Ship of Fools: Faith stories of the rich?

Thread: Faith stories of the rich? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

On another thread, SvitlanaV2 said

quote:
And the clergy love to use stories about poor but faithful/positive people (usually in the developing world) in their sermons. Wealthy men and women don't appear quite so often.

That got me thinking, what inspiring faith stories have I heard from the pulpit? One came immediately to mind, a woman who was financially wealthy but bedridden -- I've forgotten or never really know what, basically bedridden and in pain and yet positive in attitude for several years until she died, was periodically spoken of to us as an example of faith, but that was really a story of poverty even though of health rather than of money.

In other circles I've heard faith stories of the prosperity kind, "God gave me an idea for a business and it made me well off, yea God," but that's more likely "personal testimony" than pulpit chosen example of persistent faith for us to admire and imitate.

What kinds of "faith stories" inspiring to others to help them value God and trust God have you heard that have a rich person instead of a poor person as the topic? Is it harder for a rich person to be an living inspiration to others by the example of their life?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

We do hear lots of inspirational stories about wealthy men and women who give generously.

If the point is something other than their generous giving, we probably wouldn't know they were wealthy. If you're telling a story about someone who is very loving, or patient, or whatever point you're trying to make, there might not be any reason to mention their personal wealth. So possibly we have heard such stories of inspirational 1%ers, but just didn't realize.

otoh, if Jesus is to be believed, "it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom than for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle". So perhaps the reason we hear so few stories is because there are fewer stories to be told.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

The good samaritan - a wealthy man who stopped to help.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Lydia, the seller of purple (dye), was a vital supporter of Paul's early ministry.

Actually there has been a good bit of discussion on "sacrificial living" lately. Often it is a self-serving selling point for missionaries seeking support, but it is also discussed as a philosophy of Christian living in the First World. How much do we really need, and how much is just getting in our way?

A contemporary example would be Melinda Gates, a successful business woman and Roman Catholic, married to a very wealthy agnostic. Sure, the huge portion of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation comes from the "Bill" side of the ledger. But if you note dates, Bill Gates was not a noted philanthropist until 1994, the year of his marriage. They have since pledged to give away half their wealth during their lifetimes.

But they still hang on to that little $125,000,000 cottage in Medina, WA. Until the Apocolypse they'll never sacrifice it all. [Big Grin]

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

It strikes me that rich and powerful people have at least their fair share in terms of "faith stories", considering what a small proportion of the population they make up. To take a few examples scattered over history: Wilberforce, Augustine, even St. Francis were all from pretty privileged backgrounds. We always hear about the rich more than the poor anyway. Pulpit examples of the faith of the poor are just redressing the balance a bit, I think.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I've inspired someone to start a thread! Thanks, Belle!

Of course, there are plenty of wealthy Christians who've used their wealth in positive ways. In my experience, their wealth tends not to be the issue that's highlighted. (Does anyone remember Mrs Thatcher's unusual comments about the Good Samaritan?) The wealth is deemed to be of lesser importance, whereas poverty is is often a key element in stories about poor people.

That's just my impression. It's sometimes said that the church finds it awkward to offer support and encouragement to people who work in business and finance; moneymaking is deemed to be slightly undignified, somehow. It's easier to praise the work of nurses and teachers. I expect this tendency is more apparent in British Christianity than in American Christianity.

Of course, the wider society is fascinated by money, and by those who acquire large amounts of it.

(This isn't a personal issue for me - I'm an educator rather than a business person!)

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

The wealth is deemed to be of lesser importance, whereas poverty is is often a key element in stories about poor people.

Maybe the same thing is happening in both cases. If generosity is the point of the story, then you'll probably know if they're wealthy or poor. If contentment or gratitude is, then again, you'll probably know their financial statement. But if something else is the point, you probably won't know. Which means we don't really know if there's more stories about rich or poor.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

It's sometimes said that the church finds it awkward to offer support and encouragement to people who work in business and finance; moneymaking is deemed to be slightly undignified, somehow.

Or perhaps the problem is that it's difficult (not impossible, just difficult) to make a living in those fields w/o succumbing to value systems that are completely contrary to Christianity. From my own recent up-close-and-personal experience with the 1%, that seems like a very real possibility. And, again, consistent with what Jesus said about the subject.

Perhaps what's needed is evangelistic outreach.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Joan Kroc, the widow of the McDonald's guy, left more than $1.6 BILLION to The Salvation Army in the USA

Posted by Trickydicky (# 16550) on :

In world terms, just about any faith story for the West is going to be about a rich person.

