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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Would Alpha 'work' without the 'Holy Spirit weekend'?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Alpha's been discussed here plenty of times.
At the risk of riding a Dead Horse, I'd like to raise an issue about one issue in particular.
The Alpha format predates the 'Holy Spirit weekend' as far as I understand it. The charismatic bit was added under the increasing influence of Wimber, the Vineyard etc.
Now, I'm wondering whether Alpha has been as successful (in numerical terms) because of this or inspite of it. I suspect that the success is largely down to the format - meal, discussion, systematic approach etc etc.
What I'm wondering, though, is how the Holy Spirit weekend contributes to the overall effect - in sociological terms rather than the way participants may interpret it.
I've always felt that it comes in at rather an odd-point in the schedule. In standard, 'second-blessing', two-tier Pentecostal pneumatology the whole 'baptism in the Spirit' thing would come after the call to repent and believe and so on.
In Alpha, it comes at a rather different point and I've wondered whether it's there to filter/screen-out those who might be susceptible to such things and those that aren't.
My own parish had the unfortunate experience once of people walking out of the weekend because they felt duped - there were 'plants' as they took it, people sprinkled about the gathering whose job it would be to lay hands on people and pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit.
In fairness, they've altered tack since to avoid a repetition of that.
But it does strike me as reminiscent of certain sales techniques where 'warm prospects' are singled out as the stakes get higher.
I'm not cynical enough to suggest that this is a deliberately mechanical technique, but it is too close to that sort of thing for comfort - to my mind at least.
So, my question is ... could Alpha have been/or become more successful without the added charismatic dimension. Or is it such a vital ingredient that Alpha wouldn't be Alpha without it?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
The weekend I attended was highly uncomfortable for the gentle vicar who ran it - and also those attendees who had come to the course to think through the issues.
But I think you are right, there is a level of salesmanship going on.
It'd be interesting to know how many graduates of Alpha 'stay the course' - say are still in church 5+ years later - compared to similar courses.
Also I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the attendees on the 5 or 6 courses I was involved in were members of the church. I don't know how much impact it has on the totally unchurched - very little, I'd guess.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
As mentioned before, Alpha seems to have morphed a bit as a crossed the pond.
Here in the States, it's not unusual for mainline churches to have Alpha classes w/o the Holy Spirit weekend. It's not "kosher" of course-- at the Alpha training I went to years ago, Gumbel pleaded with leaders not to call it "Alpha" if you're going to leave that out-- but it's pretty commonplace.
I think I would say Alpha works differently w/o the Holy Spirit weekend. The point of the weekend, as I understand it, is to provide an experiential confirmation of what until then has been a rather cognitive approach to faith. It's a very different experience w/o that. Not wrong (from my perspective, although I get why HTB wants to protect their "brand"), just different.
Alpha at it's best it's about authenticity-- about being straightforward, matter of fact: "this is who we are, what we believe, join us if you like, if not, God bless." Which argues, I think (contrary to Gumbel) for making the entire course consistent with what church is like in your particular environment. If you are a happy-clappy evo-charismatic church like HTB, then you should have a Holy Spirit weekend-- because that's who you are. It's what you get on Sunday mornings. It makes sense.
otoh, if you are a more subdued mainline church where tongue-speaking is rare if ever, it doesn't make much sense to me to shoehorn that into your Alpha course out of some loyalty to the "home office".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Clodsley Shovel
Apprentice
# 16662
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Posted
Without the holy spirit weekend it would then basically be Christianity Explored?
Posts: 41 | Registered: Sep 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Now, I'm wondering whether Alpha has been as successful (in numerical terms) because of this or inspite of it. I suspect that the success is largely down to the format - meal, discussion, systematic approach etc etc.
What I'm wondering, though, is how the Holy Spirit weekend contributes to the overall effect - in sociological terms rather than the way participants may interpret it.
The basic approach works without the 'Holy Spirit Weekend' - it's just an adaptation of the Iwerne approach.
I would also tend to disagree with the contention that it is necessarily in contrast to the rest of the course. Rather than experiential vs cognitive, I think the better descriptor is 'pragmatic'. The approach is very much 'do you feel this is true to you' and this is as true of the earlier sessions as the weekend.
