Thread: Those who are shut out of a "self-serve" culture Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
:
Earlier this month the bank I use closed its drive-through service. Formerly called motor banking, these are facilities where you can drive up to a window and conduct routine banking business without leaving your car. I don't know how prevalent this is or was outside the U.S.
ATMs accessible from cars remain available.
The closure is part of the bank's long-term strategy to cut costs through automation by encouraging customers to utilize ATMs and web banking instead of tellers. While there haven't been any public announcements of the strategy or timeline, it's clear that the goal is to eliminate the use of human tellers entirely.
This is but one recent example of products and services that are available only to people who are able to interact with technology. With the success of Amazon.com, many books and other niche products once available in stores can now be ordered only via internet. Video rental stores have been replaced by Redbox and Netflix. Some airlines only accept travel bookings via the web. Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems. We now have a number of completely unattended gas stations.
Facebook has succeeded to the point where statistics show that young people are driving less and have less interest in cars because they no longer gather in one place as their sole means of social engagement.
Never mind the Luddite nostalgia. The problem is that there is a sizable (5%? 10%? who knows) minority of people who don't have the intellectual aptitude to figure these things out. These are the people who could never get their VCR to quit blinking ten years ago. People who can, by most other measures, live independently, hold jobs, and engage with society.
As the trend towards automation continues, what will become of these people?
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on
:
It has recently been acknowledge that military drones have been used in the US. Perhaps we could target these people in the interests of more profitable banking institutions. Surely, terrorism is not the only serious threat to our way of life.
--Tom Clune
Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on
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Bartolomeo quote:
Never mind the Luddite nostalgia. The problem is that there is a sizable (5%? 10%? who knows) minority of people who don't have the intellectual aptitude to figure these things out. These are the people who could never get their VCR to quit blinking ten years ago. People who can, by most other measures, live independently, hold jobs, and engage with society.
Part of the answer is that some very clever people will make it progessively easier for individuals to use such innovations, thereby reducing the proportion of the excluded.
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
As the trend towards automation continues, what will become of these people?
This is difficult. I recognise a problem here but I suppose the way of thinking is very difficult for me to break into.
I run my parish's website and send out the various notices and announcements through Google+. I like to think that I am efficient and thorough, and try to include everything that people might need. I also prepare the music for services. So when, nearing the end Lent, two people anxiously pointed out that I hadn't yet given them the Easter music to learn and I pointed out that it had been on the music page of the website for weeks, imagine my dismay when one was unaware that the website had a music section and the other said, 'Oh, do we have a website now?' (We've had a website for five years).
It's very interesting to see how people use information. I suspect that my aspie tendencies have something to do with my narrow way of dealing with information and organising things. Electronic comminication is best for me because I can integrate everything and find it much easier to work with, plus it's much easier to organise, locate, and share with others. So that's how I ask for things to be sent to me. However, you can be guaranteed that there will be someone who insists on handing me bits of paper with their e-mail address, or feedback on something I've asked them to review for me, or music, or something that I then have to convert into an electronic format, even if it means having to manually input everything myself.
I don't have the mechanism for dealing with bits of paper. If they're lucky enough not to get lost, chances are they'll be forgotten in a pocket and find their way into the wash. If they are truly resilient, they just end up amid all the other crappy bits of paper that people have given to me, then I can never find anything when I need it. I just can't organise paper like that. Yet I beg people to just send me an e-mail - the most straightforward thing in the world - and they screw up their faces as though I've just asked them to write a 10,000-word essay.
So yes, I accept that these people exist but I just can't process them in my head. It's an alien way of thinking to me. Fortunately, as far as church goes, my (slightly technophobic) parish priest makes sure that anyone who falls into that category is looked after with printed service schedules and announcements.
As for the rest of life, I honestly don't know.
[ 11. June 2012, 19:41: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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I live in the hope that people will rebel against the automated voice in greater numbers and seek out human beings. When the local branch of my bank closed down, I changed to another bank. I will wait in a queue rather than use a self service machine.
I'm not a Luddite. I embrace technology and see it as a very valuable additional means of communication, but I draw the line when faced with a screen instead of a person. A screen can't help me, it can't answer my queries without my spending time trawling through a site, and it's likely to freeze just as I've entered my credit card details so that I don't know whether if I start all over again I'll be charged twice and have to contact an automated reply from my credit card company to try to sort it out......
Not only do those working in outlets need jobs, those visiting them need human interaction.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
As the trend towards automation continues, what will become of these people?
This is difficult. I recognise a problem here but I suppose the way of thinking is very difficult for me to break into.
I run my parish's website and send out the various notices and announcements through Google+. I like to think that I am efficient and thorough, and try to include everything that people might need. I also prepare the music for services. So when, nearing the end Lent, two people anxiously pointed out that I hadn't yet given them the Easter music to learn and I pointed out that it had been on the music page of the website for weeks, imagine my dismay when one was unaware that the website had a music section and the other said, 'Oh, do we have a website now?' (We've had a website for five years).
