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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should we try to raise the dead?
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Well, should we? Or, what is meant by the language 'raise the dead'?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Only on Fridays.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Short answer: no.
Longer answer: over-realised eschatology.
Question: where would you be getting that language from anyway?
St Adrian Plass answer in verse, from the poem "I want to have a ministry":
I want to pray for something dead and see if it revives
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Well, I'm a sceptic, but other will argue that Matthew 10:8, where Jesus charges his disciples to, among other things, 'raise the dead'. I'm not entirely a secessionist, but close. Nevertheless, what's to be made of this? We've just lost a friend to cancer. Some were praying for her to be raised from the dead. I would't dream of saying anything, but surely Jesus has done that bit already, no?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In some types of churchmanship it is quite normal to pray for the dead. But we would be very shocked if, in the process of praying for them, they turned up again! May the souls of the departed rest in peace and rise in glory. i.e. in the heavenly realm, not in this one.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think the trouble with many christians enamoured with some form of "victorious christian living" and/or the ministry of the Holy Spirit is that they have no room in their theology for mortality or failure. Praying for resurrection in these circumstances is, it seems to me, a form of denial that induces guilt, sometimes even in the sufferer.
I remember one guy I buried who shortly before his death had to put his foot down to avoid being carted off to Belgium to receive prayer from some healing ministry™ or other. So often this is about the people praying not the individual suffering.
Finally (for now) I'm not a cessationist either, but I think there's a world of difference between raising the dead and trying to raise the dead. I've never raised the dead (though I have been asked to try, while they are still warm) but on the very few occasions where I'm fairly convinced I've been an agent of healing, I just launched out and healed through what I suppose I might call a gift of faith, with little or no forethought.
I keep repeating the story told by John Wimber who explained that when you iron your shirt, you don't stand there proclaiming your shirt is ironed in Jesus' name. You iron your shirt. It's the same for healing or resurrecting. Put up or shut up.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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catthefat
Shipmate
# 8586
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Posted
Would the dead want to be raised?
Was Lazarus really happy to be raised, and then have to go through the whole bloody business of dying all over again?
Posts: 143 | From: nottingham uk | Registered: Sep 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It's a good thing to pray for what we want imv, provided that we recognise that we're expressing our wishes to God and not expecting God to dance to our tune.
If we've specifically been given authority by God to pray and guidance as to what God wants us to ask for, however, we're facilitating God's work by saying the prayer.
In neither case should we see it as our action in trying to raise the dead. In the second instance, stand back and see what happens.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
Sometimes I meet a new believer who is reading his/her Bible , having quiet times (remember those!?) and praying for everybody. People are getting healed and I want to tell him/her about cessationalism. But I think about the story of the person who is sleepwalking with his eyes open, he is walking off a roof into thin air, and someone tells him, " That's impossible! The law if gravity doesn't allow that!" And the person wakes up and crashes to the ground 15 feet below!
I was talking to my wife's sister (I've posted about her) and breaking it to her gently about the period after becoming a new Christian when several prayers are answered, that it is a temporary thing... But she's not concerned! She's determined to tell everybody about the Kingdom!
This is problematic (has almost caused a breakup of her marriage) but recently, her husband fell and broke a knee. The doctors wanted to do a complicated surgery, but she wouldn't allow it. She prayed, and voila, instant healing. Her husband sounds like a pussycat nowadays, at times, speechless too! Quite a change from the heated arguments he used to engage in with her (and me, but I used to pray for the marriage while sharing with him).
Aaaah, who am I to wake her up!?
[ 28. May 2012, 22:08: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I think the question of should we try and raise the dead was quite definitively answered by the television show Buffy the Vampire Slayer-- how do you know if you *do* manage to raise the dead that you're not ripping them out of Heaven?
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
We've just lost a friend to cancer. Some were praying for her to be raised from the dead. I would't dream of saying anything, but surely Jesus has done that bit already, no?
Jesus has resuscitated her already or resurrected her already?
Neither would seem to be the case. Resurrection of all the dead comes at the end of the age (general resurrection) when Jesus returns. Hasn't happened yet.
As for resuscitation: well.....I guess you can try.
[ 29. May 2012, 02:03: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I think the question of should we try and raise the dead was quite definitively answered by the television show Buffy the Vampire Slayer-- how do you know if you *do* manage to raise the dead that you're not ripping them out of Heaven?
SPOILER for Season 6
Not to mention the episode right after Mom dies, and Dawn tries to bring her back. (F***ing Dawn.)
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I suppose it depends on how long they've been dead...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I suppose it depends on how long they've been dead...
When the police come around because you haven't reported a death that you should have, then they've probably been dead for quite some time ..
