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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Modalism
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Over on another thread about the 'Word of Faith' and 'Signs and Wonders' movements, the subject of modalism came up several times. Some kind of modalism seems common in parts of charasmania and evangelical circles—but I'm not familiar enough with enough of them to understand just how common it is.
This interesting blog has what seem to me to be some clear ideas about modalism. In the thread mentioned at the start of this post, at least one poster claimed that Paul taught modalism and that Jesus himself implies it.
How can modalism be clarified for mere mortals like me? How can we be vigilant against it—and why?
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Modalists fail to really distinguish between the persons of the Trinity. In modalism, the Father isn't really distinct from the Son, rather the two are different modes or activities of the one Person of God. Modalists will, therefore, say things like "When God is creating the world, He is the Father. When God is saving the world, He is the Son. When He is sustaining the world, He is the Holy Ghost."
A slight variation of the modalist line is the heresy of patripassianism. This means "The Father suffers," and if there is no real distinction between the Father and the Son, then it could be said that the Father suffers with Jesus on the Cross.
Guarding against it is important because God is infinitely important for what He is, in Himself, and not merely what He does. We can guard against it by insisting that the Son is not the Father, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and so on. The catholic faith presumes that the Trinity revealed to us in God's salvific work in the world (the economic Trinity) actually reveals the truth of the inner life of God (the immanent Trinity). Modalists, on the other hand, propose that God's actions in the world do not really express who or what he is as God. They refuse to grant the Scriptures the status as actual truth.
[ 21. May 2012, 13:22: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Over on another thread about the 'Word of Faith' and 'Signs and Wonders' movements, the subject of modalism came up several times. Some kind of modalism seems common in parts of charasmania and evangelical circles—but I'm not familiar enough with enough of them to understand just how common it is.
This interesting blog has what seem to me to be some clear ideas about modalism. In the thread mentioned at the start of this post, at least one poster claimed that Paul taught modalism and that Jesus himself implies it.
How can modalism be clarified for mere mortals like me? How can we be vigilant against it—and why?
Is this what you mean by "Modalism"? No comments yet, because I need to understand what it is first (apart from a heresy)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
Its greatest heresy is that it denies the humanity of the Son.
Jesus was only "pretending" to be human in the Gospels if Modalism holds true.
Which is, of course, unbiblical.
[ 21. May 2012, 13:23: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's greatest heresy is that it denies the humanity of the Son.
Jesus was only "pretending" to be human in the Gospels if Modalism holds true.
That's gnositicism, not modalism.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Modalism is hardly confined to evangelicalism - one of the frequent manifestations is in formulations such as "Creator, redeemer and sanctifier", when used as a trinitarian formulation - which it usually is. Evangelicals are not usually responsible for that one.
I do think that the writer of that article has misunderstood the verse of "Be thou my vision". Surely that one is addressing first the son, then the father, then the holy spirit. It is internally trinitarian, though I guess open to misinterpretation.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
I think one of the reasons that the lighter end of evangelicalism tends to be prone to modalism is that they try to explain things simply. Too simply in this case.
I've heard the whole "water, ice, steam" analogy far too many times. Einstein got it right when he said "Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."
It's worth pointing out that the heavier end of evangelicalism (J.I. Packer, Don Carson et al) seem pretty good at avoiding modalism.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Over on another thread about the 'Word of Faith' and 'Signs and Wonders' movements, the subject of modalism came up several times. Some kind of modalism seems common in parts of charasmania and evangelical circles—but I'm not familiar enough with enough of them to understand just how common it is.
True, explicit modalism is found only within Oneness Pentecostalism, which is only a single denomination within the broader Pentecostal movement, and would be a very small % of evangelicalism as a whole.
More generally, I would say modalism is the heresy Christians of all types are most likely to unintentionally fall into simply because it's so hard to talk about the Trinity. Common analogies, such as the "water/ice/steam" or the 3 parts of an egg, etc. always error in some way, modalism most often.