Yes, our church has made a similar shift, with almost all our communications being conveyed through website, email and facebook. It is extraordinarily efficient, cost-effective and ecological. I can remember the days of mass mailings, the large budget required to pay the postage, the amount of volunteer time spent stuffing envelopes and sorting zip codes. The change has been amazing.
But there are people w/o computers. Even more w/o internet connection. Some, as the OP suggests, are elderly or tech-phobic. Others simply can't afford even a basic internet connection, and free wifi in these parts is becoming more & more rare.
The numbers of people who fall into that category are smaller & smaller all the time. But that only makes the problem worse, doesn't it? As it becomes more and more cost-effective to assume everyone has email, what happens to those who do not? When it comes to church communication in particular, that raises concerns for me.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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And then there are those of us who cannot use drive-through services because our arms are too short. My bank's lobby is open Monday-Friday. The drive-through is open Saturday also, but that doesn't do me any good.
Several friends of mine have the same problem.
Moo
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I live in the hope that people will rebel against the automated voice in greater numbers and seek out human beings. When the local branch of my bank closed down, I changed to another bank. I will wait in a queue rather than use a self service machine.
I'm not a Luddite. I embrace technology and see it as a very valuable additional means of communication, but I draw the line when faced with a screen instead of a person.
I'm the complete opposite. When I struggled with anxiety for over a year and had difficulty even answering the phone on some days, it was only the fact that electronic services were available that I was able to conduct my business. When I was eventually able to go out again, my grocery shopping was done in the early hours when there were not many people around, and there's no way I could have faced interaction with anything other than a self-checkout machine.
That was years ago but a small part of that lingers. Phone calls from witheld numbers still make me a little anxious and I often prefer just getting on with my business.
I know someone who won't use self-service machines. He represents an organisation that reimburses me for small services I look after. He does this by driving to the building society and standing in a queue to withdraw cash, which he then gives to me when he sees me, so I then have to go to the Post Office and queue up to put it into my bank account. The whole thing could be done within the space of two minutes but takes three days. We laugh about it but his children didn't when they were at university and needed money. 'I'll send you a cheque in the post tomorrow' wasn't what they needed to hear.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
This is difficult. I recognise a problem here but I suppose the way of thinking is very difficult for me to break into.
I run my parish's website and send out the various notices and announcements through Google+. I like to think that I am efficient and thorough, and try to include everything that people might need. I also prepare the music for services. So when, nearing the end Lent, two people anxiously pointed out that I hadn't yet given them the Easter music to learn and I pointed out that it had been on the music page of the website for weeks, imagine my dismay when one was unaware that the website had a music section and the other said, 'Oh, do we have a website now?' (We've had a website for five years).
Yes, our church has made a similar shift, with almost all our communications being conveyed through website, email and facebook. It is extraordinarily efficient, cost-effective and ecological. I can remember the days of mass mailings, the large budget required to pay the postage, the amount of volunteer time spent stuffing envelopes and sorting zip codes. The change has been amazing.
But there are people w/o computers. Even more w/o internet connection. Some, as the OP suggests, are elderly or tech-phobic. Others simply can't afford even a basic internet connection, and free wifi in these parts is becoming more & more rare.
The numbers of people who fall into that category are smaller & smaller all the time. But that only makes the problem worse, doesn't it? As it becomes more and more cost-effective to assume everyone has email, what happens to those who do not? When it comes to church communication in particular, that raises concerns for me.
You're completely right, of course, and I don't know the answer.
At least in the case of our parish, for now, the people who currently don't have internet access at home already pay visits to the library to use the internet for other areas of their lives. At the moment the lack of home internet/computers isn't a problem but it could easily become one.
[ 11. June 2012, 22:05: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Earlier this month the bank I use closed its drive-through service. Formerly called motor banking, these are facilities where you can drive up to a window and conduct routine banking business without leaving your car. I don't know how prevalent this is or was outside the U.S.
ATMs accessible from cars remain available.
I have never, ever heard of or seen either of these things!
And actually I find it a bit odd that you see this as shutting out people who can't work with technology. Because a car is a piece of technology that many people don't have or can't use.
Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I have never, ever heard of or seen either of these things!
And actually I find it a bit odd that you see this as shutting out people who can't work with technology. Because a car is a piece of technology that many people don't have or can't use.
Ditto what Orfeo said.
(Apart from starting a sentence with a conjunction of course.)
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
(Apart from starting a sentence with a conjunction of course.)
This long-established usage, which seems to be regaining respectability, long pre-dates any rule against it. A complete thought can stretch over more than one sentence and a conjunction is quite proper.
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
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We have a similar problem in our church. In the last few years we have had quite a few new members who are homeless or living in hostels, some of whom have mental health issues and/or limited English. They are mostly older people also. Paper (plus visits, lifts or other personal interaction) has to be the way we convey information to these people.
