Thread: We choose Depression? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=023021
Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
Hard on the heels of the 'Ex-Gay Bus Ad' saga here is another Evangelical this time deciding that Depression is our own fault.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/26/god-cure-depression-malcolm-bowden

quote:
Michael Bowden claims that depression and many other mental illnesses are "very deliberately decided" by the person suffering from them and that the former is a "behavioural problem, rooted in pride, self-centredness, and self-pity". The proposed solution? To submit ourselves to the Christian God in total humility, and to find peace with this deity through living our lives for others.
Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that there's an extremely active Hell thread on this very topic. I'm honestly not sure how much rational, Purgatorial debate you might get on this one. I wish you luck.
 
Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :
 
I will briefly play devil's advocate and say that to the uninformed outsider depression can seem to be a choice. What so used to be infuriating about Lady J's occasional depressed times was that I discerned absolutely no effort to fight all the negative feelings she was having; therefore, I felt, she must be choosing.

But because my regard for Lady J and my trust in her judgement told me she would not be making that kind of choice, I learned to look beyond the surface level perception and understand it much better. And now over to the Hell thread.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
He's got his sins wrong. The traditional one for depression wasn't pride, it was sloth.
 
Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??
Yes. It is called sex. I recommend it. [Smile]

Though the manufacturers usually cannot control the nature of use of the subsequent product, life. In this case, one could posit misuse.
 
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Isn't there a similar Hell thread about this?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Isn't there a similar Hell thread about this?
Yes. It was already mentioned in the first 2 replies.
 
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Oops [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on :
 
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up.

I know that many people suffer clinical depression about which they have no choice, but I also must think that there is a segment of the "depressed" population that choose it in one sense or another.

Some people are ill, some people are just whiners, in other words.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up.

I know that many people suffer clinical depression about which they have no choice, but I also must think that there is a segment of the "depressed" population that choose it in one sense or another.

Some people are ill, some people are just whiners, in other words.
I think what you're describing here is the distinction between "clinical depression" and something like "a grumpy disposition". Unfortunately, many people, including those behind this ad campaign, fail to make that distinction. And the failure to do so causes enormous harm-- possibly even life-threatening harm if it isolates and shames depressed patients in a way that causes them to delay getting needed treatment.
 
Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up.

I know that many people suffer clinical depression about which they have no choice, but I also must think that there is a segment of the "depressed" population that choose it in one sense or another.

Some people are ill, some people are just whiners, in other words.
Why must you think it? Do you have any experience or qualifications to substantiate this judgement? Otherwise, this observation goes in the same box as the original piece.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
This is a common view in New Age circles, that somehow we choose emotional states, and even physical illness. I remember being harangued by someone, who claimed that I had chosen to get flu.

But all of this is pure assertion and anecdote.

Is there actually any peer-reviewed research in some psychological field, which demonstrates it? Then I would sit up, and pay attention to this idea.

Simply asserting it is uninteresting really. I might as well assert the opposite point of view, equally unconvincingly.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This is a common view in New Age circles, that somehow we choose emotional states, and even physical illness. I remember being harangued by someone, who claimed that I had chosen to get flu.

But all of this is pure assertion and anecdote.

Is there actually any peer-reviewed research in some psychological field, which demonstrates it? Then I would sit up, and pay attention to this idea.
Nope. Quite the opposite, in fact. I kind of wish this article about scientific, peer-reviewed article about functional MRI studies of brain anatomy in people with major depression even has pictures to illustrate:

quote:
Within the anatomical networks implicated in emotional processing by other types of evidence, these BF and metabolic data demonstrate that major depression is associated with reversible, mood state–dependent, neurophysiological abnormalities in some structures and irreversible, trait-like abnormalities in other structures.

 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
That article is behind a dollar wall.

I still don't see how that suggests that depression is chosen.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Hard on the heels of the 'Ex-Gay Bus Ad' saga here is another Evangelical this time deciding that Depression is our own fault.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/26/god-cure-depression-malcolm-bowden

quote:
Michael Bowden claims that depression and many other mental illnesses are "very deliberately decided" by the person suffering from them and that the former is a "behavioural problem, rooted in pride, self-centredness, and self-pity". The proposed solution? To submit ourselves to the Christian God in total humility, and to find peace with this deity through living our lives for others.
Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??
There is patristic basis for depression as both choice and conscious sin. As somebody who has struggled with depression and lost a mother to it, I have difficulty with this sort of expression. I don't know whether the word commonly translated as depression is what we today understand as clinical depression or whether it was something else, or indeed whether it is the same but understandings have developed, or indeed whether the bald statement is accurate as it stands and it's just a difficult pill to swallow. The point is that this is nothing new and has been part of Christian tradition for a good many centuries.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.

I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up.

I know that many people suffer clinical depression about which they have no choice, but I also must think that there is a segment of the "depressed" population that choose it in one sense or another.

Some people are ill, some people are just whiners, in other words.
I saw that programme. In fact, i always watch it as it is better than Radio 4's Thought for the Day because anyone can be on it, not just the great and the good.

I thought the atheist, the night before, was better than the Christian.

However, the Christian does have a point about our attitudes, our living for others and serving people. For many in our me-first culture, that's quite an alien concept.

I still thought he was an arse, however.

[ 26. April 2012, 15:51: Message edited by: leo ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Michael Astley

That's a good point. Despair was, and still is, a mortal sin, presumably because it represents a giving up of hope that God will help you.

However, to intertwine this with 'counselling' is rather alarming, I would say, and represents a kind of philosophical confusion. If I go to see a psychotherapist or counsellor, I don't expect to be coached in theology really.

It's even more interesting, if we think that counselling and therapy are in some ways secularized versions of confession and absolution, so I suppose very few people expect or want that to be desecularized all over again.

[ 26. April 2012, 15:55: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
You can certainly choose to deceive yourself, and Bowden has demonstrated this. It usually leads to sin in yourself and can lead to sin in others (you've got to fool yourself before you can fool others) although it isn't for me to accuse Bowden of anything in particular.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Michael Astley

That's a good point. Despair was, and still is, a mortal sin, presumably because it represents a giving up of hope that God will help you.

However, to intertwine this with 'counselling' is rather alarming, I would say, and represents a kind of philosophical confusion. If I go to see a psychotherapist or counsellor, I don't expect to be coached in theology really.

It's even more interesting, if we think that counselling and therapy are in some ways secularized versions of confession and absolution, so I suppose very few people expect or want that to be desecularized all over again.
Indeed.

So the questions seem to surround whether despair and depression are the same thing or to what extent they overlap and feed each other in certain instances. Counsellors who are also Christians often have a particular understanding of this. I know two such, one of whom is my godson. It may be a conversation worth having with him.
 
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
It is clear that what some people thought was a free choice is actually innate ( see "Liberals and Conservatives Think Differently") , I would beg to disagree with the obnoxious person quoted in the OP.

He may have been predestined to be a sunny-disposition-but-nasty-judgmentalist sort of person, but that doesn't allow him to impose his unhappy theology on the rest of us.

I am quite sure that, if he told me this flasehood directly, I could explain it to him in more basic terms (it wouldn't hurt much, honest) but the poor dear might then become depressed because the world didn't pay attention to him above all others - one of those "Christians-are-always-persecuted" whiners.

But I don't think that the depression for which I am being medicated would be improved by the presence of that kind of Christian.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Michael Astley

That's a good point. Despair was, and still is, a mortal sin, presumably because it represents a giving up of hope that God will help you.

However, to intertwine this with 'counselling' is rather alarming, I would say, and represents a kind of philosophical confusion. If I go to see a psychotherapist or counsellor, I don't expect to be coached in theology really.

It's even more interesting, if we think that counselling and therapy are in some ways secularized versions of confession and absolution, so I suppose very few people expect or want that to be desecularized all over again.
Indeed.

So the questions seem to surround whether despair and depression are the same thing or to what extent they overlap and feed each other in certain instances. Counsellors who are also Christians often have a particular understanding of this. I know two such, one of whom is my godson. It may be a conversation worth having with him.
I would say it's a minefield. I am a Christian, and was a psychotherapist for 30 years, and basically treated it as a secular field. It would be crass in the middle of a session with a depressed person to announce that they were committing a mortal sin. And also counter-productive.

But this is not a problem if you have been trained in client-centred methods, where you are not there to impose your views, but to listen to theirs. Thus I worked with many atheists, with no problems in the work with them.

[ 26. April 2012, 16:17: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That article is behind a dollar wall.

I still don't see how that suggests that depression is chosen.
Ack, sorry, I'm logged in to my work computer and we get access. And I did say it suggests the opposite of depression being chosen.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Spiffy

Yes, sorry, I did think your 'nope' was odd, but it wasn't yours, it was an interpretation of mine, and an incorrect one.
 
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
... I believe that the single most important factor in the quality of my day is the outlook I choose when I wake up. ...
The mere fact that you can choose proves you are not depressed. You need to imagine a state of mind where no matter how hard you try, you cannot change your outlook. That's depression. That's a mood disorder. Imagine a day, or a year, or a lifetime of productive work, accomplishments and experiences, friends and family, the security of your community, hobbies and interests, and not feeling any pleasure or enjoyment or satisfaction from any of it. Or worse, feeling that it was all meaningless or badly done or a failure.

Standard cognitive behaviour advice is to get up and do whatever activities are possible, regardless of mood. In other words, someone can be trying really hard and *still* be in a desperately miserable mood. At first, this can lead to strange sights, like a person crying and exercising at the same time, but it eventually bears fruit for many people.

The best thing anyone can do for a depressed person is to spend time or do something with them but NOT expect them to be all perky and cheerful. OliviaG
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
There is certainly the notion of unconscious choice in some analytical circles (psychoanalytical), but this brings up such a cat's cradle of philosophical and psychological issues, that it gives you a head-ache just to mention it.

But if there is unconscious choice, then the conscious ego has a devil of a job to unwind it, since it is not even aware that such a choice has been made.

Example: Freud argued that hypochondria is often an act of sadistic rage on the carer who is attending to the ill person. If this were correct , then the patient would stoutly and genuinely deny that this was so.

But this is the case with many issues. 'I'm not angry', says the client, thumping the arm of the chair.

In relation to depression, many clients don't actually know that they are depressed.
 
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
... But I don't think that the depression for which I am being medicated would be improved by the presence of that kind of Christian.
If there's an element of repressed anger in the depression and the Christian is handy ... [Two face] OliviaG
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
He's got his sins wrong. The traditional one for depression wasn't pride, it was sloth.
Quite.

But, that's not all folks. In addition to sloth, there are despondency, despair, and, the ever-popular, accidie. That's before we move on to sorrow and idle talk.

The Desert Fathers knew what they were up to. This guy is "a committed evangelical Christian," a "true Bible" counsellor, by implication, a "TRUE Christian," and ignorant of his own tradition.

Here is the twattery in full form:
quote:
I consider that depression and many other mental illnesses are very deliberately decided by that person.

My name is Malcolm Bowden [and I'm an asshat of epic proportion and], I’m a committed evangelical Christian, and have been giving true Biblical counselling to many people with mental health problems. And from my experience, I believe that depression is a behavioural problem, rooted in pride, self-centredness, and self-pity.

True Christians, if they accept the Bible as being the Word of God, they will read in there many encouragements to live the full outgoing and loving Christian life. And a Christian, a TRUE Christian, should not ever be depressed, because he should be living his life for others, and he should have that peace of heart with God, when he knows that God has promised him a wonderful future in heaven with him.

Many depressed people turn in on themselves and feel that people are against them, the world’s not going right, they don’t appreciate how hard they’re working, they’re terribly proud of their situation, and try to be perfect in order to impress people, and people aren’t ultimately impressed, and when they suddenly deflate themselves, they fall right back into a pit of depression.

Man is basically so proud and so self-centred, he refuses to come to God in total humility. But that is ultimately what God is seeking from all of us, and we reject His requirements at our peril.
Honest to Pete. What is it with these people.

