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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Home religion
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
As far as I can tell (I'm not Jewish), modern Judaism has a balance between rituals done in the home and at the Synagogue. The Shabbat and the Passover Seder both involve formal recognised rituals to be done with the family at home, and in balance there are the High Holidays of the New Year and Yom Kippur which centre around the Synagogue and involve the whole community.
In contrast, the forms of Christianity I'm familiar with don't have any home based rituals, and instead focus almost totally on public Sunday rituals administered by a priest/minister/pastor etc. The closest I can think of is the cultural practice of saying grace before meals, which seems more of a folk ritual than anything else. I can't think of anything as central and important as the Passover Seder.
I find this interesting. Does the difference really exist (or is it just my limited knowledge), and if it does exist, why?
Should there be a greater recognition of responses to God that lie between the public Church and the individual prayer?
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
As far as I can tell (I'm not Christian)one of the changes in the last century or two for mostofus is that part of dying has gone from activities that mostly happened at home; dying, being prepared for burial and the wake to activities that happened in hospitals, funeral parlors and hotels.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
In contrast, the forms of Christianity I'm familiar with don't have any home based rituals, and instead focus almost totally on public Sunday rituals administered by a priest/minister/pastor etc. The closest I can think of is the cultural practice of saying grace before meals, which seems more of a folk ritual than anything else.
Not familiar with daily study of the bible, journalling, disciplined intercessory prayer, studying the bible in small groups, sharing the Good News with friends and family or being inspired by God to do good works? Add these to giving thanks before a meal (which is definitely NOT just a folk ritual) and you easily spend far more time doing Christianity outside of a couple of hours on a Sunday.
You just need to find some better forms of Christianity.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Not familiar with daily study of the bible, journalling, disciplined intercessory prayer, studying the bible in small groups, sharing the Good News with friends and family or being inspired by God to do good works? Add these to giving thanks before a meal (which is definitely NOT just a folk ritual) and you easily spend far more time doing Christianity outside of a couple of hours on a Sunday.
I suppose some of those would be rituals in the broader sense. They do seem somehow qualitively different to either a Passover Seder or any form of Mass/Holy Communion though.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
You're right, they are not rituals. They are part of a relationship. Even when I am part of a service on a weekend, it's something I do as a part of a relationship, not from religion.
Christianity is not about ritual and religion, it's about relationship. If you've spent any timer reading the accounts of Christ's ministry, you will see that one of the main things he did was cut the religious leaders down to size, so much so that it was the Jewish religious elite who had Jesus killed on the cross.
[ 27. April 2012, 06:22: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
But Christianity does have rituals. My point is that the rituals mostly seem to happen in church on a Sunday and not at home, and I'm looking for a conversation on that point.
(And it was the Roman imperial authorities who had Jesus killed on the cross, but this is a tangent)
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But Christianity does have rituals. My point is that the rituals mostly seem to happen in church on a Sunday and not at home, and I'm looking for a conversation on that point.
This doesn't match my experience at all. Most Orthodox homes will have a prayer corner or room with icons, lamps, holy water, blessed palms, perhaps an incense burner, and other accoutrements of prayer. This is where people will say their morning and evening prayers each day, not to mention the usual preparatory prayers before receiving Communion. I know both Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians who do something similar. As an Anglican, I had a similar prayer corner for when I prayed the Divine Office.
Every year at or around Theophany, people have the priest come their homes to bless them and, in the western tradition, people take the blessed chalk home to mark their doorways of their homes in the customary way. Orthodox families will sometimes have a family icon near the entry to their homes depicting the patron saints of the family members, and the custom is to venerate those saints upon entering the home, and I know Catholic, Anglican, and Methodist Christians who have something similar in icon or statue form.
This Christianity without home-based rituals is alien to my experience.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I agree with the Giant Cheeseburger; I would see rituals as essentially man-made, not that that makes them 'wrong' as some Christians find them useful to connect with the Lord, but they are certainly not essential to Christianity. But we do pray at meals in our home, either Mrs B or I always prays with the children when we put them to bed, and we on a more 'as it happens' basis talk about God with the kids and each other. None of these is 'ritualistic' in nature but they do constitute Christian observance within our family and home and form part of our 'whole life discipleship'. In addition, our two older kids attend a Christian school so for them faith is definitely not just something that happens for two hours on a Sunday morning.
[ETA - I suppose one example of a home-based ritual is that we had all three of our children baptised by my uncle, a Catholic priest, in our house! But that was because of our rather unusual family set-up than because we had a peculiar desire to do this at home.]