I would also like to see some figures for what sort of impact it actually makes long term. My observations have been that many of the attendees are churched but were never taught - rather than people who don't have a church background. How well they were subsequently taught is open to question, especially as the first group was usually the one most likely to push for a follow-up Beta group. Against the background figure of continuous church decline, there isn't even a blip where Alpha would be, so I suspect a lot of it's perceived success is displacement.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I've done 'the whole HTB thing', been an Alpha leader, support couple on The Marriage Course (the best thing they've done!), run a Pastorate, and so on. I'm a bit 'over it' now, but there is much to commend about the Alpha Course. Nicky was/is well aware of the issues with Holy Spirit weekend but the feedback is mixed. My problem with the weekend is the Toronto-esque take on what 'receiving the Holy Spirit' means. HTB have gone way too far down the theologically and biblically dubious path of laughter and levitating. I think it can succeed without it or at least without the HTB idea of what is entailed.
There are other issues, but overall the positives outweigh the negatives.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
I did Alpha with a MOTR CofE in the UK. They replaced the spirit weekend with an away-day with a confessional theme. It worked for me. I was very reluctant to join in on the day. I would have run a mile from speaking in tongues. But even though I didn't participate fully in the event, after I'd slept on in a couple nights I suddenly started to believe. It was a big turning point in my faith. 12 years later, I'm still believing. I think I'd call my experience "a success".
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That's good to hear, Hairy Biker. Shows it can 'work' without the souped up stuff.
I think Cliffdweller makes a very good point. A 'Holy Spirit weekend' makes sense in a charismatic context, such as HTB. It makes less sense in a MOR or a more sacramental context or a conservative evangelical one.
The whole thing is an attempt to make the charismatic experience normative, of course, and to export it to places where it may not be, or not have been, the norm.
I just wonder whether it deters or puts-off as many people as it attracts. I've heard of Alpha courses where virtually everybody dropped out at that part. 'We were fine until they brought in this speaking in tongues thing, that's not what I signed up for. I wanted to know more about the Christian faith not all this speaking in tongues business ...'
That's what I mean about it acting as a 'filter' - perhaps in some unconscious way. If you filter out all those who aren't susceptible to the tongues thing then you've got a pretty good chance that those who are left on the course are going to be malleable and suggestible enough to go along with all of that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I can understand why Nicky Gumbel doesn't want people to leave out parts of the Alpha course, though. To me, it suggests that some churches want to buy into the fame of the Alpha brand without fully sharing Alpha values (however those might be defined). It would be more honest to run a less famous course that fits more closely with the values of your church. There are several alternatives, so I understand.
From what I've read, Alpha attracts a high proportion of people who are already fairly regular churchgoers. Otherwise, it appeals to people who are on the fringes of the church and who are in some way already somewhat positive about Christianity. Very few people just turn up with no connection at all to a congregation. Few of them are complete atheists - although I used to post on a messageboard where atheists would regularly start threads about their awkward experiences on Alpha courses! I think they were just looking for a debating club, personally! What struck me as a result of our discussions on those threads was how difficult it must be for course leaders to satisfy the very different needs and/or expectations of the people who do the course.
I can recommend a very interesting book on the history and the impact of Alpha: Stephen Hunt, 'The Alpha Enterprise: Evangelism in the Post-Christian Era' (2004). (The author is an agnostic sociologist who joined several Alpha courses during his research for the book. I don't think he become a Christian as a result, but he met some interesting people, and his book is a respectful, academic, but very readable analysis of the Alpha phenomenon.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sounds interesting, SvitlanaV2.
Alpha's been discussed here a fair bit in the past, before you joined the Boards, so I wasn't aiming to provoke a discussion about Alpha in broader terms, but to focus on one particular aspect of it.
Not that I'm carping at your contribution, I hasten to add!
It seems to me that it's axiomatic that an 'experiential' element - whether in pietistic or charismatic terms as in Alpha - or in a more 'sacramental' or perhaps 'mystic' way as found in some other traditions, or an aesthetic way as in others - is going to help people to 'stick' around .
Whether that is sufficient validity for the claimed experiences, isn't for me to say.
I've gradually come to the conclusion that most of what we call 'spiritual gifts' in the charismatic sense have no intrinsic meaning or validity in and of themselves, other than as 'bonding' or reinforcement mechanisms that make people feel part of a group.
I'm stretching the point a little, but it's a position I'm prepared to defend.
Other traditions have their own equivalent mechanisms.
What's intriguing me about Alpha is the extent to which this aspect is emphasised and whether it really makes a difference to whether people stay the course and come to faith.
Hairy Biker has demonstrated that it is possible to come to faith through Alpha without the particular charismatic dimension. I suspect there are many others who could say the same.
I'm by no means wanting to eliminate any sense of the 'vatic' or the experiential - but I am wondering what difference it really makes other than some kind of sociological glue.
Am I barking up the wrong tree? But not in a Toronto way ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, my question is ... could Alpha have been/or become more successful without the added charismatic dimension. Or is it such a vital ingredient that Alpha wouldn't be Alpha without it?
