a Requiem Mass -- is worthy and worthwhile. I see the offering of this Mass not only as the supreme way of acknowledging the Resurrection in the midst of grief but also as a very concrete thing that the bereaved can do on behalf of the one who has died.
Common Worship has a wonderful introduction to the funeral service (I'm not sure if it's shared with any other traditions):
quote:
We have come here today
to remember before God our brother/sister N;
to give thanks for his/her life;
to commend him/her to God our merciful redeemer and judge;
to commit his/her body to be buried/cremated,
and to comfort one another in our grief.
So the funeral, from my point of view (and I'm certainly not saying this is the only conceivable point of view) is for the bereaved and genuinely and really for the dead person as well.
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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Someone in our church family recently had to sit through a funeral, in another church, where the deceased's soon-to-be-ex-spouse delivered, via an incredibly common-sense-deficient lay assistant minister whom she handed her "eulogy," a rageful unloading of all her marital unhappiness that he dutifully read unedited. The woman's own family, as well as the pastor involved in the service and everyone else there, was shocked and mortified. (I'm honestly not sure what the lay minister's role was supposed to be here; our pastor never uses an assistant for funerals). Just another case of semi-DYI funerals that become hopelessly f*****d up by personal melodrama and lack of direction and that go in a direction that I'm sure the deceased would not have wanted them to go.
My pastor's response to this story: "In a funeral sermon, you talk about Jesus." Seriously. In a Christian church, this should be the focus of a funeral -- not a Dr. Phil feelings-fest, not an revisionist biography of the deceased in either direction, not a sales pitch for siding with the Christian team before you get called down to The Other Place.
I know that a lot of people enjoy/expect a lot of positive personal anecdotes about the deceased. But, seriously, this can create its own problems; imagine the victim of spousal or child abuse sitting at the funeral of his/her abuser and hearing that person hailed as the greatest human being ever. People are complicated, and simply focusing on (or making up) how swell they were isn't being honest, or even kind to some of the people attending the service.
I read about an interfaith organization that helped street people by, among other things, providing them with dignified funerals that gave their street friends and other aid workers an opportunity to grieve AND granted the deceased the dignity of simply being remembered as someone who lived on this earth; who had connections, however damaged or incomplete, to other human beings; who deserved this final act of recognition and compassion by virtue of being human. This is also an avenue any Christian pastor can take in a funeral sermon while still being very upfront about why we Christians have hope that this ending isn't the end of the story.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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Thank you all for sharing your experiences, advice and opinions.
A friend was horrified at the very idea of a 'civil' funeral, having assumed a default Christian one without a specific opt-out. I think that people in the legal profession will be noticing an increase in enquiries this week.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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LutheranChik posts:
quote:
I read about an interfaith organization that helped street people by, among other things, providing them with dignified funerals that gave their street friends and other aid workers an opportunity to grieve AND granted the deceased the dignity of simply being remembered as someone who lived on this earth; who had connections, however damaged or incomplete, to other human beings; who deserved this final act of recognition and compassion by virtue of being human.
One of my fellow newly-retirees has just joined a small gang of RCs, taking his late father's place, a guild where they are (usually the only) mourners at the funerals of street people or those without survivors. Apparently it started shortly after WWII when someone learned of the Jewish practice of chevras, volunteers who wash the body and stay with it until the funeral, and thought that we should take a leaf from their book. I think that there were some mediaeval confraternities which did this, but have no specifics.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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I double post only to semi-eat my words. Mediaeval and post-mediaeval RC Europe and the French, Portuguese and Spanish colonies were full of hundreds of these confraternities, which had the provision of funerals as one of their basic activities. Some of them got to be quite wealthy from benefactions over the years, and built hospitals. I knew of them from reading over the years, but didn't connect the dots when I was typing the previous message.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Although I was told of a case of post-mortem sheep-stealing involving a local elderly woman whose fundamentalist family disapproved of her non-fundamentalist church and female pastor, and when she was sick and unable to advocate on her own behalf her children banished the pastor and representatives of her church from the list of approved hospital visitors and made sure that her funeral was out of their church, not hers. I'm told that her own church family (who sound like the real family here anyway) were really heartbroken by all this, and had an ex officio memorial service for her at her church. I can see an aggressively non-theist family pulling the same stunt with family member who's a believer, which is all the more reason to get one's final wishes in writing in a legally binding form.
One of my parishioners died last November, and his passing led to the latter case, the (unchurched and uninterested) family claiming that he didn't want a funeral. In the event, I waited a few months and held a requiem mass for the deceased a few months later; we were able to do our duty by him and by his community without too aggressively thumbing our noses at his family.
Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on
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quote:
My pastor's response to this story: "In a funeral sermon, you talk about Jesus." Seriously. In a Christian church, this should be the focus of a funeral -- not a Dr. Phil feelings-fest, not an revisionist biography of the deceased in either direction, not a sales pitch for siding with the Christian team before you get called down to The Other Place.
