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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: TEC Protestants
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
I'm wondering if there is some sort of organization for Protestant-minded Episcopalians like there is Forward in Faith and Affirming Catholicism for Catholic-minded folk.
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Fulcrum.
That's in the UK and there are others.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
jordan32404 is asking about TEC though, Balaam. Fulcrum is a UK-only organization AFAIK.
[ 29. April 2012, 18:54: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
jordan32404 is asking about TEC though, Balaam. Fulcrum is a UK-only organization AFAIK.
From the site:
quote:
"I see the launch of Fulcrum as a call to evangelical Anglicans of whatever background to work together, to play a full part in the Church of England and the wider Anglican Communion, to make the running, instead of always reacting, to be in the front row of innovative Gospel-work." Tom Wright, Bishop of Durham, Fulcrum National Launch
Sounds like he wants to take it beyond these shores.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Fair enough, Spike, I'm happy to be corrected if it has spread beyond the UK.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Hairy Biker
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# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I'm wondering if there is some sort of organization for Protestant-minded Episcopalians like there is Forward in Faith and Affirming Catholicism for Catholic-minded folk.
What exactly do you mean by "Protestant-minded"? I thought all Anglicans were protestants.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I'm wondering if there is some sort of organization for Protestant-minded Episcopalians like there is Forward in Faith and Affirming Catholicism for Catholic-minded folk.
What exactly do you mean by "Protestant-minded"? I thought all Anglicans were protestants.
I think that Anglicanism is Protestant, myself, but the folks in FIFNA or Affirming Catholicism wouldn't say so.
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
FiF and AffCath don't speak for he Church, and honestly I can hardly think of any "real life" Anglicans that deny the Protestantism of TEC.
I can't think of any organizations, but the low-church seminary is VTS.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
FiF and AffCath don't speak for he Church, and honestly I can hardly think of any "real life" Anglicans that deny the Protestantism of TEC.
I can't think of any organizations, but the low-church seminary is VTS.
VTS isn't low church anymore necessarily. All sorts of dioceses send people there for training - it's Trinity, Ambridge that you'll want for the full pretty effect I guess.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
FiF and AffCath don't speak for he Church, and honestly I can hardly think of any "real life" Anglicans that deny the Protestantism of TEC.
Hello! Good to meet you. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I think "Protestant-minded" is a decent way to say it. Personally, I consider Anglicanism to be Catholic, but reformed. Some people call it "Catholic and Protestant," and mean roughly the same thing, I think.
But I don't mean to derail this thread.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
FiF and AffCath don't speak for he Church, and honestly I can hardly think of any "real life" Anglicans that deny the Protestantism of TEC.
I can't think of any organizations, but the low-church seminary is VTS.
How about all the diocese in the entire Southeastern United States?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I hate to tell you people this, but you aren't real. You're the internet! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
This here site is about the only place I know of that gets all heated up about Anglicans being Protestants.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
What exactly do you mean by "Protestant-minded"? I thought all Anglicans were protestants.
I'm cradle C of E and I don't think I'm protestant. I don't accept sola scriptura and I don't accept justification by faith alone.
I say the rosary. I go to confession. I make a point of going to mass every Sunday. I go on retreat to monasteries. I go on pilgrimage.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
I grew up in the Protestant Episcopal Church. I don't know why or when they changed the name, but 20 years ago I was in a clergy person's office, I made a comment, he said "that's Protestant thinking, Episcopalians aren't Protestants," I replied "I grew up in the Protestant Episcopal church."
People on Eccles have insisted the Anglican Communion is not Protestant. (If I understood them correctly.)
Why did the church throw the word Protestant out of it's title?
As to sola gracia, if Wikipedia is correct the Roman Catholics agree with it. "In November 1999, the Lutheran World Federation and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity issued the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" that said, "By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works." Wikipedia sola gracia
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
FiF and AffCath don't speak for he Church, and honestly I can hardly think of any "real life" Anglicans that deny the Protestantism of TEC.
You don't have to deny the protestantism to affirm the catholicism. Just as evangelicals will deny that they are 'Catholic' in the Roman sense, though they affirm the Creeds and 'one, holy, catholic, apostolic church.' So anglo-catholics will deny that they are protestant in the Ian Paisley sense, but can hardly deny that they are protestant against certain RC positions.