An evangelical, bible-believing, and, if the blogger cited is to be believed, an "anti-science, young earth creationist." He is so out of touch with, what we may call, Primitive Christianity, that it makes my teeth ache.
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
There is patristic basis for depression as both choice and conscious sin. As somebody who has struggled with depression and lost a mother to it, I have difficulty with this sort of expression. I don't know whether the word commonly translated as depression is what we today understand as clinical depression or whether it was something else, or indeed whether it is the same but understandings have developed, or indeed whether the bald statement is accurate as it stands and it's just a difficult pill to swallow. The point is that this is nothing new and has been part of Christian tradition for a good many centuries.
Perhaps the patristic authors were just plain wrong.
 
Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't know about choosing depression, but I definitely feel that we choose an attitude and choose how to respond to various different situations and circumstances.
This seems to be an important point. We may often disagree politically, but we both believe in free will. Some people don't. Isn't this the unspoken larger issue behind the discussion?

This is a subject of which I know so little that perhaps I shouldn't even comment. I wouldn't doubt that depression sometimes has unavoidable chemical causes, which might be partly genetic. On the other hand, I gather that (1) neurologists are discovering what a flexible and mutable thing the brain is; and (2) depression left untreated tends to get worse. Very possibly, then, a condition that in an advanced stage has discernible biochemical aspects and interferes with life choices does not necessarily begin that way. Do most conscientious physicians believe that the best treatment of depression is merely to send the sufferer out the door with a scrip for some pharmaceutical or other, or isn't counseling also in order? The latter implies that the patient's mental options have a role.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
There is patristic basis for depression as both choice and conscious sin. As somebody who has struggled with depression and lost a mother to it, I have difficulty with this sort of expression. I don't know whether the word commonly translated as depression is what we today understand as clinical depression or whether it was something else, or indeed whether it is the same but understandings have developed, or indeed whether the bald statement is accurate as it stands and it's just a difficult pill to swallow. The point is that this is nothing new and has been part of Christian tradition for a good many centuries.
Perhaps the patristic authors were just plain wrong.
Ah, yes. Sin and choice. I'm thinking that they were not "just plain wrong," but rather cannily characterizing things pretty well, but without the insight of our recently gained science.

When we pray that the Lord will have mercy on us and forgive us our transgressions, those that are both voluntary and involuntary, those that are of word and of deed, and those that are done in knowledge and in ignorance and, nevertheless, to make us worthy to receive him, we acknowledge that it is only sin, corporate and personal, that separates us from him. We need to repent and accept God's approach to us as best we can.

On the spectrum of mental affect from simple sorrow to full-blown clinical depression, we are responsible to redress what we can, however large and however small.

Folk don't willing choose depression. And, to say so, as this asshat, Michael Bowden, has, is a gross offense against charity.


[My name is TSA and I'm addicted to commas.]
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??
Yes. It is called sex. I recommend it. [Smile]
TBH, if it produces shitstains like this, please abstain.

There is nothing even remotely purgatorial that I could say about this guy.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
It is clear that what some people thought was a free choice is actually innate
Not mutually exclusive at all.

Anyway, if the bloke is a Calvinist he sees no contradiction in being predestined for something sinful.
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
The Silent Acolyte, I am confused by what you said. You seem to say two contradictory things.

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
There is patristic basis for depression as both choice and conscious sin.
Perhaps the patristic authors were just plain wrong.
Ah, yes. Sin and choice. I'm thinking that they were not "just plain wrong," but rather cannily characterizing things pretty well, but without the insight of our recently gained science.

When we pray that the Lord will have mercy on us and forgive us our transgressions, those that are both voluntary and involuntary, those that are of word and of deed, and those that are done in knowledge and in ignorance and, nevertheless, to make us worthy to receive him, we acknowledge that it is only sin, corporate and personal, that separates us from him. We need to repent and accept God's approach to us as best we can.

On the spectrum of mental affect from simple sorrow to full-blown clinical depression, we are responsible to redress what we can, however large and however small.

Folk don't willing choose depression. And, to say so, as this asshat, Michael Bowden, has, is a gross offense against charity.
So which is it? "Folk don't willing choose depression" or the patristic authors were "cannily characterizing things pretty well"? With or without "the insight of our recently gained science", "folk don't willing choose depression" doesn't seem compatible with "depression as both choice and conscious sin." Unless perhaps your middle paragraph about asking forgiveness for our involuntary transgressions is meant to include depression as one of those involuntary transgressions? If that's what you mean, ick, ick, and triple ick.

Can you clarify what you meant?
 
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
My own experience has been that my antidepressant and mood stabilizer allow me to even begin to try to fight the depression. Without them, I'm completely powerless.

I was 28 when I finally sought treatment for bipolar illness that I seem to have had since childhood. The reason it took me so long was precisely that I'd been around people like this guy in the OP, and felt guilty about my illness, even though on a deep level I knew it was an illness.

As for the Patristics, they were working in a world without much of the knowledge we have today about the brain, and without the medications we have that work so well. My mood stabilizer immediately cured me of my temper and a lot of swearing that went with it - NO effort at all on my part except swallowing my pills as prescribed.

So much needless suffering and guilt is being promoted by nutcases like the guy in the OP. I wish there was a pill for his kind of crazy.
 
Posted by WhateverTheySay (# 16598) on :
 
As somebody with a serious mental illness, I absolutely reject the utter BS this asshat is spewing. I don't think that anybody could choose to be crippled by depression. Even my depression (that I have managed to come out the other side of) that was the result of me running myself into the ground with delusional behaviour (that since understanding what I did I have not been able to stop beating myself up for being so stupid) was not a choice.

If there was really nothing wrong with people like me (and many others), then how could the pills we take work? My psychiatrist explained to me that my pills are working because they are correcting a chemical imbalance in my brain.

Also if there was nothing wrong with us then wouldn't it be the case that we can get better with just a bit of talk therapy? I was not even in a position to respond at all to talk therapy until I was on the meds that worked. Of course talk therapy is an important part of my recovery, but it can only help me when I am in a position to respond, and through years of trying various things to reduce my anxiety it took the meds I take to get me to that position.

Now I know I am only posting personal experience, but it is that personal experience that means I know what BS that is being spewed in this article. I bet if he ever got depressed his views would change.

People saying things like this just make me angry. [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]
 
Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :
 
"Created sick, commanded to be sound".

Yes I do resent those who simply don't want to help those who find themselves in this situation, and especially those who seem to use their beliefs to try to exacerbate the unhappiness of others.
 
Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
"Folk don't willing choose depression" or the patristic authors were "cannily characterizing things pretty well"? With or without "the insight of our recently gained science", "folk don't willing choose depression" doesn't seem compatible with "depression as both choice and conscious sin."
Please don't assume that ancient people were ignorant idiots. For instance, because books had to be hand-produced and were very rare and expensive, they developed their memories much better. I wouldn't doubt, as well, that because they had no mind-altering drugs as powerful as Prozac etc., they retained practical insights into the psychological causes of mental illness that we have lost. These could be incorporated into the wisdom of pastoral theology with preventative do's and don'ts which might characterize going down harmful paths as "sin," even though most of us don't understand the connection.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
"Folk don't willing choose depression" or the patristic authors were "cannily characterizing things pretty well"? With or without "the insight of our recently gained science", "folk don't willing choose depression" doesn't seem compatible with "depression as both choice and conscious sin."
Please don't assume that ancient people were ignorant idiots. For instance, because books had to be hand-produced and were very rare and expensive, they developed their memories much better. I wouldn't doubt, as well, that because they had no mind-altering drugs as powerful as Prozac etc., they retained practical insights into the psychological causes of mental illness that we have lost. These could be incorporated into the wisdom of pastoral theology with preventative do's and don'ts which might characterize going down harmful paths as "sin," even though most of us don't understand the connection.
You got sources for this assertation?
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Alogon, I'm not assuming that ancient people were ignorant idiots.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Alogon, I'm not assuming that ancient people were ignorant idiots.
I am. But I assume modern people are ignorant idiots, too.

[ 26. April 2012, 22:17: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
 
Posted by Sister Influenza (# 15557) on :
 
I really do not know where to begin with the utter bullshit Bowden is coming out with but here are a few thoughts.

1. Biblical counselling is not psychotherapy and whilst passages of scripture and prayer may help those with mental health issues the mind is something that can go wrong like any other part of us and when that happens it needs to be dealt with by people who are trained and experienced in mental health not in theology.

2. What right has Bowden to judge those he is counselling as being selfish, proud and self pitying, does he have the mind of God to know what are the innermost motivations of another human being. It is moralism at a dangerous level, I would not wish to be counselled by someone who would be sitting judging me in that way.

3. It is dangerous to peddle the idea that as soon as one becomes a Christian everything must go right for you and if you become depressed something is wanting. We don't question people's spirituality when they need an operation, medication or other physical therapy, why judge someone on the basis of their mental health?

4. The Bible is primarily concerned with our relationship with God and others, it is not a diagnostic tool to spot other people's problems.

5. Bowden seems to completely ignore the social, emotional and spiritual background of those he would counsel. You cannot give adequate therapy to someone unless you take in the whole picture of someone's life. This view buys into the illusion that nice, well brought up, balanced and probably middle class people are morally and spiritually superior to someone brought up in environment that has meant they have struggled with difficult circumstances.
 
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... I wouldn't doubt, as well, that because they had no mind-altering drugs as powerful as Prozac etc., they retained practical insights into the psychological causes of mental illness that we have lost. ...
The ancients had access to plenty of mind-altering drugs, starting with alcohol, and including coca, opium, khat, marijuana and probably others I don't know about. Before there were medications, there was self-medication. As for the ancients' insights, they believed my problem was an excess of black bile. OliviaG
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Alogon, I'm not assuming that ancient people were ignorant idiots.
Neither am I. However, I am assuming that they'd never heard of serotonin, or knew how its produced, or understood its role in synapses (in fact, I'm assuming that they'd never heard of synapses either).

It's quite possible for the ancients to have noticed, say, a link between certain types of events that are liable to cause 'reactive depression' and the following mental problems. But that's entirely different from saying that they had a clue what was going on in the brain at a biochemical level.

And no, this doesn't mean I think drugs are the be all and end all either. When I had depression, I was strongly encouraged to do other things rather than simply pop a pill every day and expect to get better. But the drugs, and modern understanding of what's going on at the molecular level, make a difference.

The ancients could easily hit upon some of the activities that are beneficial because they produce serotonin. However, they would have been clueless about that being the reason why the activities helped.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Unless perhaps your middle paragraph about asking forgiveness for our involuntary transgressions is meant to include depression as one of those involuntary transgressions?
Exactly this. Plus the fact that I posit a continuum, as I said above, between sorrow and full-blown neurologically-based depression, with that garden-variety depression that stands between an otherwise healthy graduate student and his completed thesis seated somewhere between the two poles. Drugs are not the end-all and be-all; neither are the techniques of the Fathers.

The fact that I can't see well enough to compose this post is, in some mysterious way, a result of sin. I'm delighted to be able to wear eye glasses to remedy the situation and I don't see this as being evidence of moral weakness on my part.
 
Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
Since the Hell thread seems to have been reduced to insulting this man - a reaction i can fully understand - I'm happy to keep this thread going in Purg while the moderators allow it!

Hell might have been a better place (didnt think i'd ever write that).
 
Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sister Influenza:

1. Biblical counselling is not psychotherapy and whilst passages of scripture and prayer may help those with mental health issues the mind is something that can go wrong like any other part of us and when that happens it needs to be dealt with by people who are trained and experienced in mental health not in theology.

2. What right has Bowden to judge those he is counselling as being selfish, proud and self pitying, does he have the mind of God to know what are the innermost motivations of another human being. It is moralism at a dangerous level, I would not wish to be counselled by someone who would be sitting judging me in that way.