[ 27. April 2012, 10:20: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
This doesn't match my experience at all.
Cool. So you would say my perception of a difference in this area between Christianity and Judaism is just a reflection of my own experiences and not Christianity more generally. That's interesting, thanks.
Are there any home based rituals in Orthodoxy that involve neither private prayer or a priest visiting? Those seem to be the two main categories you describe in your post.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
faith is definitely not just something that happens for two hours on a Sunday morning.
I guess my OP was focused on how faith was expressed in rituals out of those two hours. So it doesn't really connect with faith traditions which have a minimal ritual component.
I was particularly thinking of the Passover Seder, where a very important memorial remembrance ceremony (comparable to Easter or Christmas) was based around family and home.
Many people I know gather for a Christmas day lunch, but this isn't a 'religious' gathering per se!
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
[ETA - I suppose one example of a home-based ritual is that we had all three of our children baptised by my uncle, a Catholic priest, in our house! But that was because of our rather unusual family set-up than because we had a peculiar desire to do this at home.]
That's a great example. Though as you say it is an example of a normally public/Church based ritual which was for unusual reasons 'home-ified' rather than a ritual normally expected to be in a home.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Are there any home based rituals in Orthodoxy that involve neither private prayer or a priest visiting? Those seem to be the two main categories you describe in your post.
That's largely because of the focus of the christian life in the home on prayer and an extension of the sacramental life of the church. So it's natural that domestic rituals will reflect this. Other examples would fit the same sort of mould. So, for instance, the herbs blessed at church at Dormition and the basil used on feasts of the Cross are often taken home and used in cooking dinner. Candles blessed at Candlemass will be taken home and used in the prayer corner, and so forth.
I know in some places, it is customary to get a special, large candle for use as the baptismal candle at a child's baptism. This is then saved in the family home, in the prayer area, and is used as the wedding candle if that child then grows up to marry.
There are plenty of little customs like this, and they vary from culture to culture. In Britain, we're blessed to live in an Orthodox melting pot so get to learn of different ones.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Demas
I can see what you're getting at, at least from a contemporary, western, Protestant point of view.
In the past, there was more of a tradition of family Bible reading in the home, reading together around the fire. Now, each Christian has their own Bible, and reads privately in their room. Fasting used to be something with family implications, but now very few Christians seem to fast.
I think the thing is that Christian practice has been individualised. In the UK, many Christians will be sharing homes with family members who aren't active believers. In such cases, it's impossible to have 'family rituals' because trying to impose these on a spouse or a teenager who doesn't want to participate will only cause conflict. The modern family values and promotes independence to a far greater degree than was the case in the past.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
As a Presbyterian, I wouldn't describe what we do in church on Sunday as a ritual either, except for Communion, which only happens a few times a year. We say grace before meals at home, but don't regard it as a ritual.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
As a Presbyterian, I wouldn't describe what we do in church on Sunday as a ritual either, except for Communion, which only happens a few times a year. We say grace before meals at home, but don't regard it as a ritual.
Some people seem to be uneasy with the word 'ritual'. But let's be honest; we're talking about doing the same thing, in the same way, in the same place, with the same people, at the same time, on a regular basis. I think it seems a bit strange to resist the word 'ritual' in such cases.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think the thing is that Christian practice has been individualised.
This is a very interesting point. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
One thing which comes to mind is that there are secular Haggadah (liturgies for the Passover Seder) for non-religious Jews. I can't imagine a secular Bible reading ritual for non-religious Christians.
If you have to believe to participate then it makes sense that you end up with private Bible readers, who regularly congregate with other like-minded individuals to discuss and act on their common beliefs.
Doesn't sound appetising when I describe it like that though.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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crunt
Shipmate
# 1321
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Posted
Christian rituals in the home? I'm thinking prayers before bed time with children (ritualised invocation of God's blessings on the family); there's also grace before meals, the ritual of asking the youngest to repeat the formulaic prayer. Easter - do Easter egg traditions count? "Giving things up" for Lent. Families may ritualise the custom of painting / hiding / giving eggs to each other, they may also pin their palm crosses to the same places every year. There was also the daily ritual of opening another window in the Advent calendar during the lead up to Christmas, and festival meals also take on a ritualistic flavour when we repeat them in the same manner every year.
I'm not sure if the OP (who says he's not Jewish) is not looking at Jewish ritual in the home through the romantic lens of the 'other'. I'm not Jewish either, but I would imagine that modern post-religious / neo-secular Jewish families approach their traditional rituals in much the same way as modern Christian families do, and they just do them because they enjoy them, it's their tradition and they are just part and parcel of family life.