IMHO, we just need to accept that. Our language always fails us, imagery certainly falls short. We're trying to explain the most transcendent of mysteries, we just don't have good ways to do that. And yet, for all it's shortcomings, the attempt to understand and speak of God and know something of God is a worthy effort.
I usually end up using the best imagery or explanation I can find to talk about God-- then giving out the disclaimers of all the ways that image/explanation errs.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's greatest heresy is that it denies the humanity of the Son.
Jesus was only "pretending" to be human in the Gospels if Modalism holds true.
That's gnositicism, not modalism.
Well, Docetism, to be precise; but there were plenty of Gnostics who held this view as well.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
It's tricky, I understand that. It's one thing to struggle to get it right, it's quite another to set out with the intention of getting it wrong or, more likely, arguing that it doesn't matter.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
It's tricky, I understand that. It's one thing to struggle to get it right, it's quite another to set out with the intention of getting it wrong or, more likely, arguing that it doesn't matter.
True. But I don't think "intentionally wrong" is all that rampant. Again, Oneness Pentecostals are the only group I know that is explicitly modalist. I guess to some degree I am arguing "it doesn't matter", because I think it's more important that we talk about God than it is that we get everything right. I don't think it is possible to talk about God w/o getting it wrong, but I don't want our fear to keep us from wondering, from talking, from sharing. For me it's enough to simply acknowledge the problem.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Wilfried
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# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Modalism is hardly confined to evangelicalism - one of the frequent manifestations is in formulations such as "Creator, redeemer, and sanctifier", when used as a trinitarian formulation - which it usually is. Evangelicals are not usually responsible for that one.
Is "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" necessarily modalist? Perhaps it's easier to misunderstand than the traditional formulation (or perhaps not, since some apparently misunderstand "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"). This statement doesn't strike me as on its face untrue, as God in three persons is indeed creator, redeemer, and sanctifier. This is a genuine question, as I've heard many object to this formulation, but I don't quite understand why.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Modalism is hardly confined to evangelicalism - one of the frequent manifestations is in formulations such as "Creator, redeemer, and sanctifier", when used as a trinitarian formulation - which it usually is. Evangelicals are not usually responsible for that one.
Is "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" necessarily modalist? Perhaps it's easier to misunderstand than the traditional formulation (or perhaps not, since some apparently misunderstand "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"). This statement doesn't strike me as on its face untrue, as God in three persons is indeed creator, redeemer, and sanctifier. This is a genuine question, as I've heard many object to this formulation, but I don't quite understand why.
If you're using "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" as a stand-in for "Father, Son, and Spirit" than it is explicitly modalist-- in fact, much more explicitly so than ice/steam/water and all the other awkward analogies. You are explicitly defining each member of the Trinity by a particular function/activity, and implicitly suggesting that the other members of the Trinity are not engaged in that function/activity-- that's the very definition of modalism.
otoh, as I indicated before, ANY discussion of the Trinity is going to be rife w/ these sorts of problematic trade-offs. We went to "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" because of the inherent problems with using gender-limited language for God. In so doing, we introduced another ancient problem. No doubt someone will come along with another formulation to correct that-- and we'll find ourselves with Docetism or adoptionism or some other heresy.
Again, I think the best you can do is choose your poison and then add the needed correction.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
When Andrew Walker's book about the UK restorationist or 'house church' movement came out in 1985 and I read it when it had to read within brown covers ( ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), I was miffed at his suggestion that we were 'nominally Trinitarian.'
I wanted to get hold of him and contend that we were no more nominally Trinitarian than anyone else and that we were thoroughly orthodox in that respect.
But then I started listening to the way people spoke and the way people prayed ...
And I began to realise that on a functional level at least, much of charismatic evangelicalism was almost theologically illiterate when it came to the Trinity.
Now, I would contend that at an 'official' level and at the level of theologians like Carson and Packer, evangelicalism (whether conservative, charismatic, 'open' or whatever else) is just as Trinitarian as any other Christian tradition one might mention.
But there is an overly Christocentric tendency - 'Me and Jesus' - in some evangelical circles and many charismatics seem to regard God the Holy Spirit as some kind of impersonal faith-force at worst or 'small p' person at best ...