Sad to say it has been a deal breaker for me.
It has been made so clear on so many occasions that the Holy Spirit Weekend is the sine qua non of Alpha that I can't see myself doing it.
From a theological pov my hackles always rise when I sniff overt and strong pragmatism and I have to say that I have been told countless times that Alpha will not work if I don't do it exactly the approved way.
I'm torn. I've got a lot of friends who I respect greatly in the HTB franchise but it really does feel as if they are copyrighting the gospel here.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Echoing Johnny S, it's frankly why I would not attend Alpha. It strikes me as conjuring up the HS on demand and most probably at least some of the time being about the psychological context.
Some of this is certainly my issue, with experience of what has appeared to be disingenuous associated conduct (if I'm not being too obscure here).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I used to be a member of a church which ran repeated Alpha courses; it replaced the Holy Spirit weekend with a day away. Most of the people we were attracting had family responsibilities, little money etc and a whole weekend wasn't realistic. Plus, it was a Presbyterian church, so anything too emotive would have been a radical departure from "normal" worship.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
From a theological pov my hackles always rise when I sniff overt and strong pragmatism and I have to say that I have been told countless times that Alpha will not work if I don't do it exactly the approved way.
? I can't see the connection. Surely a pragmatic view would be 'this works, but if you find doing something a different way, works, then, fine, do it'.
Tangentially, what's wrong with pragmatism by the way? What am I missing?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I can't see the connection. Surely a pragmatic view would be 'this works, but if you find doing something a different way, works, then, fine, do it'.
Okay, two different points here.
The Alpha marketing is very clear that you have to do it this way because it is the only way that works.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangentially, what's wrong with pragmatism by the way? What am I missing?
There is nothing wrong with pragmatism generally.
There are big issues when it comes to the gospel though. Pragmatism tends to lead to short-term thinking - i.e. for it to be measurable, "does it work?" tends to become "how many people made a commitment on the course?"
Hence even in the way you measure your outcomes there is a tendency to move towards techniques that pressurise people to 'make a one off commitment' or tick a box rather than repent and commit themselves to a life of following Jesus and becoming more like him.
I think courses are great, but my criteria for success are going to be whether lives were built using gold or straw as revealed on the last day, not just if someone put their hand up at a Holy Spirit weekend.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I think replacing it with a 'Retreat Day/ Weekend' would 'work' just as well. ISTM that such a break from the norm can be fairly pivotal to the 'success' of Alpha, in that it provides a bonding opportunity (to use Gamaliel's phrase) outwith one's normal environment coupled with a challenge to respond to what's been said and discussed thus far.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Incipit
Shipmate
# 10554
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Posted
Very helpful to have this warning. I'd wondered about going to an Alpha course, particularly to find out if what I had heard was its (to me inexcusable) anti-gay bias was in fact true. But hearing about what sounds like group hysteria used as a marketing ploy has convinced me never to do the course.
Posts: 51 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I led several Alpha groups at HTB over the years and naturally we did things by the book (so to speak). One of the good things about Alpha is that it gets people into a church building (though I've seen it done in upstairs rooms at a pub) in a largely social setting. Among those in our groups there was usually a good degree of disinterest mixed with apprehension regarding the away weekend. The 'successful' groups had people 'speaking in tongues' (which is the name HTB gives to babbling, rather than the kind in the Bible) our groups had people walking along the beach in the rain, wondering if there was a God (which was, at the time, a disappointment—'it's not working', I thought). The overemphasis on the weekend is typical of the whole charismatic emphasis on 'events'.
Sandy and then Nicky were/are both devoted Wimberites. The more distance I have with that period in my life, the clearer the whole thing becomes.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
A lot here sums up my reservations.
From here the whole Alpha format looks unredeemably middle-class and establishment. Evidence for this is that in France, the churches running successful Alpha courses are overwhelmingly catholic churches, not protestant/evangelical ones.
Secondly, I'm very chary of having to buy into a whole package, especially one that attempts to package the Holy Spirit.
Thirdly, I'm unsure what the long-term impact of Alpha might be. I'm interested in getting people to follow Jesus for the whole of their lives, and I'm not convinced the "hit rate" from decision-oriented evangelistic campaigns is any better than less spectacular methods.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Thirdly, I'm unsure what the long-term impact of Alpha might be. I'm interested in getting people to follow Jesus for the whole of their lives, and I'm not convinced the "hit rate" from decision-oriented evangelistic campaigns is any better than less spectacular methods.