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QUIZ: Bible
QUIZ: world religions
LTL Discussion
languagespider.com
Posts: 269 | From: Up country in the middle of Malaysia | Registered: Sep 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think the thing is that Christian practice has been individualised.
quote:
Posted by Demas:
This is a very interesting point. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
One thing which comes to mind is that there are secular Haggadah (liturgies for the Passover Seder) for non-religious Jews. I can't imagine a secular Bible reading ritual for non-religious Christians.
Well, Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion. Christianity is a religion. Ethnicity is supposedly irrelevant. The idea of being a 'secular Christian' doesn't seem entirely biblical.
quote:
If you have to believe to participate then it makes sense that you end up with private Bible readers, who regularly congregate with other like-minded individuals to discuss and act on their common beliefs.
Doesn't sound appetising when I describe it like that though.
Of course, after centuries of Christendom (as some people call it) we do have 'cultural Christians' who are quite happy to sing Christmas carols or to send their children to religious schools, without setting much store by orthodox Christian belief itself.
Some commentators talk about the existence of 'folk religion', the nature of which must be difficult to establish if it's practised privately and without official sanction.
What kind of 'home religion' do you think might be suitable for 'secular Christians'? I'm not sure that secular Christians are really looking to the church to assist them with their private spirituality. However, I think some clergy have a different view.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
When we get in the car to go somewhere, my husband calls on my son to pray for us. (this is usually a joint thing, since Vietnamese is involved)
Every night before bed we have family Bible reading with prayer. This is a hand-me-down tradition from my father-in-law, who did so in Vietnam (though I hope I would have invented something similar if it weren't).
We do have grace at meals also, which is not ritual. And we talk about God as matters come up (which means more or less daily, then).
In extreme need we have the Lord's Supper at home. Normally we wait for the Sunday congregation, as this seems something that should not be turned into a family private thing on a regular basis.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
As I understand it, traditionally women play an important role in the Jewish Friday evening rituals, but have no specific role in the synagogue.
If this is the case, it means that each sex has a specific sphere.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think the thing is that Christian practice has been individualised.
Yes.
Especially so, I think, here in the US, among Protestants -- especially of the con-evo variety. "Jesus had me on his mind while he was hanging on the cross."
While in some respects this does have some positive aspects to it, the problem I see with this independent Christianity is that it's very different from the Christianity of the rest of the Church throughout history.
I had the opportunity to eat dinner with a Messianic Jewish family during Hanukkah. The discussion revolved around the fact that Judaism is not an individual faith, but a corporate one. Mr. B was talking about how, if he messes up or is weak, he is held strong by his Jewish brethren. The impression I got was that Judaism (and I have no idea if it's Conservative, Reform, Orthodox, or whether it even matters) is very much a corporate faith, that doing things in common with the other families of the synagogue and the rest of the Jewish faithful is very important.
What this suggests to me is that perhaps we're too independent-minded. Further studies about Orthodox Christians and the connections they have with each other and the Church leads me to believe that we need to be much more connected than we are. We say we are one body, but we act like we're decidedly not.
We often don't think about the fact that our prayers join in together with the rest of the congregation, with the rest of the diocese, with all other Christians, past, present, and future. Since I am one who claims to "believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church" and "the communion of saints", this is the main reason I like the Book of Common Prayer and the RCL. Having those prayers and readings in common with so many other Christians is very important to me, because we're not all lone rangers, but are part of something much larger than ourselves.
As far as rituals go, we need to stop being afraid of the word. Especially those of us who prefer more contemporary forms of worship.
We are liturgical beings. We operate with ceremony. We are creatures of habit, so we tend to do the same things in the same order. We may say that we are non-liturgical, that we don’t have a set pattern or style of worship, but we are lying to ourselves. Freemasonry. Graduations (from elementary school? Who are we kidding here?). Presidential inaugurations and royal coronations. Christening of ships. Weddings. College football pre-game traditions. Yes, we are liturgical beings. We operate with ceremony.
Let's own the word ritual. Let's not automatically assume that just because it's printed in a book to do in church it is automatically dead. And really, if ritual is such a bad thing, why does it permeate every fiber of our being?
For crying out loud, our morning routine is a ritual: Alarm goes off, get up, go make coffee, turn on computer, drink coffee, read SoF until past time to begin getting ready, shower, shave, brush teeth, grab a bagel and a second coffee on way out door, make it to the bus stop just in time...
So now we can begin to put it all together. Prayer, as Michael hinted at above, is very basic to the Christian way of life. It should be with us at every stage of our day, both in unscripted form and in the form that the Church, through its wisdom, has handed down to us through the years. Since I have such an affinity for the rhythms of the church year, my evening prayer and reading time is very closely tied with the kalendar.
