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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Germany goes Pirate
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Polling at 7.8%, the German Pirate Party has managed to jump the crucial 5% barrier in the recent election in Nordrhein-Westfalen (the most populous state at 18 million), the fourth in a row after Berlin (8.9%), Saarland (7.4%), and Schleswig-Holstein (8.2%). They are hence looking rather good now for the federal elections. They are of course famous for being supportive of ... uhhh ... the free exchange of software. They do have other policies though, to a degree. Perhaps they are perhaps most interesting for their attempt to "crowd-source" politics with their Liquid Feedback. That's basically an open forum for policy ideas.
At any rate, it looks like after the Greens Germany will now have a second party that stands for the combination of an issue, a lifestyle and a generation. Except this time it's not the environment and the post-hippies, but it is the internet and the geeks. This would no doubt lead to some serious consequences down the track, with Germany throwing increasing weight around on the international stage, while being Pirated as it was once Greened.
Hollywood, prepare to be boarded by Klaus Störtebeker?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Full of Chips
Shipmate
# 13669
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Posted
I actually think that digital democracy has a lot of appeal. A major problem in UK democracy is that the main political parties have been hijacked by vested interests leading to policy-making dominated by the rich and powerful. that's why we're still supporting private banks that should have gone to the wall in 2007 and ripping our society apart in the process. Does a nineteenth century model of parties of representatives getting together to decide all law-making by bi-polar debate really make sense in our hugely complex and diverse twenty-first century world?
That the Pirates are making progress with this in Germany is, I think, an encouraging sign that it can work for real. I also like the Icelandic approach to "crowd-sourcing" their new constitution.
Posts: 136 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I don't know why society can't agree on a commonsense definition of intellectual property.
In the United States, if business interests get their druthers, Mickey Mouse will be de facto the property of Disney forever, because whenever the term is about to expire, they get Congress to extend the duration of copyrights. Disney had a deal with the public when Mickey Mouse was created: like other mental output, it would be protected for a certain number of years with the understanding that it would then enter the public domain. Disney and its allies have unilaterally torn up that deal several times. The U.S. Constitution empowers congress as follows: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries". Given the rationale and delineation of this power, how the Supreme Court can sustain recent copyright extensions against challenge boggles my mind. Apparently at present, copyright neither exists for a limited period nor promotes the progress of science and useful arts.
Another recent abuse is the effort to patent computer algorithms, especially algorithms which one cannot prove one has not actually developed. This is no better than a dog's peeing on a fire hydrant to stake out territory that was once part of the commons.
Given the above status quo, perhaps we would be better off with the pirates. At least, I'm all in favor of fighting fire with fire by means of open source "copyleft" and similar concepts. That the quality of products can be so outstanding in this arrangement, together with its proven economic viability, is one of the more promising developments along a rather bleak horizon. Do I hear any objection either from free-market types or from theologians?
[ 14. May 2012, 20:23: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Tangential question to Full of Chips: What is the Icelandic approach to "crowd-sourcing" their new constitution?
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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DunkDuffel
Apprentice
# 16576
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Posted
The Pirate Party is a very interesting development, getting a whole range of people at least partially engaged with politics. As you nearly said, they could be the new Greens.
For some time, maybe forever, people have got involved with politics because of a single issue, which directly affected them. Idealist or selfish. Pirates, Greens, all the way back to the Labour/Socialist movements and probably beyond.
But you can't get elected to run a country on a single issue - unless you're at war. So you can't remain single issue, you have to look at a range of concerns.
In the UK, the Greens may well be on this journey and, hopefully, the extreme right aren't.
So, in these turbulent times in Europe, we'll be watching with interest.
D
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DunkDuffel
Posts: 33 | From: Elephant & Castle | Registered: Aug 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I don't know why society can't agree on a commonsense definition of intellectual property.
Because there are real conflicts of interest. So someone has to lose out or compromise. That's what politics is for.
quote:
Originally posted by Full of Chips:
I also like the Icelandic approach to "crowd-sourcing" their new constitution.
There aren't that many people in Iceland. Everybody who is interested in politics knows everybody else. There are council estates bigger than Iceland in Britain and Germany.
OK, I exagerrate for effect. The population Iceland is actually about three times the size of the largest public housing projects in England. The population of the whole country is a little bit larger than Brighton, a little bit smaller than Coventry.
Which is not to say they aren't doing well, but its a lot easier to get consensus on changes in direction from that number of people.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
There are other ways of viewing intellectual property. I'm thinking particularly of some First Nations traditions, where a family or an individual owns a song or a story, and they decide who gets to hear it, learn it and pass it on. It can also belong to the entire nation but be entrusted to elders. This pdf from the Assembly of First Nations describes the ways in which Aboriginal traditional knowledge is held, and the impact of Western ideas of intellectual property ownership. There is a detailed list of these conflicting ideas starting on page 14. OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The problem with intellectual property is that it caters to those who own stuff, not to those who use it.
