Ship of Fools: Clergy Spouses

Thread: Clergy Spouses Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Achromat (# 17098) on :

Hello, I'm new here and have a couple of questions for you wise people

A bit of background first, I'm married to an ordinand, and putting together some thoughts for an ordinands' spouses retreat, I've been looking at some blogs and books written by spouses which have raised a few questions

So

Do congregations still have any expectations of clergy spouses? (should they attend regularly/make the tea/know everything or back off - 'it's the vicars job not yours') are any expectations different for men? Does it matter if they are not Christian, or are of a different denomination?

And for any spouses out there - what is the best thing about being a clergy spouse, what's the worst? And what has surprised you most?

Thanks in advance, I'm sure you'll come up with some interesting replies...

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Be yourself. Don't be what they want. Expect to be gossiped about and understand it's not you, they dont know you. Have fun and make the most of the many good aspects. Ignore the rest.

And give you clergy spouse lots of sex. (in case my wife is reading this)

AtB Pyx_e.

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

Never have the key that opens any bulding, room, or anything at all, except your home.
Never, ever allow meetings to be held in your home, even if it is the manse.
Tell them you don't bake pies. Ever.

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

Avoid church politics, at every level.

Be aware that you and your minister partner not only have to do the right thing always, you have to be seen to do the right thing always.

The tricky thing is when different members of the church have different ideas of what the right thing looks like. Keeping your mouth firmly shut often helps.

Get a good support network outside the current ministry situation.

Do not define yourself by being a ministers handbag.

[patdys- probable future handbag]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Connected with our parish, we've had the full range - from spouses who are also priests right through to those with jobs of their own in other spheres and very strong attitudes about not being a parish dogsbody. So I don't think we have any particular expectations - just see who turns up and what they wish to offer.

It works both ways, though - churchgoers and their spouses often also have full-time jobs and strong attitudes about how much they're prepared to get involved in the church too. Whereas others, I'm quite sure live, eat, breathe and sleep in the place.

We're all different, regardless of whether we are clergy or lay partners.

Posted by rhflan (# 17092) on :

I think that it really depends...on probably the location of the church (urban vs. rural)...the demographics of the church (little old ladies vs. 20-somethings)....and probably the denomination as well. I grew up in a 'little old ladies' church. It was a United Methodist Church, so we generally got a new pastor every 3-5 years. The pastor was in charge of two different churches...ours had the earlier service. Well, once we got a pastor whose wife would attend the service at the other church (the later service), but not always ours. You would have thought that she was denying the divinity of Christ. Those little old ladies couldn't believe it! They were also surprised that this same pastor's wife had a job outside the home.

I think that it's probably 'nice' if the minister's partner has the same basic beliefs and attends services, but mostly because I like the idea of unity and community. I certainly wouldn't leave a congregation b/c of anything to do with the minister's partner.

Posted by Achromat (# 17098) on :

Thank you all.

I think there are fewer expectations than there used to be particularly in the Cof E, but I 've been amazed at how many spouses writing about their experiences have felt that they (and their children) should be perfectly behaved because that is what is expected. I had thought that perhaps said spouses were imagining these congregational expectations....

I then read a post somewhere where the blogger was astounded that someone was going for ordination when their (husband) had no faith (something along the lines that if you can't persuade him then how will you convert others). I do share my husbands faith but am wondering how some of my friends will be received once they are in parish because they are agnostic (and have children who are somewhat embarrassed about their fathers change in occupation!)

Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on :

I'm married to rhflan, and if she becomes involved in ministry, I won't be in the same boat as her religiously. So I'm pretty sure people in the congregation will need to deal, because I don't want to pretend.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Disclaimer: I've never been clergy spouse nor clergy.

I think lots of people have expectations of clergy spouse. Lots of people have expectations of lots of people.

As in any aspect of life, if you try to run your life for the purpose of fulfilling others' expectations, you will end up unhappy in an artificial life and not really pleasing anyone anyway.

Get involved, some will complain they hired the clergy person, not you, you are overstepping. Don't get involved, some will complain you aren't fulfilling your role. Ignore both. Be real.

One friend who is TEC clergy, his wife attends Assemblies of God.

Another friend who is TEC clergy, her husband is also ordained TEC, he decided he has lost his faith, he does not attend any church, he does not attend any faith-related church events. He does attend picnics and other purely social events if he chooses.

Be real. Be you. Ignore expectations.

Posted by Achromat (# 17098) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:
I'm married to rhflan, and if she becomes involved in ministry, I won't be in the same boat as her religiously. So I'm pretty sure people in the congregation will need to deal, because I don't want to pretend.