Stories from the Bible: was the good Samaritan rich? In any case, it was a story that Jesus made up to make a point.

Zacchaeus was rich - and the point is that he gave it away as a response to meeting Jesus.

Perhaps we need to distinguish between faith stories where money or the lack thereof is central to the person's response, and faith stories where the wealth in incidental.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trickydicky:
In world terms, just about any faith story for the West is going to be about a rich person.

Very true, but this makes my point; we're familiar with our own standard of living, whereas the poverty of other people in other places is more exotic, and therefore more worthy of note. There may also be a touch of paternalism in this almost-cliche about poor people who are devout/virtuous/cheerful....

quote:

Stories from the Bible: was the good Samaritan rich? In any case, it was a story that Jesus made up to make a point.

Jesus made up lots of stories, of course, but the question here is whether or not his money is important to the story. Well, Mrs Thatcher's famous comment is that the Good Samaritan could only be of help in this case because he had money!

quote:

Zacchaeus was rich - and the point is that he gave it away as a response to meeting Jesus.

Perhaps we need to distinguish between faith stories where money or the lack thereof is central to the person's response, and faith stories where the wealth in incidental.

But is Zacchaeus' wealth incidental to the story? Most preachers mention the fact that his wealth had been dishonestly acquired. The story's power derives from the Zacchaeus' having been dishonest, greedy (and fraternising with gentiles?), yet being eager, in his damaged state, to invite a religious teacher to his house. Then he gives (all?) his ill-gotten money away. But preachers expect us to identify with particular aspects of a story rather than others; we are invited to identify with Zacchaeus the sinner, of course, but not Zacchaeus the dishonest and greedy man. Perhaps our preachers doubt that any dishonest and greedy people are likely to be listening to their sermons!

I speak as an ordinary layperson, and so my impressions are of someone in the pews, not of a preacher, priest or theologian. Those of you who write sermons or who study theology will most likely take a different view. That wouldn't surprise me at all!! Communication is a strange thing in churches, and there's very little focus on what laypeople actually 'take away' from sermons. What they learn may be rather different from what preachers intend.

Posted by CuppaT (# 10523) on :

My brother's hero is R.G. LeTourneau of Texas, an engineer, inventor, and founder of a university there. His goal in his younger days was to "reverse tithe" as he called it -- to live on 10 percent and to give 90 percent to missions and the church. By the time of his death he and his wife were living on only 2 percent of his earnings and giving the rest away.

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

When I hear about someone who inspires me, I seldom think of a wealth dichotomy.

Several people have been kind to me in recent weeks in ways that had nothing to do with money. I've also heard about several people who have done good deeds lately, and I don't know if they had to ask for donations or gave from their own pockets.

If I were going to preach a sermon about these people, no one would know the bank balances.

sabine

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CuppaT:
My brother's hero is R.G. LeTourneau of Texas, an engineer, inventor, and founder of a university there. His goal in his younger days was to "reverse tithe" as he called it -- to live on 10 percent and to give 90 percent to missions and the church. By the time of his death he and his wife were living on only 2 percent of his earnings and giving the rest away.

Preachers from my childhood used illustrations from the life of J.C. Penney.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CuppaT:
My brother's hero is R.G. LeTourneau of Texas, an engineer, inventor, and founder of a university there. His goal in his younger days was to "reverse tithe" as he called it -- to live on 10 percent and to give 90 percent to missions and the church. By the time of his death he and his wife were living on only 2 percent of his earnings and giving the rest away.

That's the kind of story that suggests potential application even if in the general sense of "what are your goals, financial or otherwise" and takes the opposite of the cultural meaning of "financial goals" meaning "accumulate more."

Giving it away after your death didn't affect your life, it's like giving away my books after my death, I don't see it as generosity, they will go somewhere other than my casket.

Biblical or historical examples don't speak to today the way current examples do.

The quote had to do with referring to current examples of faith among the poor in third world countries. I may have expressed poorly that my question was about current examples of wealthy and faith.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
[QUOTE] I may have expressed poorly that my question was about current examples of wealthy and faith.

I think we got that, and addressed that.

This sermon-worthy story popped up on facebook:

George Lucas

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

Sorry, feel good stories about a trifling few rich people who were Good People doesn't cut it. The exception does not make the rule.

1. screw over people in the morning
2. make a pile of money by noon
3. give some of the money away in the afternoon
4. chat it up on Ellen in the afternoon now that Oprah is gone about how Really Good you are.