3. It is dangerous to peddle the idea that as soon as one becomes a Christian everything must go right for you and if you become depressed something is wanting. We don't question people's spirituality when they need an operation, medication or other physical therapy, why judge someone on the basis of their mental health?

4. The Bible is primarily concerned with our relationship with God and others, it is not a diagnostic tool to spot other people's problems.

5. Bowden seems to completely ignore the social, emotional and spiritual background of those he would counsel. You cannot give adequate therapy to someone unless you take in the whole picture of someone's life. This view buys into the illusion that nice, well brought up, balanced and probably middle class people are morally and spiritually superior to someone brought up in environment that has meant they have struggled with difficult circumstances. [QUOTE]

Sister , you have nailed everything I was uneasy about and couldn't quite put into words. Thanks.
 
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
The asshat declaimed:
quote:
And a Christian, a TRUE Christian, should not ever be depressed, because he should be living his life for others, and he should have that peace of heart with God, when he knows that God has promised him a wonderful future in heaven with him.
Has this Bible-believing bastard (BBB) ever read the Psalms? Or maybe he wants to say that Jesus was sinning when he cried out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"? That doesn't sound much like "peace of heart with God" to me. I do hope he's being well roasted in Hell. Otherwise maybe those of us who only survive thanks to antidepressants could form a posse, visit him and apply the laying on of hands. In Christian love, of course....
 
Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 
What I find disturbing about this whole scenario isn't that this man is a nutjob (the world's full of them), but that our media is promoting his views, and labelling them as christian. In media he is described as 'Malcolm Bowden, evangelical Christian'. Should that be his tagline? Wouldn't it be fairer and more accurate to describe him as 'Malcolm Bowden, self-taught counsellor', or 'Malcolm Bowden, controversial author'. To denigrate a group by overt association like this is damaging and unethical. It's the same as describing a recent crime as being carried out by 'John S, local black man'.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It's also disturbing that he can be described as a counsellor, when he is not a professionally trained counsellor. There seems to be little to be done about this; one must hope that people understand the difference.

Although it is possible that some real counsellors perpetrate this stuff, since the training organizations seem to let all kinds of odd stuff through, see gay conversion.
 
Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
Quite a lengthy response from Malcolm Bowden in the parallel Hell thread.

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
His response to my e-mail.


Dear Matt,
Your criticism is only one of over 100 that were made on the broadcast.
In view of this I am attaching my response.
Please reply if you wish.
Best wishes,
Malcolm Bowden.

4THOUGHT - CHANNEL 4 - WEDNESDAY 25 APRIL 2012 - 7.55PM - DEPRESSION.
MY COMMENTS ON CRITICISMS RECEIVED.

I was interviewed by channel 4 on 15 March 2012 on depression. The whole filming took over 45minutes but was edited down to 1min 45 secs!
I was fully prepared for the editing to present only the most negative points I made, which in a way was so, but I would say that overall it was a fair presentation of my views as I am well aware that they are greatly resented by most people who have never heard my reasons for holding these views. It is impossible for anyone to present their views AND then give the evidence of why they hold them in the allowed time of 1m 45s! I hope to correct by presenting some of this evidence in this article.

1. WEBSITE. I was not allowed to give any publicity to my website or book which contain much that has changed many people's lives.
In view of this, I would ask critics to visit my website where I have a number of letters/emails received from people I have helped particularly with their depression. The direct link to the page is -
www.mbowden.info/bibcoun1.htm. At the start are two articles - comments, and how I stumbled upon True Biblical Counselling.

2. CHRISTIAN SUPPORT. To see the whole series, go to www.4thought.tv When I looked there late on Wednesday evening, there were some 90+ vitriolic comments on the transmission, plus further comments on these comments which I did not count. Total about 150 I would guess. Only one was fairly sympathetic. A number said they were Christians and were disgusted that I should call myself a "committed evangelical Christian", thus bringing disrepute upon our faith. I am certainly made to appear as the only Christian who holds to such extreme views.
So on this subject let me give a few quotations.
Would a few quotes from the great Dr. Martin-Lloyd Jones on depression persuade many evangelical Christians? Not to those whose mind is made up already! Remember he was a MEDICAL doctor nearing the highest levels in the medical world, which he gave up for the ministry. These are taken from his "Spiritual Depression" and I copy what I have said on my website.
......................................
"Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones on depression
When I started to read his book "Spritual Depression", as he was a highly regarded medical man, I fully expected him to take the conventional line of drugs etc. Much to my surprise, his views were in exact accordance with ours! I quote some of his statements;
"..I say that this person is still morbidly and sinfully preoccupied with self. I said just now that we have to be brutal with this condition. [emphasis MB] And it has to be said that the real trouble with these people is still 'self'... They appear very humble and full of contrition, but it is mock modesty, it is a self-concern... Forget yourself, leave the judgement to Him; get on with the work." [p.87]
"In a sense, the depressed Christian is a contradiction in terms, and he is a very poor recommendation for the gospel." [p.11] "..and saying: I am in great difficulty - it probably means that we are all the time centred upon ourselves. That is introspection, and in turn it leads to the condition known as morbidity." [p17].
One very damning comment was "Psychology, I believe, is one of the most subtle dangers in connection with the Christian belief.... we do not preach psychology, we preach the Christian faith." [p.265]
Throughout the book, he says exactly the same that we are proposing - that it is self-centred and self-pitying thinking that is the cause of depression.
....................................
The Apostle Paul went through terrible hardships but not once was he ever depressed. Indeed he said Christians should "Rejoice; again I say rejoice" and "Think more of others than yourself". Not once did he ever succumb to depression but claimed that the Christian faith was "..joy unspeakable and full of glory."
Jay Adams found he had not been trained to deal with counselling in his theological college, so he investigated the subject in depth, writing some 40 books and pamphlets on counselling. He followed O. Hobart Mowrer as he went round psychiatric hospitals curing schizophrenics simply by breaking past their defence strategies to get to the guilt that they had been hiding deep inside them. They acted in a bizarre and aggressive way simply to prevent people from enquiring too deeply and discovering their guilty secrets. Adams wrote much on depression. He pointed to their self-absorbtion, but did not pinpoint that basically they were acting self-centredly.

3. SECULAR SUPPORT.
The Pheonix Conference. Held in 1975, this huge conference had all the big names in psychotherapy. "Three out of the four members of the prestigious panel on schizophrenia declared that the disease [?] was non-existant." R.D. Laing insisted that schizophrenia "did not exist until the word was invented.""
Such views from such prestigious names has never reached the mainstream psychiatric/psychological professions - their income is too closely connected to maintaining this facade.
Thomas Szas, a member of the schizophrenia panel, has written a book called The Myth of Mental Illness.
On this subject of the classification of what constitutes a "mental illness", the now huge Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) lists all the various mental illnesses. Inclusion of an "illness" requires only a show of hands by a gathering of psychiatrists of the symptoms of the illness. If a person has a certain number of the symptoms on the list, then they are classified as having that particular "mental illness". THERE IS NOT A SCRAP OF SCIENTIFIC BASIS TO THE WHOLE OF THE PSY PROFESSIONS - (psychiatrists and psychologists).

Glasser, Harrington and Mainord
Glasser, in his book Reality Therapy, recounts how these three psychologists had huge success rates (80-100% cures with very few relapsing) with criminal girls, schizophrenics and men in a general psychiatric hospital simply by training them to take responsibility for their actions. So you see schizophrenia CAN be cured, but their method is not acceptable in today's "politically correct" culture. I quote from this book at length in our book Breakdowns are good for you [BAGFY].

4. CASES OF DEPRESSION
I have examined a number of cases - people who have come for help, or simply read our book, or have written (or been written about) in magazine articles. Given enough "background" information of their past life, I have found every time that they have had a pattern in their attitude to life of wanting praise, admiration, ambition, friendship etc. without really giving themselves to others in simple love towards them without seeking any return. They were consistently wanting praise but they never really "gave of themselves". If they DID do "good works", there was always an underlying desire to "buy" people's affection, which was often seen for what it was - so they never received a truly affectionate response to the depth that they were wanting. People are very sensitive to anyone who does NOT "give themselves" in open friendship; the signals that they send you on such occassions are extremely subtle and difficutl to define, but they are easily sensed by most people. When they find that they do not get the full response that they are seeking, we have the beginning of that inward collapse that heralds depression.
What they should do is GIVE of themselves in a quiet loving way and not expecting (seeking?) any responding return of affection. That will come when they are recognised as being truly "open hearted and genuine" people with a REAL interest in the welfare of other people, with no facades or barriers they hide behind.
In this short paper I feel I must be blunt. Life is full of problems, calamities and catastrophies that come upon us all. What many have done is to mentally collapse at the first hurdle of opposition, and frankly, what has really happened is that they have failed to face up to them in a mature way - they have never grown up to take the rough and tumble of the world in a mature (Christian?) way.

5. PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
The most common accusation by my critics is that "I have obviously never experienced depression otherwise I would be more sympathetic to this terrible illness". The implication is that only sufferers from depression should counsel other sufferers; a dubious proposition indeed. What is invariably offered is what I call "tea and sympathy" and "a shoulder to cry on". They go away happy, and both counsellor and counsellee are both satisfied. Unfortunately, this rarely cures their problem at depth, and they are likely to return to their former state when stress and pressure arise again. as it is bound to come in time.
What is badly needed is for the real cause of their problem to be revealed to them - gently but firmly. For their testimony of what happens to them when they DO respond to this approach I repeat that the reader should go to www.mbowden.info/bibcoun1.htm
Many admit that they are now more stable, at peace with themselves, no longer perfectionists to prevent criticisms, not so ambitious etc. Some in fact say they are glad they went through depression because it taught them what the real priorities in life are.
On this, I would mention that at one time in my life, when I was far from being mature and long before I became a Christian, I went through an extremely stressfull and testing three months. When it was over, I was lying in my bed and all the pent up fear and anxiety that I had supressed suddenly bubbled to the surface and I began to be so stressed that the room began to "swim" around me and I realised that I was on the point of having a "mental breakdown." I have a very clear memory of saying to myself "You have only one life to live. Either you face up to life and overcome your fears or you will buckle under and be a mental wreck for the rest of your life." This started me on the right path although I struggled with it for many years, but I was very determined to enjoy my life.
On another occasion, I gave my first public lecture against evolution with no other person's support. The night before I gave the lecture I was so fearful that I literally shook with fear in my bed. However, I was so determined to publicise the truth about the falseness of evolution that I forced myself to give the talk. The result was that I have never had any fear of public speaking since. It is this determination NOT to be limited by my inadequacies that has paid a huge dividend over the years of increased confidence and joy in serving God in any way He makes available to me. I have truly had a very stressfree and happy life.
Critics portray me as a hard-hearted man who cannot possibly be a Christian. In response, I can assure them that I am greatly loved by all 15 of my immediate family - (ask them if you know one of them!). In addition, every Christmas I circulate about 120 copies of 4 sides of A4 jokes that I have collected in the previous year. Recipients always look forward to receiving them. [See them at www.mbowden.info/Xmasjokes.htm ]
I merely mention this to show that I am far from being a kill-joy. It is the truth of a situation that I am always seeking, not the conventional propaganda that is consistently being pumped out by the mass media and by many churches that is absorbed by the general public. It is this that puts me at variance with the vast majority of people who accept the conventional wisdom.

FINALLY - I fully expected a huge amount of criticism - some of it from other Christians. I would repeat that many have been grateful for the way in which I have opened their eyes to what they are doing to themselves. Jay Adams has said "It is NOT kind to empathise with people without pointing out the real root of their problem".
I find that the truth of any situation is always rejected if it conflicts with a person's deeply held views that they have cherished for a lifetime. The process of admitting to oneself that you have been wrong on any important subject is too stressful and humiliating to the inner pride. So such evidence is firmly rejected without being prepared to consider carefully whether it is true or false.
Unfortunately, this also applies to many Christians when faced with contrary views.
I could present much more but will leave it there.