I think you are right Popart, and people should have to deal with it, pretence would be awful for everyone.....but will rhfian get the flack?

I suppose my question is more, I think I know what I am getting myself into, but there are a couple of families who seem to have NO idea how church can impinge on family life even if you don't mean it too...so can we begin to provide a support network now before we all leave the collegiate nest or do we wait until the proverbial hits the fan and then step in?

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

I think it may depend on the congregation. I know one female clergy person, whose full time working husband took care of the childcare issues, as They had pre-school children

He baby sat most nights while she was at church meetings etc. Put the kids to bed did the baths and stories etc. She was told that the congregation 'were very disapointed' at her husbands lack of involvment in church life.

They completely failed to see that she was only free to minister to them, because he ministered to the family.

Posted by Achromat (# 17098) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
.
Do not define yourself by being a ministers handbag.

I like that! I should stick with secretary, PA, house keeper and answer phone? [Smile]

Posted by rhflan (# 17092) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Achromat:

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:
I'm married to rhflan, and if she becomes involved in ministry, I won't be in the same boat as her religiously. So I'm pretty sure people in the congregation will need to deal, because I don't want to pretend.
I think you are right Popart, and people should have to deal with it, pretence would be awful for everyone.....but will rhfian get the flack?

I probably would get flack for it...but would it be any worse than the flack I would get because I'm a lesbian...probably not...so I don't worry too much about it [Big Grin]

lol...I tend to think that if a church is okay with a lesbian minister, they won't mind all that much if her wife isn't a Christian.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Mr Image after a few years decided not to attend the same church where I was clergy. I think it was a great thing for both of us. It kept our private home time free of church business discussions for the most part, which I think made it much more refreshing for our family. I would want to be sure to add, no problem with my churches, nice place, nice people, just good to be off duty once home.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

One of the things that I appreciate most in my wife's approach to being a clergy spouse is that she is NEVER a back door to me. By that, I mean that she has always made it clear that if people have a gripe with me, they must come to me and not go running to her and expect her to pass on the message.

All you have to do is remember this key phrase "if you have a problem with [insert name of spouse here], go and talk to them".

The minute you let someone think that they can use you to get to your spouse, not only will they take every opportunity to do so, but the relationship between you and said spouse will be under strain.

Oh - and even if you don't agree with everything that the spouse does (and you won't), NEVER allow anyone else to know. Keep a united front. You won't know it now, but it will become a vital aspect in retaining sanity.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Make sure the two of YOU harbor the same expectations of the spouse. If that's okay, you can cope with everybody else.

Pick out your own area of involvement according to your own gifts and interests and stick to it. A spouse is like any other Christian, and not to be dragooned into doing things not gifted for.

Learn to say No.

Advanced course: if you incline that way, learn to mess with people's heads. If someone gets passive-aggressive with you about the need for someone (meaningful look at you) to vacuum the parish hall, pump their hand enthusiastically and thank them for volunteering. or (more subtly) say, "Oh, I do think so. Oh, I'm certain you're right. But wherever will we find such a person? Oh dear, oh dear..." and so on, and so on, and so on.

Cultivate absentmindedness. "Oh dear, I'm afraid I'll never remember your message. You'll have to speak to X/call the church office/leave a note in the mailbox."

Keep in mind that for certain groups of people, the pastor and family are not "real"--they are plastic celebrities, who can be gossipped about without ever getting hurt feelings or suffering any ill consequences. This is especially true if the parishioner perceives a great gap between you and them--whether that's a language/cultural gap, a class gap, an education gap, or simply the result of being in a very large congregation. Remembering this may comfort you when some of the more outrageous stories get back to you, and you wonder how X could have possibly meant to hurt you so much. X may have been doing nothing more than passing the time (not that you're any the less hurt, but at least it's a tad easier to forgive when you know there was no real malice involved).

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I think it may depend on the congregation. I know one female clergy person, whose full time working husband took care of the childcare issues, as They had pre-school children

He baby sat most nights while she was at church meetings etc. Put the kids to bed did the baths and stories etc. She was told that the congregation 'were very disapointed' at her husbands lack of involvment in church life.

They completely failed to see that she was only free to minister to them, because he ministered to the family.

Wow. That was totally opposite of my husband's experience as clergy spouse. In our case, it seemed like the role of "clergy husband" was so new to them that he pretty much had a blank slate. He pretty much did those things you described above, but when he did, the congregants responded as if he were a fish riding a bicycle: "he takes care of the kids AND read the Scripture last Sunday in church! Amazing!"

otoh, the response you describe is precisely what the clergy wives had historically rec'd for decades.