Oh God yes. The Irish custom (which the Irish Catholic Church is now mercifully cracking down on) is to eulogise the deceased. I was at one particularly awful funeral where the priest euologised a particular great uncle for his upright Catholic life and contrasted it unfavourably with The Youth Of Today even though said great uncle was a) not actually that Catholic b) known in the family as a complete asshole.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
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I want a full Requiem*, bells, smells 'n' all, and have written notes to that effect which I am putting with my will. I have listed as much as possible, hymns etc that I would like, partly to save my family from having to make decisions when the time comes. My m-i-l died last year and we scrabbled about among her papers because somebody vaguely thought she had left a note about what hymns she wanted. I don't want family members to have to worry unnecessarily about things in my case.
One of the worst funerals I went to was some years ago - a very con evo occasion, with at least 5 (5!) long eulogies followed by a lengthy sermon which bashed RC and Orthodox belief, in a smug, supercilious 'of course they're not Christian!' sort of way. I would have walked out had it not been the funeral of someone I had known.
*actually, having seen The Vikings again on TV the other day I quite fancy being sent off in flames in a longboat, but possibly that wouldn't be very practical around these parts...
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
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Very interesting to read all the different ways that funerals have been dealt with. My sons know I'd like anything they arrange to be simple and if they feel they need a celebrant, then there is one I know well at the local Huanist group.
Quite a few of my contemporaries assume their families will organise a standard, simple CofE occasion, although most of them are non-church-going and have only a rather vague, nominal belief in God or an afterlife.
I attended the funeral of a dear, close friend (of 58 years standing) last month and she had organised everything. Maintaining a firm, straightforward faith all her life, she used to worry a bit about my soul, but the subject only came up on rare occasions, and I was the one whose company cheered her up and we always found something to have a little laugh about.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I do have to tell the story my pastor told a couple of weeks ago.
There was a elderly lady who knew she was about to die. She called in her pastor to tell him of a special request she wanted to make. The pastor heard her out and agreed to the request.
A few weeks later the woman died. When they had the funeral the casket had remained closed, but after the benediction the funeral director opened the casket so all could pay their last respects (not usually done in Lutheran funerals}. As the people filed by they noticed the woman was holding a fork.
Just before the committal the pastor paused and addressed the group. "Friends," he said, "Mildred had told me whenever she went to a church potluck she had always been told to save her fork. She knew when that happened dessert was next. She wanted to keep her fork with her as a way of telling you the best is yet to come."
Yes, the best is yet to come.
fyi:
Christian urban legend (scroll down for this particular version)
[ 23. April 2012, 13:57: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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Pine Marten writes:
quote:
actually, having seen The Vikings again on TV the other day I quite fancy being sent off in flames in a longboat, but possibly that wouldn't be very practical around these parts...
Some of us who have a cycling past are quite frustrated by local authorities who will not facilitate our velo-pyre plans. A bike & biker-bearing raft ablaze and floating down the Ottawa River over the Chaudière rapids is indeed an entrancing idea.
I have a document handy with hymns etc listed with a choice of Dowland or Tallis for the anthem, and all to be done acccording to St Percy-- dalmatic and tunicle for lesser ministers and birettas only for graduates of Spanish or Italian universities. My executors are instructed to facilitate my desire to go eulogy-less by informing the priest that they get a bottle of good single malt should he comply, and no Laphraoig 16-yr old if he doesn't. Choristers get a bottle of good Spanish red if of age, and a CD token if they don't. The organist reaps cognac. I believe in performance incentives. And ditto for a year's memorial. The executors have a $2,000 allowance for each bunfight but I may push that up.
I might not be in a position to attend the funeral myself, as the University of Ottawa medical school gets me (we have a family tradition of leaving our bodies for medical education-- I'll be the fourth generation to do so) but, should the circumstances of the afterlife permit, I'll be keeping an eye out to see if the counter-tenor is up to snuff.
Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on
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I intend to request the final chorale from Bach's St John Passion. It isn't too difficult for a church choir and I don't mind if it's a recording.
I was a little startled when a very elderly lady came up to the organ one Sunday and asked the name of the tune I'd used for the second hymn, as she was just revising her funeral plans and wanted to specify the music.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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Specifying what you want vs leaving it entirely to your descendants, is a tricky balance.
On one hand you may end up with a funeral which will make you turn in your grave, and on the other your family/friends may be left floundering about wondering what you would have wanted. One church acquaintance specified everything down to the nth degree, even choosing her coffin and paying for everything, without telling her family. She thought she was helping them, they were upset because they had wanted to do this one last thing for her and felt deprived.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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Can I ask perhaps insensitively why one would care? I can understand if there are people that I care about who would want funeral x, knowing it to be a representation of what I would have wanted. In that case specifying in advance gives them some protection.