The problem is I suppose that the word 'protestant' can have negative implications: you're against something rather than positively for it. Perhaps we should reclaim it, like the term 'nonconformist', as a positive sign of rebellion. After all, a famous Anglo-catholic (Stewart Headlam I think) said that the mass was 'a meeting of rebels against a mammon-worshipping society'
But it's a fact that the word is never used in the Book of Common Prayer (any edition).
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
But it's a fact that the word is never used in the Book of Common Prayer (any edition).
That doesn't seem to be true on this side of the Atlantic. Here is the preface to the first American edition.
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ostiarius
Shipmate
# 13726
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Posted
Even still in the 1928 edition
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Open a new window, open a new door...
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Why did the church throw the word Protestant out of its title?
Apparently it never did, if the Wikipedia entry is to be believed. (Can't link to it; the address contains characters not legal in the Ship's HTML code.)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
I seem to remember a big deal being made over the change, first to The Episcopal Church in the United States of America, and then to just The Episcopal Church.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I said my bit. In courtesy to jordan, can we get back to answering his question? (I, of course, am in no position to do so.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
FiF and AffCath don't speak for he Church, and honestly I can hardly think of any "real life" Anglicans that deny the Protestantism of TEC.
I can't think of any organizations, but the low-church seminary is VTS.
How about all the diocese in the entire Southeastern United States?
North Carolina has a number of Anglo-Catholic parishes, and of course Charleston South Carolina has one quite well known A-C joint.
As to the question of an organisation for protestant-minded Episcopalians, unlike the CofE, TEC isn't really about such strong party affiliations. The majority churchmanship is more homogeneous, especially since the cultural assimilation of the 1979 BCP.
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
FiF and AffCath don't speak for he Church, and honestly I can hardly think of any "real life" Anglicans that deny the Protestantism of TEC.
I can't think of any organizations, but the low-church seminary is VTS.
How about all the diocese in the entire Southeastern United States?
Both of the Florida dioceses I'm familiar with (SW Florida and Central Florida) tend to send their seminarians to Sewanee.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Personally, I consider Anglicanism to be Catholic, but reformed.
Thats wot that Fulcrum website said.
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a theological scrapbook
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Personally, I consider Anglicanism to be Catholic, but reformed.
Thats wot that Fulcrum website said.
It's just a longer-winded way of saying "Protestant"
P = C+R
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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BalddudePeekskill
Shipmate
# 12152
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Posted
Personally, I prefer the word reformed, rather than protestant. I think that better fits the theology of the current Episcopal Church. I'd rather be defined as what I believe in, rather than what I'm opposing.
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Christos Aneste
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
You can protest for something (e.g. your innocence) - it's by no means restricted to protesting against stuff.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
As to the question of an organisation for protestant-minded Episcopalians, unlike the CofE, TEC isn't really about such strong party affiliations. The majority churchmanship is more homogeneous, especially since the cultural assimilation of the 1979 BCP.
Except for the "snake-belly low and proud of it" parishes in Virginia, I think the US church has probably been more homogeneous than the CofE since the REC split off in the 19th Century.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I said my bit. In courtesy to jordan, can we get back to answering his question? (I, of course, am in no position to do so.)
In asking why "Protestant" was dropped from the name - or as I was corrected, dropped from use - I'm asking what changed, in what way was the USA church Protestant and no longer is? That would help identify which local churches are still Protestant.
I grew up so low church any Episcopal churches I walk into these days seem Catholic! Fancy robes, chanting some of the prayers, more formalities than in the Catholic churches I visit!
But I suppose style is not the whole issue in what is Anglo-Catholic, what is Anglo-Protestant, and what are Anglo-just-anglos?
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Angloid, I believe it is spelt out in the former Irish book's preface or somwhere in the material only Eccles people read.
[ 30. April 2012, 15:03: Message edited by: Mama Thomas ]
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
As to the question of an organisation for protestant-minded Episcopalians, unlike the CofE, TEC isn't really about such strong party affiliations. The majority churchmanship is more homogeneous, especially since the cultural assimilation of the 1979 BCP.