Overall, I would say the role of clergy wife is so incredibly fraught w/ unwritten & unrealistic expectations you can't possibly meet them all. And perhaps clergy husbands are becoming more the norm now so they're getting in on the abuse too.

Really the only option is the advice given above: know yourself, set clear boundaries w/o apologies, and know that there will be people who will be unhappy no matter what.

I would say that if you can love the congregation-- really love them, just as they are, with all their complaints and neediness and pettiness-- it will go a very long way in contributing to your spouse's ministry and to your partnership.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I suppose there's a downside to all of this, though.

If you expect your private life to be entirely separate from your church life, then you can't expect your congregation to be any different when it comes to their own private lives. Church inevitably becomes more compartmentalised, separate from 'real' life.

But I suppose that's just how church life is, now; rather disconnected from the rest of our lives.

Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Oh - and even if you don't agree with everything that the spouse does (and you won't), NEVER allow anyone else to know. Keep a united front. You won't know it now, but it will become a vital aspect in retaining sanity.

Wait, for real? Of course we don't agree on everything, but pretending we do would be disingenuous (is that the right word?) and I think that even if one person is in the clergy, the congregation would benefit from seeing how you resolve differences. The differences in our relationship make it interesting, and I would go insane (rhflan might as well) trying to be exactly the same in everything. Or were you just being sarcastic?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Oh - and even if you don't agree with everything that the spouse does (and you won't), NEVER allow anyone else to know. Keep a united front. You won't know it now, but it will become a vital aspect in retaining sanity.
Wait, for real? Of course we don't agree on everything, but pretending we do would be disingenuous (is that the right word?) and I think that even if one person is in the clergy, the congregation would benefit from seeing how you resolve differences. The differences in our relationship make it interesting, and I would go insane (rhflan might as well) trying to be exactly the same in everything. Or were you just being sarcastic?

I think Oscar meant disagreements re: the spouse's decisions re: church business. You don't have to feign enthusiasm for spouse's ideas, but you should refrain from expressing your criticism in public. You can admit you have differences, and let people know you talk them out, without detailing what they are and why.

This isn't just important for political reasons-- so your spouse can accomplish his/her goals. It's more important for your hearts-- that you have a sense of partnership in this, a sense that you have each others' back. And it's important in terms of setting boundaries. As was noted upthread, once you set the precedent that someone can come to you for a sympathetic ear for their complaints and criticisms or veiled "suggestions", your life becomes a living hell. You need to draw that boundary early and often. Modeling good direct communication is difficult-- but vital.

I would add again the importance of guarding your heart. Being able to love people-- all of them-- is essential to your emotional and spiritual wellbeing in a difficult calling. It's even more essential to your kids, if you have them, that they see this place as "family". So do what it takes to love them-- which will be harder to do if they start carving you up and getting you take sides.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Get yourself ordained and then claim to be doing supply every Sunday. [Biased]

Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Oh - and even if you don't agree with everything that the spouse does (and you won't), NEVER allow anyone else to know. Keep a united front. You won't know it now, but it will become a vital aspect in retaining sanity.
Wait, for real? Of course we don't agree on everything, but pretending we do would be disingenuous (is that the right word?) and I think that even if one person is in the clergy, the congregation would benefit from seeing how you resolve differences. The differences in our relationship make it interesting, and I would go insane (rhflan might as well) trying to be exactly the same in everything. Or were you just being sarcastic?
I think Oscar meant disagreements re: the spouse's decisions re: church business. You don't have to feign enthusiasm for spouse's ideas, but you should refrain from expressing your criticism in public. You can admit you have differences, and let people know you talk them out, without detailing what they are and why.

This isn't just important for political reasons-- so your spouse can accomplish his/her goals. It's more important for your hearts-- that you have a sense of partnership in this, a sense that you have each others' back. And it's important in terms of setting boundaries. As was noted upthread, once you set the precedent that someone can come to you for a sympathetic ear for their complaints and criticisms or veiled "suggestions", your life becomes a living hell. You need to draw that boundary early and often. Modeling good direct communication is difficult-- but vital.

I would add again the importance of guarding your heart. Being able to love people-- all of them-- is essential to your emotional and spiritual wellbeing in a difficult calling. It's even more essential to your kids, if you have them, that they see this place as "family". So do what it takes to love them-- which will be harder to do if they start carving you up and getting you take sides.

I have no desire to counsel anyone or have kids (we are never having kids, we've already discussed this). So I'd have no problem *not* becoming everyone's ear. I get what you're saying though, I think. And it's my wife's calling, not mine (especially because of the religion difference), so it's even less likely I'll have to guard my heart at all. I don't even plan on spending a lot of time in the church wherever she works (if that's even the plan in a few years). So I guess we're looking at things from 2 entirely different premises, I think that's why I'm really not understanding properly. I sound harsh, and I guess I am abrasive sometimes. We call me a prickly pear. But I'm so not a people person, nor am I good at dealing with young children. So it's just as well I won't be involved in the church, since those two things are pretty important! [Smile]

Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on :

Also, I'm sorry I quoted that big long thing, I'm not good at forums and how to just quote a small section.