My family occasionally commemorates a Jewish holiday, and many Christians I know celebrate Shabbot at home. Incorporate some of these rituals, if they are helpful to you and your family. But don't discount the power of simple evening prayer and Bible reading, of saying the same prayers every night, and of learning to sing a song (O Gladsome Light is my favorite for evening). Light a candle to show Christ's light in our midst, and give thanks for the light.
It doesn't have to be ornate to be powerful. Just choose things that connect you with the wider Church, because I believe that's important.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
The Advent wreath was a memorable part of my childhood at home, starting in second grade when we moved to Madison and all became Episcopalians. I'll never forget Dad reading those sonorous Advent collects before supper.
Granted, this is only during one part of the year, but so is Passover.
Many traditions can be adopted for those interested. Many years ago, I saw a book in the public library describing them, arranged in calendar order. I've long forgotten the author or title, but this looks like a more recent collection along the same lines:
Catholic Traditions in the Home and Classroom
A prerequisite, of course, is a rich observation of both cycles of the liturgical year in church. If you don't believe in those, I can understand how you would be at a loss for ideas.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I mentioned on the funeral thread about two recently dead friends each having no funeral. (My Mom used to send Christmas cards to 100 people, as she got older some of them came back marked "deceased" and that's how she found out about the death of a friend. There is no mechanism for notifying friends.)
On that funeral thread it newly occurred to me if *I* think attending a friend's funeral would be in some way "good" for me but for some reason I can't (including finding out way too late), then maybe I need to develop a home ritual that offers some of whatever a funeral offers -- include in it writing letters to connect with others who loved the person -- allowing myself some of the ritual that seems to be how humans mark significant change in their lives.
i.e. think about why we want ritual, and design one that meets our needs.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I mentioned on the funeral thread about two recently dead friends each having no funeral. (My Mom used to send Christmas cards to 100 people, as she got older some of them came back marked "deceased" and that's how she found out about the death of a friend. There is no mechanism for notifying friends.)
Don't people usually hear about these things on the grapevine? And sometimes deaths are announced in the newspapers.
Different cultures do things differently. In my parents' culture, funerals are very open affairs, and anyone with any vague connection to the deceased is welcome to attend. For this to occur, you have to ensure that everyone knows what's happened. I've noticed that in western culture, funerals are a little more low-key, and it's not considered so important for 'everyone' to be there.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
We don't have a lot of overt ritual in our home, but we do have some: We have Advent wreath candlelightings and readings; we've taken to the revival of "chalking the doors" at Epiphany, asking God's blessing on our home for the year; if we have Thanksgiving at our house we'll do a circle where everyone can talk about things they've been thankful for over the past year (a ritual that's comfortable for non-Christians to participate in). We don't do table grace on a consistent basis, but when we have a "nice" meal like Sunday dinner in our dining room, we say grace. (I can't say we're less grateful for a hamburger and chips while we're watching TV...it's just a bit of sloppiness on our parts.) Food/sharing it with others has a ritual quality anyway, and one can also understand things like Lenten fasting disciplines and making special foods on special days as a kind of domestic ritual intended to remind us of our faith.
I think taking time during the day for reading the Daily Office, or parts of it, has a ritual quality as well.
Back at my old house I had a home altar on one shelf of a living room bookcase, with iconography of Christ Pantocrator, a candle and a couple other items with symbolic meaning, including a small receptacle for writing down prayers. It was nice, a kind of visual touchstone every day even if I wasn't actively doing things before the altar. We don't have a space in my current home that provides the same sort of natural focal point, which is a shame.
I know some Lutherpalian households who follow the Benedictine Rule to one degree or other, who do more with the Daily Office and a home altar on a daily basis.
Demas, especially among RC and Anglican homeschoolers there's an interest in "the domestic Church" -- i.e, incorporating teaching and ritual into the activities of everyday life and involving all the family. If you Google "domestic church" you'll find all sorts of resources about this. In our church, because our families have many barriers to participating in a "traditional" Sunday School program (quotes because this is a 19th century idea, one to help Christian/civilize/teach literacy skills to working-class children, whose present form usually bears little resemblence to the original concept), we send monthly packets to families of young children that include prayers, Scripture readings and activities that parents and children can do together.