Or if one knows that the bereaved will be grateful for the direction to save quarrels and uncertainty.
But on the other hand if my guess is that the people I'll leave behind mostly want funeral y, and the few that might want x would cope with it, then why not let them have y?
Perhaps there is an element of sending a message from beyond the grave - "this is who I am (was)" - that we feel is important to us. If that is the case we should think carefully about the message.
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
I intend to request the final chorale from Bach's St John Passion. It isn't too difficult for a church choir and I don't mind if it's a recording.
Oddly enough, I had been contemplating exactly that. Odd, really, that I have never heard it used in that way. It seems so very appropriate.
Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on
:
you know, it just never occurred to me to give this any thought! my family all around (as well as most of my closest friends) are all of the same faith, and therefore we all just sort of assume that the ceremony would be that prescribed by our Church.
But, I can certainly see where it could be an issue if one's family is NOT of the same faith. heck, this could even become the case for me in the future, as my kids move on to independent lives. I think they would assume that whatever their faith (or lack thereof) when I die it's MY faith that would determine the religious ceremony associated with my death.
I can see where someone might think that the ceremony is more about the bereaved than the departed, but that's not what I believe. I think that, sacramentally etc. it's about the deceased. it's about the loved ones left behind only in the sense that it provides some level of comfort. but it's not about THEIR faith (or lack of faith). and even more so for any guests invited to the event. I don't see how that could possibly be selfish! if I invite someone to a religious ceremony, then they should expect that it would be a religious ceremony... which may or may not be THEIR religion. if they would like to remember me in some other way, they are free to do so, but that would be a separate event. I can't even imagine, personally, being offended that someone's funeral didn't meet MY preferences.
As someone pointed out, of course, there is the obnoxious practice of using a funeral as a means of sheep-gathering. I have not personally ever encountered this, but I think that would be highly offensive regardless of the faith involved. just as using a wedding or any other such life event often attended by people from outside the faith of the "primary participant", whether it's baptism, wedding, or funeral... it's just not right (in my mind) to make it about getting others to convert. I think that any clergy member who would do such a thing is being extremely disrespectful, and frankly is more likely to be pushing more people away than drawing them in!!! I know that if that happened at a funeral I was attending, I'd be sure to steer clear of that religion from then on!
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
I have one request: If you're going to leave predeath instructions re: your service, make sure you think thru what precisely that's going to look like/require.
I still have nightmares about the "funeral from hell" I officiated at, which was hellish for a whole lotta reasons, but mostly due to the warring survivors divided into two openly hostile camps. The service was to be held in the large (800 seat) main sanctuary-- but sadly, less than a dozen people attended. Those, again, divided into two sides so sitting far apart from one another (so perhaps it was good it was such a large venue after all).
The deceased had requested two beloved hymns be sung. I introduced the first one, gave the hymn #, the organist provided the accompaniment... but the stone-faced mourners didn't even crack the hymnal. For the 2nd hymn I gave more specific instructions, thinking perhaps they're unchurched and don't know the drill. I told them which of the two books in front of them was the hymnal, told them how to find the hymn #, how to follow along, asked the organist to play it through once so they'd get the melody, and reminded them this hymn had been requested by the deceased.
Nothing. Which left me, a pitiful singer in the best of circumstances, singing a solo of...
In the Garden. A hymn only a professional opera singer should attempt.
The results... (shudders)
[ 23. April 2012, 22:40: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
Posted by Enigma (# 16158) on
:
Hearing all this I'm thinking of planning a funeral rehearsal so I can organise everyone. Oops - I won't be there for the final event!! I don't know who else will be there either so the cast is not fixed!!
I believe that funerals really are for those that are left behind. We can make our wishes known if there are any but, in the end, I am content to trust whoever is left to celebrate (or otherwise) my life however they feel will help them.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
If there's to be Communion/Mass, most people can sort out on their own whether they want to receive or not.
My own experience working in a church is that for a well-attended funeral (e.g., one where lots of co-workers and extended family & friends attend), maybe about a third of the people will receive Communion, so those who don't certainly feel no pressure; they're in good company.
I've found (in the UK that is - I've no experience elsewhere), that less than 10% of those attending will take communion at a funeral. In one (very well attended) funeral at a very high anglican church, only 6 out of 400 communed.
For that reason, I'm very wary of including communion, as it can be seen as excluding the vast majority of people attending. ISTM that it can come over as a kind of insider type participation, and whilst I agree that non partakers are in good company and in the majority, they are still excluded from what is major part of the service. Yes there's the mystery and hope and ceremony and all that but i wonder what it really says to the average man/woman in the pew.