This editorial by Stephen King is worth the read

quote:
And hey, why don’t we get real about this? Most rich folks paying 28 percent taxes do not give out another 28 percent of their income to charity. Most rich folks like to keep their dough. They don’t strip their bank accounts and investment portfolios. They keep them and then pass them on to their children, their children’s children. And what they do give away is—like the monies my wife and I donate—totally at their own discretion. That’s the rich-guy philosophy in a nutshell: don’t tell us how to use our money; we’ll tell you.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I've noticed that wealthy Christians seem to congregate with other wealthy Christians in wealthy churches. Perhaps that is where they feel least likely to be challenged about their wealth?

Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We do hear lots of inspirational stories about wealthy men and women who give generously.

If they gave generously enough, they wouldn't be wealthy any more. Jesus praised the widow who gave very little, because it was all she had, and not the rich man who gave a lot, bevause he could easily afford it.

Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CuppaT:
My brother's hero is R.G. LeTourneau of Texas, an engineer, inventor, and founder of a university there. His goal in his younger days was to "reverse tithe" as he called it -- to live on 10 percent and to give 90 percent to missions and the church. By the time of his death he and his wife were living on only 2 percent of his earnings and giving the rest away.

Since his giving is well-known, he obviously wasn't doing it right. You're supposed to keep quiet about it. Also, if he was rich enough, 2% may have been quite enough to live in comfort. Bill Gates could live on 0.2% of his income and still live in luxury.
Another question that needs addressing is how rich people make their dosh in the first place. If by winning a double rollover jackpot on the Eurolottery, fair enough, but most other methods involve ripping other people off. That's how capitalism works - it's a system of legalised theft.

[ 16. May 2012, 06:21: Message edited by: Steve H ]

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

MudFrog:

quote:
The good samaritan - a wealthy man who stopped to help.

This is often brought up in any discussion about whether Jesus' gospel is primarily for the poor. Not least by The Blessed Margaret.

What is the evidence that he was wealthy? I know of none. Obviously he had some money, as did Jesus' group of disciples. But in the light of the parable of the widow's mite, it may well be that he gave all he had. Also unprovable, of course.

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Another question that needs addressing is how rich people make their dosh in the first place. If by winning a double rollover jackpot on the Eurolottery, fair enough, but most other methods involve ripping other people off. That's how capitalism works - it's a system of legalised theft.

I would have thought precisely the opposite. My grandmother, for example, refused to participate in any form of lottery on the grounds that the winnings were not earned, and it would therefore be immoral to accept them.

Whilst I agree that many wealthy capitalists have acquired their money immorally, it seems rather pessimistic to say that it's impossible to become rich through legitimate means.

And are we necessarily talking about billionaires here? Wouldn't "rich" include many professionals / modest businessmen?

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I don't remember his name, and I don't know if he was a Christian, but I remember seeing a segment on a large business owner who decided to retire by selling his company. And he shared his earnings with all his employees by a formula of seniority of time with the company. Thus those who were approaching retirement could immediately, and everyone at least got a substantial nest-egg on top of their regular pension earnings.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Over a decade ago, I was part of a church women's group which showed a series of videos of "Famous Women Talk About Their Faith." The "famous women" weren't very famous - one was an actress from The Archers, another an athlete who'd won silver at the Commonwealth games IIRC - and the stories were rather dull. Then we had the video on Rosemary Conley, who described how her marriage had broken up, and she was very ill in hospital and in despair. She "found God" in hospital, and also found a low-fat diet to improve her health. She realised that the low-fat diet not only cured her gallbladder problems, it also slimmed her thighs, so she marketed the diet, became a multi-millionaire diet guru, married a much younger man, and remained slim. The conclusion went something like this "Before I found God, I was poor, lonely, ill and miserable, then I found God and now I live in a stonking great manor house, have a virile younger husband in my bed AND I've got thin thighs!"

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

LydaRose - what a fantastic story.

On the subject of philanthropy, I thought Carnegie's (?) maxim - 'the man who dies rich, dies disgraced' is a good one.

I also find it useful to join John and Yoko and imagine there's no heaven. If love eternal is expressed here and now (and, more pressingly, only here and now) then who would want to employ their resources in any other way?

It's hard to conquer greed, and even more so insecurity.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Sorry, feel good stories about a trifling few rich people who were Good People doesn't cut it. The exception does not make the rule.

1. screw over people in the morning
2. make a pile of money by noon
3. give some of the money away in the afternoon
4. chat it up on Ellen in the afternoon now that Oprah is gone about how Really Good you are.