I would strenuously disagree with Cheeseburger's dismissive and insulting attitude toward ritual. (Pounding nails into Christ's wrists, are we, with our family devotions and Advent wreaths and Lenten meals? Seriously?) Human beings are wired for ritual. The question becomes, then, what rituals are most beneficial and meaningful for us as Christians individually, in households and in the greater community. I once had this type of discussion with the most ardent fundamentalist minimalist whose life was actually filled with religious ritual but who went ballistic if one suggested that what she was doing was not that much different than the homey domestic rituals of we more catholic folks.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
In contrast, the forms of Christianity I'm familiar with don't have any home based rituals, and instead focus almost totally on public Sunday rituals administered by a priest/minister/pastor etc. The closest I can think of is the cultural practice of saying grace before meals, which seems more of a folk ritual than anything else.
Not familiar with daily study of the bible, journalling, disciplined intercessory prayer, studying the bible in small groups, sharing the Good News with friends and family or being inspired by God to do good works? Add these to giving thanks before a meal (which is definitely NOT just a folk ritual) and you easily spend far more time doing Christianity outside of a couple of hours on a Sunday.
You just need to find some better forms of Christianity.
It's different. The passover seder, for instance, has its own form of liturgy but is done entirely in the home by lay people. It's a separate religious service revolving around an actual (not merely symbolic) meal.
Private devotions of prayer and bible study are one thing (and religious Jews do this as well). Observance of ancient family rituals to mark the progression of the religious year is different. Christianity has nothing analogous to a family seder or Sukkot or Purim - anything we have that is similar sprung up out of folk customs, not religion.
Of course, modern Judaism doesn't have priests or any real analog to it. Rabbis are learned men qualified to fill certain legal roles like overseeing marriage, divorce and kosher laws, but are not ministers in the same way that we have ministers in Christianity. Any adult (in the stricter forms, men only) is qualified to say any prayer or lead any service without the help or oversight of a rabbi.
So it's perhaps more natural that certain religious functions take place in the context of the family and not the congregation - you don't need a rabbi to come over and officiate at your seder, and the home is cozier than a synagogue.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
For both Jews and Christians, there is a understanding the individual should connect with God through prayer. The connection between Jewish weekday [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddur]siddurim and those Christians who have as part of their denominational tradition daily prayer books is one that has fascinated me for decades.
One thing that I love, as an Episcopalian who totes at least two BCPs with her wherever she goes, is that the BCP's 30 day psalter cycle matches up with a Jewish tradition to read through Tehillim in 30 days.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Even when I am part of a service on a weekend, it's something I do as a part of a relationship, not from religion.
Christianity is not about ritual and religion, it's about relationship.
Ugh, that old saw again. Do you go to church at all? If so, how is that not "religion"? Or do you really think that it's just 500 of your closest friends having individual relationships with Christ all at the same time, with a pastor up there suggesting things you and Christ should talk about?
If you really are a rugged individualist, just you and Christ against the world, I suppose that you did all of your own independent Bible study, without any help or suggestions from anyone else. No one nudged you toward your unique and independent one-on-one relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior(TM), right?
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
No one nudged you toward your unique and independent one-on-one relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior(TM), right?
I object to this "Lord and Savior" stuff -- it seems awfully authoritarian. Jesus is my friend. [Cue "Jesus is just alright with me."].. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--Tom Clune
[x-posted with LC]
[ 27. April 2012, 15:22: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Even when I am part of a service on a weekend, it's something I do as a part of a relationship, not from religion.
Christianity is not about ritual and religion, it's about relationship.
Ugh, that old saw again. Do you go to church at all? If so, how is that not "religion"? Or do you really think that it's just 500 of your closest friends having individual relationships with Christ all at the same time, with a pastor up there suggesting things you and Christ should talk about?
If you really are a rugged individualist, just you and Christ against the world, I suppose that you did all of your own independent Bible study, without any help or suggestions from anyone else. No one nudged you toward your unique and independent one-on-one relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior(TM), right?
Fellowship is not religion IMO. Religion I would class as man's attempt to reach God; Christianity is God reaching man through Jesus and is therefore the antithesis of religion.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Fellowship is not religion IMO. Religion I would class as man's attempt to reach God; Christianity is God reaching man through Jesus and is therefore the antithesis of religion.
Well, I can make up my own definitions of common words in order to disprove others' statements as well.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
A ritual my grandmother used to do: She would bless loaves of bread as she made them by making the sign of the cross on them when they came out of the oven. I think this was intended as a general thanksgiving for food (very appropriate in her poverty-plagued household) and a benediction upon anyone who shared the bread.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Fellowship is not religion IMO. Religion I would class as man's attempt to reach God; Christianity is God reaching man through Jesus and is therefore the antithesis of religion.