Also, I can't see a need for such an organization. What purpose would it serve?
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
and of course Charleston South Carolina has one quite well known A-C joint.
Are they still in TEC, I heard they were going with the Ordinariate?
I know plenty of people in my AC shack that shudder at being called just plain "catholics" as that implies Rome, while I'm happy to be called "protestant" as that implies not Rome.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BalddudeCrompond:
Personally, I prefer the word reformed, rather than protestant. I think that better fits the theology of the current Episcopal Church. I'd rather be defined as what I believe in, rather than what I'm opposing.
I've read that when the Episcopal dioceses in the secessionist Confederate States of America were organising themselves into a national church, the name "Reformed Catholic Church in the Confederate States of America" was proposed, although they ended up going with "Protestant Episcopal Church in the Confederate States of America". It's interesting to think that tractarianism had sufficiently penetrated the American South by 1861 for such a proposal to be made.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
As to the question of an organisation for protestant-minded Episcopalians, unlike the CofE, TEC isn't really about such strong party affiliations. The majority churchmanship is more homogeneous, especially since the cultural assimilation of the 1979 BCP.
Also, I can't see a need for such an organization. What purpose would it serve?
I don't think it would serve any purpose in non-established TEC. By contrast, the CofE has these various groups fighting either for hegemony or at least to preserve territory. As pointed out, TEC got rid of all the extreme protestants when the arch-Calvinists and no-popery people stomped out in the 1870s along with the suffragan bishop of Kentucky, creating the Reformed Episcopal Church. However, I think what you do have in TEC are various devotional and charitable societies that represent different spectra of churchmanship: CBS and Guild of All Souls for the catholic-minded; DOK and Brotherhood of St Andrew for the more MOTR-Prot parishes. You also have the Society of Catholic Priests for the catholic-minded clergy, though I'm unaware of any analogous fellowship for low church/evangelical type clergy.
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
There's the Church Army for both clergy and laity.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
As to the question of an organisation for protestant-minded Episcopalians, unlike the CofE, TEC isn't really about such strong party affiliations. The majority churchmanship is more homogeneous, especially since the cultural assimilation of the 1979 BCP.
Also, I can't see a need for such an organization. What purpose would it serve?
I haven't come across any especially low Episcopal Churches, and I imagine that for the most part their liturgical choices are not controversial. I'm unaware of any recent liturgical/theological changes in the Book of Common Prayer which alienate the low-churchers.
Maybe if the BCP 20XX ed. mandates smells and bells in the liturgy or contemplates a lot of stuff involving the Virgin Mary.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
An especially low Episcopal parish that is now part of the +Jack Iker (Fort Worth) schism is St Andrew's Fort Worth. It's a complete anomaly in what was always an Anglo-Catholic diocese, where Morning Prayer is otherwise almost unknown as a Sunday service. St Andrew's has always been a surplice and stole, early HC, late MP alternating with HC kind of a place. They refused to adopt the '79 and have continued to use '28 AFAIK. Also, the rector and other clergy were known as "Mr..." rather than Father so and so. When I was familiar with the place, the rector celebrated HC with almost no manual gestures at all, didn't do the lavabo, and held his palms up in Aaronic style blessing for the blessing at the end of mass (not that they would have EVER called it that)rather than making the sign of the cross. His style of ceremonial could only be described as casual.
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
St. John's Episcopal in Ft. Worth was also quite low, if not as low as St. Andrew's (I was a paid Bass in the choir there more years ago than I care to count).
At the time, they used both the 1928 and the 1979, depending on the service. They were Rite I, and often appended HC to MP (or MP to HC, if you prefer). It's not clear from their website quite what they do now, but I note they also followed Iker. I suspect that's because the clergy did--I'm trying to remember the name of the priest who was there in the late 80s and I can't imagine him leaving with +Iker, but he was not far from retirement 25 years ago.
If the congregation is anything like it was when I was there, a large proportion of them will stick with the building. The attitude then was "Rectors come and go, but this is our church".
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Does the Church Army exist in TEC? I'm only aware of it in the CofE.