It ain't always like that, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
Folks might rightly decry Modalism as a heresy.
It is no less a heresy than the Tritheism which is the only alternative. However this is accompanied by loud shouts of doctrinal orthodoxy and when pressed to explain precisely what the words mean the result is the "goldfish" scenario. Mouth open. Nothing coming out.
I suggest reading McQuarrie "Principles of Christian Theology" for starters.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Modalism is hardly confined to evangelicalism - one of the frequent manifestations is in formulations such as "Creator, redeemer, and sanctifier", when used as a trinitarian formulation - which it usually is. Evangelicals are not usually responsible for that one.
Is "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" necessarily modalist? Perhaps it's easier to misunderstand than the traditional formulation (or perhaps not, since some apparently misunderstand "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"). This statement doesn't strike me as on its face untrue, as God in three persons is indeed creator, redeemer, and sanctifier. This is a genuine question, as I've heard many object to this formulation, but I don't quite understand why.
Wilfried - I think cliffdweller has already answered the main point of this. Just to say that there is no objection to saying that God creates, redeems and sanctifies. It's the usage, when it replaces Father Son & Holy Spirit, which makes it modalist.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Folks might rightly decry Modalism as a heresy.
It is no less a heresy than the Tritheism which is the only alternative. However this is accompanied by loud shouts of doctrinal orthodoxy and when pressed to explain precisely what the words mean the result is the "goldfish" scenario. Mouth open. Nothing coming out.
I suggest reading McQuarrie "Principles of Christian Theology" for starters.
I don't see Tritheism as the only alternative. I think that frankly admitting that human language approximates ideas that are outside human experience is an option. The Godhead is the epitome of paradox: One God/Three Persons; three (and more) functions, but not divided among the Persons; we see the Godhead's effects on the world, but that doesn't show us Godhead's essence.
To me it's like a leap beyond contemporary physics. I don't have the math to understand even the most basic concepts. Some people in the world do. Then to get into the real nitty-gritty you need even more. A program I saw on Hawkings' latest foray into unified theory said it took his new assistant over a year to study and grasp the math to even begin to be a help on the physicist's new direction. And this is about observable, real world stuff. Me, I just about have grasped that an atom is not really a teeny-weeny solar system with planet electrons circling a nucleus in graceful elliptical orbits.
Talking about the Trinity gets us into metaphorical territory, and vocabulary to describe our areas of ignorance. And then there's via negativa, what the Trinity is not: One but not only One, Three but not totally separately Three. The Father is the Creator, but so is the Spirit that hovered over the waters, and so is the Word "through which all things were made". The Father redeems through begetting the Son, and the Spirit redeems by bringing the power of the Most High to Mary, and the Son redeems by living and dying in this world.
It's best to hold theses ideas humbly, lightly and in balance than try to nail down the ineffable, IMO.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
I take it that Jesus ( the 2nd Person of the Trinity) was sincere in reciting " Hear O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is ONE" in his daily devotions.?
Or should he have said "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is Three in One"?
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
Was it Karl Barth who posited the formulation that God is one essence eternally subsistent in three modes of being, Father Son and Holy Spirit?
What could be clearer......
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Modalism is hardly confined to evangelicalism - one of the frequent manifestations is in formulations such as "Creator, redeemer, and sanctifier", when used as a trinitarian formulation - which it usually is. Evangelicals are not usually responsible for that one.
Is "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" necessarily modalist? Perhaps it's easier to misunderstand than the traditional formulation (or perhaps not, since some apparently misunderstand "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"). This statement doesn't strike me as on its face untrue, as God in three persons is indeed creator, redeemer, and sanctifier. This is a genuine question, as I've heard many object to this formulation, but I don't quite understand why.
Wilfried - I think cliffdweller has already answered the main point of this. Just to say that there is no objection to saying that God creates, redeems and sanctifies. It's the usage, when it replaces Father Son & Holy Spirit, which makes it modalist.
Precisely!