Posted by rhflan (# 17092) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Oh - and even if you don't agree with everything that the spouse does (and you won't), NEVER allow anyone else to know. Keep a united front. You won't know it now, but it will become a vital aspect in retaining sanity.
Wait, for real? Of course we don't agree on everything, but pretending we do would be disingenuous (is that the right word?) and I think that even if one person is in the clergy, the congregation would benefit from seeing how you resolve differences. The differences in our relationship make it interesting, and I would go insane (rhflan might as well) trying to be exactly the same in everything. Or were you just being sarcastic?
I think Oscar meant disagreements re: the spouse's decisions re: church business. You don't have to feign enthusiasm for spouse's ideas, but you should refrain from expressing your criticism in public. You can admit you have differences, and let people know you talk them out, without detailing what they are and why.

This isn't just important for political reasons-- so your spouse can accomplish his/her goals. It's more important for your hearts-- that you have a sense of partnership in this, a sense that you have each others' back. And it's important in terms of setting boundaries. As was noted upthread, once you set the precedent that someone can come to you for a sympathetic ear for their complaints and criticisms or veiled "suggestions", your life becomes a living hell. You need to draw that boundary early and often. Modeling good direct communication is difficult-- but vital.

I would add again the importance of guarding your heart. Being able to love people-- all of them-- is essential to your emotional and spiritual wellbeing in a difficult calling. It's even more essential to your kids, if you have them, that they see this place as "family". So do what it takes to love them-- which will be harder to do if they start carving you up and getting you take sides.
I have no desire to counsel anyone or have kids (we are never having kids, we've already discussed this). So I'd have no problem *not* becoming everyone's ear. I get what you're saying though, I think. And it's my wife's calling, not mine (especially because of the religion difference), so it's even less likely I'll have to guard my heart at all. I don't even plan on spending a lot of time in the church wherever she works (if that's even the plan in a few years). So I guess we're looking at things from 2 entirely different premises, I think that's why I'm really not understanding properly. I sound harsh, and I guess I am abrasive sometimes. We call me a prickly pear. But I'm so not a people person, nor am I good at dealing with young children. So it's just as well I won't be involved in the church, since those two things are pretty important!

I think that my wife would do an excellent job with our ministry to street cats [Big Grin]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:
have no desire to counsel anyone or have kids (we are never having kids, we've already discussed this). So I'd have no problem *not* becoming everyone's ear. I get what you're saying though, I think. And it's my wife's calling, not mine (especially because of the religion difference), so it's even less likely I'll have to guard my heart at all. I don't even plan on spending a lot of time in the church wherever she works (if that's even the plan in a few years). So I guess we're looking at things from 2 entirely different premises, I think that's why I'm really not understanding properly. I sound harsh, and I guess I am abrasive sometimes. We call me a prickly pear. But I'm so not a people person, nor am I good at dealing with young children. So it's just as well I won't be involved in the church, since those two things are pretty important!

Hopefully her church will be more like mine, where "clergy husband" is enough of a novelty that just the fact that you walk upright is remarkable enough to get you past most of the unrealistic expectations. If not, then you're in the same boat as clergy wives have been for centuries-- you won't be able to meet all their unspoken expectations, so don't even try. Just focus on loving and supporting your wife, and loving the people she's called to serve (that's the hard part).

Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on :

quote:
I think that my wife would do an excellent job with our ministry to street cats [/QB]

I would totally do that. You know it. Meow.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
Never have the key that opens any bulding, room, or anything at all, except your home.
Never, ever allow meetings to be held in your home, even if it is the manse.
Tell them you don't bake pies. Ever.

This.

And you will be gossiped about, whatever you choose to do. So choose to do what is best for yourself and your family and tell your spouse that gossip is a sin.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

My Mum was a clergy spouse - she made sure she had no keys, very sensible. We were always the worst behaved kids in Church (of course) - she was never fazed [Smile]

Our last minister's husband was not a Christian. Our present minister is single and our next minister's husband is not Christian either. This hasn't been a problem at all.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Originally posted by Poptart22:

quote:
And it's my wife's calling, not mine

This. I made it very clear right at the beginning of Macarius' ministry - well, actually before, during his student days - that we were not a team ministry. I would be as involved in church as any other member. I supported his calling and ministry but it is not mine.