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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It's interesting, in our local supermarket, the first week of the month (when the "eagle lands," so to speak and retirees get their Social Security checks) -- about 80 percent of the elders choose the checkout lanes with cashiers. They just don't like the self-checkout lanes.
At our church we have a similar technology gap. I'd say maybe only a third of our people have access to the Internet; part of it is an income/literacy thing, but part of it is lack of access to a reliable provider. Because we tend to have a far-flung membership, I thought it would be helpful for us to have a strong Internet presence, so DP and I worked very hard to develop a nice website, a Facebook page updated daily, a blog for assisting with catechesis -- studying the Sunday lessons and special days on the Church calendar in depth -- but it turned out that no one could, or would, read it. Even the pastor wasn't reading it; I could have been writing praises to Satan every day and he wouldn't have noticed. After I got sick last fall and started having to de-stress/de-complicate my life, that was easily the first thing to go. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
It's interesting, in our local supermarket, the first week of the month (when the "eagle lands," so to speak and retirees get their Social Security checks) -- about 80 percent of the elders choose the checkout lanes with cashiers. They just don't like the self-checkout lanes.
At our church we have a similar technology gap. I'd say maybe only a third of our people have access to the Internet; part of it is an income/literacy thing, but part of it is lack of access to a reliable provider. Because we tend to have a far-flung membership, I thought it would be helpful for us to have a strong Internet presence, so DP and I worked very hard to develop a nice website, a Facebook page updated daily, a blog for assisting with catechesis -- studying the Sunday lessons and special days on the Church calendar in depth -- but it turned out that no one could, or would, read it. Even the pastor wasn't reading it; I could have been writing praises to Satan every day and he wouldn't have noticed. After I got sick last fall and started having to de-stress/de-complicate my life, that was easily the first thing to go.
Our 84-yr-old babushka loves her iPad. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously, if ever you find the time again, do try the website again. I got rid of the Facebook group when I left FB and got rid of the Google+ group because it was unnecessary. I would suggest focussing on the website.
For a long time, the stats showed that most of the visits came from the USA, then Russia, and only then the UK. The site was a source of interest to people abroad. After five years of perseverance, this changed for the first time this year, with most visitors coming from the UK. Many of the longer-standing parishioners from the pre-website days are still oblivious to most of the site content but we now have people who found us through the site and they use it to check service times and any last-minute changes. They submit photographs for the gallery and I'm going to start asking people to write for the articles page. Slowly, people are coming to see it as theirs and realising the benefits of having it.
It just takes patience and perseverance, and some trial and error in working out the right balance between making the content worth visiting the site for and putting too much community-geared stuff on there before the community has had a chance to embrace the website as its own.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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assuming, again, they have access to the internet.
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
We have a similar problem in our church. In the last few years we have had quite a few new members who are homeless or living in hostels, some of whom have mental health issues and/or limited English. They are mostly older people also. Paper (plus visits, lifts or other personal interaction) has to be the way we convey information to these people.
This is a major concern for me. Along with orfeo's comment about people who can't use or just don't own cars (for whatever reason).
Working poor people can often make a one-time purchase of a piece of technology, but it's a burden to have to constantly upgrade it (as you must with computers now to keep up with the internet) and to have to pay ongoing fees (such as for internet access, or a cell phone plan).
When people have to choose between paying the rent and buying food - a situation facing more and more families now - having to also choose between rent and food and access to basic services via technology is just cruel. That applies mostly to online services; anyone can walk up to an ATM (although there may be fees associated with them; and banking is getting more and more difficult to afford if you're poor). I know if I were in a situation where I had to work really hard to avoid bank fees (which really creep up on you when you're low-income - you don't have enough money to meet the minimum balance for free checking; you're more likely to accidentally bounce a check and incur NSF fees, etc...) I would much prefer being able to deal with an actual person.
The technology can be good for others, though, as Michael Astley has pointed out. I suffer from depression, and often prefer to live virtually at times - email and facebook over phone calls, e.g. But then again, it's not healthy for me to do what I prefer; sometimes a phone call is what you really need to wrest your way out of a spell of depression. It's just that it's so hard to do, and at least email and facebook mean you don't become completely isolated and don't lose touch with the outside world (or your social circles).
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
assuming, again, they have access to the internet.
That's right.
I wasn't dismissing the subject of the OP but tangentially rather sympathising with LutheranChik's frustration, to which I can relate.
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on
:
Tried to edit, but the window closed while I was typing this:
ETA: I want to be clear, though, with my comments about poverty. Poor people are actually really resourceful and resilient on the whole; having to improvise and make do with what's on hand, they can be very creative. Things we jokingly call "ghetto fixes" where I'm from, anyway, are actually admirable to my mind. I'm working class, myself, not poor but sometimes swimming in the same waters. I want to be clear that I'm not implying in any way that poor people have trouble using technology when they can get their hands on it! Another thing - I personally don't own a cell phone, don't buy new computers, don't have cable, etc., because those are expenses I can cut out of my budget as a grad student. So in my imagination, having a cell phone is a luxury for people who can afford it. Yet I know people who are legitimately poor, not just working class, who have cell phones. It's a matter of juggling your own resources and needs in your own situation. Sometimes a cell phone replaces both a land line and a computer (and maybe even a TV). You never know what someone is sacrificing to be able to have something like a computer or cell phone (e.g., their house may be falling apart and they can't afford to fix it; they may not be able to afford paying their heating bill, etc). If someone's on welfare and owns a cell phone, it doesn't mean they're playing the system.
Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on
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I'm fine with automated systems where they really save time - buying a rail ticket, checking in at an airport, motorway toll booths (rare in the UK where most roads are financed from taxation, but there's one I use often).
Others, though, are time-wasters whose only value is to an employer who is saving on staff costs. Automated tills where I'll be turning items over and over looking for the barcode, waiting an age for someone to confirm that I am indeed old enough to buy a bottle of wine - or that the 'unexpected item in the bagging area' doesn't actually exist. Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
And yes, these systems will exclude those who can't cope with them if we lose any choice, if there aren't real people available as an alternative. Adding to those already excluded from much of life by illiteracy, poverty, mental health problems, learning difficulties etc. I suspect this is just going to happen anyway.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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A major frustration of the moment--
Online job applications used as the ONLY way of getting a job as (say) a grocery bagger. I have people with limited English and less tech skills turn up and ask me to walk them through the two hour online application process for what is essentially a no-skills minimum wage job--and why is it anyway that the online applications are three times as long as the old fashioned paper ones? Whoever comes up with these things seems to think we all have unlimited time and patience to hunt down the name of our cousin's sister-in-law's aunt and the address of the first place we ever babysat.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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YES. Another factor in why the homeless can't "just get a job". Curiously, a lot of otherwise well-educated folks just don't seem to get this.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
I agree with you on most of the things you list, and the self-checkout thing with caveats, but I disagree with this. I know that it can be frustrating to try to navigate through IVRs to get to speak to someone but often the reason there are so many options and so many recorded announcements is precisely so that you actually stand a chance of getting through to someone.
They work on the same principle as the websites discussed in a recent hell thread, where you only get to the customer service phone number after you navigate your way through help and advice pages. The intention is that they weed out the time-wasters.
People who have worked in call centres and seen this from the other side will know what I mean. People phone companies with all sorts of nonsense that has nothing to do with anything, or with basic questions that anybody with a brain cell should really be able to work out, and these are the people who clog up the call queue with the result that people with genuine enquiries end up having to wait considerably longer than necessary. I think that businesses try to reduce the effect of this by giving these people the information they want before they actually connect, thus freeing up some lines.
Having experienced both sides of this, I don't mind tedious IVRs so much.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
I agree with you on most of the things you list, and the self-checkout thing with caveats, but I disagree with this. I know that it can be frustrating to try to navigate through IVRs to get to speak to someone but often the reason there are so many options and so many recorded announcements is precisely so that you actually stand a chance of getting through to someone.
They work on the same principle as the websites discussed in a recent hell thread, where you only get to the customer service phone number after you navigate your way through help and advice pages. The intention is that they weed out the time-wasters.
People who have worked in call centres and seen this from the other side will know what I mean. People phone companies with all sorts of nonsense that has nothing to do with anything, or with basic questions that anybody with a brain cell should really be able to work out, and these are the people who clog up the call queue with the result that people with genuine enquiries end up having to wait considerably longer than necessary. I think that businesses try to reduce the effect of this by giving these people the information they want before they actually connect, thus freeing up some lines.
Having experienced both sides of this, I don't mind tedious IVRs so much.
I think, though, that it's a question of design. Because I've dealt with some IVRs that are perfectly fine and sensible, and dealt with some others that are difficult and frustrating. Sensible design of options is absolutely critical to the experience.
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The closure is part of the bank's long-term strategy to cut costs through automation by encouraging customers to utilize ATMs and web banking instead of tellers. While there haven't been any public announcements of the strategy or timeline, it's clear that the goal is to eliminate the use of human tellers entirely.
If there hasn't been any public announcement, how do you know about it?
This table from the FDIC indicates that there were more bank branches in the US at the end of 2011 than at any time since the FDIC began in 1934, and 2008 saw a record increase in the number of branches.
This is not a good example of "products and services that are available only to people who are able to interact with technology."
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I have never, ever heard of or seen either of these things!
And actually I find it a bit odd that you see this as shutting out people who can't work with technology. Because a car is a piece of technology that many people don't have or can't use.
Ditto what Orfeo said.
(Apart from starting a sentence with a conjunction of course.)
Agreeing with both of you.
There used to be a drive through bottle shop near me for many years, but it shut a while ago. Too many robberies. As for cheques, I paid the deposit on this place with a personal cheque but stamp duty and the balance was done with a bank cheque on an electronic transfer of funds.