And the very fact that Wilfried, in complete and genuine innocence, didn't see this, as I am sure is the case of many who use it and unwittingly subscribe to the modalist teaching that it expresses, suggests that there might well be something to the question that forms the title of this Limbo thread.
I'm not suggesting that we can't discuss these things again but I offer this thread for anybody who wants to see how these things have been thrashed out here in the past. The first two or three pages were a bit boring, and there was a fair amount of wilful obtuseness on the part of some people reading El Greco's posts, although English was not his first language. However, if you can endure past that, it does get interesting and discusses the matter in some depth.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Well, I think you'll find Ramarius that the Council of Nicea got there before Karl Barth did ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Gamaliel
But there is an overly Christocentric tendency - 'Me and Jesus' - in some evangelical circles
I have never really understood this objection. If the three persons of the Trinity all do all the same things, what difference does it make which one you concentrate on ? If one were doing the creating and another the redeeming etc, I could see the need to give them all attention so as not to miss anything out.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Well, all Three Persons of the Trinity act in unison, of course, but I tend to think it's polite and works best in 'economic' terms if we don't go 'Jesus, Jesus, Jesus' all the time or 'Spirit, Spirit, Spirit,' or 'Father, Father, Father ...'
It's hard to define but you recognise it when you hear it.
I can't be the only one whose teeth are set on edge by some of the slipshod language. One of the first things that struck me when I first attended an Orthodox service was how Trinitarian it all was. It was like the Nicene Creed set to chant.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
suggests that there might well be something to the question that forms the title of this Limbo thread.
Beware of quoting andreas/el greco with approbation in these matters. It has already been mentioned here on this thread, and even one of the Orthodox on the thread you cite were able to identify the opposite heresy being espoused by andreas: tritheism. So you may very well suggest that Western Trinitarian theology can slip into Unitarianism if not checked, but the Orthodox emphasis can easily slip into tritheism if not checked.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
The first two or three pages were a bit boring, and there was a fair amount of wilful obtuseness on the part of some people reading El Greco's posts, although English was not his first language. However, if you can endure past that, it does get interesting and discusses the matter in some depth.
Mmmmm. I'm not so sure about that wilful obtuseness bit. Again, beware of defending and siding with andreas: he did have a tendency to adopt a stance of "J'Accuse" as if his point was self-evident and already proved - and then to squeal when he was called on that style. (I had a lot of time for him, btw, so I am not simply trying to demonise him either).
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Folks might rightly decry Modalism as a heresy.
It is no less a heresy than the Tritheism which is the only alternative.
Talk about false dichotomies...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I take it that Jesus ( the 2nd Person of the Trinity) was sincere in reciting " Hear O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is ONE" in his daily devotions.?
Or should he have said "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is Three in One"?
Catholic Christians accept that the Lord Our God is One. We just don't think that's all there is to be said about the matter.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
What else is to be said?
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Oh, I do generally agree with you, Triple Tiara.
My point was that it was quite clear to anybody reading with charity that Andreas (who later changed his screen name to "El Greco", for those who weren't around back then) was using the word "unitarian" in a sense that reflects its plain, etymological, meaning, perhaps not realising the connotations inherent in the way that the word is usually used in English. However, not everybody read with charity, and accused him of making claims that he plainly didn't intend to make.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
What else is to be said?
If we are going to believe that Jesus really is God, then we have the beginnings of Trinitarian theology. Especially the divinity of Jesus implies that "God is One" is not all there is to be said. Trinitarian theology is not an attempt to qualify the unity of God, but an attempt to reconcile the accounts of Scripture with the unity of God.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I take it that Jesus ( the 2nd Person of the Trinity) was sincere in reciting " Hear O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is ONE" in his daily devotions.?
Or should he have said "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is Three in One"?
If you are really interested in what the Shema means, it is worth considering the various ways that it is translated. It is quite common in Jewish prayer books to translate it as something like: "Hear O Israel, Adonai is our God, Adonai alone." In the context of Deuteronomy, it seems more likely to be henetheistic than unitarian.