I have no idea whether anyone had expectations of me or not, why should other people's expectations worry me in the slightest?

Oh and I ran a mile from all the support group type stuff offered too. Not me.

M.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
One of the things that I appreciate most in my wife's approach to being a clergy spouse is that she is NEVER a back door to me. By that, I mean that she has always made it clear that if people have a gripe with me, they must come to me and not go running to her and expect her to pass on the message.

From experience, that can also happen if your spouse is churchwarden, treasurer, secretary, choir master, or any other major position in the church. One vicar's wife I know got very good at saying, firmly:'The vicar is Mr. X, I'm Mrs. X. You will need to speak to Mr. X.' And then putting the phone down.

There is, however, a vicar's wife in a nearby parish who is very musical - she uses her gifts to run the church choir, which means she has a much more visible role, but something to which she can positively contribute. I should think there would be nothing worse than feeling you had to run eg. a bible study, flower arrangers guild, Mother's Union, Sunday School, if your gifts didn't lie in that area at all, just because of who your husband is.

When I got married, one of the first things I said was, 'I don't do home entertaining of work colleagues' - fortunately Mr. C's business was happy to pay expenses to eat out somewhere else. However, some close relatives - a clergy family - love to entertain at home and are always phoning to say they had 30 church dignitaries to lunch or whatever. There seems to be a greater acknowledgement these days that everyone is different and will approach their work-life balance differently, whoever they are.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

There's a helpful book called The Minister's Wife. Note that unless you're coming from a certain conservative evangelical place (we're not quite), you'll probably disagree with things in it. But you'd probably also find a lot of it helpful - it's a compilation of essays by ministers' wives on different aspects of being a minister's wife.

My tip - define expectations clearly and up front. Ask at interviews.

And contrary to what's above, do be willing to use the house for events, but have them clearly defined and carefully limited. It's a powerful way of communicating that the event is valuable.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Oh - and even if you don't agree with everything that the spouse does (and you won't), NEVER allow anyone else to know. Keep a united front. You won't know it now, but it will become a vital aspect in retaining sanity.
Wait, for real? Of course we don't agree on everything, but pretending we do would be disingenuous (is that the right word?) and I think that even if one person is in the clergy, the congregation would benefit from seeing how you resolve differences. The differences in our relationship make it interesting, and I would go insane (rhflan might as well) trying to be exactly the same in everything. Or were you just being sarcastic?

I'm for real.

Of course, I am not saying that you pretend to be something other than you are. Nor am I saying that you can never disagree with clergy spouse. But when you do disagree with clergy spouse, you don't go there in public. Not even with so-called "trusted friends". There are ways of doing this without being dishonest. You simply avoid discussing the matter in question with others. Or if it comes up, you keep shtum or be non-committal and vague.

But what you DON'T do (IMHO) is let other church members know that you think clergy spouse is wrong in the matter. Because experience shows that when that happens, some church members will cynically and ruthlessly use this knowledge to put pressure on you and the clergy spouse, in order to "win" their argument. And the potential this has to cause damage to relationships is enormous.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Originally posted by Poptart22:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Oh - and even if you don't agree with everything that the spouse does (and you won't), NEVER allow anyone else to know. Keep a united front. You won't know it now, but it will become a vital aspect in retaining sanity.
Wait, for real? Of course we don't agree on everything, but pretending we do would be disingenuous (is that the right word?) and I think that even if one person is in the clergy, the congregation would benefit from seeing how you resolve differences. The differences in our relationship make it interesting, and I would go insane (rhflan might as well) trying to be exactly the same in everything. Or were you just being sarcastic?
I'm for real.

Of course, I am not saying that you pretend to be something other than you are. Nor am I saying that you can never disagree with clergy spouse. But when you do disagree with clergy spouse, you don't go there in public. Not even with so-called "trusted friends". There are ways of doing this without being dishonest. You simply avoid discussing the matter in question with others. Or if it comes up, you keep shtum or be non-committal and vague.

But what you DON'T do (IMHO) is let other church members know that you think clergy spouse is wrong in the matter. Because experience shows that when that happens, some church members will cynically and ruthlessly use this knowledge to put pressure on you and the clergy spouse, in order to "win" their argument. And the potential this has to cause damage to relationships is enormous.

Absolutely agreed. Both minister and spouse should make sure they have confidential friends outside the parish context whom they can vent to if needed and appropriate.

Modelling how to handle disagreements over who takes the kids to school - fine. Public disagreements over theology or the leadership of the church - definitely not fine. Ditto with curates and vicars, actually.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I think it may depend on the congregation. I know one female clergy person, whose full time working husband took care of the childcare issues, as They had pre-school children

He baby sat most nights while she was at church meetings etc. Put the kids to bed did the baths and stories etc. She was told that the congregation 'were very disapointed' at her husbands lack of involvment in church life.