FWIW in my own funeral there's very little to cover that isn't written down. A couple of hymns, a gospel reading (the latter end of Romans 8 or the beginning of John 15), some thoughts on the love of God and hope of Christ. No mention of my life and "acheivements" - except perhaps to reveal the alter egos of ExclamationMark and *******?
Cremation and ashes to be scattered on the veg garden around the broad beans to keep off the chocolate spot fungus. Some use at last!
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
:
As a (more-or-less) faithful churchgoer in a milieu of agnostic and atheist family, I long ago gave instructions to my powers of attorney as to what I would wish. I prepaid the funeral, selected the basic casket and all the little bits that attach to a funeral. I even selected the celebrant (pro temp). The one thing I have not done is selected music. Since it will be held in my parish church, I hope that they would use standard funerary music.
I hope I haven't forgotten anything, and hope that my family will have a real knees up after the funeral somewhere meaningful.
I have left enough money in my will for a representative to go scatter my ashes near my Indian home.
I also have a set of instructions on what to do if I die in India, and must formalise that before my next trip.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I can see where someone might think that the ceremony is more about the bereaved than the departed, but that's not what I believe. I think that, sacramentally etc. it's about the deceased.
The outline of the liturgy is for the deceased, but there are choices of hymns, psalms, etc. which can comfort the bereaved.
My husband died of a freak accident while our daughters were still teenagers. While we waited in the hospital for his heart to stop, we chose psalms and hymns for his funeral. This was the last thing we could do for him.
One of our daughters chose the hymn "Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee" because he liked it so much. I chose "I Walk the King's Highway" because it seemed to reflect the whole situation.
Moo
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
I've been touched by many of the comments, thank you. I can see that the funeral is for both the departed and the bereaved.
If invited to a religious funeral we know what bias we're accepting, but consider obvious attemps at proselytism unacceptable.
If invited to a 'civil ceremony', not only do I consider obvious attemps at proselytism unacceptable, but unless it is made clear that the celebrant is coming from a particular angle I think that some attempt should be made to make whatever is said inclusive.
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
:
I hope my funeral will be a small, very simple, inexpensive - I'd rather any unnecessary cost would go to the living - occasion at the crematorium, with a Humanist friend/celebrant there if my sons feel that would help, followed by a place arranged for anyone who might want to say a few words to each other about me with some food and drink available. I'd quite like, 'cock-eyed Optimist' to be played, but that might jar a bit!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Other vchoices of music (Poulenc's Stabat Mater and Gloria, or Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No 3 played by Luganski) are a bit long, so I'll leave it to my sons to have something if needed.
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
:
Ooops, sorry! I've already posted ... hmmm, perhaps it's time I shuffled off!!!!!
Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I can see where someone might think that the ceremony is more about the bereaved than the departed, but that's not what I believe. I think that, sacramentally etc. it's about the deceased.
The outline of the liturgy is for the deceased, but there are choices of hymns, psalms, etc. which can comfort the bereaved.
My husband died of a freak accident while our daughters were still teenagers. While we waited in the hospital for his heart to stop, we chose psalms and hymns for his funeral. This was the last thing we could do for him.
One of our daughters chose the hymn "Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee" because he liked it so much. I chose "I Walk the King's Highway" because it seemed to reflect the whole situation.
Moo
not an option in an Orthodox ceremony.. about the only thing that varies is the sermon (eulogy?) I mean, there are some practices that can vary, but the services are set (more than one service, actually).
there is usually a wake of some sort after the burial (or after the funeral if the burial is to be somewhere far away, or at another time for some reason). There is an opportunity to do all sorts of things. for my father's funeral (wake) I had put together a computer slide show of various photos of him through the years. we had music playing in the background that was a collection of his favorite pieces. Later my sister, kids and I also sang a song that he particularly liked (but remember, this is not during the service, but rather the wake).
I guess in my own, personal experience the funeral (religious ceremony) is more for the departed, but the wake is more for the loved ones left behind.
We did have one "add on" during the burrial service due to my father being burried in a military cemetary. normally they don't allow grave side services. they have a special pavilion for the service, and they also do a formal military ceremony involving the playing of Taps, and a very ritualistic folding of the flag that covered the casket and handing it to my mother. it was beautiful... and all done after the end of the required religious ceremony. However, because it was not at the grave site, there were some things that were not done in the usual order. the priest did accompany the body to the actual grave site and did those things there (consecrating the ground, since it is not part of an Orthodox cemetery).
I realize that everyone has their own traditions (including a more customizable format). But I have to say I personally find a great deal of comfort in the very structured way we do things (we the ability to pretty much do whatever we feel during the wake, and also adjust to unusual situations when necessary).
Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on
:
I have given both my executor and family explicit instructions in the event of my death. I have requested: to be cremated as soon as possible after death, no visitation period; ashes to be given to my partner to be disposed as he wishes and he may give to my family if he wishes; if my family really want some kind of public or private religious service, they can contact either the Ukrainian Catholic deacon of the local mission or a Episcopal priest I happen to know, but absolutely no Roman Catholic ministers of any sort. I also stipulated that my partner has last call on all funeral arrangements. This letter was notarized and attached to my will. Hopefully, my family will not contest my wishes.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
My father approached the organist some years ago and asked if he knew several favourite Bach pieces as Dad wanted them played at his funeral The organist, somewhat startled asked if there was something he should know about Dad's health! Dad lived for another 7 years and the organist dutifully played the Bach. Dad, being a very organised man, had also put together exactly what he wanted sung and said at his funeral. It was helpful at his sudden death to be able to pick up the folder containing his instructions and hand it over to the minister. It was a wonderful service and full of everything dad held most dear.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
:
This is exactly the reason why I said upthread that I have written some instructions about my funeral – I don’t want to cause unnecessary trouble to those left in charge of it.
The first Mr Marten died quite soon after being diagnosed with terminal cancer. I was in no state to organise things and it was a relief when my parish priest asked if I’d like the full works (ie a Requiem) for him – oh yes, please! This was an enormous comfort to me and a great help in the healing process. Mr Marten had always said that he wanted to be cremated, so his ashes are in our church’s garden of remembrance, and I pass them every time I’m at church. I knew he would have liked a party, so that’s what we had – a joyful wake, when friends old and new got together to remember him.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
Two really good friends died last summer (two months apart). Both were atheists. Neither had children.
One family is wholly atheist (reacting against a fundamentalist upbringing), the other family her Mom is Christian, I don't know about the others. Both families told the friends don't come here, there will be no funeral, only a brief burial."
I was struck by (a) the assumption a one hour funeral is worth a flight but a graveside 10 minutes isn't, as if the length or formality of the event is what matters (b) the lack of goodbye ceremony, which I thought fills a basic human need.
But I suppose both saw no point to the expense, didn't want to plan an event (both deaths were people in their 60s but seemingly in good health until a sudden illness that quickly led to death), didn't want to deal with non-family (advise on where to stay or eat, provide maps to the cemetery etc).
*I* missed the ceremonial goodbye, whatever the ceremony might be. The one in town here, I asked to be invited to the grave-side but they didn't, no idea if they wanted just family there or were afraid I'd say a prayer or just in their own shock and grief forgot.
In the "old days" all the friends gathered to help the family, celebrate the life. We live more scattered lives, and less formal life styles, I wonder if "no funeral" will become more common.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I wonder if "no funeral" will become more common.
I hope not.
For me, when close loved ones have died the funeral has been an important pivotal time, prior to which the numbness, distress, anger and tears interweave the dreadful administration, and beyond which life must go on without the person concerned.
When not so close to the person who died, it has been a time for connecting with those who were, in empathy and support. When others have done the same for me it has been greatly appreciated, and bonds of friendship become stronger.
We can surely take some quiet time out of our busy lives to mark the occasion and reflect when someone in our circle dies, whether or not we think that they might live on somewhere. Human relationships are more important than everything else, bar relationship with God.
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on
:
I'm a Catholic in a non Catholic, very anti-Catholic funeral, and though I'm still young, I have left funeral directions. In the end, it'll basically be two funerals. One that I would like and which I'm sure my own parish would like to provide, and one for them. I've asked for vespers of the dead to be sung the evening before my funeral, and a simple sung mass in black vestments in the early morning. I've picked the music and set apart some funds to pay for singers if our choir can't handle it.
After that, my family get me for their own funeral and repast. I've picked the songs for that and specified which ministers they can choose from*. I'm not a celebrity of any sort, But I do have very, very many close Catholic friends even outside my parish,so I would like a Catholic funeral even if not for me (Though it is an holy and good thought to pray for the dead)Because I'm sure it would be very distressing for them.
*This might seem odd,but my mother's family and father's family are from different churches,the congregations of which do not entirely get along. I thought it best to specify my self and squash any possible arguments.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I'm a Catholic in a non Catholic, very anti-Catholic funeral, and though I'm still young, I have left funeral directions. In the end, it'll basically be two funerals. One that I would like and which I'm sure my own parish would like to provide, and one for them. I've asked for vespers of the dead to be sung the evening before my funeral, and a simple sung mass in black vestments in the early morning. I've picked the music and set apart some funds to pay for singers if our choir can't handle it.
After that, my family get me for their own funeral and repast. I've picked the songs for that and specified which ministers they can choose from*. I'm not a celebrity of any sort, But I do have very, very many close Catholic friends even outside my parish,so I would like a Catholic funeral even if not for me (Though it is an holy and good thought to pray for the dead)Because I'm sure it would be very distressing for them.