Well, I can make up my own definitions of common words in order to disprove others' statements as well.
What I mean by that is that it isn't and doesn't have to be 'ritualistic' (except from an anthropological POV I guess).
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Fellowship is not religion IMO. Religion I would class as man's attempt to reach God; Christianity is God reaching man through Jesus and is therefore the antithesis of religion.
Well, I can make up my own definitions of common words in order to disprove others' statements as well.
What I mean by that is that it isn't and doesn't have to be 'ritualistic' (except from an anthropological POV I guess).
What of Jesus's charge to his disciples at The Last Supper to "do this in remembrance of me"? The Last Supper itself is a passover seder, which is quintessential ritual.
I don't think the whole of Christian worship has to be rote or formulaic, but the idea that ritual is anathema in Christianity and that Christianity is solely a "personal relationship" and not "evil religion" is pablum for simple minds.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
The Advent wreath was a memorable part of my childhood at home.
And of mine, as well.
So many of us now live alone, and so many families with children aren't able to have meals together, except occasionally. Too much work, too many jobs, too many overlapping schedules.
There's the real problem for most of us in the US, and I think it's much the same in Great Britain. That would be the hole down which the home religious rituals disappeared.
A PS: Any Catholic Shipmates out there remember being dressed in a scapular before heading off to grade school? Is this still done?
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I do find it odd that many Protestants still think that ritual is something evil, when in fact they are just as ritualistic as other Christians. There used to be a distinction between "ritual" as beingt the words and "ceremonial" being the actions, but that usage can be used in appropriate situations.
Even Quakers, who wake, go to the loo, get dressed, go to meeting, and sit is a ceremonial or ritual action just as extreme as any other.
I do get annoyed when people call what others do bad meaningless evil ritual but what they always and repeatedly do is pure Christianity. Ignorance or hypocrisy, probably both, in my opionion.
I wish all Christians had Home Relgion like what is describe by many people here. Grandmothers signing loaves, lighting advent wreaths, saying prayers at bed time, family devotions. I wish all parents would teach their children to make the Sign of the Cross and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs together, and offer prayer as a family, weekly or better yet daily or more often.
of course there needs to be a link between Sunday worship and our daily lives, a living connection with the Christian Year. The family office or rosary, or Bible reading or other devotions would be perfect ways to do this.
Feast on feast days, perhaps a special meal or desert for each apostle or evangelist, meatless meals on Fridays out of Christmas and Easter, so many ways. I hope we can see a come back of these things.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
As a Presbyterian, I wouldn't describe what we do in church on Sunday as a ritual either, except for Communion, which only happens a few times a year. We say grace before meals at home, but don't regard it as a ritual.
Some people seem to be uneasy with the word 'ritual'. But let's be honest; we're talking about doing the same thing, in the same way, in the same place, with the same people, at the same time, on a regular basis. I think it seems a bit strange to resist the word 'ritual' in such cases.
Indeed. I've been involved in working thru some recent research on "sticky faith"-- the factors that tend to make faith "stick" in young people thru college years and beyond. "Rituals" that tie them to a particular Christian community, as well as home-based rituals that give them opportunities to witness their parents living out their faith in some small way, are both coming up as key components of "stickiness".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Lets you just see something before you shout about Protestants not having home religion you might like to consider this doctorate. From my own studies I doubt he was short of material.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
It's different. The passover seder, for instance, has its own form of liturgy but is done entirely in the home by lay people. It's a separate religious service revolving around an actual (not merely symbolic) meal.
Private devotions of prayer and bible study are one thing (and religious Jews do this as well). Observance of ancient family rituals to mark the progression of the religious year is different. Christianity has nothing analogous to a family seder or Sukkot or Purim - anything we have that is similar sprung up out of folk customs, not religion.
Of course, modern Judaism doesn't have priests or any real analog to it. Rabbis are learned men qualified to fill certain legal roles like overseeing marriage, divorce and kosher laws, but are not ministers in the same way that we have ministers in Christianity. Any adult (in the stricter forms, men only) is qualified to say any prayer or lead any service without the help or oversight of a rabbi.
So it's perhaps more natural that certain religious functions take place in the context of the family and not the congregation - you don't need a rabbi to come over and officiate at your seder, and the home is cozier than a synagogue.
You are beginning to hit on something that I think answers the OP.
I attended my first family Seder this year, and before we got going, we talked about the origin of Jewish home worship. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Judaism had to reform with the destruction of the temple. When you have a religion that is specifically based on worship and sacrifice in a particular building, but then that building is destroyed and the followers of that religion move all over the world, the basic practice of your religion has to change. Home religion was something that arose out of that change.