They completely failed to see that she was only free to minister to them, because he ministered to the family.
Wow. That was totally opposite of my husband's experience as clergy spouse. In our case, it seemed like the role of "clergy husband" was so new to them that he pretty much had a blank slate. He pretty much did those things you described above, but when he did, the congregants responded as if he were a fish riding a bicycle: "he takes care of the kids AND read the Scripture last Sunday in church! Amazing!"

otoh, the response you describe is precisely what the clergy wives had historically rec'd for decades.

Overall, I would say the role of clergy wife is so incredibly fraught w/ unwritten & unrealistic expectations you can't possibly meet them all. And perhaps clergy husbands are becoming more the norm now so they're getting in on the abuse too.

Really the only option is the advice given above: know yourself, set clear boundaries w/o apologies, and know that there will be people who will be unhappy no matter what.

I would say that if you can love the congregation-- really love them, just as they are, with all their complaints and neediness and pettiness-- it will go a very long way in contributing to your spouse's ministry and to your partnership.

On the other hand - I knew an older couple whose kids had fled the nest. Again a female clergy person but their congregation sent home made food and cakes etc home for the 'poor' husnand. Whose wife was always out at evening meetings and therefore must be neglecting his food. [Big Grin]

Posted by Achromat (# 17098) on :

Thanks everyone, there's some really interesting replies to mull over with the group, it will give us all a chance to work out in advance how we want to approach our Spouses new role.

You've given lots of advice and things to avoid/watch out for, so now what's the BEST BIT?
The house...the pay...the food...lunch with the bishop...the people...the long black dress...the collar?
Go on, there must be something brilliant about being married to the minister [Smile]

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Achromat:

Go on, there must be something brilliant about being married to the minister

Well. Hopefully it's cos you luv em.

And being married to someone you love is brilliant.

Regardless of what they do.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

As for the pay?

[Killing me]

My spouse will be a minister's wallet if I'm ever ordained.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Get yourself ordained and then claim to be doing supply every Sunday.

I know someone who actually does that often.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
And give you clergy spouse lots of sex. (in case my wife is reading this)

AtB Pyx_e.

Maybe you could ask her. Or help with the washing up more often.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As for the pay?

My spouse will be a minister's wallet if I'm ever ordained.

Mrs. Mother Beeswax Altar and I slap ourselves for not marrying somebody in a more lucrative profession or at least in a good trailing profession. Physician is a lucrative trailing profession. Good for you Evensong!

I'm not sure what Mr. Evensong gets out of the arrangement. [Razz]

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

35-odd years ago a friend was invited to a Methodist ministers' wives group.
It was the first meeting of what was going to be a "support group". (Which if you do the maths that was about the time that sort of thing was starting to happen in that neck of the woods)
Question #1 was "What is the best thing about being a minister's wife?". To which she replied "He works from home so we have more and more varied sexual opportunities especially
when the children are at school"
Needless to say there was stunned silence and much buttoning of cardigans, smoothing of skirts and fiddling with handbags (purses).

[ 04. May 2012, 14:23: Message edited by: Galilit ]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:

My tip - define expectations clearly and up front. Ask at interviews.

Definitely a good idea, BUT... don't think that just because you said, "I don't teach Sunday School" or "this is my wife's calling, not mine" at an interview* that the issue will never be raised again.

First of all, an interview will be conducted by a handful of congregants. Yes, they're supposed to "represent" the congregation, but they simply can't represent everyone. And the reality is, they were chosen not because they're representative, but because they're the best. Because they represent the congregation well and give a good impression.

Secondly, an interview is like a first date. Everyone's on their best behavior, and never entirely honest. You're not going to tell them all your weaknesses (even when asked the ridiculous but ubiquitous "what are your weaknesses?" question that no one answers honestly) and neither are they.

*notice the implicit assumption here that you will be at the interview. That is probably you're strongest clue as to what the church is like. If you are expected to be part of the interview (as is often the case), then on some unspoken level, they have some sort of "job description" in mind for you and you'd best find out what it is. If you aren't asked to interview, you are less likely to have to deal with that.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
[QUOTE]On the other hand - I knew an older couple whose kids had fled the nest. Again a female clergy person but their congregation sent home made food and cakes etc home for the 'poor' husnand. Whose wife was always out at evening meetings and therefore must be neglecting his food.

Yep, that's what my hubby's experience was like. If you the OP finds himself in that situation, as sexist as it is, I'd say enjoy it while you can. As clergy husbands become more common, no doubt there'll be a host of embedded expectations that get attached to that role and they'll figure out being able to boil water is not an awesome accomplishment even for someone of the male gender. So eat your cake while you can!

