Ship of Fools: (Plymouth) Brethren

Thread: (Plymouth) Brethren Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

What do shipmates know about this bunch?

When I was at grammer school in the 60s and Devon, the noncons I was most aware of went to a place called the "Gospel Hall" (since renamed X Chapel). I have since learnt these were (Plymouth) Brethren.

There was the son of corn importer and the son of a leading solicitor, and a nice gentle man who taught Latin and taught me Religious Knowledge for O level, which was the only one I failed. I didn't notice any evangelical leanings in his teachings - I wouldn't have been aware of evangelical subtleties in theology, but I would have noticed any evangelical smarm or triteness in his manner.

[ 12. May 2012, 12:04: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

I must admit that most of my awareness of Plymouth Brethren has been second hand - through what friends have experienced.

I did know some Plymouth Brethren once - very strict on issues of women's clothing and hair cover. I also had a friend (living in Plymouth!) who befriended a Plymouth Brethren woman. Although my friend was herself a committed Christian, attending a Pentecostal church, the PB woman was told by her elders that either she ceased fraternising with the "unbeliever" or else she would be thrown out of the church.

As I understand it, Plymouth Brethren are more hardline than your average common-or-garden Brethren.

I also had a friend who taught at a Brethren school in Yorkshire. He wasn't Brethren himself, but was permitted to work at the school because he could teach Law - a subject that the curriculum demanded but which no self-respecting Brethren would teach (apparently). The headteacher of the school refused to use any form of technology and so employed someone else to write his emails for him. I still don't get how that works. I can understand taking a stance against modern technology, but not the line that "I think it is of the Devil but it's OK for me to pay YOU to sup with Satan"

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

They are the only Christian denomination we Irish can claim to have founded. Given how busy the English have been founding denominations its nice that we get to claim at least one.

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

I grew up in a family that belonged to the local (Open) Brethren 'Assembly' that met at the Gospel Hall. It was where I was baptised, at the age of 15.

Yes they are evangelical in theology (Arminian), but do things their according too their own traditions, and the stereotypical stance is anti ecumenical (especially anti Catholic), anti clerical, anti charismatic. They meet in plain buildings and do not have paid clergy. Knowledge of the Scriptures is impressive. Only men can participate in the audible worship. Women need to wear head coverings.

They are involved in missionary work both at home and abroad. They are sincere people who love the Lord, and just quietly get on with doing things as they believe they should be done according to their interpretation of Scripture.

My time among these people gave me a secure grounding in the Christian faith, a good Bible knowledge, albeit a rather skewed understanding of some issues, that had to be unlearned, or at least I had to realise that other views were equally possible! (eg their views on eschatology)

Is that the sort of thing you wanted to know?

Posted by OhSimone (# 16414) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
I grew up in a family that belonged to the local (Open) Brethren 'Assembly' that met at the Gospel Hall. It was where I was baptised, at the age of 15.

Yes they are evangelical in theology (Arminian), but do things their according too their own traditions, and the stereotypical stance is anti ecumenical (especially anti Catholic), anti clerical, anti charismatic. They meet in plain buildings and do not have paid clergy. Knowledge of the Scriptures is impressive. Only men can participate in the audible worship. Women need to wear head coverings.

They are involved in missionary work both at home and abroad. They are sincere people who love the Lord, and just quietly get on with doing things as they believe they should be done according to their interpretation of Scripture.

My time among these people gave me a secure grounding in the Christian faith, a good Bible knowledge, albeit a rather skewed understanding of some issues, that had to be unlearned, or at least I had to realise that other views were equally possible! (eg their views on eschatology)

Is that the sort of thing you wanted to know?

I'll be first to put my head above the parapet. The first key addition I'd make to this is that there is a spectrum of Brethrenism, generally falling into either 'open' or 'exclusive', as Gracious Rebel indicated. Plymouth Brethren, as far as I can tell, could refer to any or all of them - the name stems from the first Brethren churches (assemblies) in England, which, as mentioned, were an offshoot from the original movement in Dublin. I gather that across the pond the term is more common to describe any sort of Brethren assembly - over here, it'd usually indicate exclusiveness.

By that, I might mean: refusal to worship with/eat with/receive other Christians from other denominations; strict legalism over attire, places of worship, leadership etc. Open brethren tend to be more embracing in principle, although sometimes an outsider might be hardpressed to tell the difference...

Each assembly is completely congregational and autonomous: there's no heirarchies or Moderators or national councils or anything, hence the spectrum of adherence to traditionally Brethren principles. The only leadership is a small group of elders in each assembly. That means that, for instance, Kaplan Corday's church is a Brethren assembly, but would look and feel quite different to my own church.

In terms of theology, Brethren are usually in the YEC/pre-millenial rapture camp, stemming from a fairly literal approach to Biblical interpretation (one of our own pretty much invented modern dispensationalism, although you won't find quite so much of this as you would in, say, Harold Camping's circles...). I'd stress that point about Brethren being very scripturally-literate though, that's a key point.

This has been my tradition from a youth so I'm happy to answer anything specific, but I'll warn you that I take a fairly critical/undecided view of a lot of Brethren practice (including eschatology, YEC, gender roles), so any views are my own and do not represent yadda yadda yadda.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

My family used to belong to the Raven/Taylor/Hales "exclusive" Brethren. I have been looking into this, and it seems it was very much a top down ecclesiology. Whatever the "Holy man" at the top said was on par with the Bible, be it John Darby, Taylor Sr, Taylor Jr, Hales or whoever.