I would hardly write a cheque a year.Other than that, I consider myself fairly computer literate and have been using them since mid-1970s. Bulletin boards and internet.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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quote:
Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems.
Amen! I know that I am falling off the technology edge on this movement. I've tried and tried to navigate these things in a number of stores foe a couple of years now. I have an about 75% failure rate with them, and I feel like such an idiot. So I've been rude to poor attendants (and I'd worked retail for years, so I'm usually most sympathetic). I've given up. I'll only shop at stores that have human check-out lines available. So Fresh and Easy (US Tesco) is off my list. Now at my local CVS I get surly if they insist I use the self check-out while they hover over me!
[ 12. June 2012, 03:03: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
A complete thought can stretch over more than one sentence. And a conjunction is quite proper.
There we go. Much better.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems. We now have a number of completely unattended gas stations.
All our gas stations have been unattended for many years. At ours, totally, we pay by card and put the gas in ourselves. I find it fine.
But I never use automatic checkouts - it's not the technology which puts me off, I'm fine with technology, it's the awful voice which shouts at people about 'bagging areas' arrrgh!
Our bank has gone full circle and now has real people at the counter.
I'm OK with online banking - but when telephone banking I had my card blocked every time. I am dyslexic and have special difficulty with numbers - typing numbers almost always has me reversing at least two, which, on a phone keypad, simply doesn't work. When I phoned them to explain the problem they were unhelpful, so I didn't bother with the service again.
Horses for courses, I guess.
Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on
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People being people will always try to save either time...or money...and sometimes both. Yet the outcome is what suits most people, most of the time. As mentioned earlier, we will possibly always have exclusion, of some people, some of the time.
Which is understandable except for two things:
What did Jesus have to say about people who are excluded or are doing the exclusing?
And what happenes when it's our dearest and dearest or ourselves who are on the recieving end of that exclusion?
(for exclusion is what it feels like.....)
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on
:
Any change is going to benefit some people and be a disadvantage for others. Personally I find face to face interaction stressful. I love automated systems. In my perfect world, every single thing you might want to buy would come out of a vending machine. I absolutely love being able to do my research online and order things online rather than having to navigate the social minefield of dealing with salespeople. For people who struggle with the technology, or who have a very low IQ, automated check outs will be difficult. For people like me (ASD in my case, but I'd imagine people with social anxiety or severe depression might also benefit) who prefer dealing with machines, they are a relief. I can imagine them being great for people whose hearing is impaired, too, since everything they say comes with subtitles on the screen. Not so good if you can't see well.
I don't want to see humans disappear from these settings completely. Well, okay, if it were just for me I'd love it, but I realise that many people prefer to have humans around, and there are people who will struggle if the machines take over. For my own part, though, I am incredibly glad that I was born into a time when technology has become so ubiquitous - I would be significantly more disabled without it.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Phone systems that take me through seemingly endless menus before accepting that I really do need to talk to a sentient being.
I agree with you on most of the things you list, and the self-checkout thing with caveats, but I disagree with this. I know that it can be frustrating to try to navigate through IVRs to get to speak to someone but often the reason there are so many options and so many recorded announcements is precisely so that you actually stand a chance of getting through to someone.
These are hell for people with hearing problems. When there is a human being on the other end, I can explain that I am hard-of-hearing and would they please speak louder. With many of these systems, you can get a human being by pressing 0. Failing that, I hang up and redial. After I have listened ten or fifteen times, I can often figure out enough of what they're saying.
Moo
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
There's also an issue with this on the supply side, ISTM, which is that computers are now doing things that previously would have supplied someone with a (often unskilled) job. How many people are ending up out of work as a result of automating bloody everything?
I know it's more cost effective but it still bothers me.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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As of about six weeks ago the college where I work only accepts online applications from prospective students. Though we (genuinely) will help you do it if you can't or won't on your own.
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The problem is that there is a sizable (5%? 10%? who knows) minority of people who don't have the intellectual aptitude to figure these things out. These are the people who could never get their VCR to quit blinking ten years ago. People who can, by most other measures, live independently, hold jobs, and engage with society.
If someone really is too stupid to use a VCR they ought not to be driving a car which is a hell of a lot more complicated, as well as being dangerous. Yes, there are people who can't do the online stuff but for most of them its age and nervousness, not intelligence.
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars. The move to online payments and money transfer has made banking availble to hundreds of millions of people all over the world who had no access to it before becauise they didn't have things like cars and lived far from the nearest bank branch.
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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
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Grocery stores and fast-food chains have been experimenting (unsuccessfully, so far) with replacing checkout workers with automated systems.
Amen! I know that I am falling off the technology edge on this movement. I've tried and tried to navigate these things in a number of stores foe a couple of years now. I have an about 75% failure rate with them, and I feel like such an idiot.
I'd use the self-service checkouts if they didn't keep yelling at you all the time. And the shop staff hover around and tell you what to do. I go to a shop to buys stuff, not to waste time being given orders. If they would only leave you alone to get on with it.