Malcolm Bowden.
See what you all think - In Hell the comments were as you might expect from that board!!!
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
What I find disturbing about this whole scenario isn't that this man is a nutjob (the world's full of them), but that our media is promoting his views, and labelling them as christian. In media he is described as 'Malcolm Bowden, evangelical Christian'. Should that be his tagline? Wouldn't it be fairer and more accurate to describe him as 'Malcolm Bowden, self-taught counsellor', or 'Malcolm Bowden, controversial author'. To denigrate a group by overt association like this is damaging and unethical. It's the same as describing a recent crime as being carried out by 'John S, local black man'.
- and terror attacks being carried out by Muslims.

The principle is always the same: damaging, extreme, criminal and deceptive acts are all carried out by people who aren't so different to you and me, so if we can separate them by some tag, we can feel OK.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
What I find disturbing about this whole scenario isn't that this man is a nutjob (the world's full of them), but that our media is promoting his views, and labelling them as christian. In media he is described as 'Malcolm Bowden, evangelical Christian'. Should that be his tagline? Wouldn't it be fairer and more accurate to describe him as 'Malcolm Bowden, self-taught counsellor', or 'Malcolm Bowden, controversial author'. To denigrate a group by overt association like this is damaging and unethical. It's the same as describing a recent crime as being carried out by 'John S, local black man'.
- and terror attacks being carried out by Muslims.

The principle is always the same: damaging, extreme, criminal and deceptive acts are all carried out by people who aren't so different to you and me, so if we can separate them by some tag, we can feel OK.
It's possible that the real sin of pride committed in situations like this is by self-appointed pseudo-Christian spokesmen (and with very few exceptions they are men) of the sort known in the media industry as "Rentamouth". Your rentamouth is so smugly flattered to have his opinions courted by a broadcaster or newspaper that he walks right in there without ever thinking that the broadcaster might have their own agenda.

Back in the 90s when I was working in parishes, one vicar not far from me became known as "The Joan Bakewell Fan Club" for his frequent appearances on mock-earnest BBC Sunday evening talk shows. To anyone watching, but not to the man himself, it was obvious that whoever had drawn up the guest list had asked, "Oh yes, and who's that bloke who always gets angry and flustered and talks over everybody else? He's always good value...."
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Unless perhaps your middle paragraph about asking forgiveness for our involuntary transgressions is meant to include depression as one of those involuntary transgressions?
Exactly this. Plus the fact that I posit a continuum, as I said above, between sorrow and full-blown neurologically-based depression, with that garden-variety depression that stands between an otherwise healthy graduate student and his completed thesis seated somewhere between the two poles. Drugs are not the end-all and be-all; neither are the techniques of the Fathers.

The fact that I can't see well enough to compose this post is, in some mysterious way, a result of sin. I'm delighted to be able to wear eye glasses to remedy the situation and I don't see this as being evidence of moral weakness on my part.
I'm still confused. I'm also nearsighted, and although I'm willing to say we live in a broken and sinful world, I'm not about to include my nearsightedness among the involuntary transgressions known and unknown that I try to confess to weekly. In any case, Michael Astley's comment about the patristic authors was about seeing depression as "choice and conscious sin."

I do tend to be thinking solely of clinical biologically-based depression when I think/speak of depression; although if situational depression also has a biological component of insufficient seratonin (I don't know if it does or not), I would include it.

[ 27. April 2012, 14:30: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
I haven't read all the responses to the OP so perhaps someone else has made the same observation, but...don't you get the impression, from some of these "Repent, sinners" folks, that their insistence on labeling innate parts of people's psyches as wilful pride/disobedience to God is based on a desperate attempt to make their own religious narrative come out right? You know, like Pentecostals who object to psychiatric pharmaceuticals and secular talk therapy, even though it can be very successful, because it contradicts their idea that demons make people mentally ill? Or people whose soteriology is based on a fundamentalist understanding of the Genesis story and the idea that some sort of wilful disobedience toward God on the part of humankind is the root of all evil being confronted with scientific/medical evidence that the human psyche is far more complicated -- as well as that the Adam and Eve story is just that, a story?

If you've backed yourself into a corner intellectually and rhetorically, where else can you go?

Now that I've said all that...although I'm sure it's not at all what Mr. You Chose Your Depression means, but...I am someone who has used antidepressive drugs, who thinks they can help people with certain types of depression...but they don't seem to do a lot for me, and I don't like the sort of emotional slowness/numbness they created in me. It was worse, in fact, to feel that way than to ride the waves, so to speak, of my type/degree of depression. I've found numerous non-pharmaceutical fixes that help me, and can live with whatever residual bouts of blues I experience. But in a sense I've chosen not to go further in a pharmaceutical direction, because I'd rather feel alive with occasional downshifts in mood than be even-keeled and numb. So I guess I'm another one of those wilful God-haters who choose not to submit to the disciplines of this fellow's particular sect?
 
Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
This whole topic reminded me of how many Evangelical types really embraced the Pigs in the Parlor version of deliverance.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
[QUOTE]

I do tend to be thinking solely of clinical biologically-based depression when I think/speak of depression; although if situational depression also has a biological component of insufficient seratonin (I don't know if it does or not), I would include it.
And yet, even when there's no chemical trigger, situational depression is... situational. It's a response to a real, depressing situation. Death. Job loss. Divorce. Yes, I suppose the depressed individual could "choose" to repress those feelings of sadness and don a cheerful affect-- but should they? Is it a sin to act depressed when something awful has happened? I think the desire to shame others into suppressing those feelings says more about our lack of a mature theology of suffering than it does about the individuals' "sinful choice".

Again, I imagine there's a grain of truth in the "choosing" theme. There are times when I choose to dwell on something far longer than I need to, causing suffering not only for me but for others as well. In my case that's more apt to manifest itself in anger or bitterness, but I can see where-- theoretically-- depression might also come about that way.

But that seems to me to be far from the norm. It seems that far more often people are either suffering form an innate condition over which they have no control, or they are expressing the natural and appropriate affective response to an unhappy circumstance. Neither of those am I willing to call "sin", nor do I think telling people the psychobabble equivalent of "walk it off" is good advise. There is a time to mourn, after all.

[ 27. April 2012, 16:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
LutheranChik

Very good post. I worked as a psychotherapist, and one always hoped that a client would not go on meds, as, as you say, it dulls everything. And in a sense, therapy works best when all the really cruel and dark stuff is coming out.

Of course, this is not always true. There are people who just have to take meds; for example, it has been found that one can work with psychotic people in therapy, if they are on meds.

A good word for our evangelical friend is just old-fashioned. There is a sense in which we are responsible, but he seems to be using it in a rather Victorian, you've made your bed, now lie in it, way.

Responsibility is something which emerges with time, and often long periods of time, and it cannot be thrust on people, except in emergency situations. Many people don't even know they are depressed. Have they chosen to be depressed, and chosen not to know it? Sounds like Sartre, and he was depressed.
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
I agree, cliffdweller. I didn't mean to rule out the reality of situational depression and appropriate ways of dealing with it. It's just that I have less experience of it to have it on my mind when thinking of depression.

I am now curious to read these patristic authors on depression, just to know what they in fact say. Michael Astley (or others), any references?
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good post. I worked as a psychotherapist, and one always hoped that a client would not go on meds, as, as you say, it dulls everything. And in a sense, therapy works best when all the really cruel and dark stuff is coming out.

Of course, this is not always true. There are people who just have to take meds; for example, it has been found that one can work with psychotic people in therapy, if they are on meds.
I don't find meds dull everything, or even anything (except, alas, for sexual response). For me, the choice of no meds vs. meds is between driving to work thinking "I wish I were dead, I wish I were dead, I wish I were dead, am I brave enough to drive off a bridge or jump off a high building?" vs. being able to function in my life and not thinking about killing myself at all.

I am very grateful for the blessings of modern pharmacology.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Absolutely. That's why I said, some people have to take meds. No contemporary therapist would deny that.

And some people should not do therapy either - that is also part of modern therapeutic knowledge.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Since the Hell thread seems to have been reduced to insulting this man - a reaction i can fully understand - I'm happy to keep this thread going in Purg while the moderators allow it!

Hell might have been a better place (didnt think i'd ever write that).
Hope they do so allow because this debate is too important to be reduced to a slanging match.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good post. I worked as a psychotherapist, and one always hoped that a client would not go on meds, as, as you say, it dulls everything. And in a sense, therapy works best when all the really cruel and dark stuff is coming out.

Of course, this is not always true. There are people who just have to take meds; for example, it has been found that one can work with psychotic people in therapy, if they are on meds.
I don't find meds dull everything, or even anything (except, alas, for sexual response). For me, the choice of no meds vs. meds is between driving to work thinking "I wish I were dead, I wish I were dead, I wish I were dead, am I brave enough to drive off a bridge or jump off a high building?" vs. being able to function in my life and not thinking about killing myself at all.

I am very grateful for the blessings of modern pharmacology.
Me too, but the side effects aren't negligible and that is the usual reason why people stop using meds. Yes, I wish I had a bit more get up and go, that I could carry two full pints in my hands without spilling some and had a bit more hair on the top of my head, but I can hold down a job (though I may lose a bit of concentration after lunch).

But GPs and consultants can if asked handle side-effects (pharmacists too, from practical aspects) but along comes a creep like Bowden trying to guilt-trip people about their illnesses. Well, if your illness is all about sin, you don't need medication do you? The Grace of God will forgive you and heal you.

I wonder how many dangerously mentally ill people have fallen for this kind of thing over the years?
 
Posted by WhateverTheySay (# 16598) on :
 
I am another who is eternally grateful for my meds.

I tried talk therapy before meds to work through my anxiety with very little success (none really). I believe that this was because I was not in a position to address the underlying causes of my anxiety.

I tried prayer healing, and begged my friends how the hell can I get an exorcism, a few years ago when I was convinced that I was demon possessed. Again not successful. Plus I am lucky that these friends are still my friends.

Eventually I got desperate and went to my GP. I didn't expect anything, but I thought I would never get out of the mess I was in if I didn't at least inquire about ways to block out the external thoughts. Luckily I ended up in the right place at the right time. I got a referral to a psychiatrist, who went on to give me some meds and at the next appointment a diagnosis.

On the meds, and more able to live my life, I went to a counsellor and was in a much better position to work through my problems. Plus my anxiety did reduce to a more manageable level now that I wasn't constantly concerned about the people coming to kill me. I was able to make a start on working through the personal issues that I needed to address, and am continuing to do that.

So in short, the meds and getting correctly diagnosed were what turned my life around.

There is still a long way to go, but I am studying part time and hoping to return to employment when I finish my study (stress is a trigger so I can only handle one thing at once, but at least I know what I am dealing with).
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
This whole topic reminded me of how many Evangelical types really embraced the Pigs in the Parlor version of deliverance.
Ooh. Would you believe some kind-hearted soul has just lent us this book, which I haven't seen in decades, apparently under the impression that it's quite recent. Perhaps I should re-reread it? Or not.
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Many years ago, in a whole 'nother lifetime, I was a clerk in a religious bookstore, and while it wasn't in our regular inventory it was occasionally a special order. My snarky Episcopalian coworker and I used to read it out loud on boring nights purely for the entertainment value. My favorite demon was the Demon of Female Insubordination.
 
Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :
 
Malcolm Bowden’s comments “THERE IS NOT A SCRAP OF SCIENTIFIC BASIS TO THE WHOLE OF THE PSY PROFESSIONS - (psychiatrists and psychologists).” I think this sums the guy up, conspiracy theory again. Gets publicity and sells books.

Now a couple of serious comments.

1. I used to work as a voluntary student disability counsellor. This included mental illness. With my religious clients, we used to pray that God would give them the strength to seek treatment and the strength to follow though. (I say religious, as I never made any distinction – prayed with the Muslims, Hindus and once a Mormon; his mum phone me to say thanks. I was always surprised I never got a complaint!)