--Tom Clune
[ 21. May 2012, 21:51: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
So then (following Zach) is there a 'proper balance' to made in prayer? Do some people, as Gam suggests, overplay Jesus? Should there be a distinction in prayer life between God and Lord? Jesus is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord, God the Father is Lord?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think there may be. D. L. Sayers referred to some people's trinities as being "scalene," and that's certainly the case for me--my conception of the Father is way murkier than that of Jesus or the Spirit, and I tend to pray accordingly. But I figure God knows the reason and forgives me for it--and will remedy it in his own good time.
Still, it's good to be aware of imbalances, and to try not to inflict them on others (such as the congregation one might be caring for).
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's greatest heresy is that it denies the humanity of the Son.
Jesus was only "pretending" to be human in the Gospels if Modalism holds true.
That's gnositicism, not modalism.
Well, Docetism, to be precise; but there were plenty of Gnostics who held this view as well.
Both. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But I think it's the most damning of practical implications of Modalism.
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a theological scrapbook
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trouty
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# 13497
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Posted
I always wonder how people can throw terms like 'heresy' and 'heretic' around without feeling a bit of a tw@.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I always wonder how people can throw terms like 'heresy' and 'heretic' around without feeling a bit of a tw@.
That's mainly a middle of the road C of E attitude my dear. Because we know the truth we find it hard when others scream heresy. They do indeed look like twats.
Still. Doesn't stop others.
Not me of course. I just like to know what kind of heretic I'm being called at any given moment.
[ 22. May 2012, 13:52: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I always wonder how people can throw terms like 'heresy' and 'heretic' around without feeling a bit of a tw@.
Why, though? I think I would rather know if I was getting something major wrong. Heresy is reserved for major errors that distort key teachings. Sure, if people use it as some sort of insult it gets devalued, but it has real value if used properly.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I always wonder how people can throw terms like 'heresy' and 'heretic' around without feeling a bit of a tw@.
Depends on whether the ultimate authority is Scripture and Tradition or your personal experience. Personally, I am comforted by the idea that God is bigger than my experience.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Modalism is hardly confined to evangelicalism...
Within the CofE at any rate its more common in the liberal centre than among the evangelicals.
Years ago - in fact decades ago, I think I was still living in Brighton - someone or other said that the average MOTR Anglican was a semi-Pelagian modalist. I'm afraid its partly true.
I think theological orthodixy is more often met with at both ends of the Anglican candle than it is in the middle.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's greatest heresy is that it denies the humanity of the Son.
Jesus was only "pretending" to be human in the Gospels if Modalism holds true.
That's gnositicism, not modalism.
Aksherly its Docetism. Which could be considered a sort of Gnosticism. You can be modalist without being docetic.
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I always wonder how people can throw terms like 'heresy' and 'heretic' around without feeling a bit of a tw@.
You make it sound almost attractive. Us middle-aged fat gits rarely get to feel any kind of twat in a month of Sundays. (in the American sense of "twat" anyway. In our British use of the word all we have to do is look in a mirror)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
ken wrote: quote:
Years ago - in fact decades ago, I think I was still living in Brighton - someone or other said that the average MOTR Anglican was a semi-Pelagian modalist. I'm afraid its partly true.
I'm increasingly coming to the view that the MOTR is now more deist than theist. Perhaps it always was and I failed to notice it. I guess you can be a semi-pelagian or a pelagian modalist as well as being a deist, though I would need to think about that a bit more.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
And the very fact that Wilfried, in complete and genuine innocence, didn't see this, as I am sure is the case of many who use it and unwittingly subscribe to the modalist teaching that it expresses, suggests that there might well be something to the question that forms the title of this Limbo thread.
Its a long time since I looked at that thread!
I just re-read it. I'm no more impressed by what Andreas was saying I'm afraid. He seems to get bogged down in convoluted definitions of words without saying very much. And what he does say (or at least what is intelligible of it) seems, well, not very Orthodox. And the other Orthodox posters on the thread all more or less disagreed with him.