To expand on what I said earlier; In my experience, it seems that a lot of those attending were from a Christian background and had been poorly 'catechised' along with a smattering of those on the fringes of the church.
Alpha has effectively displaced other evangelistic endeavours that most churches would have run, with about equal amounts of success (which is to say not a lot).
The people who stick around tend to be - as always - those who have had friends who have got alongside them and been willing to accompany them on their struggles.
But we are getting off topic; I think an Alpha like format without the 'Holy Spirit weekend' would work just as well.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
Interesting.
As a church, we've been planning doing a course exploring Christianity as a part of our outreach. We did consider Alpha, but part of the reason I was reluctant to use it was, as the one who would be leading the course, I would have great difficulties in leading the Holy Spirit weekend. I don't think that kind of experience is wrong - I just don't think it's where I'm "at" theologically and in my walk with God, so I wouldn't feel comfortable leading others into an experience that's not where I'm at. The fact that, as has been mentioned upthread, you're strongly discouraged from omitting the weekend was a deal-breaker - it does feel like this charismatic experience is being taught as the only valid experience of the Holy Spirit and that this can happen to order.
So it's interesting a) to hear that others are thinking the same as this and b) that others have found a way around it. I was just scared of triggering the "Altering Alpha" red alert at HTB!
The irony of this is that we settled on Christianity Explored, which is again not where I'm at theologically - it's much more conservative than I am. But I feel we have a bit more leeway to modify this, at least in the discussion groups. The shame is that the away day on this seems just the same as the other sessions - teaching and discussion - and is just as angled at getting people to make decisions. The one good point about Alpha and the HS weekend, IMHO, is that it recognises that there does need to be some way of making all this real, which CE seems to ignore - I'm just not sure it goes about it in the best way.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
IME Alpha had the greatest amount of success with what (for want of a better term) I would call the 'fringe' ie: those attending church, typically sporadically, usually because they had been invited by friends and/or were loosely involved in other church-based groups eg: mums and toddlers. Alpha was (and still is at the gaffe I go to) pretty good at moving such people towards a firm commitment to Christ or at least more towards the 'core' as opposed to the 'fringe'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Interesting comments.
I agree with Johnny S entirely. But with the added concern that what we're dealing with here isn't simply a 'show of hands' (as if that wasn't bad enough) but claims that people can receive a life-changing pneumatic experience of God the Holy Spirit in some kind of neatly packaged way.
I think the level of expectation that this raises and the suggestibility that this entails is a cause of concern. I've been through the whole charismatic thing and done all the speaking in tongues, prophesying, falling over, laughing and what-have-you ...
I've also 'induced' these things to some extent with other people so I know how easy it is to 'do' this stuff and convince yourself and others that it is the 'real thing' rather than simply some kind of response to cues and a raised level of expectation.
I also think some people are more prone to this sort of thing. I evidently was, for all my intellectualism. It came with a certain amount of Welsh 'hwyl' and sentimentalism in my case.
That said, I wouldn't write off all such experiences per se. I'm just wary, as Johnny S is, about the pragmatic approach that seems to embed these things into the programme in some kind of mechanical way.
I really don't see why churches like the Presbyterian one that has been mentioned shouldn't be allowed to run Alpha sans the bits they don't like. In practice, despite the copy-righting and franchise-packaging that goes on, many churches elide or modify that aspect anyway.
If Gumbel and all really wanted to be pragmatic they'd allow some leeway. They might get more 'takers' that way.
It's interesting, because when I look back at my independent charismatic sector days it was often the introduction of the charismatic element after people had 'gone forward', 'raised their hands' or responded to an altar-call or a call for counselling etc etc in a rather 'decisionist' way that led to people disappearing and never darkening our doors again.
For some reason, though, it never occurred to us to abandon or modify the practice. I can remember instances of genuinely sincere enquirers being turned off and turned away by all the tongues-speaking and so on.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
At least part of the reason that people are 'turned off' by the whole 'tongues' business is not only because speaking in tongues is weird, but that the vast majority of it is bogus and induced by external and environmental factors.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
For me, the main issues with Alpha are much less about what happens at the weekend and much more to do with the content and the advertising/glossiness. I've no particular beef with Nicky Gumbel, but I don't like being told what to believe by a bunch of ex-barristers. Personally I think they have little in common with anyone outside of their middle-class, dinner party set.
Yes, I can think of some people outside of this set who have benefited from Alpha, but I think they are by far the minority.
Alpha is irrelevant to most people because most people do not sit around listening to people waffling and then discuss it over a meal. This is not most people's experience, so the format is quite alien to people outwith of church - as someone else said, as a result the main impacts are on the churched-but-at-the-edge population who have already something of the church culture.