This editorial by Stephen King is worth the read

quote:
And hey, why don’t we get real about this? Most rich folks paying 28 percent taxes do not give out another 28 percent of their income to charity. Most rich folks like to keep their dough. They don’t strip their bank accounts and investment portfolios. They keep them and then pass them on to their children, their children’s children. And what they do give away is—like the monies my wife and I donate—totally at their own discretion. That’s the rich-guy philosophy in a nutshell: don’t tell us how to use our money; we’ll tell you.

Stephen and Tabitha King own three very large homes. Do they need three homes? Very few people can afford three homes. Do they need large homes? It's just the two of them. All of their children are adults. All three of those homes should be sold. Instead, Stephen and Tabitha King should make due with a three bedroom ranch or cape cod on a 2 acre plot of land. That way, they would have more of their money available to spend as I see fit.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
MudFrog:

quote:
The good samaritan - a wealthy man who stopped to help.
This is often brought up in any discussion about whether Jesus' gospel is primarily for the poor. Not least by The Blessed Margaret.

What is the evidence that he was wealthy? I know of none. Obviously he had some money, as did Jesus' group of disciples. But in the light of the parable of the widow's mite, it may well be that he gave all he had. Also unprovable, of course.

He owned a donkey and put a man up in an inn leaving money and promising more. He evidently had money to spare.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:

Stephen and Tabitha King own three very large homes. Do they need three homes? Very few people can afford three homes. Do they need large homes? It's just the two of them. All of their children are adults. All three of those homes should be sold. Instead, Stephen and Tabitha King should make due with a three bedroom ranch or cape cod on a 2 acre plot of land. That way, they would have more of their money available to spend as I see fit. [/QB]

You presumably own a home with about six rooms in it. Very few people across the planet can afford a room with 6 rooms.

What justifies you having a six roomed house when there are people living in the world in shacks with one 'room'.

You are evidently too rich.

it's all relative isn't it?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We do hear lots of inspirational stories about wealthy men and women who give generously.

If they gave generously enough, they wouldn't be wealthy any more. Jesus praised the widow who gave very little, because it was all she had, and not the rich man who gave a lot, bevause he could easily afford it.

Yes. See my prior post.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Whilst I agree that many wealthy capitalists have acquired their money immorally, it seems rather pessimistic to say that it's impossible to become rich through legitimate means.

Sure. Just very very difficult, according to Jesus.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
He owned a donkey and put a man up in an inn leaving money and promising more. He evidently had money to spare.

We don't know that. We don't know if the money he used to put the injured man up was all he had, or only an insignificant fraction or "plenty to spare". (And of course, it's a parable-- so we're debating a hypothetical). Jesus doesn't tell us what proportion of his assets that represents. I think that's deliberate. The point is not that the Samaritan gave 1% or 10% or 90% of his assets to serve the other. The point, rather, is that he gave what was needed. When transport was needed, he gave up his donkey. When a bed was needed, he paid for a room. Everything he had was on the table-- available to be used in the service of others.

That I think is the point.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
He owned a donkey and put a man up in an inn leaving money and promising more. He evidently had money to spare.
We don't know that... The point is not that the Samaritan gave 1% or 10% or 90% of his assets to serve the other. The point, rather, is that he gave what was needed. When transport was needed, he gave up his donkey. When a bed was needed, he paid for a room. Everything he had was on the table-- available to be used in the service of others.

That I think is the point.

(Joseph and Mary had a donkey (owned or borrowed, who knows), I've never heard claim they were rich.)

One might say the point was that he noticed and responded, rather than noticed and avoided. The extent of the response was perhaps unusual, but no one else offered to help wash the wounds or inquire where his family lived so they could be sent for, or any other help even if less than what the Samaritan did.

But also it doesn't fit the "inspiring stories" bill because it's an ancient story and probably not real people. (Although that would put an interesting twist on the story if Jesus was reminding folks of a real event that had recently been in the news.)

As to rich being admired for giving money that doesn't cost them any loss of pleasures, most churches I know prefer the rich man's .5% to the widow's mite because their focus is the budget.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

As to rich being admired for giving money that doesn't cost them any loss of pleasures, most churches I know prefer the rich man's .5% to the widow's mite because their focus is the budget.

You can say that again!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Joseph and Mary had a donkey (owned or borrowed, who knows), I've never heard claim they were rich.)