But its one of the few discussions on this site where I think there was genuine falure to communicate because of language. Andreas seems to have been thinking in Greek, and translating Greek words into English words (or Latin-pretending-to-be English words) like "nature" and "essence" and "substance" and "person". And the result was simply unintelligible in English. He seemed to be writing blatant self-contradictions. And then getting angry when we pointed it out. A very frustrating thread.
Posters with a traditional theological education (not including me) read those words in their technical theological sense - but that seemed to come out wrong as well.
To summarise the thread, not entirely unfairly I think:
Andreas: You protestants are unitarians because you believe X
Others: But we don't believe X we believe Y!
Andreas: That's what I said, you believe Z
Others: Who mentioned Z?
Repeat about seventeen times, then explode into a whinging match.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
The first two or three pages were a bit boring...
Nowhere near as boring as the last few pages I think, where most of it bogged down in a personal spat.
Anyway, I rather liked the first few pages, lot it is by me More serioulsy, I think the discussion does go off fast because of the mutual incomprehension between Andreas and everyone else posting.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
As with most official heresies, I think that this is something which is important for the church to get right, but less important at the individual level: I don't think anyone is going to lose their salvation because they were a modalist or a docetist or a dualist. As a matter of fact, you can have a diverting hour or so hunting heresies in 'Worship songs' (much less so in proper hymns, but some of them are heretical as well). "Turn your eyees upon Jesus", for example, is pure dualism.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Thanks to those who answered my question; I think I get the point, and I don't disagree.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
otoh, as I indicated before, ANY discussion of the Trinity is going to be rife w/ these sorts of problematic trade-offs. We went to "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" because of the inherent problems with using gender-limited language for God. In so doing, we introduced another ancient problem. No doubt someone will come along with another formulation to correct that-- and we'll find ourselves with Docetism or adoptionism or some other heresy.
Again, I think the best you can do is choose your poison and then add the needed correction.
I think this is sort of what I was getting at. "Creator, redeemer, sanctifier" doesn't strike me as on it's face worse, or more prone to heretical misunderstanding than "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Some apparently hear the latter with a modalist or tritheistic understanding. ISTM that what saves "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" is that it carries with it all the trinitarian debates that came along with it when it was first formulated, so we think we know what we mean when we say it.
Speaking of squiggle Andrew, or whatever he called himself at the time, I once had a run in with him in another trinitarian debate. I made some point, and then said something to effect that, at the end of the day, the Trinity is a mystery, and any attempt to grasp it in words was grasping at the ineffable, or some such. He jumped down my throat, saying that a proper understanding of the trinity was as clear as day for any right thinking person with proper theological understanding, and my resort to mystery was muddy thinking at best, heresy at worst. Good times.
I'm mostly an off and on lurker, so whatever happened to him?
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Thanks to those who answered my question; I think I get the point, and I don't disagree.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
otoh, as I indicated before, ANY discussion of the Trinity is going to be rife w/ these sorts of problematic trade-offs. We went to "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" because of the inherent problems with using gender-limited language for God. In so doing, we introduced another ancient problem. No doubt someone will come along with another formulation to correct that-- and we'll find ourselves with Docetism or adoptionism or some other heresy.
Again, I think the best you can do is choose your poison and then add the needed correction.
I think this is sort of what I was getting at. "Creator, redeemer, sanctifier" doesn't strike me as on it's face worse, or more prone to heretical misunderstanding than "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Some apparently hear the latter with a modalist or tritheistic understanding. ISTM that what saves "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" is that it carries with it all the trinitarian debates that came along with it when it was first formulated, so we think we know what we mean when we say it.
Just to clarify-- that's not my position. As I said, I do believe "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" is explicitly and necessarily modalist, at least as commonly used, and therefore "worse" or "more heretical" than "Father, Son & Spirit" which has both Scripture and tradition behind it. My point was that I just can't get that worked up about the issue, since we have so much trouble speaking in any length about the Trinity w/o veering into one heresy or another. That's where we agree-- the Trinity is a transcendent mystery that eludes precise description.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
Some elements of the Sabellian/Monarchian/Patripassian/Modalist/Arian/ Socinian/Unitarian tradition regard Christ as divine and some don't.