I really fail to understand what is so hard about writing your own material. If you really think it would help to sit down and discuss theology over a meal with people, why not just do it? Why do you need to pay someone else for permission to do it?
I think the weekend is unnatural and unhelpful for most people previously outside of church. For those at the edges, it might bring them further into the centre. Why God ever turns up to these things is beyond my understanding (yet, surprisingly, he sometimes seems to).
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Alpha is irrelevant to most people because most people do not sit around listening to people waffling and then discuss it over a meal.
There are many criticisms I'd make of Alpha, but this isn't one I recognise necessarily and frankly seems a little bizarre.
Talking over a meal - if presented correctly - can be a very familiar for many people from all sorts of backgrounds. One might almost say that the experience of hospitality - if done correctly - is the reason why Alpha succeeds outside middle class circles.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
For me, the main issues with Alpha are much less about what happens at the weekend and much more to do with the content and the advertising/glossiness. I've no particular beef with Nicky Gumbel, but I don't like being told what to believe by a bunch of ex-barristers.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Are there other classes of people who can't possibly have any theological insight worth you disdaining to listen to, or is it just lawyers?
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
@Leprechaun - well, I think it is interesting that the course was designed and propagated by ex-barristers. If one was to think of a group to design a theological course with an emphasis on content rather than dramatic argument, I'd think theologians might be more appropriate than barristers.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
I think the HS Weekend is just another part of the "Bait-and-Switch" approach of Alpha in general.
The course is advertised as a forum for questions, but by the third week, it starts to turn into "this is the right answer, how do you feel about that?"
The session on Biblical evidence purports to examine the arguments, but moves straight from "we have some old manuscripts" to "therefore the Bible is 100% accurate!"
The HS Weekend fits into this pattern, usually being described in bland, unremarkable terms and then turning the manipulation up to 11 once people have made an initial commitment by going on it.
I'm not sure that it's deliberately placed to filter people, though - I think it's more to get to the sales pitch before everyone gets bored. Anyone who's still interested after 7 or 8 weeks is probably committed to the course, and will go along, especially as everyone else will be talking about it the week after. If you leave the HS Weekend to the end, it's easier to treat as an optional extra.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That makes sense, The Great Gumby ...
At the risk of going off on a tangent about 'bait-and-switch' techniques, I despair that they seem pretty endemic across evangelicalism in general - although there are notable exceptions.
I once challenged an evangelist about what I took to be a very manipulative and staged - in the step-by-step sense - approach to an 'altar-call' only to be told that it was the technique Jesus had used with Zacchaeus - 'Zacchaeus, come down from that tree and I'll go round your house for tea this evening ...'
These things are so endemic in some circles as not even to be questioned, challenged or even thought-through properly.
Of course, the Lord can and does work in and through this sort of thing - despite the inherent naffness of it all.
He must have infinite patience alright. I no longer go to our church prayer meetings because I can't bear to hear the crap that people speak when they give God detailed instructions for what they want Him to do. It sounds like Holy Ghost sat-nav sometimes:
'Lord, would you move by your Spirit along Acacia Avenue, left into Primrose Drive, then across to those bungalows and the bottom ...'
I don't know how he puts up with it. Imagine being God, you'd have the Orthodox chanting the same thing at you week by week, the Quakers going all quiet on you and the charismatic evangelicals bossing you about and telling you what to do ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know how he puts up with it. Imagine being God, you'd have the Orthodox chanting the same thing at you week by week, the Quakers going all quiet on you and the charismatic evangelicals bossing you about and telling you what to do ...
LOL, quite a fitting description.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Moving tangentially from the OP:
I've been wondering, in this age of science and scepticism, if a whole different approach to 'selling Christianity" is required. Less on the unbelievable - from a conventional perspective - and more on how to live reasonably with self and others. If Christians look like loony hysterics, how can it be expected that people will take it seriously? The miraculous can be added in measure as the person grows into the faith.
Thus, an anti-conversionism (and anti-Paul) stance as the entry to Christianity. Jesus' life and way of living it seems to me to be the most attractive part of Christianity on a conventional level, and his message of charity and love to be the "sale-able" core on initiation.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Alpha is irrelevant to most people because most people do not sit around listening to people waffling and then discuss it over a meal.
There are many criticisms I'd make of Alpha, but this isn't one I recognise necessarily and frankly seems a little bizarre.
Talking over a meal - if presented correctly - can be a very familiar for many people from all sorts of backgrounds. One might almost say that the experience of hospitality - if done correctly - is the reason why Alpha succeeds outside middle class circles.