Nowadays, the gates and doors are locked during services and all the windows of the hall are bricked up. I can't think how you would get to become a member, even if you wanted to.

They have their own schools, businesses and everything else, and anyone who wants to join is interrogated before he even gets a foot in the door. It is equally difficult to leave if you were born into the movement, and if you try you will be ostracised even by your own family. I pity anyone who is thrown out through discipline or disobedience!

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

The word 'Brethren' is attached to THREE different groups.

The first - largely irrelevant in the UK context, but confusing in the US, is the European Hussites. Some emigrated and flourished in the US.

The second is the highly hierarchical in practice 'Exclusive' brethren whose horrors include strict discipline about contact with non-believers, which was justified originally because the UK was a Christian country in name - they were seeking to witness against the complacent assumption that 'everyone was a Christian'. They also do a cute line in arguing that since Satan is 'the prince of the air', everything electronic that passes through the air is under his control; they therefore reject TV and radio, but allowed telephones. We used to have an assembly close to us that has now been replaced by a block of flats. Following a court case that established that places of worship had to make their facilities visible, they had a board outside declaring who they were, carefully constructed to be hidden behind a hedge...

The third group is the 'Open Brethren', which are a WIDE spectrum of churches whose history goes back to the same roots, but have resisted the hierarchical nature of the 'Exclusives'. A striking feature of their services is that they are not led by anyone; instead people are expected to contribute their own material. Note that this is similar to the Quakers - except that they don't value silence as such - and put a far higher emphasis on the bible for teaching! They also explicitly reject the need for a specific person to do the communion prayers; any man present is allowed to initiate the sharing of the elements, certainly without any particular liturgy. As such they separate the role of elder from celebrant, to the despair of our Catholic brethren(!)

Within the spectrum are some who won't let you near the elements unless you dot all the 'i's and cross all the 't's, through to many which are indistinguishable from Evangelical churches of other origins. often introducing structured services and paid leadership. As with any denomination - and this is as loose a denomination as you will get - it has its good and bad points and examples.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

In an attempt to escape confusion with the Exclusives, who are constantly in the media for all the wrong reasons, the Open Brethren assemblies in Australia have recently rebranded themselves as Community Churches of Australia.

My own assembly holds a traditional Brethren Breaking of Bread service early on Sunday morning, which is attended by only 20-30 mainly older people.

The family service later in the morning is indistinguishable from its generic counterparts practised these days across many denominations and many countries (in the Anglosphere, anyway).

I suspect that a majority of our members would know little or nothing about Brethren history or Brethren distinctives.

[ 11. May 2012, 09:17: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

Posted by OhSimone (# 16414) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In an attempt to escape confusion with the Exclusives, who are constantly in the media for all the wrong reasons, the Open Brethren assemblies in Australia have recently rebranded themselves as Community Churches of Australia.

This is interesting (and seems like a pretty good idea to me). Is there any sort of formal union or umbrella organisation, or was it more a collective decision?

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

You may find this Wikipedia page useful. This page is pretty accurate re the Exclusives.

Mrs B's parents are Exclusives. They both grew up in the Raven-Taylor branch but left it in 1970 over the 'Aberdeen incident' involving Big Jim Taylor and his alleged literal interpretation of the 'laying on of hands'. They are now in what I call the 'Raven-Taylor-hard Frost' branch which presently consists of about three and a half people and a dog. They have a computer (which the strict Exclusives - Raven-Taylor-Symington-Hales - are not allowed) but no TV because that's 'worldly', don't go to any other Christian meetings or denominations (we had an interesting wedding where we had a civil marriage in a hotel and then once the registrar left, had a time of open prayer and blessing involving prayers by Mrs B's dad, plus my two uncles who are Catholic priests, but men only).

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

"Spectrum" is a good phrase. The local nonco congo I belong to (and have done for 38 years) was founded by Open Brethren about 75 years ago. So far as I can work out, one of the motives was to enable the sending assembly to export some rebellious young turks with new ideas.

Seems to have had interesting effects. As it stands now, the congo has a paid church leader (ex Salvation Army), two other paid staff, women elders, no restrictions on women's roles, nobody wears hats, a very strong social gospel agenda, led worship (worship band, most songs written after 1990), good relationships with local churches and an excellent reputation with local government for its work in the socially deprived area in which it is based.

When asked for the denomination of my local church, I tend to describe it as "ruined Brethren".

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

Snippets about the NZ 'Exclusives':
A friend some years ago had a daughter who married an Exclusive. For some years she had no idea where her daughter lived, what children she had etc. Then a new Head Honcho came along and the daughter was contacted (I think someone had to track her down though) and friend could visit, staying nearby, be given a cuppa but without Daughter partaking at the same time. At another time we heard that when a new HH came on the stage who likes whisky, it became allowable for the faithful to drink whisky.

In more recent years there hve been a number of Exclusives in our part of the city as the have a huge windowless 'church' and rumour had it that they had to be near a church to be able to assemble there quickly when the final trumpet sounded. So the children went to local schools and posed a problem for teachers who had to prepare alternative work for them if they wanted to use a video in class. They now have their own school. But I have met or have known some very pleasant friendly members – a colleague when I was teaching would stand in the staff workroom door with her coffee(?) and chat to those of us near her in the common room.

The Open Brethren I have known have been quite happy to join with the rest of us, or welcome us to their meeting, and I remember them mainly for the humanitarian work they were involved in.