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
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I think I may have chosen a poor opening example that has resulted in the conversation veering off into anti-automobile territory. Even so, I have known people -- younger people -- who are capable of driving safely who have trouble dealing with computers. Part of the reason is that they learn their car and interact in a roadway environment that requires, at most, limited literacy. While, on the other hand, web sites, ATM machines, stamp vending machines, gas pumps, and automated checkouts have widely varying designs which change over time such that each one has to be learned anew when it is encountered.
Computers pose a problem of their own in that many people -- I'd guess 25% or more of adults in the 21-40 age range who have more or less been around them all their lives -- can't maintain them without frequent outside assistance. They get someone in their peer or family group who will help them overcome minor obstacles, or make extensive use of fee based support services.
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Originally posted by ken:
I'd use the self-service checkouts if they didn't keep yelling at you all the time. And the shop staff hover around and tell you what to do. I go to a shop to buys stuff, not to waste time being given orders. If they would only leave you alone to get on with it.
One of the psychosocial changes that's taken place over the last ten years is that people will now put up with an amazing amount of crap from a machine before they give up. Over time, the human alternatives are going away. Many phone trees won't let you dial 0 and speak to a human being any more, and people tolerate this in part because they don't have effective alternatives.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
I think I may have chosen a poor opening example that has resulted in the conversation veering off into anti-automobile territory. Even so, I have known people -- younger people -- who are capable of driving safely who have trouble dealing with computers.
And my 10-year-old nephew is pretty handy with a computer but can't drive a car. What's your point?
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
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Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society. Do you believe that your 10 year old nephew lacks the aptitude to drive? Do his parents/guardians lack the ability to drive? As a result, is he truly shut out from those opportunities accessible to him only via automobile?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars..
Definitely not true in the US. Definitely not true in Africa. Can't speak for other parts of the world.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society.
Yes we are. Just as previous gateway technologies like reading and driving. All exclude a large minority of people.
Online access to banking, government services, public transport timetables, retail, and so on certainly excludes fewer people than driving does.
Whether or not it excludes more than the neccessity for literacy does is complicated - I guess that some things will be available to more than before, others to fewer, but I doubt if we know enough yet to be sure which.
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Computers pose a problem of their own in that many people -- I'd guess 25% or more of adults in the 21-40 age range who have more or less been around them all their lives -- can't maintain them without frequent outside assistance.
Irrelevant. You don't have to be able to maintain a computer to use it. Any more than you have to be able to maintain a car to use it ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
)
What about all the other systems we have in our houses we don't know how to maintain? I probably couldn't fix my plumbing or my drains or my gas supply to save my life, and wouldn't try. I could probably install or fix the electrical supply but in practice I don't, and I bet most people couldn't - certainly far more than 25% What about TV? Or plain old telephones? Who knows how to maintain them? Even if you need frequent outside assistance, most people manage.
And doubly irrelevant because online services are accessed through all sorts of devices, noit just general-purpose computers. The most common is probably mobile phones, and almost everybody has a mobile phone these days and almost no-one has the slightest idea how they work or any ability to fix them when they go wrong. They are far less exclusive than cars - or even than literacy. I know people who use smartphones who can't read and write properly. Online services can also be accessed thorough games consoles, and increasingly through cable TV.
Yes these technologies exclude some people. Too many. We ought to collectively be helping them. But that's a political problem not a technological one. Probably it needs s a more robust and liberal welfare state, not a return to old technology. Public libraries in your local neighbourhood that are actiually open when you need to go to them, and can get you online for free. Decent schools. Adult education that yu can access at any age. Social services that can provide the elderly, disabled, and ill with some assistance to give in their own homes. Care homes for those who really can't any more. Respite care for the family or carers of severely disabled people. Welfare payments for the unemployed. Affordable and convenient public transport. All those boring but useful things that we nearly, so nearly, managed to provide for each other in the 20th century and now seem to be drawing away from - those are a whole lot more important than whether or not the bank wants you to use its website.
Posted by Edith (# 16978) on
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Ken for Prime Minister.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society. Do you believe that your 10 year old nephew lacks the aptitude to drive? Do his parents/guardians lack the ability to drive? As a result, is he truly shut out from those opportunities accessible to him only via automobile?
In all seriousness, do you not remember what life was like before you could drive?
I certainly remember what it was like in my later teenage years, before I got my licence at age 19. There were all sorts of things that it was far easier for me to do once I had access to a car. I also remember what it was like when I spent some time at the age of 24 relying on a bicycle for transport.
ANY system shuts out some people. A car is technology. It's not technology I ever imagined being particularly important for banking, but you apparently live in a part of the world where banking-from-your-car is (or was) viable. But it's no less technological than the other things you think of as technological.
Your general point about automation is an interesting one. But your choice of example is really bad, and even after you recognised its flaws you STILL tried to run with it by talking about people who can drive cars but can't use computers. Which really doesn't make sense to me. That's simply not a demonstration of "a person who can't use technology". It's a demonstration of a person who likes one form of technology over another.