I read somewhere that Joseph would have been quite wealthy. The job 'techton;' is usually translated as 'carpenter' but apparently referred to a highly skilled profession that would have put him in the upper middle class.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Joseph and Mary had a donkey (owned or borrowed, who knows), I've never heard claim they were rich.)

I don't think the donkey is biblical, I suppose
it's sort of like the three wise men.

But because of the apocryphal donkey, and that since Joseph was a skilled workman, and that Jesus could read (and write?), and obviously had been educated in the scriptures, I have heard it proclaimed (once) from the pulpit that these things "prove" that Jesus was middle class and therefore was more privileged than others of his time and place.

Parts of the idea are interesting, but usually such ideas are trotted out to support political opinions I cannot support.

But faith stories about how God made someone rich turn my stomach. If you want stories of rich people who became faithful, there are saints in every generation.

Con Evos with stories of rich, faithful Christians seem to forget that Jesus said it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. That really means impossible.

I have never heard a sermon on that line which doesn't spend the time trying to say that Jesus really means the exact opposite! That makes wealthy people with portfolios much more comfortable.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Jesus praised the widow who gave very little, because it was all she had, and not the rich man who gave a lot, bevause he could easily afford it.

But the most intriguing part of the story of the widow's coins is literally the next sentence out of Jesus' mouth ( text ) -- the Temple (the support for which the widow's offering was made) will be completely destroyed. The futility of the widow's sacrificial gift is at least as important to the story as the gift itself. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Joseph and Mary had a donkey (owned or borrowed, who knows), I've never heard claim they were rich.)
I read somewhere that Joseph would have been quite wealthy. The job 'techton;' is usually translated as 'carpenter' but apparently referred to a highly skilled profession that would have put him in the upper middle class.

Hmm. And I'd heard the very opposite: that tekton (I didn't remember the word) meant a general laborer, and thus unskilled. New Advent says tekton was generally a mechanic and specifically usually a carpenter. At least it is pretty clear that Jesus had gotten a decent education in reading Hebrew scripture. Whether that was an opportunity all Jewish boys had without some scratch I'm not sure.

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
You are evidently too rich.

it's all relative isn't it?

You didn't direct this at me, but I'll respond. I think this is the way people think generally:

Sure I have lots of money and things, but so-and-so has more than me, so I'm actually about average in comparison. I understand that people who are defined statistically as upper class and rich, usually consider themselves middle class.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

Stephen and Tabitha King own three very large homes. Do they need three homes? Very few people can afford three homes. Do they need large homes? It's just the two of them. All of their children are adults. All three of those homes should be sold. Instead, Stephen and Tabitha King should make due with a three bedroom ranch or cape cod on a 2 acre plot of land. That way, they would have more of their money available to spend as I see fit.
You presumably own a home with about six rooms in it. Very few people across the planet can afford a room with 6 rooms.

What justifies you having a six roomed house when there are people living in the world in shacks with one 'room'.

You are evidently too rich.

it's all relative isn't it? [/QB]

I'm just judging Stephen in the same manner in which he judged.

Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Joseph and Mary had a donkey (owned or borrowed, who knows), I've never heard claim they were rich.)
I read somewhere that Joseph would have been quite wealthy. The job 'techton;' is usually translated as 'carpenter' but apparently referred to a highly skilled profession that would have put him in the upper middle class.
Hmm. And I'd heard the very opposite: that tekton (I didn't remember the word) meant a general laborer, and thus unskilled. New Advent says tekton was generally a mechanic and specifically usually a carpenter. At least it is pretty clear that Jesus had gotten a decent education in reading Hebrew scripture. Whether that was an opportunity all Jewish boys had without some scratch I'm not sure.

I can't remember the details, but J & M are recorded as offering a dove (I think) as a sacrifice in the Temple, which was the alternative offering allowed to the poor who couldn't afford whatever the standard offering was.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Joseph and Mary had a donkey (owned or borrowed, who knows), I've never heard claim they were rich.)

But because of the apocryphal donkey, and that since Joseph was a skilled workman, and that Jesus could read (and write?), and obviously had been educated in the scriptures, I have heard it proclaimed (once) from the pulpit that these things "prove" that Jesus was middle class and therefore was more privileged than others of his time and place.

Parts of the idea are interesting, but usually such ideas are trotted out to support political opinions I cannot support.

Both the "Samaritan as rich" and the "Joseph as rich" stories strike me as opportunistic eisegesis. I'm not aware of any reliable commentators who make that assessment, which, has been pointed out, is contradicted by other details in the Mary/Joseph story at least.