Consumers of media of all kinds want to be able to click and have it, and they'll pay for it if it is readily available. They will download from nonpaid sources if they can't get it other ways. The problem is outmoded thinking, outmoded delivery of content and catering to old fogeys who don't actually produce anything of any value, but who want to get rich without doing any of the necessary work or either creating or updating delivery systems.
There's also open source, which I bring up only so I can say: Go copyleft and then use the copyleft symbol because I think it's cool! ↄ⃝
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
From what I understand, Brazil is an example of a country that already has much, much looser ideas about intellectual property when it comes to the creative arts. Taking existing material and putting your new spin on it is an accepted part of cultural life.
I seem to remember that Brazil and India also both have much looser laws when it comes to patents on medicines.
Apparently some of the big intellectual-property owning nations like the USA aren't very happy with Brazil...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
The problem with intellectual property is that it caters to those who own stuff, not to those who use it.
How is that any different from the problem with real property?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
IMHO the Pirates are a shameful sign of how some Germans disrespect Democracy in an arrogant and rather decadent way.
Whoever voted for them did not have the well-being of the nation in mind. It was an irresponsible lifestyle-vote by that sad cohort which had the misfortune of having been educated by teachers belonging to the '68 generation.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
IMHO the Pirates are a shameful sign of how some Germans disrespect Democracy in an arrogant and rather decadent way.
Whoever voted for them did not have the well-being of the nation in mind. It was an irresponsible lifestyle-vote by that sad cohort which had the misfortune of having been educated by teachers belonging to the '68 generation.
Any particular reason for thinking that, or do you just not like them?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
The problem with intellectual property is that it caters to those who own stuff, not to those who use it.
How is that any different from the problem with real property?
Mostly because real property is not anywhere near as easy to share for use. Using someone else's real property inevitably deprives the owner of use - even if it's temporarily and by consent.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Particular reason? Well, I am German, I grew up there, and I think I know a fair bit about my countrymen's history of thought. I also have been trained as a sociologist. And no, I don't like them.
Besides: This is not about intellectual property. It is about a political party. Which wants to have a say in how a country is run.
[ 15. May 2012, 09:33: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: From what I understand, Brazil is an example of a country that already has much, much looser ideas about intellectual property when it comes to the creative arts. Taking existing material and putting your new spin on it is an accepted part of cultural life.
The last Minister of Culture, Gilberto Gil, was a strong proponent of Creative Commons.
Actually, there are big discussions going on about intellectual property now. Not everyone is on the same side: some artists are afraid of loosening it up, and of course the record companies have their own opinions about it. But at least it's out in the open, so I guess that's a good thing.
quote:
orfeo: I seem to remember that Brazil and India also both have much looser laws when it comes to patents on medicines.
True. Actually, Oxfam was a big help when these countries negotiatied about this at the WTO conference in Doha.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Particular reason? Well, I am German, I grew up there, and I think I know a fair bit about my countrymen's history of thought. I also have been trained as a sociologist. And no, I don't like them.
Again, why not?
I don't know anything about them at all beyond the first few Google results and Ingo's links, hence the question.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Actually, there are big discussions going on about intellectual property now. Not everyone is on the same side: some artists are afraid of loosening it up, and of course the record companies have their own opinions about it.
The same debate is going on in Brazil with regard to biodiversity, Access and Benefit Sharing, and so on.
In other words, whether indigenous communities own rights to local plants, knowledge, and so on, and how these should be regulated. It's complicated.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Eutychus: It's complicated.
Definitely.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
@ Ricardus:
The reason I do not like the Pirate Party is that they are not what a political party ought to be: A set of people with ideas on how a nation should be run.
The Pirates (a) do not have a programme that stretches much beyond the free access to data issue. Ask five Pirates about Defence, Education, Social Services or Monetary Policy and you will get seven different answers (if you get an answer at all)
(b) according to polls, many of those who voted for them just wanted to show their disenchantment with the "established" parties. Of course everyone is entitled to this disenchantment, but there ought to be some suggestion as to an alternative.
That's why I do not like them.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The last Minister of Culture, Gilberto Gil, was a strong proponent of Creative Commons.
Ah, yes! As soon as I read the name I recognised it, he was interviewed as part of the program that I saw talking about this issue a few years ago.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
@ Ricardus:
The reason I do not like the Pirate Party is that they are not what a political party ought to be: A set of people with ideas on how a nation should be run.
The Pirates (a) do not have a programme that stretches much beyond the free access to data issue. Ask five Pirates about Defence, Education, Social Services or Monetary Policy and you will get seven different answers (if you get an answer at all)
Isn't that true of more or less any small party whatsoever? They aren't going to be forming the next German government, so having a complete programme is pointless. If they get seats, though, they may be in a position to lobby for their particular issue.
e.g. In the UK people don't vote UKIP because they want a UKIP government, but because they want a UKIP presence in Parliament that will influence the majority government in a Eurosceptic direction.
quote:
(b) according to polls, many of those who voted for them just wanted to show their disenchantment with the "established" parties. Of course everyone is entitled to this disenchantment, but there ought to be some suggestion as to an alternative.
