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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... Or, in an era in which former seemingly self-evident rules of modesty have pretty much disappeared, are there still principles involved which go beyond the basic axiom of “Consider other people”?

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Originally posted by OliviaG:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... Or, in an era in which former seemingly self-evident rules of modesty have pretty much disappeared, are there still principles involved which go beyond the basic axiom of “Consider other people”?

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Are we talking about public behaviour or behaviour in the home? OliviaG

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Kaplan Corday: Home

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But answering the doorbell.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
When you have small children, modesty etc goes out of the window. Eg: the smallest Blackling, aged 20 months, has recently taken to crashing into the en suite whilst I'm having a pee, grabbing hold of the toilet and sticking his head over the edge (so much so that I have to watch where my...er...'stream' goes) and pointing and shouting "Wee wee!"
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
After 17 years of marriage I can confidently say that if I ever saw my husband on the toilet, or he saw me in the same situation, the marriage would be OVER. Those are my boundaries, not his. But I have managed to maintain them over the aforementioned 17 years while raising two children (now 12 and 14) in a single-bathroom house.

We all have our priorities. For practical reasons, due to the single bathroom, we have all agreed to treat the shower curtain as if it were a bathroom door so that one person may use the toilet while another is getting a shower, but no-one is ever allowed to catch a glimpse of me engaged in that activity nor, since the days of potty-training my children, do I ever wish to see another member of the household in that state.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Mum often used to come and sit on the loo while I was in the bath and have a chat, and vice verca.

I was the same with my boys - until puberty hit of course, then the bathroom door lock was employed.

I remember one day I was in the bath and my 4 year old came in for a wee and said "Mummy, you have no willy?" I said "No love, girls and ladies don't have them" He replied "Never mind, I buy you one from Tesco"



We have three bathrooms now, so any amount of privacy is possible.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I agree that there should be limits as a matter of simple respect, and the list in the OP sounds about right.

My mother used to keep finding excuses to come into the bathroom or else to wander around naked in the house when we would see her. Also to strike up conversations about personal things. I suppose she thought it would help us to not be embarrassed but I remember it used to make me feel really awful - as it did my father, so I guess I take after him. I'm not sure when a sense of personal embarrassment develops, but mine goes back as far as I can remember, certainly to well before school age.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
I wonder, if parents wander around naked, might a child find nakedness less of a sexual stimulus as an adult?

In my own family experience, most of the list in the op were observed as courtesies. We helped each other with spots.

And thank you for 'skerrick', a new word to me.
 

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Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :
 
at home? my boundaries are fairly lax. with husband.. pretty much no boundaries other than not doing anything stinky in a poorly ventilated space when the other person is there. My husband doesn't like seeing me perform certain personal hygene tasks, and so out of respect for him I won't do them when he's around, but on my end I don't care. the tasks we are talking about are not the most obvious. things like plucking hairs.

with the kids, there are a few more boundaries, particularly when we are talking about opposite sex child/parent. but even there, it's fairly loose. we all tend to leave the door open to the bathroom, and hold conversations. DH will cover the most esential area when my daughter is around, but not much more than that. DS is now going through puberty and has become generally more private (not just about these things, but EVERYTHING). Even so, he will walk around in his undies and nothing else. I have changed before while he was in the room (but not looking at me.. focused on the computer). I'll warn him "I"m changing, don't look". the set up of the room is such that one would have to go out of one's way to look from the computer to my changing area.

so yeah, we're fairly open about all of this. not to the point of walking around the house completely nude where an opposite sex family member (other than spouse) will see, though.

I'm trying to train the kids to knock before walking into my bedroom. that room serves as the computer room, and we also often watch TV in there instead of the family room, so it feels a bit like grand central station sometimes. we rarely shut the door, but I'm trying to teach them that if the door IS closed, it's polite to knock. so there are certain marital moments we do NOT want the kids to see (nor do they want to see!!)

does a more open approach to nudity in the home translate into less sexual association with nudity elsewhere? perhaps somewhat in truly non-sexual scenarios, but generally I think that it doesn't seem to correlate. because seeing your parent/child almost nude is NOT the same as seeing an attractive member of the opposite sex to whom you are not related nude. two different reactions. it may, however, translate into not getting overly worked up about nudity where the other person is NOT an object of potential sexual desire.
 

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Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :
 
My parents were both quite bohemian for their time and generation, and used to sunbathe nude in the garden, and on designated naturist beaches and this never bothered me. Although, personally, I don't and wouldn't do this.