Like the old "eye of a needle= a city gate" myth, I think it's the sort of thing we make up to help us navigate our discomfort re: Jesus really rather pointed comments re: wealth.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Tidying up a tad--

There is no donkey in the text, of course. The offering they gave was the poor person's alternative to a lamb--that is, two doves or pigeons. Whether a Jewish boy got an education probably depended on how able his parents were to spare him from work--basic synagogue instruction would have been free, I believe. (distance from the synagogue would also matter, I suppose)
A tekton was a craftsman of some sort--my undestanding is a cross between a carpenter and a small scale builder--but that's just something I heard, I could be wrong. Still, under no circumstances would a small tradesman count as upper class. I suspect what we're looking at is "respectable local family with too many children from a backwater hamlet in a tiny country." In other words, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" And if Joseph died during Jesus' youth, you can add "oldest son trying to keep the family afloat and help Mom out with the younger ones."

Rather like a lot of us, I suppose.

Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :

quote:
...eisegesis...

Useful word! I'd come across it before, but had forgotten it. Had to look it up to confirm its meaning, but, as I thought, it means "reading your own opinions into a text". Thanks for the reminder - now stored in my mental dictionary for future use.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The point, rather, is that he gave what was needed. When transport was needed, he gave up his donkey. When a bed was needed, he paid for a room. Everything he had was on the table-- available to be used in the service of others.

That may or may not be the point, but if none of us has anything - as it would seem God wants - then how are we going to be able to provide for the needs of others when those needs arise? Where is the charity to come from if we're all poor?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The point, rather, is that he gave what was needed. When transport was needed, he gave up his donkey. When a bed was needed, he paid for a room. Everything he had was on the table-- available to be used in the service of others.
That may or may not be the point, but if none of us has anything - as it would seem God wants - then how are we going to be able to provide for the needs of others when those needs arise? Where is the charity to come from if we're all poor?

If all of us were to think like the Samaritan-- that nothing I have is mine but all of it is "on the table"-- available to be used by God however he leads-- the world would be a very different place.

Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :

The point is that obedience to the Commandments (summarized in: love God with all your strength and love your fellowman as yourself) leads to blessings (Deut 29), a teaching reiterated by Jesus:

28 Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.” 29 And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.” Luke 18

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:

quote:
...eisegesis...
Useful word! I'd come across it before, but had forgotten it. Had to look it up to confirm its meaning, but, as I thought, it means "reading your own opinions into a text".

Absolutely. However, in actual usage, it means something more like, "reading the text differently than I do..."

--Tom Clune

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Jesus praised the widow who gave very little, because it was all she had,...
But the most intriguing part of the story of the widow's coins is literally the next sentence out of Jesus' mouth - the Temple (the support for which the widow's offering was made) will be completely destroyed. The futility of the widow's sacrificial gift is at least as important to the story as the gift itself. Or so ISTM.

Yikes, I never thought about that!

Ye old, do you really know what your gift is supporting and is it really consistent with God's plans? But still, the attitude of her heart was probably God-valued, even if she was mislead by the "give us all your money" folks of the day.

(And, sorry about Mary's donkey, folks; too many pretty Christmas cards, not enough checking the text.)

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Con Evos with stories of rich, faithful Christians seem to forget that Jesus said it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. That really means impossible.

I have never heard a sermon on that line which doesn't spend the time trying to say that Jesus really means the exact opposite! That makes wealthy people with portfolios much more comfortable.

Tee hee, you mean like those claims the camel-eye-of-needle story means of course rich people can enter heaven, the camel just had to get down on his knees to pass thru the supposed gate, rich people just have to recite an occasional prayer and all is eternally well, no life change needed? (Give the minimum wage maid a paid sick day off? ya gotta be kidding).

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
if none of us has anything - as it would seem God wants - then how are we going to be able to provide for the needs of others when those needs arise? Where is the charity to come from if we're all poor?

None of us having anything is perfectly consistent with nobody being in need, and even with caring for the poor, if property is held in common. As bookplates of monks and nuns would read, not "property of" but only "ad usum"-- for the use of. Fathers of the church urged this social structure continually. While socialism apparently doesn't work in the world at large, due to sin, the Kingdom of Heaven is another matter; and monasticism proves that in intentional communities, it can work very well and for long periods.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

The Kingdom of Heaven as a monastic community? Wow, that really makes me want to be Christian.

Not.

Why is God such a fucking downer all the time?

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The Kingdom of Heaven as a monastic community? Wow, that really makes me want to be Christian.