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
35-odd years ago a friend was invited to a Methodist ministers' wives group.
It was the first meeting of what was going to be a "support group". (Which if you do the maths that was about the time that sort of thing was starting to happen in that neck of the woods)
Question #1 was "What is the best thing about being a minister's wife?". To which she replied "He works from home so we have more and more varied sexual opportunities especially
when the children are at school"
Needless to say there was stunned silence and much buttoning of cardigans, smoothing of skirts and fiddling with handbags (purses).

As discretely as possible, let me simply affirm the truth this response, before noting that today is my day off and hubby will return shortly from driving the kiddies to school, so em.....

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
And give you clergy spouse lots of sex. (in case my wife is reading this)

AtB Pyx_e.
Maybe you could ask her.

Does begging count?

Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

First of all, an interview will be conducted by a handful of congregants. Yes, they're supposed to "represent" the congregation, but they simply can't represent everyone. And the reality is, they were chosen not because they're representative, but because they're the best. Because they represent the congregation well and give a good impression.

Not necessarily the best, sometimes just the dominant egos

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As for the pay?

My spouse will be a minister's wallet if I'm ever ordained.
Mrs. Mother Beeswax Altar and I slap ourselves for not marrying somebody in a more lucrative profession or at least in a good trailing profession. Physician is a lucrative trailing profession. Good for you Evensong!

I'm not sure what Mr. Evensong gets out of the arrangement.

Why. I would have thought that was obvious.

He gets me. [Two face]

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

*notice the implicit assumption here that you will be at the interview. That is probably you're strongest clue as to what the church is like. If you are expected to be part of the interview (as is often the case), then on some unspoken level, they have some sort of "job description" in mind for you and you'd best find out what it is. If you aren't asked to interview, you are less likely to have to deal with that.

I should have been clearer.

Before the interviews is usually a day of looking round. Spouses should ideally go on that, and can get a feel for the spiritual temperature of the place.

I've never known clergy spouses invited to the interview itself. Clergy should ask about spousal expectations at interview. And if clergy want to get the job as themselves and have freedom to be themselves in the job, they should jolly well be themselves at interview too.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
35-odd years ago a friend was invited to a Methodist ministers' wives group.
It was the first meeting of what was going to be a "support group". (Which if you do the maths that was about the time that sort of thing was starting to happen in that neck of the woods)
Question #1 was "What is the best thing about being a minister's wife?". To which she replied "He works from home so we have more and more varied sexual opportunities especially
when the children are at school"
Needless to say there was stunned silence and much buttoning of cardigans, smoothing of skirts and fiddling with handbags (purses).
As discretely as possible, let me simply affirm the truth this response, before noting that today is my day off and hubby will return shortly from driving the kiddies to school, so em.....

...please excuse shaky typing?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

*notice the implicit assumption here that you will be at the interview. That is probably you're strongest clue as to what the church is like. If you are expected to be part of the interview (as is often the case), then on some unspoken level, they have some sort of "job description" in mind for you and you'd best find out what it is. If you aren't asked to interview, you are less likely to have to deal with that.
I should have been clearer.

Before the interviews is usually a day of looking round. Spouses should ideally go on that, and can get a feel for the spiritual temperature of the place.

I've never known clergy spouses invited to the interview itself. Clergy should ask about spousal expectations at interview. And if clergy want to get the job as themselves and have freedom to be themselves in the job, they should jolly well be themselves at interview too.

All very nice in the ideal, but not the way it works out in reality, I'm afraid. The "looking around day" is, sorry to say, an interview. Oh, it's not billed as that, of course. But it is. And it's primarily an interview of the spouse. Sorry.

Similarly, "being yourself" is a bit of a dance-- again, not unlike a first date. Show too much of the gritty truth and you're unlikely to get any further, especially in today's job market. But if you're presenting a false front, the inauthenticity is going to stink the place up, and, as you suggest, set you up for some unrealistic expectations you can't meet. It's a dance. In any job interview, for any job, you have to set forth the "best true version" of yourself.

Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on :

After thoughtfully reading more responses, I am less worried than before, because I won't be very present in the church, and am not very approachable in the wanting counseling/shoulder sense, so I'll be able to stay out of that role and won't really be present enough to even talk about disagreements.

And this is only *if* my wife decides to do that. She's considering other options as well. Sometimes I get all worked up and scared of a remote possibility. Sigh. Mental illness FTL.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Both minister and spouse should make sure they have confidential friends outside the parish context whom they can vent to if needed and appropriate.

Absolutely!