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Well, again, I think this is part of the infection of the Signs and Wonders lot. My wife mentioned that people had prayed to raise her from the dead and she said 'I wish I had that amount of faith'. Again, there we see the idea presented that faith is some kind 'power', that if only we possessed it we could raise the dead.
Maybe I am a Cessationist?
What a struggle.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Matt might be on to something. Surely the NT authors weren't suggesting that the Apostles raise Moses, Issac or Plato! Perhaps, just as in The Princess Bride,"There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do".
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I mention that because we had one guy at our Penty congo in the mid-1990s who was an extreme charismatic*/ bit of a nutter* who firmly believed he had a ministry of resurrecting people from the dead: he used to hang around in the cemetery praying for people who'd died in 1869 etc...
*Delete as to your preference
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I mention that because we had one guy at our Penty congo in the mid-1990s who was an extreme charismatic*/ bit of a nutter* who firmly believed he had a ministry of resurrecting people from the dead: he used to hang around in the cemetery praying for people who'd died in 1869 etc...
*Delete as to your preference
Well, at least he wasn't doing huge emotional harm to living, suffering people, by offering unfulfillable promises of healing, as I have seen.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I mention that because we had one guy at our Penty congo in the mid-1990s who was an extreme charismatic*/ bit of a nutter* who firmly believed he had a ministry of resurrecting people from the dead: he used to hang around in the cemetery praying for people who'd died in 1869 etc...
*Delete as to your preference
Unless he had a spade and could dig fairly fast, that would have been an even more frightening experience for them than waking up to a world which was completely changed and where you knew no one.
I feel a comedy script coming on.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Those church members who have passed on to get out of their committee assignments ought to be brought back to finish their terms. Otherwise, let 'em lay.
--Tom Clune
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Sometimes, today even, I feel as if part of me has died. I wish someone would raise me.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
And isn't that the kind of raising that Jesus wanted us to do? To raise people to *new* life?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In some types of churchmanship it is quite normal to pray for the dead. But we would be very shocked if, in the process of praying for them, they turned up again! May the souls of the departed rest in peace and rise in glory. i.e. in the heavenly realm, not in this one.
Yes - the important thing is that Jesus said "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give" - to his disciples, the Apostles.
He certainly didn't mean for any Tom, Dick or Harry to have a go! I'm not quite sure how our church views it, some of the Saints may have raised the dead, but generally speaking I'd go along with what you've said.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
Is anyone familiar with the 1970s book "Like a Mighty Wind" by Mel Tari? Tari, a native of Indonesia who lived a rather opulent life as a businessman in California, claims that during the '60s there were all kinds of miraculous things that occurred during a revival in his homeland --- people eating poisons without harm, walking on water, water turned into wine and . . . yes . . . resurrections. The book is still controversial after forty years. There are Indonesians who claim all this actually happened, while other people who know Tari say that it was all very exaggerated. Tari himself has had a checkered past.
[ 29. May 2012, 12:32: Message edited by: WearyPilgrim ]
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
WearyPilgrim: that sounds familiar. These stories are *always* along the lines 'in Indonesia... in the Brazilian rainforest... in Africa'. I can remember someone at an HTB 'home focus' assuring the audience that people being raised from the dead was really happening. Someone asked for an example. Wait for it… she told us that "someone I know in Africa". I didn't want to offend everyone by asking "have you personally seen a person declared clinically dead by a real doctor raised from the dead?".
Needless to say, Bill Johnson and his band of loonies at Bethel are determined to raise the dead—if only they can get the formula right (that's how his doctrine works). Alas, they've already had to apologise for circulating a fabricated story about raising the dead… in Brazil.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Holjo
Apprentice
# 10912
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Posted
A friend of mine died last Thursday. He and his wife and family are charismatic Pentecostal believers. His wife was so convionced that he would be healed , that even when he dies she did / asked the following
a) Left a fresh set of clothes with the hospice nurse for when he arose.
b) Asked the nurse to confirm that his body would be frozen so that when he arose he would not be .....well rock hard. She was reassured when told the body was only to be kept in cold storage
c) Asked that the door to the morgue would not be locked so he could be assured to be freed.
I do not believe in the stuff that she and my friend believe in , though I am a Christian. I am not minded to mock her simple faith, but I am not in the same place.....
It was a very moving and surreal experience sharing with here the death of her husband
Posts: 50 | From: coming soon to a theatre near you | Registered: Jan 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
< pedant hat ON
Resurrection is not something WE DO. It is something that happens when Jesus returns and God raises everyone. The resurrection body is both physical and spiritual.
Jesus can walk through walls and eat fish at the same time. He is the first.