GG

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

We have a Brethren chapel ('Gospel Hall') round the corner, although I don't know where they sit on the Brethren spectrum, and they do the odd leaflet drop and distribute leaflets in the street sometimes. I'm always struck by their slightly formal courtesy; they are never patronising, never pressurising. I like and respect that.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

I married into a group in Sydney which on the spectrum was more towards the Londoner (Exclusive) end than Open. It was a split from a larger meeting in Sydney which broke up in 1930s. However, Londoners deny the eternal Sonship of Christ and are thus Arian. Our group had fairly usual view of the Trinity.

Patriarchal in organisation although the women were allowed to teach Sunday School to the smaller children. Our group ran three separate Sunday Schools as a community outreach. My sons went to two of those as well as the breaking of bread on Sunday morning and the gospel meeting on Sunday night. Hats were required for women in meetings and many wore them for family devotions as well. Weddings were conducted by civil registrars at the time and a separate meeting was held just before or after.

Only the KJV or Derby's translation were really approved of and I'm sure my then RSV brought disapproval. Having grown up in the Anglican church, I found the dispensational views very difficult to understand. After 40 years I could parrot the theology but never really believed it.

I refused to be rebaptised as I said I had been baptised once, even though that was as baby. I finally was allowed to join, despite my views here and others later who believed in paedo- baptism came out from under cover and spoke up. The group's accepting of both types was extremely unusual.

Even after 40 years, there were times I still felt an outsider. I think that was because of the group mindset. As individuals, they welcomed me and I have happy memories of picnics, readings, meals etc. I also appreciated their scriptural emphasis and knowledge even though I sometimes disputed their exegesis and hermeneutics.

My (ex) husband became extremely pentecostal in 1988 and we withdrew from the group. Several approached us and told us we "were going to Satan."

After being dragged around several pentecostal places, I have returned to my Anglican roots and now attend an Anglo-Catholic church in inner city Sydney which is inclusive and warm and welcoming. I 'm warmly treated by several family members who are still there, even though they are not blood family but relations of my husband. He has made himself persona non grata with his comments about them.

[ 11. May 2012, 10:21: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
They now have their own school. But I have met or have known some very pleasant friendly members – a colleague when I was teaching would stand in the staff workroom door with her coffee(?) and chat to those of us near her in the common room.

We have an elderly retired dentist in our assembly who used to be in the Exclusives.

In his day he was apparently pretty hot stuff, dentally speaking, and at one point in his career he gave some lectures to colleagues.

This raised the problem of what to do in the refreshments break, because he couldn't fellowship with unbelievers, so it was decreed that he could partake of a cup of tea with them as long as he remained standing, and did not put his feet under the same table with them.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

We have a Brethren chapel ('Gospel Hall') round the corner, although I don't know where they sit on the Brethren spectrum, and they do the odd leaflet drop and distribute leaflets in the street sometimes. I'm always struck by their slightly formal courtesy; they are never patronising, never pressurising. I like and respect that.

Have you looked at their noticeboard?

For instance, does it even mention the "Breaking of Bread" service or does it only refer to the "Gospel Service"? Does it declare that the meetings will take place "(D.V.)" on the "Lord's Day"? Are the texts displayed outside all in the Authorised Version?

These are clear guides as to how high up they are on whatever passes for the Brethren candle.

(By the way - talking of candles - it is interesting to note that one of the roots of Brethrenism was the Albury Conferences of the 1840s which certainly pushed for Premillenialism and a Restoration of the NT Church, and which was also instrumental in the founding of the high-church Charismatic "Catholic Apostolics". I do realise, of course, that both movements had other roots as well).

[ 11. May 2012, 10:24: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
We have an elderly retired dentist in our assembly who used to be in the Exclusives.

In his day he was apparently pretty hot stuff, dentally speaking, and at one point in his career he gave some lectures to colleagues.

This raised the problem of what to do in the refreshments break, because he couldn't fellowship with unbelievers, so it was decreed that he could partake of a cup of tea with them as long as he remained standing, and did not put his feet under the same table with them.

This reminds me of Watchman Nee's "Little Flock" church in, I think, Shanghai, which was strongly influenced by the "Exclusives". They had one gifted lady preacher who was visiting; all the men wanted to hear her but that was not allowed as they would then be "under her authority".

So they rigged up a curtain across the meeting room, the ladies all sat in front of it and the gentlemen sat behind, keeping very quiet!

If only they'd had an extension speaker or a video link to another room ...

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I've only had dealings with the Open Brethren and they were a sincere bunch and virtually indistinguishable from other conservative evangelical groups I encountered at that time (early 80s) other than a stronger emphasis on pre-millenialism and so on than was the 'norm' elsewhere.

I didn't stick around very long but learned a lot about the scriptures from them.

Their Bible knowledge was indeed impressive, but it often had a very woodenly literal slant to it.

They were lovely but seemed at a bit of a loss how to handle students and young-people who had rather more questions and didn't want to be treated like a grown-up Sunday school. They weren't particularly wierd on dress or anything like that.

There were a lot of ex-Brethren personnel in the 'restorationist' house-churches of the 1970s and 80s and their influence on evangelicalism as a whole was disproportionate to their size. They had some respected Bible teachers and scholars such as F F Bruce, one of the few conservative Bible scholars respected outside of conservative circles.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I've had dealings with a Gospel Hall church through church concerts. The people I've met there just seem like slightly old-fashioned (i.e. mostly elderly) evangelicals. This is an inner city, multicultural congregation. To judge from what they sing at the concerts, they've developed a taste for modern worship music, but I suspect that they still sing some older hymns at church.