And the need to vent at clergy spouse's stupidity may sometimes be very strong indeed!

Posted by Poptart22 (# 17096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Both minister and spouse should make sure they have confidential friends outside the parish context whom they can vent to if needed and appropriate.
Absolutely!

And the need to vent at clergy spouse's stupidity may sometimes be very strong indeed!

Why? Are they likely to be stupid more than the person in the clergy?

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

They can both be stupid - bu tmaybe at different times. The point is when you need to vent about your spouse make sure it is a confidential person away from the parish.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Achromat:
Thanks everyone, there's some really interesting replies to mull over with the group, it will give us all a chance to work out in advance how we want to approach our Spouses new role.

You've given lots of advice and things to avoid/watch out for, so now what's the BEST BIT?
The house...the pay...the food...lunch with the bishop...the people...the long black dress...the collar?
Go on, there must be something brilliant about being married to the minister

The Minister. [Biased]

OTH, when we met he was planning to be an accountant ...

Everyone's experience is going to be different as it's shaped as much by your personality and gifts as the church you belong to. There are a few things that seem to be universal though:

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Be clear about what you will and won't do and the divide between church and home.

Pitch in and find jobs to do. Preferably ones that you enjoy and are good at.

Accept you aren't an ordinary member of the church and don't have the same freedom of comment as others. You have to back the leadership in public and you can't get involved with gossip / politics. Otherwise you risk undermining your other half. Not great.

Have friends outside the church you can talk too.

Rev T tells me, as I regularly tell the congregation .. Nothing. This means I won't know if he's done x or y or what's happening with so and so ... So if you want me to know stuff, then you need to tell me directly. I've also told them that I'm not good at remembering to tell him stuff so it's best to speak to him ... And there may be some truth in that.

The other thing Rev T does is not tell me stuff about disagreements he's had with members of the congregation. This means I take them on their own merits - and don't get pissed off with them because they've upset him.

Pray - and find stuff that feeds you spiritually.

Hope this helps. And lastly, have fun!

Tubbs

[ 04. May 2012, 19:04: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

We have a unique situation at our church: Our pastor's wife is a practicing Buddhist. But she gamely attends every Sunday service, and also comes to various church social events as she's able (she's a professor with a long commute to her university). She has also been a supportive presence to many families in crisis, sitting with them in ER rooms and funeral homes and living rooms.

But she doesn't "do" traditional pastor's wife things. And our congregation doesn't expect her to.

My advice, as friend of and volunteer for clergyfolk:

Be present and supportive, but establish a clear boundary between yourself and your spouse/spouse's job. In other words, you are not your spouse's appointment secretary; you are not a substitute Sunday School teacher; you are not a de facto small group leader or nursery minder or other default volunteer-at-large.

Make friends with the older women -- even the ones who don't seem to approve of an independent spouse with a career and life of her own. The friendlier you are to the matriarchs, the easier your life in the parish will be for you. If they feel you're on their side, they will be your biggest supporters.

Acquaint yourselves with the go-to people of your parish, so that when people come to YOU with their issues and questions, you can steer them toward the appropriate people.

Cultivate a friendship with at least one other clergy spouse...AND friendships with people who are completely outside the church system. These people will help keep you grounded and sane.

Hope this helps.

Posted by rhflan (# 17092) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Both minister and spouse should make sure they have confidential friends outside the parish context whom they can vent to if needed and appropriate.
Absolutely!

And the need to vent at clergy spouse's stupidity may sometimes be very strong indeed!

I'm sure that there are *plenty* of times when my wife needs to vent about my stupidity! lol

Posted by Achromat (# 17098) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As discretely as possible, let me simply affirm the truth this response, before noting that today is my day off and hubby will return shortly from driving the kiddies to school, so em..... [/QB]

Hope you had a nice day [Biased]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

The question of shared faith is complex. My first wife was the daughter of a clerj, but rapidly lost her faith when we were in theological college ("we" because we lived in for the first year). From then onwards it was difficult, primarily for her. I hope I'm not maligning her if I say the church community became increasingly a monkey on her back, until she really, genuinely hated its existence. It wasn't the cause of the break-up of the marriage (in self-righteous moments I'd love to kid myself that was true but it simply isn't) but it sure didn't help when my whole life was something she resented.

In Middlemarch there is a scene when (I think) Rosamond and Lydgate are having a Moment™ Rosamond wishes out loud that Lydgate were not a doctor. He is shattered, for that is his whole being, his whole isness. Sometimes ministry, rightly or wrongly is like that.

Mind you, Rosamond is a scheming bitch. My first wife was not and is not.

Second time round we're both clerj. That has issues too, but far less destructive issues.

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