I agree. Which makes the "success" dependent upon the table leadership. With the right person-- someone who is non-defensive, welcoming, curious, willing to engage challenging questions w/o needing to offer a pat answer-- this can be truly wonderful. Unfortunately, many of us evangelicals simply can't get out of the trap of needing to "close the deal", give a neat answer for everything, and push for a "final decision".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
A lot here sums up my reservations.
From here the whole Alpha format looks unredeemably middle-class and establishment. Evidence for this is that in France, the churches running successful Alpha courses are overwhelmingly catholic churches, not protestant/evangelical ones.
Secondly, I'm very chary of having to buy into a whole package, especially one that attempts to package the Holy Spirit.
Thirdly, I'm unsure what the long-term impact of Alpha might be. I'm interested in getting people to follow Jesus for the whole of their lives, and I'm not convinced the "hit rate" from decision-oriented evangelistic campaigns is any better than less spectacular methods.
My impression was that almost all successful evangelisation in France is dominated by the Catholic Church, so the fact that French Alpha is a mostly RC phenomenon probably does nothing more than confirm that reality.
****
Re the success rate of Alpha, that book by Stephen Hunt that I mentinoed above has some figures (as does his previous book on the topic). The 'Journal of Contemp. Religion' has an article by the same author, and he makes the following relevant points about Alpha:
It sees itself as distinct from the Billy Graham kind of evangelism, which is now deemed to be culturally inappropriate.
Alpha material urges course leaders not to pressurise people into making a decision. 'The idea is to ease people into the faith in their own time, pace and at their leisure.'
If people drop out of the course they shouldn't be contacted and coerced into rejoining.
Alpha largely attracts participants as a result of personal contacts.
The Holy Spirit weekend is the most controversial part of the course. Apparently its purpose is to get the participants into a more relaxing 'group-bonding' environment, and is designed to coincide with the course's section on the Holy Spirit. 'The concern is, therefore, to create the right psychological environment for the Holy Spirit to operate.'
The 10 week course is highly structured, and although the developers want it to have a certain flexibility on the ground, they are also concerned about a 'loss of integrity in some courses.'
Despite the inherent standardisation of such a course, customisation in local contexts is inevitable. (E.g. churches leaving out the Holy Spirit weekend, or other topics.)
Conservative Protestants and RCs are unhappy about each other's involvement in Alpha, traditionalists criticise its modernist and charismatic approach, and liberals complain about its lack of a social gospel, basic theology and fundamentalist leanings.
Does it 'work'?
There is a relatively high brand awareness among the public, but Hunt's research in the UK (470 returned questonnaires) shows that the attempt 'to move away from social networks to direct advertising has largely failed.'
3% of participants arrive as a result of advertising.
70% know of Alpha through their church, indicating that a large number are already churchgoers.
5% of participants are from outside the faith, with little previous knowledge, and on an intense spiritual journey.
14% are Christians using it as a refresher course.
66% (whether committed or on the fringe of the church) want to deepen their faith.
77% were already Christians on starting Alpha.
17% approx. claimed they'd committed themselves to the faith as a result of the course - although a majority of these were already churchgoers.
16% say it didn't change their view of Christianity.
60% say it's had a positive view on their spiritual lives.
One might generalise that 'the net effect of Alpha is to rejuvenate evangelically-minded churches and the spiritual life of their members' rather than creating sizeable numbers of converts. This is also true of earlier evangelistic campaigns.
Alpha appeals to a particular social demographic. Female-male ration is at 2:1. A wide age spread, though the majority are middle aged. The young (0-30 yrs) are not particularly attracted to Alpha, nor the very old.
Black-majority churches seem to be underrepresented.
General orientation is towards the middle classes. 65% are in employment, and the majority of those not working are retired or housewives.
HTB estimates a drop-out rate of 30%.
A small number of converts are being made, although not nearly enough to replace those who have left the churches.
The founders of Alpha would not necessarily be expecting to 'win souls' in the short term, but would claim to be informing people about Christianity and inviting them on a long term journey.
1 in 20 partipants take the course again. There are also follow-on courses to do post-Alpha.
'Alpha's discernable net effect so far would seem to be in extending charismatic Christianity to UK churches, including those previously untouched by the Renewal movement. Charismatic Christianity therefore continues to have the same function that it has had for nearly four decades in spiritually reinvigorating those already in the church, albeit by different means. This has been by far Alpha's greatest achievement.'
(The impact and makeup of Alpha abroad may be different; Eastern Europe has been strong for converts.)