And yes, people prefer one form of technology over another. Which is a good argument for providing more than one means of doing something.
However, living in a country where the idea of drive-through banking is unheard of, you are certainly not going to convince me that a car is a particularly vital component of banking. It might be a useful thing for getting TO the bank, but frankly I've got an urge to say that drive-through banking is a total extravagance. Park the car somewhere nearby, get out of it and WALK into a bank.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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Yes, well said, Ken. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
A major frustration of the moment--
Online job applications used as the ONLY way of getting a job as (say) a grocery bagger. I have people with limited English and less tech skills turn up and ask me to walk them through the two hour online application process for what is essentially a no-skills minimum wage job...
A homeless friend is frustrated that the on-line job form takes 2 hours to fill out and the public library limits computer use to one hour. There's no coordination between the companies offering the minimum wage jobs and the providers of access to the on-line-only applications. (Or it's a way of weeding out the homeless and very poor from those jobs?)
Meanwhile, several friends have dial-up only, or no internet, because the cost of high speed internet is really high in USA, but being unwired means they don't get notices of things their groups are doing unless someone takes special effort to call.
More than call -- choral groups often use email attachments to distribute music mark-ups, performance instructions with diagrams of parking areas and charts of who stands where. Some choirs distribute next Sunday's hymns via email, churches send readers the readings (in the one translation to be used, with selected alternative verses included or excluded) via email attachment. Someone without internet cannot just be called, a volunteer has to go to their house to deliver the info (or the info prepared 3 days earlier so it can be mailed).
Participation by the unwired is extra work for the coordinator. Many won't do the extra work.
One internet-less friend calls unwillingness to phone her with info that was emailed to others "arrogant," but the volunteer coordinators are already putting in a lot of time and don't see value in extra effort to include one more whose membership is not critical to the group. Or they just don't think about it -- write an email, one click and the email went to 30 people, task done. That 2 have no email and need to be called and arrangements made to get the attachment info to them, is out of mind.
I understand both sides. Not having your own internet connection is isolating. When people with a decent income and the brains to handle it choose no internet ("I like the peace," "I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost"), whose job is it to overcome the isolation? When people can't afford it, how can they be integrated into a world that works by wire?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
[qb]
Your general point about automation is an interesting one. But your choice of example is really bad, and even after you recognised its flaws you STILL tried to run with it by talking about people who can drive cars but can't use computers. Which really doesn't make sense to me. That's simply not a demonstration of "a person who can't use technology". It's a demonstration of a person who likes one form of technology over another..
Rather than computers v. cars, a better distinction would be internet access v. cars.
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Originally posted by orfeo:
And yes, people prefer one form of technology over another. Which is a good argument for providing more than one means of doing something.
The problem is really about more than just preference-- it's a problem of access. But yes, I agree, the solution is to provide multiple means of access, since there are people who are shut out in different ways.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Yes, sorry, "preference" was rather sloppy terminology.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
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Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars..
Definitely not true in the US. Definitely not true in Africa. Can't speak for other parts of the world.
Sorry what's not true? That online access is more widespread than cars are? Sorry, but that is true, just, in the USA and its true by a long way in many parts of Africa.
Money transfer and online payment by mobile phone has become the norm in huge parts of Africa. And is certainly more common than car driving.
For example there are probably just over a million motor vehicles in Kenya, about half of which are private cars (the rest mostly small pick-up trucks, many of which are used as matatus, a sort of semi-formal minbus). But Kenya's largest online banking service, which is accessed via mobile phone, passed 17 million subscribers at the end of last year. (Out of the 25 million mobile phone users - maybe fifty for every landline phone)
Or Nigeria - a bit more prosperous on average than Kenya, but with a worse history of government provision of infrastructure - less than ten million motor vehicles but at least 90 million mobile phones.
M-banking (horrid jargon) is taking off worldwide, but more in poorer countries than richer ones, precisely because those places don't have the on-the-ground infrastructure we took centuries to build - especially in rural areas. If you live five miles from the nearest electrical supply or phone line, and fifty miles from the nearest town, and you make less than a thousand dollars a year, you are not going to be able to walk to the bank to do your business or to afford a car to drivbe there. But you can afford a mobile phone. Maybe you can share one with your brothers or neighbours. And nowadays that is a gateway technology to all sorts of things.
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A homeless friend is frustrated that the on-line job form takes 2 hours to fill out and the public library limits computer use to one hour. There's no coordination between the companies offering the minimum wage jobs and the providers of access to the on-line-only applications. (Or it's a way of weeding out the homeless and very poor from those jobs?)
Meanwhile, several friends have dial-up only, or no internet, because the cost of high speed internet is really high in USA, but being unwired means they don't get notices of things their groups are doing unless someone takes special effort to call.