My assumption is that the Gospel Hall people, whose churches are dotted around my city, must be more open to the outside world (i.e. to other Christians, to technology) than some of the other types. Plus, in a big city it must be very hard to withdraw from contact with others. The ones who live like that are surely condemned to stay in smallish towns in distant suburbs.

I know of two authors with Plymouth Brethren Backgrounds - Ken Follett and Mez Packer. It's a shame they haven't written about that experience!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
We have a Brethren chapel ('Gospel Hall') round the corner, although I don't know where they sit on the Brethren spectrum, and they do the odd leaflet drop and distribute leaflets in the street sometimes. I'm always struck by their slightly formal courtesy; they are never patronising, never pressurising. I like and respect that.

Have you looked at their noticeboard?

For instance, does it even mention the "Breaking of Bread" service or does it only refer to the "Gospel Service"? Does it declare that the meetings will take place "(D.V.)" on the "Lord's Day"? Are the texts displayed outside all in the Authorised Version?

These are clear guides as to how high up they are on whatever passes for the Brethren candle.

....

Breaking of Bread, yes; poster with AV text on it, yes; can't remember about 'Lord's Day' but I think not, and no 'D.V.'
So where would that place them?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've had dealings with a Gospel Hall church through church concerts. The people I've met there just seem like slightly old-fashioned (i.e. mostly elderly) evangelicals. This is an inner city, multicultural congregation. To judge from what they sing at the concerts, they've developed a taste for modern worship music, but I suspect that they still sing some older hymns at church.

My assumption is that the Gospel Hall people, whose churches are dotted around my city, must be more open to the outside world (i.e. to other Christians, to technology) than some of the other types. Plus, in a big city it must be very hard to withdraw from contact with others. The ones who live like that are surely condemned to stay in smallish towns in distant suburbs.

I know of two authors with Plymouth Brethren Backgrounds - Ken Follett and Mez Packer. It's a shame they haven't written about that experience!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I've a lot of time for the Open Brethren. I've met some impressive people from that background. The quality of their fellowship, family life and care for one another can put the rest of us to shame.

The Exclusives are odd. There is an assembly in this city that looks like a warehouse. I think the case Ender's Shadow refers to isn't about it being illegal to worship in private. It isn't. I think it is that you don't get exemption from have to pay rates unless the building is open for public worship. So the notice will be very discouraging.

Their women wear headscarves not just in services (I assume) but in the street. It has been alleged that they take separation, and 'come you out from among them for they are unclean' so seriously that they separate their household sewers from other peoples'. I don't know if that is true.

I've also heard that they don't approve of ties. I don't know why. But it will be some reason on a par with rejecting radio and television but not telephone because the waves go through the air rather than along wires. Though I'd have thought that even in the wires, their speech is mixing with that of the godless.

The descendants from Hussites in the UK are the Moravians. They are not like that at all. There aren't many of them, though, because when people were converted through them in the C18, they told them to stick with their own churches unless they actually joined a Moravian settlement.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Breaking of Bread, yes; poster with AV text on it, yes; can't remember about 'Lord's Day' but I think not, and no 'D.V.'
So where would that place them?

Fairly traditional "Open Brethren" I would have thought. The "Exclusives" wouldn't even mention the "Breaking of Bread" - that's strictly for insiders!

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Edmund Gosse wrote well-known memoir called Father and Son. It tells of a motherless boy growing up with a very devout father who was a leader in the Plymouth Brethren in the nineteenth century.

Judging by what has been posted here, it seems that many Brethren congregations haven't changed much since then.

Moo

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Patricia Beer wrote a memoir of her childhood in the Brethren in my home town, Mrs Beer's House.

What surprises me is that in my childhood they didn't tie in with that narrow image. The gentle RK teacher had his name on the Gospel Hall as a Sunday preacher. I attended children's tea parties at the homes of two Brethren families (which ended up with us being give fliers for Crusaders).

They clearly can't have been Exclusive if I was offered chocolate cake and jelly at their homes.

[ 11. May 2012, 12:17: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Posting mix-up earlier. What I meant to say, Svitlana, is that Garrison Keillor is from a Brethren background, and has written about it, humorously- e.g. see the chapter 'Protestant' in Lake Wobegon Days.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

No, but even the Exclusives weren't that bad until the 1960s under the leadership of James Taylor Jnr, when pets were banned and then later when you had to live in a detached house with exclusive drainage etc

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

Actually I think its more straightforward than that - I've never seen a place that calls itself a Gospel Hall being anything other than Open Brethren. Its pretty much what this group call their buildings, by default.

Here is the one I grew up in, still looks much the same as it did back in the 70's when I left for Uni.

ETA Crossposted - I was replying to Baptist Trainfan

[ 11. May 2012, 12:25: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

On this literary thing - was the background of Jeanette Winterson's Oranges are not the only fruit Brethren or something else?

(The reviews at the time of its publishing gave the impression it was a great cry for lesbian liberation from a repressive religious background. I got the impression Winterson admired the bloody mindedness of her chapel.)

Edit: Given the matriarchal nature of the group in Oranges, perhaps not. Sorry for the distraction.

[ 11. May 2012, 12:30: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

No, that was a Pentecostal Church (Elim, I think - but I'm not sure). Not Brethren, for sure. More detail in her latest book, which is more autobiographical than "Oranges".

[ 11. May 2012, 12:42: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Thanks for all the refs to memoirs, and autobiographical writing!

Venbede, I understand that Jeanette Winterson's family were Pentecostals of some kind rather than Brethren.