So I would agree with the OP. Home religion is a specific and important part of Jewish culture, in a way that home religion is not a specific part of Christianity. It isn't just something that Jews do "better" than Christians. It is the response of a specific religious group to a specific historical crisis.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I attended my first family Seder this year, and before we got going, we talked about the origin of Jewish home worship. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Judaism had to reform with the destruction of the temple. When you have a religion that is specifically based on worship and sacrifice in a particular building, but then that building is destroyed and the followers of that religion move all over the world, the basic practice of your religion has to change. Home religion was something that arose out of that change.
Here's the problem I find with this analysis: Christianity was a part of Judaism thoughout this change. While books like Hebrews argue for a particular way to see Christ as the model for how to transition from a Temple-based practice to a post-Temple practice, we should not lose sight of the fact that Christianity was Jewish religion for the first century or more.
Most folks place the final break at the Bar Kochba revolt. I have seen some folks argue that it was considerably later than that. Either way, it is problematic to use this as the basis for home ritual in Judaism that Christians lack.
And, from the other end of the telescope, most folks seem to view the Last Supper as a kind of home ritual seder itself -- and that antedated the destruction of the Temple, of course. FWIW
--Tom Clune
[ 27. April 2012, 17:23: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I think the shift has as much to do with culture as anything. As we have seen already, there are and probably always have been at least some subgroups within Christianity that have vibrant home-based rituals. And many of our secular rituals about Christmas or things like saying grace around the supper table (which has-- debatably I think-- been dismissed here as "folk religion") would have initially been much more thoughtfully religious home-based rituals, and in some cases still is. I'm fairly certain that once we get out of Europe and North America, particularly when we get to places where Christianity experiences persecution, we're going to find much more home-based rituals.
I would speculate two possible sources for the decline of home-based rituals in the US & Europe among Protestants (pure spit-balling here):
1. The overall cultural shift to a broader segmentation of child-rearing-- as education, recreation, and other aspects of what was once the parents' sole responsibility increasingly are shifted to the public sphere, it makes sense (not necessarily a good shift, just a logical one), that this parenting task, too, shifted over to a more "public" sphere. Especially in the US and Europe where Christianity was, for a time, a form of "civil religion" and your local parish could be seen as "the place where we do faith formation".
2. The aforementioned overreaction of Protestants to what they perceive (wrongly, I believe) to be "mindless ritual". Even as I'm exploring with parents the results of our recent research re: the association of rituals with "sticky faith", I'm immediately met with a kickback of "but then it will become empty and routine", usually followed, sadly, with "like the Catholics". This persistent mythology I think colors even many of our conversations about rituals, even as we ignore/relabel the ritualistic aspects of our own behavior.
[ 27. April 2012, 17:43: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
They weren't in an upper room in Galilee. They were in Jerusalem for the Passover. So the home religion may have been developing (this was post-Babylonian captivity, so that would make sense), but between Jesus' parents presenting him in the temple and sacrificing the doves and Jesus and his followers going to Jerusalem for Passover, you can see that the temple is still important to the religious practice of the Jewish people.
I don't see why Christianity's origin in Judaism has to be problematic. It wasn't as if there was an edict a few days after the destruction of the temple saying "now we do home worship." The oldest haggadahs we have are ninth or tenth century documents, so it took a while. There were probably a lot of different views on what the response should be. The one that eventually prevailed in main-line Judaism was home worship. That view didn't instill itself in the Christian sect, or at least died out in the last 1900 years or so.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Perhaps it's worth adding that until the founding of Sunday schools at the very end of the 18th c. Anglophone Protestants were expected to see to the christianisation of their children in their own homes. Religious professionals were not required for this purpose. (Although the first Sunday schools were principally about teaching reading, evangelism seems to have developed a bigger role, over time.)
It seems as though the 'contracting out' of religious education for children wasn't a good idea in the long run, because it encouraged parents to see this this as someone else's responsability.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Jesus' parents presenting him in the temple and sacrificing the doves
This brings up a question I have had for awhile. Some Christian authorities say that sacrifices in the temple "never did any good" (to quote one preacher, and a solidly Anglo-Catholic one at that). How can this opinion be squared with the example of the Holy Family? Is this an interesting enough question for a new topic?
quote:
The oldest haggadahs we have are ninth or tenth century documents, so it took a while. There were probably a lot of different views on what the response should be. The one that eventually prevailed in main-line Judaism was home worship.