*This might seem odd,but my mother's family and father's family are from different churches,the congregations of which do not entirely get along. I thought it best to specify my self and squash any possible arguments.
It seems as if you're acting as the referee in advance. I understand why, but feel saddened by the position they've put you in.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
In the "old days" all the friends gathered to help the family, celebrate the life. We live more scattered lives, and less formal life styles, I wonder if "no funeral" will become more common
I think it is becoming more frequent. As I am coming to the age where one does a quick scan of the obits, I notice in the Toronto paper that every 5th or 6th notice refers to "no funeral" or "private funeral."
Somewhat unrelated, while Jewish families often post notices of the unveiling of the headstone (is it 30 days after?), month's mind or anniversary services are only exceptionally noticed. One of my friends, an assistant minion at the local francophone RC outlet, tells me that anniversary masses are getting rarer and rarer, and that few ask for the month's mind (which he always recommends, so that the family can be comfortable proceeding to the next stage of grieving-- he also tries to persuade widows to have an anniversary Mass, so that they can be comfortable being open to a new relationship).
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
In the "old days" all the friends gathered to help the family, celebrate the life. We live more scattered lives, and less formal life styles, I wonder if "no funeral" will become more common
I think it is becoming more frequent. As I am coming to the age where one does a quick scan of the obits, I notice in the Toronto paper that every 5th or 6th notice refers to "no funeral" or "private funeral."
Somewhat unrelated, while Jewish families often post notices of the unveiling of the headstone (is it 30 days after?), month's mind or anniversary services are only exceptionally noticed. One of my friends, an assistant minion at the local francophone RC outlet, tells me that anniversary Masses are getting rarer and rarer, and that few ask for the month's mind (which he always recommends, so that the family can be comfortable proceeding to the next stage of grieving-- he also tries to persuade widows to have an anniversary Mass, so that they can be comfortable being open to a new relationship).
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
The funerals of family & friends I have attended have been meaningful, but MOST family and friends who have died I was not reasonably able to attend the funeral even if I learned of the death before the funeral date.
One family funeral was a month after the death and we were able to buy reasonably priced flights, make arrangements at work, coordinate on car rentals and sharing motel rooms, lots of family came. But most funerals take place within a few days of death, a last minute flight is horribly expensive, so only immediate family come. (Often I was not told of an aunt's or cousin's death until the day of the funeral - to late to look for a flight - because of the assumption no one would or should go to the expense of flying just for a funeral.)
Although funerals are meaningful, those of us with widely scattered friends and family have to get used to adjusting to a death without the help of a funeral. After half a dozen deaths with no personal attendance at the funeral, maybe a funeral starts seeming less -- what's the word, valid, helpful, worth the cost and energy? Less needed? Why bother?
In my life experience not being able to attend a funeral is "more normal" than being at the funeral! If others are similarly learning to adjust to death without the help of a funeral, won't funerals naturally become less common? (Are we as a society finding other equally valuable ways to adjust to a loved one's death, if so what are those ways?)
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The funerals of family & friends I have attended have been meaningful, but MOST family and friends who have died I was not reasonably able to attend the funeral even if I learned of the death before the funeral date.
One family funeral was a month after the death and we were able to buy reasonably priced flights, make arrangements at work, coordinate on car rentals and sharing motel rooms, lots of family came. But most funerals take place within a few days of death, a last minute flight is horribly expensive, so only immediate family come. (Often I was not told of an aunt's or cousin's death until the day of the funeral - to late to look for a flight - because of the assumption no one would or should go to the expense of flying just for a funeral.)
Although funerals are meaningful, those of us with widely scattered friends and family have to get used to adjusting to a death without the help of a funeral. After half a dozen deaths with no personal attendance at the funeral, maybe a funeral starts seeming less -- what's the word, valid, helpful, worth the cost and energy? Less needed? Why bother?
In my life experience not being able to attend a funeral is "more normal" than being at the funeral! If others are similarly learning to adjust to death without the help of a funeral, won't funerals naturally become less common? (Are we as a society finding other equally valuable ways to adjust to a loved one's death, if so what are those ways?)
Two issues arise here for me:
Firstly, it implies that the funeral is only for the bereaved, and not for the person who has died.
Secondly, it raises the question as to whether we retain close relationships with people we live far away from. Have we already grieved the loss of the relationship, so that we don't feel the need to mourn ( surely deeper than 'adjusting to death'?) when they die?
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
The "no funeral" idea is utterly new to me. I've not seen it before. It seems, frankly, horrible. And funerals also seem to be the last communal event to be lost. I suspect they will outlive weddings and baptisms - at least as events to which the community in general go, not just close family.
In the last few months I've been to four funerals of neighbours I didn't really know that well. Two of them church members, two not.