It's interesting that all this material is either biography, or heavily biographical. Modern authors don't seem to explore this territory in purely fictional form. (Winterson's Oranges , which I haven't yet read, is often classed as fiction, but it's clearly highly autobiographical.)

Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :

In her recent memoir, Why Be Happy When You Could Be Normal? Jeanette Winterson speaks of her mother's chapel as Charismatic Pentecostal.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's interesting that all this material is either biography, or heavily biographical. Modern authors don't seem to explore this territory in purely fictional form.

Well, there are Frankie Schaeffer's books (admittedly heavily based on his own experiences); and Barbara Kingsolver's "Poisonwood Bible", perhaps.

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

The word "Brethren" can throw people off when it comes to definitions. Here is the States The Church of the Brethren has Anabaptist roots and is deeply committed to non-resistance and conflict resolution In the US, at least, they are considered one of the three historic Peace Churches (along with the Mennonites and Quakers).

I noticed that the Wiki entry actually says: "Not to be confused with (Plymouth) Brethren."

I believe a member of the Chruch of the Brethren in the US founded The Heifer Project, now known as Heifer International.

sabine

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

. . .or it might have been a Chruch of the Brethren member in Canada who founded Heifer.

S.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's interesting that all this material is either biography, or heavily biographical. Modern authors don't seem to explore this territory in purely fictional form.
Well, there are Frankie Schaeffer's books (admittedly heavily based on his own experiences); and Barbara Kingsolver's "Poisonwood Bible", perhaps.

I was thinking particularly of Briitsh authors, though. American ones get loads of mileage out of evangelical themes, so it appears!

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

The church I was part of years ago used to have a church camp on a site owned by a farmer who was a member of a Brethren Assembly. They were lovely, godly, welcoming people. Probably not Exclusive, I guess.

My youth leader from those days recalled tales of his uncle getting into trouble for buying a car with red wheels, and also I remember him as the source of a comment that the advertising slogan for television ("Brings the world into your living room") could hardly have been better calculated to put off possible Brethren purchasers.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

I know that there are other "exclusive" brethren groups outside of the Raven/Taylor/Hales group.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Yeah, there's Glanton and Tunbridge Wells for starters although I think those groups (which date from splits in the late 19th and early 20th centuries) have re-merged recently.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Somebody I once knew slightly had been brought up 'Glanton', and even as an insider, didn't know how they were different from other sorts of brethren.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I dug out Garrison Kelier's Lake Wobegon Days and read the chapter "Protestant" this afternoon. Thanks for flagging it up.

Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on :

I was a Liverpool Brethren and went to an ''open'' assembly, which has now developed into a thriving general evangelical church.

We had 'breaking of bread' on Sunday morning, with open prayer and sharing (by men only). Then there was the 6.30 p.m. gospel service.

Very sincere, very strict on avoiding ''worldly'' pleasures and pretty good at children and youth work, with a strong missionary ethos. No alcohol, smoking or swearing and trips to the theatre etc were too ''worldly'' !

Due to the J.N. Derby background usually very pre millennial and strongly pro Israel. The King James Version was preferred.

Many aspect of British evangelicalism was influenced by the (open) Brethren. They were the storm troops to an extent of British Protestantism, in many respects.

Saul

PS there were a fair sprinkling of Brethren Assembly buildings across Liverpool and it was a small but influential sect of Christianity.

[ 11. May 2012, 20:23: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service. They were wonderful people, perhaps more open because they had to accommodate different denominational allegiances (there wasn’t much else in Malta in those days if you weren’t RC).

The assembly included, of course, senior military people as well as us young sprogs. They looked after us so well, taking us home for some good food, driving us to the beaches and so on. I owe them so much. I remain in annual touch with one member.

On the other hand, I had to prove myself as a ‘true’ Christian before I was allowed to participate at the Breaking of Bread or to say a word during the service (sometimes it was quite Quaker-ish in style). And it was obvious to all that there were strict guidelines about living!

For me, the time with them was a good grounding for subsequent Bible College and Christian ministry.

The group’s ‘leader’ was a Mr Ego – a patriarchal type and lovely man.

They must be turning in their graves now as I have rejected it all.

The building in Malta is still used by non-conformists – evangelical Baptists I think.

Today, in UK, Open Brethren increasingly appoint pastors and they are paying them , too. As someone said, the New Churches of the 70’s / 80’s / 90’s attracted many Brethren people and not a few became leaders – it is ironic that mid-week Bible teaching in these churches was, in my experience, never taken really seriously.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

In Scotland we had a very rigid Brethern "church", where the women and children had to have long hair and things on it, and who were a problem and later closed down after the man in charge higher up in Scotland behaved badly, - and then later I moved elsewhere where there was a really nice Brethern church, and I went there with my friends in the evening, and the person in charge, without me asking or thinking about it, made me a member!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
(there wasn’t much else in Malta in those days if you weren’t RC).

This is a frivolous digression.

The tallest building in Valetta was the Anglican Cathedral, although I believe the dome of the Carmelite church was deliberately build a bit taller in the 50s to overtop it.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
In Scotland we had a very rigid Brethern "church", where the women and children had to have long hair and things on it, and who were a problem and later closed down after the man in charge higher up in Scotland behaved badly...

This wouldn't be James Taylor jr and the Aberdeen incident would it?

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

I consider them poisonous. Having had a branch of the family seriously messed up from the mid-1930s by them. The last group of relatives appears to be coming out from the shadow of the group, but it will be their children's generation that makes it.