Resuscitation is something Jesus did a few times and a couple of his apostles did and some people in the old testament. It is an entirely different thing.
It is a purely physical thing and the people would eventually die again.
Use correct terminology please!!
pedant hat OFF >
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
I mention that because we had one guy at our Penty congo in the mid-1990s who was an extreme charismatic*/ bit of a nutter* who firmly believed he had a ministry of resurrecting people from the dead: he used to hang around in the cemetery praying for people who'd died in 1869 etc...
The phrase "zombie apocalypse" comes to mind...
I wonder how many of the "raise the dead" folks are premilennial dispensationalists; because it seems that that theological bent is very much concerned with escaping our enfleshed existence on earth...which makes me wonder why the same people would be so keen to pull their beloved dead back onto this mortal coil. But maybe they have a different eschatological scheme in those circles.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Resuscitation is something Jesus did a few times and a couple of his apostles did and some people in the old testament. It is an entirely different thing.
It is a purely physical thing and the people would eventually die again.
Use correct terminology please!!
Wait a minute - are you saying that when Jesus raised Lazarus and Jairus' daughter from the dead, it was no different from giving them the kiss of life? - because that's my understanding of Resuscitation! ie. there is nothing miraculous about it.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
What is the kiss of life? You mean CPR?
No. It's not that. Rescuscitated bodies in the bible can be dead a few days.
It is certainly still a miracle, but nothing like the resurrection body.
[ 29. May 2012, 14:00: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Resuscitation is something Jesus did a few times and a couple of his apostles did and some people in the old testament. It is an entirely different thing.
It is a purely physical thing and the people would eventually die again.
Use correct terminology please!!
Wait a minute - are you saying that when Jesus raised Lazarus and Jairus' daughter from the dead, it was no different from giving them the kiss of life? - because that's my understanding of Resuscitation! ie. there is nothing miraculous about it.
Well, it wasn't 'resurrection' because Lazarus died again.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
What is the kiss of life? You mean CPR?
No. It's not that. Resuscitated bodies in the bible can be dead a few days.
It is certainly still a miracle, but nothing like the resurrection body.
Kiss of life = CPR. Seriously, as the bodies raised from the dead in the Bible were well and truly dead, I don't think you can use the word "resuscitation". I have heard liberals use this word, but they seem to be indicating that they don't believe these people (and Jesus Christ himself) were ever truly dead in the first place.
The definitions I can find, although not definitive, always seem to indicate 'resuscitation' as a natural process - never miraculous.
I think "resurrection" is the correct term for the biblical raising to life again, and the following article seems to confirm it:
Wikipedia article on "Resurrection"
...or maybe it's a pond thing?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Mark Betts: In theological circles Jesus' Resurrection is understood to be something "completely different" than the raising of Lazarus. (And no, people here are not equating the word resuscitation with artificial resuscitation.) And the Gospel writers seem to take pains to try and describe Jesus' unique attributes as the Resurrected One: He has a tangible body with working parts -- he can eat, even! -- but he can also pass through locked doors and seemingly disappear at will; he can "time travel"; he is at the same time familiar and unfamiliar to his friends; despite this new body/way of being, he still bears the scars of his crucifixion.
That's the difference. Because if Jesus' coming back were no different than Lazarus', then there's not that much special about Jesus'. And really, reading about Jesus' religious milieu, tales of wonderworking rabbis raising people from the dead were not that unusual.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, it wasn't 'resurrection' because Lazarus died again.
I beg to differ - I think it was "resurrection", but not "Resurrection unto Eternal Life".
See my link above in my response to evensong
[ 29. May 2012, 14:35: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I understand the difference Evensong means: the dead raised by Jesus were not resurrected to new life as we will be at The End™, but were raised temporarily to the same sort of lives as they had before and lived to die a second, final death (until the Resurrection of the Dead as above) in due course.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I think the question of should we try and raise the dead was quite definitively answered by the television show Buffy the Vampire Slayer-- how do you know if you *do* manage to raise the dead that you're not ripping them out of Heaven?
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I wonder how many of the "raise the dead" folks are premilennial dispensationalists; because it seems that that theological bent is very much concerned with escaping our enfleshed existence on earth...which makes me wonder why the same people would be so keen to pull their beloved dead back onto this mortal coil. But maybe they have a different eschatological scheme in those circles.
This kind of "better off dead" thinking does beg the question of whether it's applicable to the living-but-critically-injured/ill. If death is preferable to being alive, doesn't saving someone's life do them a disservice?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I understand the difference Evensong means: the dead raised by Jesus were not resurrected to new life as we will be at The End™, but were raised temporarily to the same sort of lives as they had before and lived to die a second, final death (until the Resurrection of the Dead as above) in due course.