Emphasis mine in all cases. I hope some of these figures and details have been of some interest. May I boldly suggest that the problem of the Holy Spirit weekend almost seems irrelevant if Alpha is read as an agent of charismatic influence and renewal.....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
My wife and I walked out of the Holy Spirit wekend when a local RC taking the course at our church started rolling around the floor in ecstasy. HSW was by far the worst part of Alpha for us. Thankfully Alpha died a natural death at our church with changing of rectors.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Has anyone here done Alpha in an RC context? What happens to the weekend there?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Years ago at my home church, we had a priest who started up Alpha courses. The "Holy Spirit weekend" was run with other churches - I'm not sure how many, because I never attended - some of which I believe were Pentecostal churches (ours was Episcopal).
I attended the Alpha class, to check it out, and then, on the priest's request, I went through it again as some kind of group facilitator (leading at a table during the discussion). I was supposed to go to the HS weekend, but my car broke down. The priest half-joked that it was the work of Satan (unlike many Episcopal priests, she actually believed in a literal Satan). Being a recovering Pentecostal myself, I was certain it was the work of God. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The main problem I had with the idea of the HS weekend (since I never experienced it) was that the course is promoted as something for seekers; however, that weekend ends up turning the course into a program that is meant to systematically convert people on a schedule. As if people should come the first week with no particular commitment, perhaps no more than curiosity, perhaps with all kinds of baggage from previous church or life experience; and then be speaking in tongues on - what was it, week 9 or so?
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Does the Holy Spirit weekend really require that people suddenly start speaking in tongues or rolling on the floor? Can't it simply mean that you have a whole weekend to meditate deeply on God, without distractions?
What about using that weekend to explore non-charismatic experiences of the Holy Spirit. What about Celtic spirituality and all the monastic types of experience that some people are into? Surely they involve an awareness of the Holy Spirit?
If you've already 'de-charismatised' your Alpha course because you're not a charismatic church, then I can't see why you can't just de-charismatise your Holy Spirit weekend.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
I am sure Alpha can work without the Holy Spirit Weekend.
I don't think Christianity can work without the Holy Spirit however.
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well yes, Waterchaser, but it's this idea of 'creating the right psychological conditions for the Holy Spirit to work' that bothers me.
SvitlanaV2's statistics are relevant and interesting, as is her observation about the potential for having a Holy Spirit weekend that doesn't necessarily involve the charismatic dimension in the way that charismatics traditionally understand it.
But the fact is, the Alpha franchise doesn't allow for that. Built into the whole thing is an expectation that God will conform to certain expectations by causing people to speak in tongues or roll on the floor or whatever else happens to be de-rigeur in charismatic circles at the time - with tongues as the general, but not compulsory, constant.
So yes, I think SvitlanaV2 is onto something when she suggests that this aspect is part-and-parcel of the intrinsic default-strength of Alpha which has been to spread a particular form of charismatic spirituality more widely.
I will lay my own cards on the table and suggest that all Christians are charismatic to some extent or other - but this doesn't necessarily mean that they should fall over, speak in tongues or whatever else.
The Holy Spirit is clearly at work in settings where the charismatic dimension is apparently absent or downplayed. There wouldn't be ANY form of Christianity anywhere without the work of God the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox, for instance, believe that their Liturgy is pneumatic - infused with the Holy Spirit - whilst most charismatics would be puzzled by that and not discern the working of the Holy Spirit by that means because it doesn't conform to their particular expectations.
The Brethren believe that the Holy Spirit prompts them to speak or pray in their worship. Quakers, to some extent or other, believe the same or similar.
Are we saying that any of them are deficient because they don't approach these things in the prescribed Alpha-style way?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
I am sure Alpha can work without the Holy Spirit Weekend.
I don't think Christianity can work without the Holy Spirit however.
Well, I'm sure it's been asked on the Ship before - but is the Holy Spirit an influence from without or within? If it's 'God' working in us how can we ever know if it's not simply psychological?
I have been there and got the T Shirt with the Alpha weekend - it did me a lot of good at the time. Relaxing, peaceful, refreshing, fellowship, building us up for service etc. But I got all this from my weekend away in Barcelona with good friends, food and wine which I've just come home from!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd suggest it's not either/or but both, Boogie. Why shouldn't the Holy Spirit have been involved with your relaxing weekend in Barcelona?
Ok, I'd have some doubt about His involvement if you'd told me you'd got blind drunk and run naked up The Ramblas, but I don't see why we have to confine the work of the Holy Spirit to church meetings or even things that are specifically 'religious' ...
The wind blows where it listeth ...