I can remember my mother doing the ironing in the garden in the nude one hot summer's day ("too nice to be indoors"), and the lady next door popping round to borrow something, and her eyes nearly popping out of her head as she caught sight of my mother. I let the neighbour in and led her into the garden, not thinking that she would find it embarrassing, as I considered what my mother was doing to be fairly "normal" - as I say I was very used to my parents' eccentric and bohemian ways.

My father used to fart and belch quite openly at home and in the car - much to my mother's disgust (and mine!), but I never saw either of my parents on the toilet or in the bath or shower. And when I was toilet-trained, and old enough to use the toilet by myself as a child, the rule was always "close and lock the door, we don't want to know/hear what you're doing in there!"

[ 15. May 2012, 15:13: Message edited by: Aggie ]
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 
I always used to knock before walking into my son's bedroom, from when he was about 4, so he understood about private space.

Adults can make their own decisions but I think it's very important to respect a child's boundaries and not impose anything that makes them uncomfortable.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
After 17 years of marriage I can confidently say that if I ever saw my husband on the toilet, or he saw me in the same situation, the marriage would be OVER.

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Or, in an era in which former seemingly self-evident rules of modesty have pretty much disappeared, are there still principles involved which go beyond the basic axiom of “Consider other people”?

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Originally posted by PeteC:
Nudity happens. If caught in that state, shrug and carry on. Or titter loudly, as you may wish. Nuns taught me the concept of "custody of the eyes" and I find this useful, even today.

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
... So people view toenails differently here, as a much more private thing, and I suppose cutting toenails in the company of friends might not be viewed so casually by most as it is by me.

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See, I don't think the actual clipping of the (toe)nails is icky. It's the fact that the clippings sometimes fly in random directions that is problematic. It seems reasonable to clip where you can pick up all your clippings or where they don't matter -- at home, that might mean the bathroom or the back yard. And to do it at a distance from others. Ditto for nail filing - who wants pulverized nails all over their clothes or furniture? OliviaG
 

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Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :
 
Around wife (as newlyweds), I doubt there will be much clothing in evidence. Showers may become a team sport as well. Toilet time, remains ever private.

With kids over the age of two, I foresee clothing at all times, except when I'm in the bathroom or my bedroom. I will not allow my child to bust into the bathroom, peer down into the toilet, and announce that I'm urinating. I won't let him/her do it to my wife, either. I just don't like that very much; toilet time is not a spectator sport.

I will also institute the rule my family had when we were children: Upon coming to a closed door, knock. If no answer, you may enter. However, if the door is locked, go away and leave it alone until later. Exceptions include someone dying or a house fire, but not announcements of A hit B because B called A a name. Those can be dealt with later.

I will respect my children's rooms, and their closed doors, unless I think they're doing drugs or something really bad in there. Eminent domain, and all that. But I will knock on their doors before entering, and if they say no then I can only think of a few instances when I would push the issue.

I will teach my children to respect each others' rooms, too. A cannot go and borrow a sweater from B's closet without first asking; B cannot intrude on A's study time. Et cetera.

I'm with a few other posters in that I think that "bathroom noises and smells belong in the bathroom". I do know that sometimes tummies don't like what was eaten earlier and decide to protest, and I'm not going to force a kid to sit in the bathroom all evening just because of that.

Nail clipping and filing and pimple-popping don't bother me.

You know, it boils down to common respect: I respect my spouse and kids enough to not invade their privacy, and I expect the same of them (knowing that the kids will have to learn that trait).
 

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Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 
There's nudity, personal attendance to bodily functions and manners.

Nudity with family, for example in a hotel room with all members? Turn and face the wall. On the beach, face away from people. It is simply polite to do this. Don't fart.

Defecating? Do it in private, not just for the smell but also for the grand farting sound that may be an accompaniment to making a your mess. Unless it is a two hole outhouse, and someone you actually want to share such intimacies with invites you.

Urinating? Well I guess there's a certain male bonding and intimacy that results from peeing into the bushes or off a cliff together, while chatting, about sports and other manly things.

[oh no!]
There's a reality TV show in here somewhere.

[/oh no!]
 

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Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :
 

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Originally posted by no_prophet:
Urinating? Well I guess there's a certain male bonding and intimacy that results from peeing into the bushes or off a cliff together, while chatting, about sports and other manly things

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
After 17 years of marriage I can confidently say that if I ever saw my husband on the toilet, or he saw me in the same situation, the marriage would be OVER.

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Don't be so sure. My father has Parkinson's disease, and I doubt very much that at the 17-year mark my mother had any idea she'd be doing some of the things she does for him now after over 50 years of marriage.