What tends to be common to all these movements is their emphasis on the Father as the primary name and identity of God.
The Oneness, or Jesus Only, strand in Pentecostalism is interesting because it regards Jesus as the essential expression of God.
There is a big penty church here in Melbourne which used to (don't know whether it still does) baptise members "In the name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, even the Lord Jesus Christ".
[ 23. May 2012, 01:57: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I'm mostly an off and on lurker, so whatever happened to him?
He decided that because St Gregory Palamas didn't know about Darwinian evolution therefore the whole of Christianity was nonsense and became a Dawkinsite before drifting away from the Ship.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As I said, I do believe "creator, redeemer, sanctifier" is explicitly and necessarily modalist, at least as commonly used, and therefore "worse" or "more heretical" than "Father, Son & Spirit" which has both Scripture and tradition behind it.
I think it is modalist if it used as the primary way of identifying the persons of the Trinity.
I think that there is a sense in which you can say that 'creator' can be properly used to identify the Father even though all three persons act in the act of creation. And ditto for 'redeemer' and 'sanctifier'. In a similar way, God is spirit and all three persons are 'spirit' yet 'Spirit' may be properly used to identify one of the persons. But I agree that there's a lot of potential for misunderstanding if it's used improperly or too often.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that there is a sense in which you can say that 'creator' can be properly used to identify the Father even though all three persons act in the act of creation. And ditto for 'redeemer' and 'sanctifier'. In a similar way, God is spirit and all three persons are 'spirit' yet 'Spirit' may be properly used to identify one of the persons. But I agree that there's a lot of potential for misunderstanding if it's used improperly or too often.
Yes. Many people will confuse "person" with "function", if all they hear is "creator, redeemer, sanctifier".
To me, a really important thing about the Trinity is the I-You relationship between the Son and the Father which we see in John's gospel (ch.17). God is love, because the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, and so too with the Holy Spirit and the other two divine persons.
It is not just that God does three different things, but rather that the divine persons totally and completely love one another and are so totally involved with one another that they are truly and ontologically one - for example: one omnipotence, not three warring wills. There is no distinction in where the Father, Son or Spirit is. There is no difference in what the Father, Son, or Spirit knows. There is no disagreement in what the Father, Son, and Spirit wills. And there is no conflict in what the Father, Son, or Spirit can do. That is a degree of unity beyond anything we have ever experienced. The Father, Son, and Spirit are perfectly attuned to one another. They are totally and infinitely transparent to one another (a corollary of omniscience - they know one another perfectly and totally - in human terms, there is zero privacy, just total and perfect intimacy of heart).
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I always wonder how people can throw terms like 'heresy' and 'heretic' around without feeling a bit of a tw@.
Depends on whether the ultimate authority is Scripture and Tradition or your personal experience. Personally, I am comforted by the idea that God is bigger than my experience.
No wonder Anglicans have such trouble pointing the finger. We believe in all three (Scripture, Tradition and Experience/Reason).
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Holy Smoke
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# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
...The Father, Son, and Spirit are perfectly attuned to one another. They are totally and infinitely transparent to one another (a corollary of omniscience - they know one another perfectly and totally - in human terms, there is zero privacy, just total and perfect intimacy of heart).
But there isn't a 'one another', that's tritheism, however close they are to each other. As soon as you start talking about relationships between the 'persons', and start using 'person' in its modern sense, instead of it meaning something like a 'face' of God, you are in effect 'dividing the substance' and creating three separate beings. The original model is semi-modalist - I think Macquarrie distinguishes permanent modalism (which that is) from temporary modalism, but he certainly sees polytheism as the greater danger.
The relationship between Jesus of the gospels and God the Father is between a human Jesus (who expresses divinity) and a divine God.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
No wonder Anglicans have such trouble pointing the finger. We believe in all three (Scripture, Tradition and Experience/Reason).
What, every one of us? I believe in reason. You can't logically believe in all three. One has to be supreme.
[ 23. May 2012, 20:27: Message edited by: Steve H ]
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
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