The things I would note:
-excessive guilt
-self denial
-biblical literalism in degrees
-personal adherence to their version of Christianity
-self righteousness and judgementalism
-God seems pretty stern and a taskmaster
-more guilt, and repressed emotions.

Perhaps there are other groups. I have letters written between great grandparents that are all in bible verse code. But they were committed. I am descended from a woman who gave up a fortune to "serve as a missionary among the heathen".

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

I have always had a lot of respect for F.F. Bruce's scholarship and good sense, and his book on New Testament History was a great help for me in contextualizing the books of the NT.

On the other hand, the Brethren also spawned Aleister Crowley, so I suppose there's a light and a shadow side.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I had to prove myself as a ‘true’ Christian before I was allowed to participate at the Breaking of Bread or to say a word during the service (sometimes it was quite Quaker-ish in style). And it was obvious to all that there were strict guidelines about living!

For me, the time with [the Brethren] was a good grounding for subsequent Bible College and Christian ministry.

The group’s ‘leader’ was a Mr Ego – a patriarchal type and lovely man.

They must be turning in their graves now as I have rejected it all.

I'd have thought that strict churches like the one you describe have to get fairly hardened to people falling away from the faith, because with such high standards this must happen quite regularly. It's hard for people to enter the circle, easier to fall out of it, or to be ejected.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.

General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.

Yes, I had forgotten that.

On the critique by no_prophet, I would in general agree. During my days with them (1950's-60's) I was naive and a Good Little Evangelical so was glad to be cared-for, fussed-over. And the Malta Anglicans and Methodists (whose churches I never sort out) were anathema.

I do, however, suspect that much has changed within Brethren circles in UK these days.

Come to think of it - I've not seen the characteristic simple head-scarves of the female Exclusives for a few years.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:

The things I would note:
-excessive guilt
-self denial
-biblical literalism in degrees
-personal adherence to their version of Christianity
-self righteousness and judgementalism
-God seems pretty stern and a taskmaster
-more guilt, and repressed emotions.

Yes, a friend of mine was brought up Brethren. She still suffers from excessive guilt.

Her son is a fine, hard working, caring family man - but she can't get rid of her upset that he isn't married. This is spoiling her relationship with him/them.

[Frown]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.

Didn't know that. The ones I grew up with were, generally, conscientious objectors. At least one of whom spent some time in front line medical rescue services.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
In Scotland we had a very rigid Brethern "church", where the women and children had to have long hair and things on it, and who were a problem and later closed down after the man in charge higher up in Scotland behaved badly...
This wouldn't be James Taylor jr and the Aberdeen incident would it?

Yes, that specific incident is what made all the ones in our place get out and close it down.

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

My memories of the Brethren are now quite old, but remain very unpleasant. As a child I attended the Baptist Church, but from 1968-69, for 18 months, I worshipped with the Brethren. Though I think they were open rather than exclusive, women had to cover their heads and weren't allowed to speak during the service. They all had an anti-Catholic loathing. They were all new earth creationists, who wouldn't entertain the idea of fellowship with non-Christians. They were run by a small group of elders, who hated all aspects of the spirit of the 60's. at morning service, people sat around until someone, men only, felt inspired to stand up and give a lesson. Eventually, an elder would get up and say, "Let us give thanks and break the bread." Served with unfermented grape juice, because alcohol was seriously verboten.

As a mid teenager, I was very much into 60's culture. Astronony and evolution, both of which I studied at school and loved, made me feel that this creationism was a total load of baloney. One evening service, a guest speaker told of how he'd just come back from holiday, but had been unable to have any fellowship with any of the non-Christians he'd met on the tour. Over the cup of tea afterwards, I said to him, "It's a good thing that Jesus didn't feel that way." It all went silent, and I felt like Oliver Twist when he asked for more! I then realised that I could stand no more of their loveless, bigoted, narrow minded crap that they had the audacity to call "good news." Two of the elders of this church assured me that I'd made a pact with the devil, and would surely burn with him in the Lake of Fire. These people put me off Christianit for 25 years, and even now, 43 years later, I shudder at that manifestation of Christianity

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

An interesting story. Back in 1976 I was in north-east Scotland (Fraserburgh) helping conduct a mission in the Pentecostal church. In the congregation were quite a number of folk who'd defected from the Brethren after the Taylor scandal.

The general opinion was that the Exclusives, realising they needed to be more visible and less introverted if such a thing was not to happen again, had become much more open. The Opens, on the other hand, had tended to close ranks in order to make sure that they did not become tainted ...

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Eventually, an elder would get up and say, "Let us give thanks and break the bread." Served with unfermented grape juice, because alcohol was seriously verboten.

The (Open) Assembly I attended in Southampton around the same time used Port at Communion, although most if not all of its members were teetotal at other times.

One day - having worshipped there for some time - I felt 'led' to break the bread and serve the wine. Afterwards a fellow-student came up to me and said,"You shouldn't have done that, the Elders won't be pleased". But nothing could have been further from the truth - they were delighted.

[ 12. May 2012, 10:10: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

No Prophet I can see what's wrong with your other charges but,
"personal adherence to their version of Christianity".

I must be missing something. That seems an odd failing. I'd be very suspicious of any sort of Christian conviction that could not be described that way. Can't you be charged with that? Or are you saying that your version is the true and universal one against which all others stand or fall?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:

The things I would note:
-excessive guilt
-self denial
-biblical literalism in degrees
-personal adherence to their version of Christianity
-self righteousness and judgementalism
-God seems pretty stern and a taskmaster
-more guilt, and repressed emotions.