Does me, and gives me equal parts of hope and despair.

Heaven? Eternal music transcending that of Bach performed by angelic choirs.

Hell? The same.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The Kingdom of Heaven as a monastic community? Wow, that really makes me want to be Christian.

Not.

Why is God such a fucking downer all the time?

Not God, just people's conceptions of God. I figure God made so much sex -- the birds and bees do it, even the flowers -- you bet there's sex in heaven, or whatever earthy sex is a pale reflection of.

Differences in wealth, however, I don't expect to see. That is, differences such as you have a wealth of talent on graphic arts, I have a wealth in music, someone else in storytelling, yes; but not the kinds of accumulations of wealth we have here.

If the lilies of the field thing is to be taken seriously, maybe intentional accumulation of wealth is proof you "don't get it"?

Not that I know how to measure what is "too much" accumulation. I have a friend who is "wealthy" by world standards if you look at raw dollars -- she has a job or two, owns a car and a cell phone. Rich lady!? But she is regularly homeless because her income is less than the rent for one small room in a house shared with strangers. Her car is her transportation to her jobs and her place to sleep. In this country it's illegal to build a bamboo hut in a field and live there tax free.

Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
If all of us were to think like the Samaritan-- that nothing I have is mine but all of it is "on the table"-- available to be used by God however he leads-- the world would be a very different place.

No, it wouldn't - that's the standard excuse used by greedy, selfish, rich bastards who pretend to be Christians: "I know I own five mansions on three continents, a fleet of powerful cars, a private jet, and employ 30 servants, but it's all held in trust for the Lord to use as He sees fit!" What a load of bollocks.

[ 21. May 2012, 11:13: Message edited by: Steve H ]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
If all of us were to think like the Samaritan-- that nothing I have is mine but all of it is "on the table"-- available to be used by God however he leads-- the world would be a very different place.
No, it wouldn't - that's the standard excuse used by greedy, selfish, rich bastards who pretend to be Christians: "I know I own five mansions on three continents, a fleet of powerful cars, a private jet, and employ 30 servants, but it's all held in trust for the Lord to use as He sees fit!" What a load of bollocks.

I agree-- but that's not really "thinking like the Samaritan", is it? Because he didn't just say "oh, yeah, it's all God's" and then go ahead and use it as he saw fit. He really did put it all on the table-- making all of his resources available to serve a stranger in need.

Most of us are better at talking a good game than we are actually living out the truth of the gospel.

Posted by Waterchaser (# 11005) on :

Indeed. Plus I am sure Christians in the west who own a house, car, computer and phone etc as a group own a far more significant proportion of the world's wealth in total than those with five mansions and a private jet.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
Indeed. Plus I am sure Christians in the west who own a house, car, computer and phone etc as a group own a far more significant proportion of the world's wealth in total than those with five mansions and a private jet.

Yeah, I've noticed we (and by "we" I mean "me") tend to always compare ourselves upward, never downward, when defining "rich". As long as there's a few Warren Buffets and Bill Gates around we can think of ourselves as "middle class" because we don't have anywhere near their wealth. Once you travel to the developing world-- or even our own inner-city and rural communities-- it becomes increasingly harder to maintain that fiction, which is probably why we're far more comfortable in the suburbs.

Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :

Here're are some good examples of rich persons who have had experiences with the Gospel worth sharing.

The Pastor of the church I attended in London decided to be very literal in his interpretation of the Bible. He sold all he had, gave the proceeds to the poor and began to work in the inner city. Soon he had brought several people to the Lord and they formed a house church. The church bought him a house... which he promptly sold again, disposing of the proceeds as before! Now the church has rented a house for him, and pays for its rent every month!

A few months ago, this person came to our church. What is not mentioned in the story is that his father offered him a large sum of money to come back to Hinduism and threatened to cut him out of his will if he refused. His story is the exact same one of many others in Asia: from rich backgrounds, of priestly origin, and (this is very important), AND very passionate about seeking God. They remind me of Paul, zealous for Judaism (which many of the Pharisees were not) and active about stamping out heretical movements. Jay Smith records debates with sincere Muslim religious leaders who later became friends. His site is worth visiting.

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
On another thread, SvitlanaV2 said

quote:
And the clergy love to use stories about poor but faithful/positive people (usually in the developing world) in their sermons. Wealthy men and women don't appear quite so often.
That got me thinking, what inspiring faith stories have I heard from the pulpit? One came immediately to mind, a woman who was financially wealthy but bedridden -- I've forgotten or never really know what, basically bedridden and in pain and yet positive in attitude for several years until she died, was periodically spoken of to us as an example of faith, but that was really a story of poverty even though of health rather than of money.