I think the mistake that many of us often make is to confine the work of the Holy Spirit to what we feel are 'tangible' or experiential influences. It seems to me that the Holy Spirit works in often imperceptible or barely perceptible ways.
To discern what constitutes the Holy Spirit's working and what constitutes our own ideas, desires or inclinations is the work of a lifetime ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I think the charismatic movement has been a necessary reminder that the Holy Spirit is genuinely active in the world, did not leave Christians to get on with it themselves somewhere around 100 AD, and someone rather more than 'a sweet influence'.
However, it has also created the impression both among some charismatics and elsewhere, that the Holy Spirit's is only really interested in signs and wonders, and only active when there are excitements and spiritual thrills.
The fruits of the Spirit, which we have to assume are the evidence that the Holy Spirit is present and active, are personal qualities of a quite different order.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
The Holy Spirit 'away day' (not enough money for a weekend at our gaffe) at the Free Church I used to go to was not really 'charismatic', in the house church-y speaking in tongues sense at all (largely because the Free Church concerned was fairly cessationist in its pneumatology) but was rather more reflective with lots of periods of quiet meditation. Still effective (if by that you mean that most participants felt closer to God at the end than at the beginning) but I suppose the criticism could be levelled that for some, 'quiet reflection' can be the right 'psychological setting' for conversion as equally as a rather more noisy, possibly manipulative charismatic situation...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Enoch, yes, absolutely. I don't have an issue with the charismatic emphasis on the immanence of God. That's implicit in the more sacramental traditions, of course, most notably in eucharistic theology - but isn't always expressed or appreciated in that way.
@Matt, yes, I agree, there can be a certain amount of 'psychology' going on in the quiet reflective approach as well as in the loud and the exuberant. We are not disembodied beings so an element of that is always going to be present however we do things.
I don't have a beef with loud and exuberant per se ... just so long as we realise what we are doing and that this is just as much a 'construct' as anything else.
When Jon Ronson did his rather sarcastic documentary on Alpha, I was struck by how Charlie Cleverley (not so cleverly) arranged the salient point of the Holy Spirit weekend at the one they filmed.
They went off to a stately-home somewhere and then, at the pertinent point, tried to induce tongues-speaking by hushing the atmosphere, getting someone to lead some worship and then continue strumming the guitar at which point people were expecting to join in either singing or speaking in tongues. My wife is quite musical and understands how easy this is to achieve. People simply harmonise around a single note or phrase and the effect builds and before you know it you have the semblance of 'singing in tongues'.
Anyway, just as they were getting going, some 4-wheel drive vehicles started reversing and revving and setting out for some off-road activity booked by some of the other guests. The charismatic worship leader was put off in his stride and they postponed the session and reconvened it for a later time when they were less likely to be interrupted.
How they couldn't see how this lent itself to suggestibility and manipulation is beyond me. Several of the delegates laughed the whole thing off and others walked out because of it.
It the work of God the Holy Spirit can be thwarted by a couple of reversing and revving off-roaders then surely it makes you wonder about the depth and reality of the putative experience these people are expecting ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Just as Gam mentioned above, a serious error in the charismatic scene is the 'summoning' of the Holy Spirit to 'appear'. I think it is pretty easy to demonstrate how manipulative this all is—you 'create the right conditions', implant the idea, have a group expectation, the use of extremely repetitive music (a device borrowed from advertising and hypnotherapy) and then—a miracle happens!
Of course I believe the Holy Spirit works in our lives and works miracles—but he doesn't need our instructions or 'the right atmosphere' or a certain recipe for it all to 'work'. I wonder if any sociologists have compared Star Wars and some of the wackier parts of Charasmanistan?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My wife is quite musical and understands how easy this is to achieve. People simply harmonise around a single note or phrase and the effect builds and before you know it you have the semblance of 'singing in tongues'.
Complete tangent; but I've noticed that people tend to harmonise around the tonic and the major third, and have often wondered whether an Arabic christian gathering would harmonise around the minor third instead ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Komensky: Just as Gam mentioned above, a serious error in the charismatic scene is the 'summoning' of the Holy Spirit to 'appear'. (...)
Of course I believe the Holy Spirit works in our lives and works miracles—but he doesn't need our instructions or 'the right atmosphere' or a certain recipe for it all to 'work'.
And it also isn't some kind of a butler whom we can 'summon'.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Complete tangent; but I've noticed that people tend to harmonise around the tonic and the major third, and have often wondered whether an Arabic christian gathering would harmonise around the minor third instead
Not that I've noticed. But Indian Christians certainly sing in a minor key.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
And the Holy Spirit also isn't an 'it' Le Roc, but a 'he' ...
God is always personal.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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