I'm not disputing any of what you say, nor LutheranChik. I just have a problem with using the word "resuscitation" for a resurrection which is not to eternal life. Is the Wikipedia page for "Resurrection" wrong?
(I have my "pedant" hat on as well! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) )
[ 29. May 2012, 14:44: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
"Revivify"?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
"Revivify"?
ermmm... Naaah, don't think so!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
he used to hang around in the cemetery praying for people who'd died in 1869 etc...
If I could raise a few people who'd died in 1869 and ask them a few questions it would make my PhD sooooo much easier....
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Don't you believe it. I did my PhD on welfare reform and of course it just keeps rolling on and people expect you to have an opinion on it. if I'd had any sense I'd have done it on Locke or Mill or someone safely dead who could be trusted not to write anything more.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
"Revivify"?
ermmm... Naaah, don't think so!
"Re-animate" sounds too sci-fi/ horror crossover.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
What's wrong with "resurrection" with a small 'r' for miracle "this life" resurrections, and "Resurrection" (big 'R') for the Final Judgement?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I'm always curious as to why all this raising from the dead business became such a big deal in NT times , whereas all through the OT it hardly got a mention.
Taking the faith goggles off for a mo , I mean WTF was going on . Had some substance been discovered that created a temporary death-like condition ?
As for trying to bring dead peeps back to life in this our present age ? Well there's nothing to say you can't have a go.
However I'm more inclined to go with Erroneous Monk, and meditate on 'raising from the dead' in a personal and spiritual sense.
That isn't to dismiss Gospel stories, such as that of the raising of Lazarus, as all hocus pocus .
This scene can still have a very powerful resonance . IMO the best film depiction of Jesus bringing Lazarus out of the tomb was in 'The Last Temptation ...'
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
A. Chomjakav's words as well as the Rachmaninoff's music in "The Raising of Lazarus" (op. 34 no. 6) provide one admirable take on the subject. This is probably my favorite spritual art song.
Translated by Edward Agate:
quote:
O Lord of Heaven!
Man's commands are naught beside thy single word.
Thou hast compelled the grave to open,
And called the beggar Lazarus forth.
Repeat thy wondrous work of marvel,
And bid my soul arise again!
With breath divine its life regaining,
To share thy glory and thy crown!...
Isn't that asking for something just as miraculous (not just life, but theosis)? How like the Orthodox to think of that.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Bethel [...] already had to apologise for circulating a fabricated story about raising the dead… in Brazil.
Citation needed.
The last time I checked, their apology amounted to "well, this particular testimony of those resurrections might be flawed, but we think they might have happened anyway". Can you find better?
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I'm always curious as to why all this raising from the dead business became such a big deal in NT times , whereas all through the OT it hardly got a mention.
Elijah's ministry immediately springs to mind, as well as the man who fell onto Elisha's grave....
That said, one explanation for there being more in the NT might be the symbolic importance of the NT miracles as pointing to the (definitive) resurrection life and victory over the powers of evil - accomplished at the cross (which, obviously, is in the NT).
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Maybe I am a Cessationist?
Just because the signs & wonders mob are doing it wrong doesn't mean you have to be a cessationist. The Spirit blows where he wills (and thus not to order as this lot are trying to achieve) - but that doesn't mean he's ceased blowing altogether.
[ 29. May 2012, 18:59: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
he used to hang around in the cemetery praying for people who'd died in 1869 etc...
If I could raise a few people who'd died in 1869 and ask them a few questions it would make my PhD sooooo much easier....
Except that you presumably have to give full details of your sources, and no-one would believe yours! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Bethel [...] already had to apologise for circulating a fabricated story about raising the dead… in Brazil.
Citation needed.
The last time I checked, their apology amounted to "well, this particular testimony of those resurrections might be flawed, but we think they might have happened anyway". Can you find better?
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I'm always curious as to why all this raising from the dead business became such a big deal in NT times , whereas all through the OT it hardly got a mention.
Elijah's ministry immediately springs to mind, as well as the man who fell onto Elisha's grave....
That said, one explanation for there being more in the NT might be the symbolic importance of the NT miracles as pointing to the (definitive) resurrection life and victory over the powers of evil - accomplished at the cross (which, obviously, is in the NT).
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Maybe I am a Cessationist?
Just because the signs & wonders mob are doing it wrong doesn't mean you have to be a cessationist. The Spirit blows where he wills (and thus not to order as this lot are trying to achieve) - but that doesn't mean he's ceased blowing altogether.
Yep - I buy all that. I think Ceasationalism is a protestant invention - I learnt it when I was protestant, then had to unlearn it when I renounced protestantism!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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