The link Mama Thomas provided is for churcharmyusa.org. From their list of missions, their activity appears to be centered in Missouri.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
St. John's Episcopal in Ft. Worth was also quite low, if not as low as St. Andrew's (I was a paid Bass in the choir there more years ago than I care to count).
At the time, they used both the 1928 and the 1979, depending on the service. They were Rite I, and often appended HC to MP (or MP to HC, if you prefer). It's not clear from their website quite what they do now, but I note they also followed Iker. I suspect that's because the clergy did--I'm trying to remember the name of the priest who was there in the late 80s and I can't imagine him leaving with +Iker, but he was not far from retirement 25 years ago.
If the congregation is anything like it was when I was there, a large proportion of them will stick with the building. The attitude then was "Rectors come and go, but this is our church".
Yeah, St John's was the other low-ish place, but the one time I ever attended a Eucharist there, the celebrant did wear eucharistic vestments (a very fine chasuble, actually) and it was more dignified than St Andrew's. Fr (note: it was Fr and not Mr) Leatherbury was the rector there in the early 1980s and I think he had quite a reputation as a difficult man whom the prudent wouldn't cross. I'm sure he's no longer in the Church Militant here in earth, but has moved on to a clearer light.
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
I have always liked the phrase used in some Anglican/Lutheran agreements, referring to these two bodies as "the two catholic churches of the Reformation."
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
A Lutheran pastor I knew many years ago used to refer to Lutherans as "Lutheran Catholics". That was in Texas, where Lutherans also tend to be relatively high churchy.
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
The Lutheran equivalent to "Anglo-Catholic" is usually "Evangelical-Catholic."
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Yes, I'm aware of that, e.g. St Peter's Lutheran in Manhattan use that self-description. As my acquaintance with this particular pastor was during the early 1980s I think it's possible that the Evangelical Catholic designation wasn't as common at that time, at least outside of more scholarly Lutheran circles.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I do not know whether it is still on the go, but there used to be a group called the Evangelical Episcopalian Fellowship (EEF). They published something called the 'Prayer Book Manual' in 1943 for the 1928 BCP and revised it in 1982 for use with the 1979 BCP. They were mainly what I would call 'liberal Evangelicals' in that they were not Biblical literalists, and were lukewarm at best about PSA, but they were definitely on the Protestant wing of Episcopalianism.
PD
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My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
I'm on lunch break, no time for a long post. In my limited experiance as an Episcopalian, I would say that nowadays Protestant or Evangelical theology manifests itself in preaching and pastoral care, but not in liturgy. The one Evangelical Episcopal priest I know personally wears the chasuble and uses incense, but prefers a quiet conversation over lunch to the Sacrement of Reconciliation.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
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poileplume
Shipmate
# 16438
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Posted
If it is of use, in French Canada Anglican is distinguished from Protestant. The term protestant is used either for 1) for non conformists and evangelicals or 2) amongst the older generation for English speakers!
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Please note I am quite severely dyslexic
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I hate to tell you people this, but you aren't real. You're the internet!
This here site is about the only place I know of that gets all heated up about Anglicans being Protestants.
Same. I had no idea I might not be Protestant until I arrived on the Ship. I'd always thought I was mildly Protestant, yes, but still in that category.
It was very interesting watching the TV series The Tudors over the last year and a bit, knowing what the Ship has taught me. Yes, yes, I know it's not all tremendously accurate history or anything. But a lot of it is close to history. And is what quite interesting watching the mindset and the battles. It seems as if Henry VIII himself was quite keen on the notion that he was asserting his own supremacy but otherwise keeping the church doctrinally on the same path it was already on.
Mind you, his children did tend to veer off in either direction. Not sure exactly where Elizabeth I ended up after her siblings had alternated between strong Protestant and strong Catholic, ie I know she was closer to the middle but not sure if it was quite the same as her father.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Cruet
Shipmate
# 14586
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Posted
Surprisingly, the South is not solid low church.
The old South Florida diocese was mildly AC, as was Georgia, Western North Carolina, and Louisiana. At one time, there were a number of
Nashota House priests.
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snake belly land
Posts: 92 | From: Houston, Tx | Registered: Feb 2009
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