In other circles I've heard faith stories of the prosperity kind, "God gave me an idea for a business and it made me well off, yea God," but that's more likely "personal testimony" than pulpit chosen example of persistent faith for us to admire and imitate.

What kinds of "faith stories" inspiring to others to help them value God and trust God have you heard that have a rich person instead of a poor person as the topic? Is it harder for a rich person to be an living inspiration to others by the example of their life?

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The Pastor of the church I attended in London decided to be very literal in his interpretation of the Bible. He sold all he had, gave the proceeds to the poor and began to work in the inner city. Soon he had brought several people to the Lord and they formed a house church. The church bought him a house... which he promptly sold again,...

I often wonder when I hear stories like this, about the logistics. If I were to sell everything and give it all to the poor -- I dream of paying for life-changing medical operations or dentistry people need, career-oriented schooling that would open doors, transportation to visit family members in prison, so many needs --

if you sell it all and give away the proceeds, where do you sleep that night, how do you find food to eat the next morning? I hear these stories but I never hear the logistics of survival with nothing.

I think if I gave everything away I'd be dead in a few days, I don't know how to live without money or a place to sleep. Neither do the working poor who live in their car because it's a lot safer than living on the sidewalk, and who sometimes miss a meal because there's no money for food (and no place to cook it).

Even the working poor sometimes have too much stuff, pouring money into storage rooms to store stuff. Too many of us find "security" or "love" or something in stuff that is actually costing us (time, money, distraction from real life, costing us lots. Yes I speak of myself, too much stuff for wrong reasons!).

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The Kingdom of Heaven as a monastic community? Wow, that really makes me want to be Christian.

Not.

Why is God such a fucking downer all the time?

You sound like Tyrion on Game of Thrones (TV): "Why are all the gods such vicious cunts? Where's the God of Tits and Wine?"

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

A Christian organisation in Holland, acknowledging that this rule isn't realistic for everyone, tried to offer a 'light' form: suggesting you try to reduce your consumption of meat, paper and energy.

This isn't meant as a form of substitution or cop-out, and I guess you still might need to answer for not following Jesus' rule, but I like it.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
You sound like Tyrion on Game of Thrones (TV): "Why are all the gods such vicious cunts? Where's the God of Tits and Wine?"

Sounds good to me! [Big Grin]

Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :

You can ask Euty about the man, we went to the same church. Man, he was incorrigible, totally irresponsible! [Smile]

and we loved him, bigtime!

He drove his car till it ran out of gas and told his family God would provide. It was embarassing the number of collisions in the dark between people running up to the car when they thought no one was watching to tank it up with a can!!!

A high caste villager made it part of his routine to dump garbage on a convert, a widow, everytimeshe passed his house. He roused up the village to beat and chase away itinerant evangelists whenever they showed up.

One day he fell sick, and the doctors gave him a month to live. His family turned him out of the house! The widow showed up and took him in. She gave him a pallet to sleep on outside her hut. She prayed for him everyday. After a while, he went back to the doctors and they told him he had no traces of his sickness.

Today he travels from village to village, sharing the Gospel.

Oh yes, he often gets beaten and chased away...

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The Pastor of the church I attended in London decided to be very literal in his interpretation of the Bible. He sold all he had, gave the proceeds to the poor and began to work in the inner city. Soon he had brought several people to the Lord and they formed a house church. The church bought him a house... which he promptly sold again,...
I often wonder when I hear stories like this, about the logistics. If I were to sell everything and give it all to the poor -- I dream of paying for life-changing medical operations or dentistry people need, career-oriented schooling that would open doors, transportation to visit family members in prison, so many needs --

if you sell it all and give away the proceeds, where do you sleep that night, how do you find food to eat the next morning? I hear these stories but I never hear the logistics of survival with nothing.

I think if I gave everything away I'd be dead in a few days, I don't know how to live without money or a place to sleep. Neither do the working poor who live in their car because it's a lot safer than living on the sidewalk, and who sometimes miss a meal because there's no money for food (and no place to cook it).

Even the working poor sometimes have too much stuff, pouring money into storage rooms to store stuff. Too many of us find "security" or "love" or something in stuff that is actually costing us (time, money, distraction from real life, costing us lots. Yes I speak of myself, too much stuff for wrong reasons!).

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