Yes, a friend of mine was brought up Brethren. She still suffers from excessive guilt.

Her son is a fine, hard working, caring family man - but she can't get rid of her upset that he isn't married. This is spoiling her relationship with him/them.

I think a lot of Christian mothers would feel uneasy about this, not just Brethren ones. But of course, it depends on what kind of Christian you are. Some have a high regard for marriage. It's probably better not to nag, though, because that just gets on people's nerves.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
Didn't know that. The ones I grew up with were, generally, conscientious objectors. At least one of whom spent some time in front line medical rescue services.

I don't think there was ever a universal "line" on military service amongst the Brethren.

Some served, some were conscientious objectors, and some. like my father-in-law, refused to bear arms but served in medical units.

FiL also conscientiously objected to voting, which is compulsory in Australia.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

Possibly some confusion between the Church of the Brethren and the Plymouth/Open brethren, maybe?

The former is a pacifist peace church which did refuse to participate in war. I don't know a lot about them, but I believe they're not evangelical or calvinistic.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
Didn't know that. The ones I grew up with were, generally, conscientious objectors. At least one of whom spent some time in front line medical rescue services.
I don't think there was ever a universal "line" on military service amongst the Brethren.

Some served, some were conscientious objectors, and some. like my father-in-law, refused to bear arms but served in medical units.

FiL also conscientiously objected to voting, which is compulsory in Australia.

Given the fierce independence of Brethren Assemblies, I'm not surprised by variations re conscientious objection. The old boys in the church I joined all those years ago who might have served during WW2 were all conscientious objectors. But one or two others who were younger did National Service (at the time it was compulsory).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Anthony Crosland's father, who was an active (what's the singular? not 'Brother', surely?) member of the Brethren, was a very senior official in the British War Office.

Small tangent maybe, but thinking of Crosland (high minded higher-middle or lower-higher middle class)would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are? If so, can anyone suggest why this might be?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Anthony Crosland's father, who was an active (what's the singular? not 'Brother', surely?) member of the Brethren

Actually, that is precisely what it is - or was, at least. And "Sisters" for the ladies.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are?

See my initial post. Mind you my deputy headmaster (he tried to teach my German) was a Congregationalist.

Maybe it was just the protestant work ethic enhanced by a sense of social isolation.

[ 12. May 2012, 16:38: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by CuppaT (# 10523) on :

This is my Christian heritage as well. I did not know that I was a Plymouth Brethren, though, until I was filling out a college application and had to fill in the denomination blank. I had always been taught that we were simply Christians. I have always been thankful for my heritage and the things that I learned there in the chapel growing up. My childhood there is a large part of my spiritual formation. But I was in the PB denomination only until age 17 when I left for college, away from home and out of state. Then I went exploring, so to speak, studying is more like it, and never looked back.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

The only contact I have had with Brethren was in the late 70’s at university, when one of the girls on my course was Plymouth Brethren - that's what she called herself.

When she went to university her family disowned her and she was not allowed to go home again or to see any of them. Her mum used to write to her but it had to be secretly. I guess they must have been exclusive.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I have touched base with the Brethren only on rare occasions. And suspect they were more 'Open' than 'Plymouth' even though they were quite strict in some areas.

I used to work at a boarding school for special needs pupils, which had a Brethren foundation (although other people could work there, they were expected to be Christians or in sympathy with the Christian faith). School assemblies - very Gospel-orientated - were compulsory for students and staff, but Sunday church services were optional. The only time I saw pressure put on students was that it was expected at their leaving service that they would make a declaration of faith as well as say how grateful they were to the school for their education. Some pupils defied this, which wasn't accepted too well by the Brethren headteacher.

My second contact was at college, where some friends were Brethren. I went to one of their services, which appeared to be similar to the Quakers in that they sat around in silence until someone spoke and gave a message. But they were different from the Quakers in that it was only the men who spoke, and the women had to wear little headscarves. I was given one especially for the occasion, otherwise I wouldn't have been allowed in. Strangely, if you went to the morning service, you didn't have to wear a headscarf, but in the evening service you did - something that didn't really make sense to me.

I also went with these friends to a Brethren houseparty - a Christian weekend camp. It was much like any other youth camp except for a few extra rules - eg. no playing table tennis and other games on Sunday, you were supposed to sit quietly on your bed, preferably reading the Bible. No buying anything, not even an ice cream on the beach, on Sundays. There was a particular talk I remember about charismatics and gifts of the Spirit, which were roundly condemned as being only for Biblical times - Christians who believed in such things were deluded. Also another talk about finding a godly partner, not to be paired with an ungodly one, and that God would show each man a suitable (ie. quiet and submissive) wife. I remember getting quite hot under the collar during the talks and muttering under my breath - at which the young pastor turned round and winked at me! He'd make a good shipmate as I think he was enjoying being rather unrestful. [Big Grin]

I had huge respect for some very dear friends, but wouldn't ever be able to join their church permanently - far too many restrictions for my wilful and rebellious nature.

Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
They are the only Christian denomination we Irish can claim to have founded. Given how busy the English have been founding denominations its nice that we get to claim at least one.

In 'Goodbye to All That', Robert Graves quoted a man from Limerick, where he was posted towards the end of WW1, saying "Everyone in Ireland dies of drink except for the Plymouth Brethren, who die of religious melancholia".

Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.