2. Many of the poor souls told me of the relief when I told them they were ‘just ill’. Especially as I could say that it was no more of a moral weakness than me with my dyslexia.
 
Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :
 
My succinct response to Mr. Bowden:

Tell it to the Psalmists.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Sioni Sais

Your point about ill people falling for this stuff is unfortunately true. I think some are very vulnerable to it, especially if they are suffering from heavy guilt, as this seems to dovetail into all the blaming which these quacks perpetrate.

I have terrible stories that I remember of clients who had got into this type of Christian guilt/punishment, had stopped taking meds, and so on, with catastrophic results.

It should really be banned, but I guess it is protected under law.

[ 28. April 2012, 03:19: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
I would be very, very careful about any reported (and, of course) totally unverified "Christian" cures of, or for, depression hawked by the usual Spiritual Snake Oil Salespersons.

"Throw away your meds!" - unless the command can be absolutely verified as coming From Above - is a recipe for disaster.

Of course meditation, CBT etc. may assist in tandem with medication and may reduce the need for same under medical supervision.
 
Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
There is a book by Alistair McFadyen called "Bound to Sin" which unpicks one assumption on which much of the above discussion has been based - namely that there is operative free will to make a choice. He points out, in a subtle theological analysis, that the effect of sin is to bind the will. I'm sure it is controversial, but the idea makes sense to me.
 
Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 
As someone who is committed to the belief that at least some depression has mainly a chemical cause, I'm fascinated by the question as to why it is so common today by contrast with the patterns of the past. I simply don't believe that there were the vast numbers of depressed people in society in the past that there were today - I think we need to ask some questions about why our society is so toxic that it causes 'depression' on its vast scale.* When I say 'toxic', I'm suggesting both social and possible chemical causes. For example Bowden suggests:
quote:
I have found every time that they have had a pattern in their attitude to life of wanting praise, admiration, ambition, friendship etc. without really giving themselves to others in simple love towards them without seeking any return.
Whilst I'm not buying the 'every time' bit, I suspect he may well have a valid point, and that our society militates against the sort of community where that self-giving comes easily; once people start to fall through the cracks, there's often no 'community' there to act as a safety net. At the risk of gross naivity, I suspect that in the past larger families and more structured communities reduced the chance of this. Similarly a lot of people think that exercise is helpful in reducing depression - but we live in a society where that doesn't happen naturally any more.

Certainly if we argue that depression is to any extent a result of feedback loop - some of the causes make it get worse over time - then these features would be likely to prevent people starting down the slide; in their absence we see them ending up at the bottom.
---------------
*Possibly vagrancy in the past - as it is in the present - was one visible example, but that is rather speculative.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
He points out, in a subtle theological analysis, that the effect of sin is to bind the will.
His solution?
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
He points out, in a subtle theological analysis, that the effect of sin is to bind the will.
His solution?
He doesn't have a solution, he's just a very vain man with time on his hands who doesn't have the slightest idea what damage he may do to desperate people.

btw, where's the 'subtlety' in his theology? There's some twists and turns, but I've heard more subtlety in youth group discussions.

I'd like to know how he and Channel 4 got hooked up: I expect there's a commissioning editor who isn't sleeping too well.
 
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Whilst I'm not buying the 'every time' bit, I suspect he may well have a valid point, and that our society militates against the sort of community where that self-giving comes easily; once people start to fall through the cracks, there's often no 'community' there to act as a safety net. At the risk of gross naivity, I suspect that in the past larger families and more structured communities reduced the chance of this. Similarly a lot of people think that exercise is helpful in reducing depression - but we live in a society where that doesn't happen naturally any more.

Certainly if we argue that depression is to any extent a result of feedback loop - some of the causes make it get worse over time - then these features would be likely to prevent people starting down the slide; in their absence we see them ending up at the bottom.
---------------
*Possibly vagrancy in the past - as it is in the present - was one visible example, but that is rather speculative.
By observation, depression in its broadest sense does cause people to withdraw into themselves. The phrase 'taking someone out of himself' comes to mind, where friends and family would be conscious of the slippery slope and help each other to restore a 'normal' balance.

This issue is huge. Like others, I can't understand how making someone guilty about his illness will help him in any way, let alone to overcome it. Of course it's not chosen, that would imply that it's controllable. It isn't, which is why it's so debilitating.

Whether chemical imbalance causes depression or depression causes chemical imbalance, clearly when its restoration makes a difference it is worthwhile taking the medication.

I have reservations about talk therapy. While I think it helps people to have someone care enough to listen to him, I don't think it helpful to go over and over past hurts. Facing up emotionally to an unresolved issue is necessary, but then it's time to move on.

Allowing God into their depression through prayer does help people who love and trust in God, but God should never be given as an alternative to whatever therapy is available.
 
Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
It's interesting -- I used to feel somehow that depression must have a willed component, because the relatives I had who suffered from it were so annoyingly round-and-round-in-circles. But it was clear to me that it was also to a certain extent a heritage of the bad kind, just like cancer. Then of course, I, the eternal cheerful optimist high-performer experienced my first serious bout with it, which was very much like stepping into a Hall of Mirrors. Everything was different, fragmented, distorted, horrible, dark. It wasn't caused by any externality that I could identify, nor was it any sort of choice - who would choose it?

Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
He points out, in a subtle theological analysis, that the effect of sin is to bind the will.
His solution?
He doesn't have a solution, he's just a very vain man with time on his hands who doesn't have the slightest idea what damage he may do to desperate people.

btw, where's the 'subtlety' in his theology? There's some twists and turns, but I've heard more subtlety in youth group discussions.

I'd like to know how he and Channel 4 got hooked up: I expect there's a commissioning editor who isn't sleeping too well.
I think you're confusing Alistair McFadyen-- the guy who wrote a book disputing the concept of free will-- with Bowden-- who is really making the opposite claim-- that depression is a prideful act of free will.

I don't happen to agree with either of them, but wouldn't put McFadven anywhere near the same camp as Bowden's very dangerous recklessness.
 
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Many depressed people turn in on themselves and feel that people are against them, the world’s not going right, they don’t appreciate how hard they’re working, they’re terribly proud of their situation, and try to be perfect in order to impress people, and people aren’t ultimately impressed, and when they suddenly deflate themselves, they fall right back into a pit of depression.
What makes this garbage particularly dangerous is that it picks up on many of the cognitive biases of depression and blames "pride" for them. Bowden may be a douche, but he has observed depressed people and he targets and exploits the symptoms of the disease. Here are some of the common faulty assumptions* that play a role in depression - notice how his description is a derogatory version of many of these:
That would be Bowden and Jesus, I suppose.

Yes, there is a lot that a person can do to battle depression, but that is true of all illnesses and injuries, and it doesn't mean the person is to blame for the illness itself. We do rehab and physio after surgery. We take antibiotics as instructed to prevent infection. Yet despite all this necessary self-care, no one would ever suggest that means it the person's fault they got appendicitis in the first place. OliviaG.

*From my Changeways Core Program workbook.
 
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
... I have reservations about talk therapy. While I think it helps people to have someone care enough to listen to him, I don't think it helpful to go over and over past hurts. Facing up emotionally to an unresolved issue is necessary, but then it's time to move on. ...
I was skeptical of its value to me for the same reasons; however, I have since learned that is not an accurate picture of what happens in therapy. The purpose of exploring past hurts, among many other things, is to try to figure out why one holds dysfunctional or self-destructive beliefs. Understanding where those beliefs come from can be helpful in compassionately accepting them and then letting them go. It may not be possible to resolve past issues, but it is possible to reduce or limit their influence on our present and future. OliviaG
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
"Throw away your meds!" - unless the command can be absolutely verified as coming From Above - is a recipe for disaster.
I think one of the things that fascinates me about the line of thinking we're discussing here, theologically, is the implicit assumption that the Almighty didn't have any hand in the invention of the medications in the first place.
 
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
As someone who is committed to the belief that at least some depression has mainly a chemical cause, I'm fascinated by the question as to why it is so common today by contrast with the patterns of the past. I simply don't believe that there were the vast numbers of depressed people in society in the past that there were today - I think we need to ask some questions about why our society is so toxic that it causes 'depression' on its vast scale.* When I say 'toxic', I'm suggesting both social and possible chemical causes. ...
I have given this quite a lot of thought. My list of toxic elements includes:
I'm not sure, however, whether the incidence is or isn't changing. Mental illness carries a very strong stigma, is often undiagnosed, and treatment is still far less accessible than many other health care interventions. Furthermore, depression sometimes presents as anger, irascibility, short temper, etc. but we don't think of those as typical depression symptoms, even though it might factor into road rage, copier rage, air rage, etc. OliviaG
 
Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :
 
I wonder if I'm the only one who's disappointed in the way this thread is framed? It takes an issue which is important, about the extent to which depression may be a behavioural as opposed to medical problem, but then ties it to a specific, controversial figure who takes an extreme view.

This biases the thread against anyone who wants to show any sympathy with the idea that SOME cases of depression are rooted in behaviour that is not inevitable, and therefore can be best approached by CBT-type approaches. I happen to be of this view, but have no sympathy whatever with the view that ALL or even MOST depression is of this type, but the OP seems very much to want to discuss it in these terms.

Why the fascination for rather fringe actors in the religious scene? It tends to stifle debate by tying it to individual people with axes to grind.

When the only subject submitted for discussion is
quote:
Is there a factory manufacturing these guys??
then I think it really is a Hell thread.
 
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
Laura, that's fabulous. I like Hyperbole and a Half, but I hadn't seen this one before.

I think it's interesting that a bicycle ride was a breakthrough moment for her. What it seems to me that the Fathers recommended for what we call depression is to get up and do what has to be done. Physical labor. Hoe the field, make a basket, DO something.

I think, if the Fathers had had access to effective psychotropic meds, they'd have recommended that you take your meds, and then get up and do something.

Which, I know, is far easier to say than to do when you're depressed. You sometimes need someone else to help you do it.
 
Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
A large part of the problem is that a lot of people don't understand how psych drugs work: for example, thinking of antidepressants as "happy pills." They think of depressed (and other mentally ill) people as lotus-eaters who take their drugs because it is easier than just snapping out of it.

Fact is, psych drugs, for the most part, are not effective for non-psych disorders. The "for the most part" disclaimer includes things like valium and xanax, which can help with situational anxiety, not just a clinical anxiety disorder.

If you do not have a seizure disorder and you take anti-seizure medication it is not likely to do anything for you except give you unpleasant side effects, unless you are taking it for another problem for which it also works. Anti-seizure meds are widely prescribed for bipolar disorder and sometimes for chronic migraines. But all of these are actual medical conditions, not a matter of "oh, I am too lazy to do anything about my moods, so I guess I'll just take some drugs."
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Hyperbole and a Half writes truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
As someone who is committed to the belief that at least some depression has mainly a chemical cause, I'm fascinated by the question as to why it is so common today by contrast with the patterns of the past.
Yes, it's an important question. But I think there may always have been more of it around than we think. Looking back (cautiously, in case it triggers something) I think I was depressed for years before I was diagnosed - seriously, years in which I often felt the entire rest of the world had smothered me in a blanket and then spent weeks on end screaming at me what a piece of shit I was while beating me with truncheons. That is honestly what it felt like to be inside my head. But I thought it was how I was supposed to feel. Because, of course, I was a piece of shit. And I put on a brave face (again, literally, plastered a false smile on when I walked out the door. And "How are you?" "Fine thanks, and you?" all the time) and for those years I was invisibly depressed.

But I think some of what you say has a lot in it. When you're depressed, good social support helps (doesn't fix it, but helps). And we live in a culture where many people have less social support than they once did. Physical activity, also, helps (doesn't fix it, but helps). And we live in a culture where we tend to do less of that, too. So maybe there were always this many people with depression, but the old lifestyles helped more people just keep their heads above water. Maybe. I don't know.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
My succinct response to Mr. Bowden:

Tell it to the Psalmists.
Ah but they weren't Christians!!!
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I would be very, very careful about any reported (and, of course) totally unverified "Christian" cures of, or for, depression hawked by the usual Spiritual Snake Oil Salespersons.
It's a bit like the gay cure in Dead Horses.
 