I thought 'Liquid Democracy' was their suggestion for an alternative (to disenchantment, at least). It may or not be workable but it's there.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Desert Daughter: The reason I do not like the Pirate Party is that they are not what a political party ought to be: A set of people with ideas on how a nation should be run.
Oh, I don't know. We had a considerable number of one-issue parties in Holland. Some were quite bad (especially those on the extreme right), but there are some interesting ones. For example the Party for the Elderly, the Party for Students in my city, or the Party for the Animals. The last one holds a number of Parliament seats now.
I think they can add something to the spectrum. And my experience is that in time they develop some kind of consistent view on other issues as well.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
(tangent) There were lots of little parties when I lived in the Czech Republic, too.
My favourite was this one, which had the novel idea of saving money on publicity and leaflets by putting its entire manifesto in the party name as it (apparently - I couldn't vote) appeared on the ballot paper.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Do I hear any objection either from free-market types or from theologians?
Only the old, old one: why should anyone bother spending all the time it takes to create something new if they can't then profit from selling it to others? And, indeed, why should they bother putting the time and effort into creating something new if they can just wait for someone else to create it and then pirate it for their own profit?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Full of Chips:
I actually think that digital democracy has a lot of appeal.
Right. The internet is known for having a moderating influence on its participants...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Do I hear any objection either from free-market types or from theologians?
Only the old, old one: why should anyone bother spending all the time it takes to create something new if they can't then profit from selling it to others? And, indeed, why should they bother putting the time and effort into creating something new if they can just wait for someone else to create it and then pirate it for their own profit?
Absolutely, but the Pirate Party, AFAICT, doesn't want to abolish copyright altogether, but to reform it.
Article.
Blogpost from Swedish Pirate Party MEP.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
@ Ricardus:
The reason I do not like the Pirate Party is that they are not what a political party ought to be: A set of people with ideas on how a nation should be run.
Well, at one point we had a "Car Party" in Switzerland, and there was even a Beer Party in Poland for a few years in the early 90s. The Pirate Party sounds like a positively sober affair by comparison.
See it as strength of Germany's democracy that there is space for protest parties to evolve and fall back into oblivion. It gives a voice to important issues that resonate with a large part of the populace. If the large parties can absorb the ideas, then the protest party must move on or die. So rest assured, if the PP does not become an outfit with a full-fledged government policy programme(and to be fair the PP, surprised by its own success, it taking steps in this direction), it will eventually whither. Remember the Greens were born as a one-trick-pony protest movement, and, if I recall correctly, declared at one point in the mid 80s that they were "against politics". Meanwhile, they have evolved into a very votable party (and one I would consider if I could vote in Germany). I find it an irony of history that it was none other than the Green foreign minister Joschka Fischer to order the first German military action since WWII.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
@ Molopatha: You've got a point. I witnessed the rise of the Greens in Germany in the 1980's and remember the endless discussions on whether they could be taken "seriously" or not. Many of us (not me at the time I must admit) sensed that there was something important in their message, something that the (then) mainstream parties could not ignore, and it is heartening to see how ideas of sustainability and ecological consciousness have now entered every party's portfolio?
Are the Pirates in the same class as the Greens of yore? I am not sure. What they lobby for hardly has a bearing on the planet. They are much less brave, much less urgent, than the Greens were in their early days. The Greens were idealists, dreamers, more or less realistic. The Pirates...well, I find it hard to call them idealists or dreamers. They are just bored petty-bourgeois anti-intellectuals who are so pleased with themselves. They are so...prosaic compared to the Greens in the '80s.
But you're right. Vox Populi has found an outlet for its frustrations, I hope things will return to normal quickly. Next big test: Will any one of the "established" parties enter a coalition with the PP? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Do I hear any objection either from free-market types or from theologians?
Only the old, old one: why should anyone bother spending all the time it takes to create something new if they can't then profit from selling it to others? And, indeed, why should they bother putting the time and effort into creating something new if they can just wait for someone else to create it and then pirate it for their own profit?
Your guess is as good as mine, but it happens. Obviously you've never used Linux. I'd put it down to a combination of altruism (at best) and a desire to be respected in one's community (at worst: to put it theologically, the sin of pride does not necessarily imply the sin of avarice...) Even I must confess to feeling those motivators from time to time. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Now, this is not to say that there is no way to make a living from it. The hacker Eric S. Raymond (an erstwhile acquaintance of mine who lives in the area) is no wide-eyed socialist, but a practical libertarian. In his book The Cathedral and the Bazaar, he promoted (and perhaps even in part developed) the open-source model and predicted that service-oriented companies, which package a prodict, assist its users, and further develop it in response to customers' demand, could flourish without actually owning the product. And his personal investment in Red Hat Linux made him a millionaire.
[ 15. May 2012, 18:02: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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