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Originally posted by no_prophet:
Urinating? Well I guess there's a certain male bonding and intimacy that results from peeing into the bushes or off a cliff together, while chatting, about sports and other manly things.

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Originally posted by Mockingale:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Or, in an era in which former seemingly self-evident rules of modesty have pretty much disappeared, are there still principles involved which go beyond the basic axiom of “Consider other people”?

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I've noticed a pattern. It seems that you have some anecdote about someone you know or read about acting in a troublesome manner. You then extrapolate from that that all liberal Christians have no sense of sexual morality, or that "former rules of modesty have pretty much disappeared."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't see very many nude people marching around in public with their bits flapping in the breeze. Why do a few oddballs represent a societal trend?

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... things such as "ladylike" behaviour, dress and conversation, and things that were not mentioned in public, or mixed company.

For example, former generations not only did not discuss pregnancy openly as we (thank Heaven) can do, but the actual word "pregnancy" was verboten.

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
I suspect the norms you miss were only norms in certain places among certain people. Not only was "pregnancy" not verboten in my family, we used proper terms to talk about body parts and functions.

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Originally posted by Mockingale:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't see very many nude people marching around in public with their bits flapping in the breeze.

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I guess I was thinking not so much of nudity in the street, which does indeed remain fairly rare (especially in cold climates), but of things such as "ladylike" behaviour, dress and conversation, and things that were not mentioned in public, or mixed company.

For example, former generations not only did not discuss pregnancy openly as we (thank Heaven) can do, but the actual word "pregnancy" was verboten.

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Originally posted by Padre Joshua:

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Originally posted by no_prophet:
Urinating? Well I guess there's a certain male bonding and intimacy that results from peeing into the bushes or off a cliff together, while chatting, about sports and other manly things

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Well it may be cultural thing, because here the Man Code is that one never, ever talks to the other guys in the public restroom unless it's at the sink. And then one makes eye contact through the mirror, not directly. Also, it has to be small talk.

Ladies, on the other hand, seem to go to the restroom so they can talk freely, and they seem to engage with strangers quite freely and openly while sitting on the toilet, washing hands, or whatever else they do in there. Of course, I've never been in a ladies room while ladies were present (having only been sent to clean the restrooms when no one else was present), so I could be a bit off. All I have is anecdotal evidence.

ETA: I said it was a pond thing, then realized you're in Canada.

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
See, I don't think the actual clipping of the (toe)nails is icky. It's the fact that the clippings sometimes fly in random directions that is problematic. OliviaG

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Nah - it's when they sit there, clip the nail, then eat the clippings that lines need to be drawn!



Yes - I speak from experience!

[ 16. May 2012, 07:01: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

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Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 
These things are all to do with not exerting your views and practices to the reasonable distress of others. Norms change dramatically over fairly short time spans.

If you go to an old Georgian house where they have preserved the original furniture, you will often see the original closets and commodes in the dining room. If you wanted to relieve yourself during the meal you did so, and carried right on talking to everyone else. It was a natural function that obviously didn't worry anyone. Skip forward a few decades to the Victorian period and the invention of water closets and the situation changes dramatically.

In the classical Roman era, toilets were only ever communal affairs. Private ones didn't exist.
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
Honestly, though, I don't understand why you feel the need for any 'rules' for others beyond "Consider other people".

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You make all the rules you want for your house, and I'll consider visiting. But be aware in my house we don't wear shoes nor sleeved shirts.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
See, I don't think the actual clipping of the (toe)nails is icky. It's the fact that the clippings sometimes fly in random directions that is problematic. OliviaG

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Nah - it's when they sit there, clip the nail, then eat the clippings that lines need to be drawn!



Yes - I speak from experience!

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Eat the clippings? Hell, my two youngest trimmed their toenails with their teeth. Or rather the youngest did, until he started getting ingrown toenails from biting them too short. Whether second-youngest still does, I do not know. And being that he's 21, I do not wish to know.
 

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Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
I'm interested to know whether you folks here think childbirth fits into this discussion at all. In many cultures and in the past in my own one it's considered very much a women only thing but nowadays fathers are often present (I'm speaking from a UK perspective).

I'm pretty relaxed about nakedness at home and bodily functions, more so than my husband. He was with me when I gave birth to both our children but I didn't particularly want him watching the 'action' but rather up by my head with me. (He'd probably have fainted anyway if he had to watch!) Giving birth is after all a fairly undignified affair in many ways... I can imagine a guy might not quite look at that part of his partner's anatomy in quite the same way after seeing a baby arrive through it!
 

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