Posted by PerkyEars (# 9577) on :
 
quote:
As someone who is committed to the belief that at least some depression has mainly a chemical cause, I'm fascinated by the question as to why it is so common today by contrast with the patterns of the past. I simply don't believe that there were the vast numbers of depressed people in society in the past that there were today - I think we need to ask some questions about why our society is so toxic that it causes 'depression' on its vast scale.*
I wonder if we've become very bad as a society at just being sad. Life can suck, but we are bombarded with fixes for everything and a million and one ways to raise our mood. We're taught to offer answers our friends problems and cheer them up, not 'weep with those who weep'. Eventually it feels like unacceptable weakness and uselessness to actually be upset about something, so maybe we squash it down until it festers into depression. Obviously this depends in part on our families too.
 
Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
He points out, in a subtle theological analysis, that the effect of sin is to bind the will.
His solution?
He doesn't have a solution, he's just a very vain man with time on his hands who doesn't have the slightest idea what damage he may do to desperate people.

btw, where's the 'subtlety' in his theology? There's some twists and turns, but I've heard more subtlety in youth group discussions.

I'd like to know how he and Channel 4 got hooked up: I expect there's a commissioning editor who isn't sleeping too well.
I think the solution is the grace of God rather than human endeavour - McFadyen is pro Augustine on the whole, and anti Pelagius. It takes more than human will to conquer sin, and solutions which suggest that sinners can save themselves are theologically inadequate.

On Channel 4: are we talking about the same person? Have you read the book I cited? I'm confused, because the comment does not seem to connect.
 
Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
Eutychus, on the subject of the book, LutheranChik's post says it all. Someone gave my mother the book and after she finished it I found her in my room trying to drive out demons that were somehow drawn to my Clash posters. It is disconcerting to awaken in the night and find your fomerly rational mother praying over you because you wear combat boots and a leather jacket and trying to discard your Tshirt with the anarchy symbol because she believes it demonic. Later in life she was dismayed to remember what fear the book had caused in her.

She moved next to Louise Hay books which were just as ridiculous.
 
Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I think it's interesting that a bicycle ride was a breakthrough moment for her. What it seems to me that the Fathers recommended for what we call depression is to get up and do what has to be done. Physical labor. Hoe the field, make a basket, DO something.
"Fake it 'til you make it" is still a key component of getting your life in order if periodic bouts of depression are going to be part of the fabric. [Big Grin]

I'm extremely grateful for my restored equanitmity, but I try never to forget what the pit felt like. The experience improved my Compassion-O-Meter dramatically.

What people CAN choose or not is to treat their depression like any other illness and live responsibly to attenuate its effects on the peace and the furniture as much as possible. Get sleep. Exercise. Don't drink too much. Don't make critical decisions while ill. Etc. Sometimes none of those things are possible without meds. Sometimes doing these things makes meds unnecessary.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Ironically, one reason for the apparent increase in depression, may be the decline in religion. There is evidence that religious faith and practice protect against mental illness and suicide. Hence, a decline in the former, may well result in an increase in the latter.

Of course, no doubt it is much more complex than that, and there are so many confounding factors that are probably going on, for example, as others have mentioned, the breakdown in community life, the commodity culture induced by capitalism, and so on.

In addition, it is very difficult to ascertain if the increase in depression is real or not, or is a result of less people hiding it. Pull your socks up was often said in the 40s and 50s and even to the present day.

In addition, it strikes me that psychotherapy is a secularized form of confession and absolution; so that these erstwhile religious functions have migrated to another sphere.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
cliffdweller and Fool on Hill:

Sorry, I did misread the posts and get people confused but I do disagree with both of them. McFadyen is IMHO wrong about free will as sin doesn't bind man irrevocably (but then I have my own interpretation of free will) while Bowden is simply as crazy as a bag of rats.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
It's interesting -- I used to feel somehow that depression must have a willed component, because the relatives I had who suffered from it were so annoyingly round-and-round-in-circles. But it was clear to me that it was also to a certain extent a heritage of the bad kind, just like cancer. Then of course, I, the eternal cheerful optimist high-performer experienced my first serious bout with it, which was very much like stepping into a Hall of Mirrors. Everything was different, fragmented, distorted, horrible, dark. It wasn't caused by any externality that I could identify, nor was it any sort of choice - who would choose it?

Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
Speaking of family heritage, this is the Preacher Family's dirty secret. I hope my new niece escapes our family's history of mental illness.
 
Posted by Russ (# 120) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I posit a continuum, as I said above, between sorrow and full-blown neurologically-based depression
Yes. Not only is it important to recognise that the severity of those symptoms can vary on a continuum between "not having a good day" and total debilitation, but also there can be different causes for similar symptoms.

Computers provide one model for thinking about mind/brain issues. There can be a tendency for the hardware engineers to see a hardware problem and prescribe a physical fix of drugs and software engineers to see a software problem and seek to correct the code by counselling.

Even with computers, sometimes what's needed is a software work-around for a hardware problem, and the mind/brain system is more complex.

I'd heard that depression can be a subconscious choice - withdrawal being the least painful way of coping with a situation - so it's not impossible to imagine that there could be cases where the same choice is made more or less consciously.

The other confounding factor with many things medical is this wonderful stuff called placebo which reportedly cures 30% of anything.

So yes life's complicated, but I think that means that the response to over-enthusiastic advocates of any particular approach is to say that such may work in a small number of cases, and try to characterise what those cases are, rather than dismissing (as some tend to do) the messenger out of hand as a total ****-up.

Best wishes,

Russ
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I would be very, very careful about any reported (and, of course) totally unverified "Christian" cures of, or for, depression hawked by the usual Spiritual Snake Oil Salespersons.
It's a bit like the gay cure in Dead Horses.
Full-blown, clinical depression may well be beyond the reach of such things. However, I have a fair amount of sympathy for such things as cognitive therapy, which is not so very far from many Christian approaches that some might call snake oil. Especially when we are transitioning from childhood to adulthood (at whatever age we get around to doing that), taking a serious look at how our overblown childish attitudes are making us unhappy and setting up unreasonable expectations about the world are very much on-target for getting us over ourselves. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
I think the solution is the grace of God rather than human endeavour - McFadyen is pro Augustine on the whole, and anti Pelagius. It takes more than human will to conquer sin, and solutions which suggest that sinners can save themselves are theologically inadequate.
So how does he suggest the Grace of God works in this situation?

quote:
Originally posted by Laura:


Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
Do you agree with the ending?

Does depression lead you to say "fuck you all" and get on with your life?

quote:
And that's how my depression got so horrible that it actually broke through to the other side and became a sort of fear-proof exoskeleton.
This does not seem to me to be the end result of severe depression.

The other thing that bothers me about this cartoon is the implication that this person has absolutely nothing he/she has to do in order to earn a living to survive.

There is a reason suicide rates drop during wars.

[ 29. April 2012, 12:53: Message edited by: Evensong ]
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
One of the problems with this sort of argument is that it missed out on a key distinction between "cure" and "help".

Talking therapies can be very useful in helping a depressive. Not least, in helping them to find coping strategies for some of the practical aspects of living with depression.

But coping strategies are not a cure. They can be confused with a cure, because the people who they work best with are better able to cope with the social situations they are in - that is, they appear to present less of the obvious problems.

At the same time, having a community of supportative people, like a church, can be very important for someone with all sorts of mental illness. It is not a cure, but it is a positive environment to be in. It can help, but is not a cure.

Incidentally, yesterdays 4thought was much better. Another Christian, who was all for the use of medication, but who believed that Jesus was also very important for her healing. I am sure he was, and introducing people to Jesus is always a good thing, especially if they are ill.

But the faith, the community, the support will provide the positive environment, allowing the meds to do their work, and the body to sort itself out.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I would be very, very careful about any reported (and, of course) totally unverified "Christian" cures of, or for, depression hawked by the usual Spiritual Snake Oil Salespersons.
It's a bit like the gay cure in Dead Horses.
Full-blown, clinical depression may well be beyond the reach of such things. However, I have a fair amount of sympathy for such things as cognitive therapy, which is not so very far from many Christian approaches that some might call snake oil. Especially when we are transitioning from childhood to adulthood (at whatever age we get around to doing that), taking a serious look at how our overblown childish attitudes are making us unhappy and setting up unreasonable expectations about the world are very much on-target for getting us over ourselves. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune
Do you mean cognitive BEHAVIOUR therapy? If so, i agree. My church is running a day course about this with one of our members who is a therapist.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I usually click off the ship when I get up to do something because I don't consider if home safe, but I left it for a few minutes this morning and my (sometimes depressed) son, who had read the entire thread said, "That Oliva is brilliant." I had to agree. Great posts today, plus uncharacteristic smilie restraint.
 
Posted by Sighthound (# 15185) on :
 
I don't believe for one second that I chose to be clinically depressed, to lose approximately seven years out of my life during which I had little or no interest in all the things that have fascinated and delighted me for as long as I can remember. It was hell on earth. I am blessed with quite good powers of description, but words cannot adequately describe the misery of it.

I do believe that I would not have come through it alive but for my wife and Jesus. Those two were all that saved me from topping myself, ultimately through the power of love. If I'd not had them in my mind, I'd be dead.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

I'd heard that depression can be a subconscious choice - withdrawal being the least painful way of coping with a situation - so it's not impossible to imagine that there could be cases where the same choice is made more or less consciously.
I've been described as 'morose' by people close to me in the past, (and possibly in the present).
I might even describe myself as such . However I've often thought that to name as 'depression', then to head for the nearest GP is as good as saying to myself --- " I've got it".
 
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :
 
Well, yes, but I think that just shows that it isn't depression.

I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.

It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
 
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
Everyone at sometime in their lives feels unhappy. And while unhappy you can continue to live your life without recourse to drugs or therapy. I think those that think people with depression should just pull their socks up or are bringing it on themselves are confusing their experience of sadness with the reality of depression.

It can be confusing and hard to spot. Ive had depression for most of my life but only realised it a couple of years ago.
 
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
As someone who is committed to the belief that at least some depression has mainly a chemical cause, I'm fascinated by the question as to why it is so common today by contrast with the patterns of the past. I simply don't believe that there were the vast numbers of depressed people in society in the past that there were today - I think we need to ask some questions about why our society is so toxic that it causes 'depression' on its vast scale.
I had to write an essay about that as an undergrad. If I recall correctly, the set text was Britain on the Couch by Oliver James.

The main thing I remember from the book was a theory relating to negative social comparison. His argument was that society structure had an effect on seratonin levels in the brain; in particular, the fact that modern society leads people into comparing themselves negatively with others — given global media, high social mobility, and the attitude that hard work will attain a better quality of life, more and more people end up comparing themselves against success stories such as dot com millionaires and concluding "They must be working harder than me". Repeated thinking in this manner leads to persistent changes in brain chemical levels.

I'm going from memory of an essay I wrote 7 years ago, so I may have misremembered. But it's an interesting idea. Put a whole raft of opportunities within someone's (perceived) grasp, imply that anyone can attain them, and they'll blame themselves when they don't manage to achieve. Society with a class structure where the working class stay working class doesn't have that implication, since there's nothing in the media that leads a working class person to compare themselves to a middle class person.

I can't remember his citations for the specific mechanism that these comparisons influenced seratonin levels.
 
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.

It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
There's a certain pattern of false logic that can lead one to believe one is choosing depression. It goes something like: I know I am not getting out of my bed. But my legs work, so obviously I could get out of bed. Therefore I'm choosing to stay in bed. Since my staying in bed is a symptom of depression, I am choosing depression.

(I completely agree with your description btw. I'm describing a pattern of rationalisation, where pretending you have control over your physical actions leads to a false conclusion.)
 
Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
If Bowden thinks it is ok to say that people choose depression, then I feel justified in saying that he chooses to be an ignorant '....'
 
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :
 
Amorya - absolutely. It's a part of the vicious 'I'm useless' circle a depressed person often gets into. The one that Bowden is apparently keen to encourage.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Well, yes, but I think that just shows that it isn't depression.

I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.

It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
Your experience stated here seems to a common theme on this thread Drifting Star.

Thank you for sharing. It's not one I am familiar with.

I am curious tho.

How would those of you that descend under this darkness diagnose the illness?

What is it?

Is it spiritual? Is it socially connected? Is it purely chemical? Is it none of the above? Is it a mixture of them all?

OliviaG has posited some excellent points (IMO) and Twilight (and her son) has agreed but this seems to me to be a lesser form of depression than the total enveloping futility that many of you speak of.

For those of you that have experienced this: what do you think is going on?

Or is that too hard a question?

My experience of people with depression is that they are often very wise.

I guess I'm curious if you guys with severe depression have any ideas.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It's impossible to speak of a unitary phenomenon, depression, or something homogeneous. One must speak of a family of conditions, which go under that name.

For example, mourning can lead to a kind of depression, and can sometimes go on for a long time (described by Freud). One also finds depression around childbirth, around creativity, and other occasions in life.

But there is also depression connected with repressed anger, grief, or guilt.

That is why the psychotherapist or counsellor should not approach the depressed client with too many preconceived ideas, but one must be prepared to listen. Eventually, if you wait, the client will reveal the nature of their depression, so that the therapist does not (and should not) play guessing games, or attempt mind-reading.

I think therefore that it can be a slow process.

[ 30. April 2012, 13:07: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
@Evensong

Obviously it differs from person to person.

A feeling of complete hopelessness.

A physical pain like rats gnawing your stomach.

A wish to commit suicide because you cannot face living another day feeling the way you do.

Not being able to enjoy anything.
 
Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :
 
How can you justify discriminating against the mentally ill and blaming them for their own problems unless you claim that they made a choice to be miserable?

That's nothing compared to the group of lunatics in college that tried to exorcise my friend, a new member of that group, when he was depressed.
 
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :
 
[Cross-posted - replying to Evensong, with reference to George's post.]
The same sort of thing. Complete and utter hopelessness is the best description.

If you can imagine a spectrum of all possible feelings, ranging from the most positive and happy, through neutral, to the most unpleasant, negative feelings. Now remove everything that is better than neutral. Imagine reacting to things that would have previously made you happy with, at best, neutral feelings, and often with a sense of apparently unreasonable desperation.

I haven't had suicidal feelings, but I have experienced an overwhelming wish that I didn't exist because there was no point to anything.

I wouldn't say it was spiritual at all. I knew God was there and trusted him even though I couldn't seem to get hold of him.

Chemical? I don't know. I know it can be, but I have no idea how much of a role chemistry plays in general. For me there was a situational trigger, but I had dealt with far worse things in life before, and stuck with grief and misery - which are not depression. I suspect that, a little like a cold sore, once you have had it you are predisposed to get it again, and so an initial trigger may no longer be relevant.

BTW I am a natural optimist, and the sort of person who is more likely to be cheering others up. I am still that person when the depression lifts. And it does lift.

[ 30. April 2012, 13:57: Message edited by: Drifting Star ]
 
Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:


Anyway, this is the best explanation of how depression works that I've ever seen (complete with illustrations!) Adventures in Depression (Hyperbole and a Half)
Do you agree with the ending?

Does depression lead you to say "fuck you all" and get on with your life?

quote:
And that's how my depression got so horrible that it actually broke through to the other side and became a sort of fear-proof exoskeleton.
This does not seem to me to be the end result of severe depression.
I love Allie of HAAH - I don't think she's saying this is true of all depression, just recounting what happened to her. I sometimes say 'fuck you' to depression, other times depression says it to me. And I don't read it as the end of severe depression - just a milestone on the journey.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
How would those of you that descend under this darkness diagnose the illness?

What is it?

Is it spiritual? Is it socially connected? Is it purely chemical? Is it none of the above? Is it a mixture of them all?

OliviaG has posited some excellent points (IMO) and Twilight (and her son) has agreed but this seems to me to be a lesser form of depression than the total enveloping futility that many of you speak of.

For those of you that have experienced this: what do you think is going on?
I've no idea what depression is, what causes it, but I know what it feels like and what living with it is like.

Sometimes it feels like the enveloping futilty - the state of mind where hiding in a cupboard in your own bedroom is the only thing you can cope with. Like Allie in the cartoon, I've had times where I couldn't walk, but only crawl across the floor. And other times when life is ok, and you're just battling the lesser depression. Thank God, that's most of the time - with the meds, I don't even have the lesser depression. I have to be careful, and things can set me off, but I'm ok.

Sometimes it's bad, most of the time it's ok.

What does it feel like? When it's really bad, it's like I'm not a human. I can't talk or write properly. I can't think to the end of a sentance. Tears come whenever they want. It's hard to move. I feel worthless, and like it's all my fault - everything is my fault. Sin. Mouldy bread. Dead birds.

When it's bearable, it's like living with a chronic illness. I get headaches easily. My sleep is often distracted. I have to be careful not to tire myself out, try to eat well, get some fresh air. If I do, then things continue ok. If I don't, I risk a slide back into the bad state.

Hope this helps to understand a little.
 
Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :
 
Having suffered from clinical depression in the past and been healed of it, I can assure this 'preacher' that he has no clue what he is on about.

The best thing he could do is stop preaching, sit down, shut up and talk to those he is condemning.

The brain can malfunction as easily as any other part of the body. It is wrong to assume that people choose depression.

As for the naive theology that submitting yourself to God will cure it, he is absolutely wrong here too. There have been thousands of Godly Christians who down through the ages have done all he suggests and more, yet still have suffered from depression. How many people in the gospels got healed because of their 'submission' to God ? They didn't - they turned up and Jesus healed them. It was a free gift with a bit of faith on their part. It had zero to do with moral performance. 'By his stripes' were the multitude healed.

This is exactly the sort of half baked stupidity that gives Christianity a bad name.
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Drifting Star's description of depression is about the best I've read here.

Depression doesn't necessarily equate to sadness. For me it can be as mild as a kind of physical and mental sluggishness that keeps me from starting or finishing anything...all I want to do is sit on the sofa. But that can work its way to a full-blown, tearful, existential despair where death starts seeming like a preferable option. (Thank God I haven't had a bout of the latter for the last few years.)

It's funny, but I can feel a cycle of depression coming on the way I suspect I'm catching a cold -- that ominous, not-quite-right feeling. Which is good, because then I can summon the self-talk and anti-depressive lifestyle activities that minimize the symptoms for me. (And I'll echo the thought that depression and its effective treatments are different for different people.) It also helps me to articulate to my partner that I feel as if I'm on the cusp of a depression -- partly to warn her, but also I think there's some power in "naming" aloud what's going on, instead of trying to soldier on silently. (She has PTSD, and will do the same if she feels either a depressive state or a panic coming on. I think both my parents were depressive personalities who dealt with it in different but equally ineffective ways, and I suspect that lack of awareness/ability to articulate what they were feeling and the social stigma during their lifetimes of seeking treatment for mental health issues were a part of that.)
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, that lack of awareness and inability to articulate in depressed parents is interesting, and I think it is possible that some people have to work through their parents' depression, which as it were, is inherited.

Of course, the old joke is that the best training to be a therapist is to have a depressed mother, although it is one of those wry jokes, which contains probably some truth.
 
Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Depression is a category of mood disorder, and is very good friends with anxiety. Thus depression might be being really down, but can also be somewhat down accompanied by being tense. I expect that the circumstances of life and genetics in a nasty conspiracy together may provide for how the mood gets expressed.

I obtained a copy of Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy (1621) about 10-12 years ago with the Latin bits all nicely translated. Struck with how we conceptualize mental and physical troubles, the influence of language and world view on how we view illness.

(edit - link fixed)

[ 30. April 2012, 17:00: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
 
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
When asked what would make me consider myself "cured" (or at least in remission), my response was that when I wake up in the morning, I'd like to be happy, or at least relieved! As opposed to feeling total and complete fear and horror at the prospect of another awful day of being me and thinking "Shit, I didn't die in my sleep." Like Drifting Star, I'm a really "up" person when I'm not depressed - funny, friendly, busy, effective, etc. (IMHO). When I'm depressed, I feel that I'm not even entitled to the oxygen I take from the atmosphere because I'm so worthless.

The way to tell *any* mental illness from the ups and downs of life, personality, and mood is simply whether it is interfering or preventing you from living life normally - taking care of yourself and family / pets; working (paid or unpaid); enjoying hobbies and activities; having a range of social contacts and relationships; paying bills; staying out of jail; sleeping, eating and exercising properly, etc. - on most days and /or for an extended period of time. OliviaG
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
One of the clearest signs for me about the biological/chemical contribution to depression is migraines.

About a 1/3 of migraine sufferers have depression after it. NOT during. After.

And I'm in that one third. I can live with it pretty well now, because it only lasts for about a day and it's so damn regular and predictable. But my brain will put me in a depressed state whether its convenient or not. The best strategy is for me simply to manage it and wait until the depression lifts.

I've also had longer term depression, and there's all sorts of interesting possibilities as to the links between migraine and depression given that both seem to involve serotonin levels going wacky. But it's very clear to me that there is a sequence of events going on inside my brain that, once a migraine has been triggered, run their own course and have nothing to do with my responses to the outside world or choosing the next step in the process. If I start having a migraine (thankfully something that seems to be happening a lot less), then I will almost certainly have a depressive episode in about 3 days time, regardlessly of how I might have been feeling emotionally when the migraine started.

(My migraine triggers/contributing factors include tiredness, stress and overexcitement - including extremely HAPPY overexcitement - but also such unemotional things as flickering lights.)

[ 01. May 2012, 03:20: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
I was somewhat amused (although, also, somewhat depressed!) by "Old Bathrobe"'s comment in the Grauniad :

quote:
I see that Bowden presents no evidence. He simply pontificates as if he's unable to comprehend the difference between the way things are and the way he thinks they should be
and by Carusian:

quote:
Christianity can certainly cause depression though, especially in less secular areas. In LGBT teens, for example.
Is it any wonder that the general population has a negative attitude about Christians?

[ 02. May 2012, 23:05: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
 
Posted by rhflan (# 17092) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Well, yes, but I think that just shows that it isn't depression.

I don't believe that anybody who has experienced depression would entertain the idea of choosing it for even a moment.

It is a dark, black, horrible, hopeless cloud that descends on you. If you have experienced it before you might recognise its approach, and if you do you will fight for all you are worth, with every coping strategy that you have learned, to prevent it from arriving. You would never choose to accept it, and you certainly wouldn't be able to decide to reject it.
Your experience stated here seems to a common theme on this thread Drifting Star.

Thank you for sharing. It's not one I am familiar with.

I am curious tho.

How would those of you that descend under this darkness diagnose the illness?

What is it?

Is it spiritual? Is it socially connected? Is it purely chemical? Is it none of the above? Is it a mixture of them all?

OliviaG has posited some excellent points (IMO) and Twilight (and her son) has agreed but this seems to me to be a lesser form of depression than the total enveloping futility that many of you speak of.

For those of you that have experienced this: what do you think is going on?

Or is that too hard a question?

My experience of people with depression is that they are often very wise.

I guess I'm curious if you guys with severe depression have any ideas.
Best I can tell (from personal experience suffering with mental illness and studying psychology at uni) I think that mental illness is a complicated thing. I don't think that any *one* thing causes it. I tend to lean towards a diathesis-stress model for why some people experience mental illness.

diathesis-stress model
 
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I was somewhat amused (although, also, somewhat depressed!) by "Old Bathrobe"'s comment in the Grauniad :

quote:
I see that Bowden presents no evidence. He simply pontificates as if he's unable to comprehend the difference between the way things are and the way he thinks they should be
and by Carusian:

quote:
Christianity can certainly cause depression though, especially in less secular areas. In LGBT teens, for example.
Is it any wonder that the general population has a negative attitude about Christians?
Maybe the problem here is that Bowden is starting with a God exists and is good premise and is then building conclusions that seem to follow logically on from there.