Perhaps the persecution of the Jews had a part in that trend. Public worship was made difficult, so they used their own homes. Early Christians did likewise. But I think that it is a good idea in any case, to supplement and balance weekly public worship.
A Jewish family, at least reportedly, lived across the street and just a few houses down from us when I was a kid. We never so much as saw them in the yard. They seemed to be extraordinarily quiet people, keeping themselves to themselves, but probably with a culturally and spiritually rich life inside. At least that is what I imagined. I rather admired that.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Demas, especially among RC and Anglican homeschoolers there's an interest in "the domestic Church" -- i.e, incorporating teaching and ritual into the activities of everyday life and involving all the family. If you Google "domestic church" you'll find all sorts of resources about this.
This is my experience.Though I didn't grow up in a Catholic home, I'm familiar enough with the customs to say that in a properly formed Catholic home, there would be plenty of space for home religion. Take a look at This link, for example. There's the myriad of blessed items- Medals, beads, water,food, oils, salt, incense, candles- all to be used at home in various ways. Many families have the daily family rosary, or perpetual novenas. One family in my parish says compline together every night after dinner.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
That's the kind of thing we're trying to inculcate at least on a small scale in our congregation's young families with our monthly packets of family devotions and shared activity ideas.
A previous post mentioned the "shopping out" of responsibilities beyond the home circle. My pastor, when describing our un-Sunday-School program, makes the same point: in Luther's time, religious formation of children was largely parents' responsibility, and in fact the Small Catechism was written, not for pastors or designated teachers of children, but for households. Ditto Luther's Morning and Evening Prayer.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I mentioned on the funeral thread about two recently dead friends each having no funeral. (My Mom used to send Christmas cards to 100 people, as she got older some of them came back marked "deceased" and that's how she found out about the death of a friend. There is no mechanism for notifying friends.)
Don't people usually hear about these things on the grapevine? And sometimes deaths are announced in the newspapers.
Different cultures do things differently. In my parents' culture, funerals are very open affairs, and anyone with any vague connection to the deceased is welcome to attend. For this to occur, you have to ensure that everyone knows what's happened. I've noticed that in western culture, funerals are a little more low-key, and it's not considered so important for 'everyone' to be there.
I've noticed this as well. Where I grew up, it was considered proper to go to funerals of relatives of classmates, neighbours, work colleagues, and so forth. There would be no questions asked when the time was sought off school or work. It was how things were done. It was a mark of respect, support, and community.
By contrast, in Britain, it isn't difficult to find people in their 20s or even 30s who have never been to a funeral, seen a dead body, and so forth. I think this is part of the wider culture of embarrassment about death that permeates so much of how things pertaining to it are treated here but I've ranted about that sufficiently in the past.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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savedbyhim01
Apprentice
# 17035
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Posted
It used to be popular for Christian families to have "family worship." This is a time of devotions, reading the Word, singing, and praying together. While it is less common than it used to be, many more conservative Christians still have similar practices. I grew up meeting with my whole family every weekday at 7:00 AM to have 30-60 minutes of family devotions. The Bible commands parents to train up their kids and talk with their kids about the things of God all the time (see Deuteronomy 6). If more parents decided to put these principles into practice instead of relying on the Sunday School teacher it would make a hue difference in the next generation.
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Matthew 28:18-20
My Inductive Bible Study Notes
Posts: 31 | From: China | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Perhaps it's worth adding that until the founding of Sunday schools at the very end of the 18th c. Anglophone Protestants were expected to see to the christianisation of their children in their own homes. Religious professionals were not required for this purpose. (Although the first Sunday schools were principally about teaching reading, evangelism seems to have developed a bigger role, over time.)
It seems as though the 'contracting out' of religious education for children wasn't a good idea in the long run, because it encouraged parents to see this this as someone else's responsability.
During 18th and 19th centuries, it was certainly the wife and mother's job to oversee the spiritual side of the home front; ensuring the servants were good churchgoers, catechizing the children to a certain extent in their Bible. I get the impression from some contemporary literature that the man of the house leading prayers in the home was quite a common thing in middle-class homes; servants and family gathered in the breakfast room, kind of thing, first thing in the morning.
But the only thing I can think of now in that way, is when parents help their children to say their prayers at bed-time, or grace at meal-times. I have to admit outside of daily office, I have no home rituals, and know hardly anyone else who does, apart from the occasional priest who has a small altar set up in a spare room etc.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Just a note: the move from Temple ritual to home ritual in Judaism dates from the period after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Jon Levenson has a good discussion of it in (if I recall correctly) 'Sinai and Zion.' The table replaces the altar.
[ 28. April 2012, 08:08: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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