Brethren influence on the church is out of all proportion to their small numbers. Many have spring boarded away from being PBs to more main line denominations. FF Bruce was a well known theologian who came to our Assembly in Liverpool on a few occasions.

The other area they were strong on was ''the last days'' and prophecy of the eschatological kind. I well remember an old boss of mine explaining Ezekiel 38 & 39 and coming invasion of Israel by Russia.

Orde Wingate was a strong Zionist although not Jewish. He was the founding father of the modern Israel Defence Force (IDF). He set up counter terrorist Jewish night forces that quelled the Arab revolt in the 1930s (in Palestine).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orde_Wingate

Saul

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The other area they were strong on was ''the last days'' and prophecy of the eschatological kind.

Anything to do with prophecy and the last days is by definition eschatological.

What early Brethren such as J.N. Darby invented was the dispensational premillenial variety of eschatology, which many Brethren (such as myself) reject, and which many non-Brethren (such as the authors of the recent and famous Left Behind series) have adopted, largely as a result of the popularity of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909).

Dispensationalism as such is broader than its eschatological application, and in fact consists of an (abortive)attempt at a consistent literalist hermeneutic in which, for example, terms such as "Israel" and "kingdom"
always refer to the actual nation and an actual earthly reign, and never to the church.

[ 13. May 2012, 09:31: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

Posted by OhSimone (# 16414) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The only contact I have had with Brethren was in the late 70’s at university, when one of the girls on my course was Plymouth Brethren - that's what she called herself.

This is interesting - self-identification is a good way of assessing where someone is on the Brethren "spectrum". Unless pushed, and unless the person I asking was familiar with the spectrum, I'd never identify myself as a Brethren Christian - only as a Christian. I'm on the far end of Open, which means that I'm not fussy about a lot of stuff.

The opposite direction is described as getting 'tighter'. That would mean more and more adherence to Brethren principles (head coverings, gender roles, dispensational eschatology, hair cuts and so on). I'd find these Christians more likely to identify themselves as Brethren. I find that most people hear the word Brethren and think of that girl at school that wore a headscarf and gloves and was taken out of assembly - that's definitely not the brethrenism I know.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

Small tangent maybe, but thinking of Crosland (high minded higher-middle or lower-higher middle class)would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are? If so, can anyone suggest why this might be?

They're a very 'book-ish, word-based' (Bible plus commentaries only) group as a rule (no pictures, no symbols, only music is a-capella singing from 'Little Flock') so tend to attract the more cerebral, educated, intellectual and hence middle-class types.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There was a particular talk I remember about charismatics and gifts of the Spirit, which were roundly condemned as being only for Biblical times - Christians who believed in such things were deluded.

This, of course, is a natural consequence of their Dispensational approach (and shared by many others): we are "beyond" that Primitive Church age in which these things happened, as we now have the N.T. Scriptures and no longer need gifts such as Prophecy.

Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on :

It's probably worth mentioning that many traditional ''open'' Brethren assemblies have either stayed the same, closed down or many have actually remained open and ''moved with the times'' considerably.

Certainly the latter option, moving with the times, in terms of a change in worship and theology has been a common option IMHO here in the UK. It's a diverse picture really and one example cannot fit all.

A short history I came across may be helpful...

http://www.brethrenhistory.org/?pageid=809

Saul

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Thanks, Saul. Tim Grass is a good guy.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

That's certainly true. I used to go to Bitterne Gospel Hall in Southampton in the early 1970s - that's closed now and the building seems to be used by a Vineyard Church. On the other hand Gracious Rebel upthread indicated a traditional Gospel Hall she knows in Ipswich.

Talking of Southampton, you would never know from their website that Portswood Church comes from a Brethren background. The International Gospel Church in Burnt Oak, London does mention its roots (but has moved far from them), as does Prince Andrew's Chapel in Aldborough, Norfolk.

(I mention these as they are all churches I have known).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

Small tangent maybe, but thinking of Crosland (high minded higher-middle or lower-higher middle class)would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are? If so, can anyone suggest why this might be?
They're a very 'book-ish, word-based' (Bible plus commentaries only) group as a rule (no pictures, no symbols, only music is a-capella singing from 'Little Flock') so tend to attract the more cerebral, educated, intellectual and hence middle-class types.

Yes, that would make sense.

Posted by Saul the Apostle (# 13808) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That's certainly true. I used to go to Bitterne Gospel Hall in Southampton in the early 1970s - that's closed now and the building seems to be used by a Vineyard Church. On the other hand Gracious Rebel upthread indicated a traditional Gospel Hall she knows in Ipswich.

Talking of Southampton, you would never know from their website that Portswood Church comes from a Brethren background. The International Gospel Church in Burnt Oak, London does mention its roots (but has moved far from them), as does Prince Andrew's Chapel in Aldborough, Norfolk.

(I mention these as they are all churches I have known).

BT

your experiences mirror my own. My home church in Liverpool now has a full time Pastor and for all intents and purposes is post Brethren.

The interesting thing is the examples you gave are ones where the churches appear to have moved forwards and this in itself seems very positive.

Most of the ''positive'' is in relation to the Open brethren and I can't make any comments on the Exclusive Brethren as I have no knowledge or experience of them whatsoever.

Anything I have ever heard about the Exclusive wing of the movement was pretty negative and quite shocking. Namely, people being alienated and isolated. It appears very controlling and lacking in love.

Saul

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

There used to be a Plymouth Brethren Chapel in my town, but not for many years now (I've found a record from 1911). Not sure what happened to them, but there are at least two independent chapels so maybe some of their descendants went there.

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