One of the deceased lived alone and had almost no money and no remaining family apart from a mother well over 90 years old and, apparently, in very poor health in hospital and likely to die soon herself. The bloke was perhaps only one or two steps up the ladder from being a homeless alcoholic. The landlady of the local puband some of the regualars there raised enough for a funeral, and about twenty or thirty of us went to it.
The other three funerals were all so well attended that not eveybody could fit in to the church or chapel. But one of those was also partly paid for by friends and neighbours because the family didn't have enough. At least where I live not only are people still going to funerals they are concerned that their friends and neighbours get a decent funeral.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
My mother has been gone six years, and my father will surely be gone within another six. They were both staunchly Catholic all their lives and brought us up to be so, although none of us are any longer with the exception of one of my sisters.
I don't want a funeral. I'm sure no one will mind with the possible exception of my one sister who is still a practicing Catholic.
I want to be cremated with no fuss or ceremony, and then for my ashes to be scattered over a place that my friends know has given me pleasure.
I once mentioned the latter sentiment to a good friend who is now himself deceased, and his reply was, "What? Do you think your brother is going to hop on a plane and come out here to do that for you?"
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Secondly, it raises the question as to whether we retain close relationships with people we live far away from. Have we already grieved the loss of the relationship, so that we don't feel the need to mourn ( surely deeper than 'adjusting to death'?) when they die?
Some folks live close to family and lifelong friends, in USA lots of people don't. Some personalities drop friendships when they move away, pick up new friends in the new location. Others maintain ties for decades, stay in touch via phone, mail, email, facebook, rumor, plan to meet for a vacation, delight in each other when they do get together even if rarely.
Some relationships are broken or gradually dimmed by distance, others pick right up as if there had been no break of years.
But I think there's more than relationship at issue. Look how many people grieved Diana, even having never met her. People can be important to us because they affected our lives, and their death - the loss of their continued effect of us in some way - causes in us grief. Different in kind or degree from death of our nearest friend, but still a genuine sense of loss.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I've heard it said that men often value ancient friendships, even when they haven't seen these old friends for decades. Women have far more friends, but perhaps they're more willing to let friends go if there's no longer any useful interaction left.
Is there any truth in this? Certainly, my father willing attends the funerals of old work colleagues and school friends he hasn't seen for donkeys years. I don't think my mother would be so interested in doing that. (At the moment she's not in the position to attend many funerals, as she's abroad and caring for my very elderly housebound grandmother.)
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've heard it said that men often value ancient friendships, even when they haven't seen these old friends for decades. Women have far more friends, but perhaps they're more willing to let friends go if there's no longer any useful interaction left.
Is there any truth in this?
Maybe introvert's hang on to friends, extroverts easily go make new ones so don't hang on to ones that became geographically distant? No idea, just wondering.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
Thank you for your post, Ken. It's good to hear that there are still people who think it important & care enough to give the deceased a decent funeral.
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I don't want a funeral. I'm sure no one will mind with the possible exception of my one sister who is still a practicing Catholic.
I want to be cremated with no fuss or ceremony, and then for my ashes to be scattered over a place that my friends know has given me pleasure.
My only issue with this is that it denies your sister and anyone else who might mourn your passing the benefit of a funeral, which is for many people an important stage in the grieving process.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
My only issue with this is that it denies your sister and anyone else who might mourn your passing the benefit of a funeral, which is for many people an important stage in the grieving process.
My mother's sister, the last of her generation, died more than a year ago. She did not want a funeral and wanted to have her ashes sprinkled at the beach where she had spent many happy days.
I would have liked a funeral. There was a family get-together a few weeks after her death, but that's not the same as being with other family members at the funeral and then going to someone's house to talk to each other. I felt that there was something missing.
Moo
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Secondly, it raises the question as to whether we retain close relationships with people we live far away from. Have we already grieved the loss of the relationship, so that we don't feel the need to mourn ( surely deeper than 'adjusting to death'?) when they die?
Some folks live close to family and lifelong friends, in USA lots of people don't. Some personalities drop friendships when they move away, pick up new friends in the new location. Others maintain ties for decades, stay in touch via phone, mail, email, facebook, rumor, plan to meet for a vacation, delight in each other when they do get together even if rarely.
Some relationships are broken or gradually dimmed by distance, others pick right up as if there had been no break of years.
But I think there's more than relationship at issue. Look how many people grieved Diana, even having never met her. People can be important to us because they affected our lives, and their death - the loss of their continued effect of us in some way - causes in us grief. Different in kind or degree from death of our nearest friend, but still a genuine sense of loss.
I agree that it's not straightforward. In the UK too there's a lot of people movement, so that families and friends often don't continue to live near to each other as they would have in the past.
I wonder at what point in a relationship we wouldn't bother to go to the funeral, what distance apart we would need to be whether in miles or in closeness, and what attitude to the possibility of an afterlife would make a difference.
Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on
:
I am guessing I'll have a Christian funeral if I die before my wife, because Christianity is important to her. And I want her to be as comforted as possible.
But I also think that non-religious funerals can be nice for people who don't believe, and to be honest, I don't believe in heaven so the only reason I'd want heaven mentioned at my funeral is so the people mourning will feel comforted.
To the OP: I'm sorry that was such a bad experience. It sounds like you don't have hope about non-religious ceremonies or celebrants but they can be wonderful depending on what the person needs.
Having grown up Catholic my aunt's funeral a couple months ago the familiarity of the Mass was really nice, even though I didn't go for the actual theology of it. I've always appreciated the way Mass stays the same, and it was comforting at a time where all I could do was go through the motions.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:
I am guessing I'll have a Christian funeral if I die before my wife, because Christianity is important to her. And I want her to be as comforted as possible.
But I also think that non-religious funerals can be nice for people who don't believe, and to be honest, I don't believe in heaven so the only reason I'd want heaven mentioned at my funeral is so the people mourning will feel comforted.
To the OP: I'm sorry that was such a bad experience. It sounds like you don't have hope about non-religious ceremonies or celebrants but they can be wonderful depending on what the person needs.
Having grown up Catholic my aunt's funeral a couple months ago the familiarity of the Mass was really nice, even though I didn't go for the actual theology of it. I've always appreciated the way Mass stays the same, and it was comforting at a time where all I could do was go through the motions.
I understand the desire for a funeral reflecting our beliefs or lack of them. I recognise that in the same way that a Christian funeral will be weighted with the Christian view of how death fits into life and afterlife, so other funerals may be weighted according to various beliefs. How much this is the 'celebrants' belief rather than that of the deceased may be debatable.
I went into my first experience of this kind of funeral with an open mind. Although I would have preferred a priest as a celebrant, as long as someone who attends is a believer, prayers will be said, albeit silently, for the deceased.
It was the lack of depth of the services, and in particular the obvious pretence of sincerity, which disappointed me. My grief for the deceased was not assisted by the 'service'. It's not 'comfort' but a profound sense of the mystery of death and the moving on of the person who has died that is missing.
I'm concerned that the generation of people who are dying are unaware that their funerals may not be Christian services.
I wonder whether bereaved people who are 'unchurched', and unaware that they may request a priest, are being pointed by funeral directors toward 'civil celebrants' as a matter of course, for whatever reason.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
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I currently have provisions in my affairs for two memorials, approximately 600 miles apart. The provisions include financial aspects, because I try not to be that much of a jerk.
As I am still in the 'very young' category, and I am the one who moved away from my very large extended family in California. I couldn't make it to my grandfather's funeral a few years ago for this reason, and I don't want my three living grandparents to have to try and make the long journey north. But I also don't want my community in Oregon to have no chance to grieve.
Plus, this way I can have both my bells and smells full bore requiem with beer and Italian sodas afterwards, and my stoic Wesleyan hymn sandwich followed by good strong coffee and cake with buttercream icing!
If someone doesn't want to attend either of my memorials because it's religious (which is a possibility, I do live in Oregon), there'll probably be a meetup down at my local amongst a small, select group of rascals and scoundrels. I've never shied away from nor hid my religious beliefs, so no one should be surprised.
(My earthly remains, however, won't be attending any of these events. It's going to be hanging out at work so the med students can practice.)
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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I like your thinking Spiffy, to try to cater for everyone before you go.
You know you'll get the funeral(s) you want. The last thing people can do for you is simply to turn up.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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I thought I'd resurrect this thread to let you know that this week 14th-20th May is Dying Matters Awareness Week. The website is:
http://www.dyingmatters.org/
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If I am honest, the only thing I want regarding my funeral is that I am dead. Funerals are not for the person who has passed, but for those who are left.
This is a common position, but it is not a universal one. I am a high Anglican and very much believe that prayer for the dead -- and supremely the offering of a Requiem Mass -- is worthy and worthwhile. I see the offering of this Mass not only as the supreme way of acknowledging the Resurrection in the midst of grief but also as a very concrete thing that the bereaved can do on behalf of the one who has died.
Common Worship has a wonderful introduction to the funeral service (I'm not sure if it's shared with any other traditions):
quote:
We have come here today
to remember before God our brother/sister N;
to give thanks for his/her life;
to commend him/her to God our merciful redeemer and judge;
to commit his/her body to be buried/cremated,
and to comfort one another in our grief.
So the funeral, from my point of view (and I'm certainly not saying this is the only conceivable point of view) is for the bereaved and genuinely and really for the dead person as well.
Yes, I was bothered by this attitude as well - very much a product of rationalism and Protestantism, but not the way I see it at all! Thanks for putting us right!
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