For example. I've seen a lot of debates where the theist argues that the truth of God is written on everyone's hearts. Deep down everyone knows the good news. People who end up in hell don't go there through ignorance but through rebellion. Therefore atheists are lying when they say they don't believe in God.

(It's amusing watching how the Atheist tackles this. How do you debate someone who assumes you are lying?)

I can understand where this comes from.
Maybe Bowden believes in original sin and his reasoning is something like this.
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
Okay, George Spigot, I'll bite.

I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?

Please read my posts on the first page of this thread to see that I'm not carrying a brief for Bowden and his asshattery.
 
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
  • God is good and just.
  • Therefore all sickness and evil must come from sin and the fall.
  • Therefore depression must be caused by sin.
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
Okay, George Spigot, I'll bite.

I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?

Please read my posts on the first page of this thread to see that I'm not carrying a brief for Bowden and his asshattery.
Well through debates on the net and in real life I've learned that a lot of christians these days don't believe in the fall causing the worlds woes. I've been told by some that god want's us to have free will. In order for free will to exist there must be choice and the consequence of choice....um

Actualy I'm struggling here as these are not my arguments. Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
 
Posted by Clergy Grandaughter (# 15928) on :
 
First off, can I admit that while I have scanned through all the posts above, I may have missed some points so apologies if I'm being repetitive!

Secondly, I would want to whole heartedly distance myself from Michael Bowden! With those two points clear, for what it's worth here are the thoughts that occurred to me whilst looking at the thread.

Firstly, as was discussed to a degree at the start of the post, I agree that there is an enormous difference between clinical depression and people who feel a bit down. The latter can (admittedly with great willpower) pull themselves out of it with positive thought, religiously inspired or not, where as the former cannot. What I would add to this though is that in my work in the community I have observed what I believe to be a serious over-diagnosing of depression in some communities and/or groups. This occurs most often from what I've seen where someone is quite rightly feeling awful given their circumstances - perhaps living in an abusive relationship or on a very low income in our consumerist society. I understand the driver that makes GPs want to be able to help, and since they don't have a magic wand that can change an abusive partner or increase an income, the urge to prescribe a pill that will help someone feel a little better must be strong. Of course, the real solution to this kind of "depression" lies not with the individual, but with society - it is only when we all make abuse unacceptable or share the country's wealth more fairly that this kind of depression will go. I therefore feel that Christianity can be part of the answer to this kind of low mood, but not when the sufferer becomes a Christian; more when those of us who are start putting our faith into action and when those who are powerful in society find and implement the teachings of Jesus.

In addition to this,not withstanding the fact that I also disagreed with everything else he seemed to be saying, I felt that MB was making a mistake that I used to make - namely confusing stress and depression. His description of people imposing unrealistic expectations and suffering from pride being part of depression seemed to me to be more about stress. Depression and stress can be seen as opposite ends of a spectrum, (worthlessness at one end and expectations of perfection at the other) the healthy point on which is in the middle. These ideas are stolen from Fr Gerald O'Mahony SJ, and I recommend his book "Finding the Still Point" to anyone who feels they're lurching from one side of the spectrum to the other. This is not to suggest for a moment that this would be sufficient to solve clinical depression, which clearly needs expert medical intervention.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
  • God is good and just.
  • Therefore all sickness and evil must come from sin and the fall.
  • Therefore depression must be caused by sin.
Maybe for him to think otherwise would dent his faith in God in some way?
Okay, George Spigot, I'll bite.

I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?

Please read my posts on the first page of this thread to see that I'm not carrying a brief for Bowden and his asshattery.
Well through debates on the net and in real life I've learned that a lot of christians these days don't believe in the fall causing the worlds woes. I've been told by some that god want's us to have free will. In order for free will to exist there must be choice and the consequence of choice....um

Actualy I'm struggling here as these are not my arguments. Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
The logic falls down because 'sin' as in a general state of being fallen is not the same as 'sin' as in a particular example of doing the wrong thing.

I know people who carefully distinguish between being a sinner, and sinning, precisely to avoid equating the two in this way.

The idea that depression is caused by the fall might be theologically okay - I'm not entirely sure, but for these purposes I don't need to be. Because that is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'.

In fact, it's completely against Jesus' own teaching to say the latter. There is an instance of people asking Jesus about a man born blind, "who sinned? Him, or his parents?". And Jesus replies that neither is correct.

[ 04. May 2012, 01:37: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
But his reply is even worse than those two options. [Eek!] [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

I thought your syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity. Where else would sickness and evil come from?

The devil of course.

Or at least, that's Martin Luther's take on depression.

By the by, he has some good tips on treating depression IMO.

Which type (on the spectrum) is up for discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
The reason for suffering is not clear in bog-standard orthodox Christianity.

The fall explains suffering only insofar as we as humans do not live in an ideal state or ideal world.

We chose to remove ourselves from that (the Garden of Eden) because we wanted to be more like God.

We wanted to have free will ( the knowledge of Good and Evil).

Tho really, we had free will to start with.

Otherwise we would never have been able to choose to know Good and Evil.

So the fall doesn't really explain suffering.
 
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
A good point Evensong. The fall doesn't explain suffering, nor does anything else in the Bible. The best we have is the wisdom book of Job, which doesn't give us an answer but tells us that the questions we ask today are much the same as those that have been asked since the beginning.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The logic falls down because 'sin' as in a general state of being fallen is not the same as 'sin' as in a particular example of doing the wrong thing.
Well that's not right. It's you who are confusing and equating the consequences of particular, chosen sin with the consequences of the corporate fall.
quote:
The idea that depression is caused by the fall might be theologically okay....
Glad to hear that.
quote:
[T]hat is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'.
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.


Evensong's incoherent post is a lazy anthology of slogans groping for an answer. Blaming the Devil just pushes the problem onto an hypostasis of evil; but, there is no such thing.

So we are back to sin being a separation from God. It is this separation that gives rise to evil and its consequences.

I reiterate my allusion to the liturgy in my post on the first page:
quote:
When we pray that the Lord will have mercy on us and forgive us our transgressions, those that are both voluntary and involuntary, those that are of word and of deed, and those that are done in knowledge and in ignorance and, nevertheless, to make us worthy to receive him, we acknowledge that it is only sin, corporate and personal, that separates us from him. We need to repent and accept God's approach to us as best we can.
The liturgy never, ever properly speaks in the first person singular. It is always first person plural. We sin. It is our sin that puts us into the predicament: Our sin, our fathers' and mothers' sins, our descendants' sins. The sins known and unknown, voluntary and involuntary.


Plus, at one end of the continuum, some depression is neuro-chemical and wants medical treatment for the neuro-chemical imbalance that it is.

At the other end, some depression is evidence of a disordered soul (the I'm slothful and despondent, suffering from accidie sort) and wants a cure of the soul.

Some depression is a mix of the two, though calling it a one-dimension continuum over simplifies things.


As evidenced upthread, folk have hijacked the word depression to mean exclusively and expressly a neuro-chemical imbalance. That deracinates the word, which has a much richer fund of meaning.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:


Evensong's incoherent post is a lazy anthology of slogans groping for an answer. Blaming the Devil just pushes the problem onto an hypostasis of evil; but, there is no such thing.

So we are back to sin being a separation from God. It is this separation that gives rise to evil and its consequences.
Ohbutohbutohbut orthodox Christianity teaches that we are no longer separated from God. We are reconciled to God in Christ.

Therefore there is no more suffering!

Thank you Jesus!


It's all so clear. It all make so much sense. My suffering is obviously not real. I should become a buddhist.

Thank you Silent Acolyte.


[Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
Unless people have been theough depression they cannot understand how black and empty an experience it can be. it is certainly not an illness of choice any more than epilepsy or leprosy are. It always amazes me how self educated experts purport to know how to cure people from serious illnesses, never considering that their 'cure' might actually exacerbate the condition. I experienced a priest instructing me to stop taking depression medication and to pray more. When I foolishly took his advice, my health deteriorated at a rapid pace and I had to be hospitalised. Thankfully these days I am well due in no small part to medication and skilled medical care and counselling.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.
Ahem. There is a Hell thread about this, running alongside the Purgatory one, precisely BECAUSE we think the person who prompted this thread IS an Ass Hat.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[T]hat is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.
Ahem. There is a Hell thread about this, running alongside the Purgatory one, precisely BECAUSE we think the person who prompted this thread IS an Ass Hat.
Right. But, nobody on this thread is making that simplistic assertion, so it's beside the point.

The meat of the matter is whether there is something other that sin that separates us from God.

Evensong, please take a harder look eschatology. And, on the profit one gets by working the idea of reconciliation next to theosis during these end times.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[T]hat is completely different from pointing to an individual person and saying 'YOUR depression is caused by YOUR sin'
Only Ass Hats say this. You are erecting a straw man.
Ahem. There is a Hell thread about this, running alongside the Purgatory one, precisely BECAUSE we think the person who prompted this thread IS an Ass Hat.
Right. But, nobody on this thread is making that simplistic assertion, so it's beside the point.

The meat of the matter is whether there is something other that sin that separates us from God.

Evensong, please take a harder look eschatology. And, on the profit one gets by working the idea of reconciliation next to theosis during these end times.
Sorry, but did you actually READ THE POST I WAS RESPONDING TO?

It was a post from George Spigot, that was BASED on the guy in the opening post. IT USED HIS NAME. Bowden.

Frankly I have no idea why you came in telling me off, except for some weird idea that I was addressing something you'd said. I wasn't. I was answering a question that was explicitly in the context of the person who generated this thread to begin with. It had absolutely nothing to do with whatever projection you had inserted based on your own contributions to the topic.

[ 08. May 2012, 12:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
And yes, I know, you had given your own response and referred to your contributions on the first page. But that was not the question. When George was referring to 'these are not my arguments', he was referring to what he posted first in the chain. Not to your views. Okay?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Just a side issue really, but there certainly is the notion of unconscious choice (not subconscious), in the analytical therapies. Thus, one could argue that someone might unconsciously choose depression as a way of life, but since it is unconscious, one cannot really remonstrate with the individual about it. One might hope to make the unconscious conscious, so that they can operate in a different way. But this is not a question of will power.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:


Evensong, please take a harder look eschatology. And, on the profit one gets by working the idea of reconciliation next to theosis during these end times.
[Confused]

You want to shift sin and suffering to Judgement Day?

And you think I'm obfuscating about the devil huh?

[Disappointed]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Well through debates on the net and in real life I've learned that a lot of christians these days don't believe in the fall causing the worlds woes. I've been told by some that god want's us to have free will. In order for free will to exist there must be choice and the consequence of choice....um

Actualy I'm struggling here as these are not my arguments. Can anyone else explain the reason for suffering if not the fall? Or is The Silent Acolyte right in saying that my syllogism was bog-standard, orthodox Christianity.
orfeo, it seems you don't want to discuss this with me and that's okay. The antecedent to these arguments seemed to me to be about the relation between free will, the fall, and evil in the world. George Spigot references, what he calls, my syllogism.

The drum that I'm beating on this thread is that everything was hunky dory before the fall and that everything in the world after the fall that is neither hunky nor dory is due entirely to sin. Not necessarily all due to personal sin or to sin that I voluntarily choose, but due to sin nonetheless.

And, that Michael Bowden is an Ass Hat.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
^ Which is exactly the same position that I expressed as being open and sensible, in contrast to labelling it as all caused by personal sin. Which is precisely why it's a total mystery that you felt the need to come along and "correct" me.

[ 11. May 2012, 23:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 


© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0