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere. One thing that I have begun to do is take the used laptops from work that we would just end up junking and marrying them up with folks who don't have one. I imagine most employers would be happy to accommodate this kind of thing, as long as you're not selling them. Our tech support people go over the units to make sure that they are in good working order.
My wife is a town librarian, and she often encounters people who could use a free laptop. Her library has WiFi available as well as computers that can be reserved for the typical one hour. The WiFi is unlimited. While you need to be careful when you offer the laptop because it would be easy to make somebody feel patronized, if you have a working relationship with the recipient and make it clear that the computer would just be tossed out anyway, people seem genuinely appreciative that you were thinking of them. FWIW
--Tom Clune
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, access by car only is more exclusive than online access because more people have mobile phones or internet access than have cars. Yes, even in America. Outside America online its overwhelmingly more accessible than cars..
Definitely not true in the US. Definitely not true in Africa. Can't speak for other parts of the world.
Sorry what's not true? That online access is more widespread than cars are? Sorry, but that is true, just, in the USA and its true by a long way in many parts of Africa.
Money transfer and online payment by mobile phone has become the norm in huge parts of Africa. And is certainly more common than car driving.
In East Africa where I work, yes, cell phones are ubiquitous. But internet access is limited to a very few cafes in only the largest cities. Yes, cars are a luxury but most everyone knows someone they can bum a ride off of. Banking is limited to a very elite class and ex-pats, money is transferred only thru Western Union. Online payments are impossible due to lack of internet access.
In L.A. where I live, a good percentage of the homeless I work with have some sort of car. None have internet access.
But again, huge differences country to country, place to place, person to person. Which is why ken's suggestions are so important, as well as the suggestion to have multiple means of access.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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Which part of East Africa?
Posted by Edith (# 16978) on
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I'd like to know that. I used to teach in Nkokonjeru in Uganda
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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Zambia, which is actually more central than eastern.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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Very different history from Kenya I think - which is the only country in Africa I've ever lived in, decades agao but I strill try to follw what goes on there. Though the African country I am most in touch with now is probably Nigeria since there are so many Nigerians in our church congregtion. Last week's church Men's Group meeting started slowly with a ten or fifteen minute bitch about Nigerian politics - I could follow the bits that weren't in Yoruba:)
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A homeless friend is frustrated that the on-line job form takes 2 hours to fill out and the public library limits computer use to one hour.
Meanwhile, several friends have dial-up only, or no internet, because the cost of high speed internet is really high in USA.
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In cities maybe. I live in a tiny town surrounded by many miles of rural. The closest free wifi for rural dwellers is easily a 20 minute drive and $5 gas away. That's not conducive to checking email every day, which you have to do if a job offer is via email, or of your bowling club or chorus communicates irregularly via email.
My little town newly has a few places with free Wifi, but many of the towns within an hour's drive have no library, no McDonalds, and no (known) free Wifi.
quote:
I ... take the used laptops from work that we would just end up junking and marrying them up with folks who don't have one... My wife is a town librarian, and she often encounters people who could use a free laptop.
Really great that your company lets you do that; some companies won't give away anything that might bring in a few bucks, some friends have computers their company SOLD to them (cheap) when upgrading. Wish more would do like yours. But then, there's such reluctance to give anything of value to a person with no certain address because of the assumption they'll sell it for booze.
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on
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The world is set up in such a way as to exclude people. Always has been. Nobody means to do it, it just happens as the majority responds to what is easy and convenient for them, and the other stuff becomes impractical. A set of people is getting excluded by technology (and that's not a good thing) but I suspect that the number of people who have always been excluded to some extent who are now benefitting from the new technology is greater than the number of people who are now being excluded. But these people who are now benefitting are often people who've been easy to forget, because they're socially or physically isolated. If you are unable to get out much due to illness or disability, being able to order groceries online rather than having to send someone to the shops on your behalf, is great. Keeping up with others online rather than being lonely is great. I think a lot of us weren't all that conscious of how isolated some people were, *because* they were shut away behind closed doors and didn't want to bother anyone. If elderly people are nervous about the technology then that's a shame because they actually stand to gain a great deal from it if they manage to use it effectively - and there's nothing inherent in being old which makes you unable to use the internet. It's just not what many people are used to.
I know a fair number of adults, myself included, who can use computers but are unable to drive. In my case, I am almost certainly incapable of learning to drive because of executive dysfunction issues related to the ASD. Driving excludes a large number of people, and having a friend or relative who can drive doesn't entirely mitigate that exclusion (any more than having a relative with internet access would mitigate that exclusion). There's a wide variety of medical conditions which can prevent you from driving, and of course many of the people who are hit hardest are elderly people who've always been able to drive but later become unable to.
Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
The world is set up in such a way as to exclude people. Always has been. Nobody means to do it, it just happens as the majority responds to what is easy and convenient for them, and the other stuff becomes impractical. A set of people is getting excluded by technology (and that's not a good thing) but I suspect that the number of people who have always been excluded to some extent who are now benefitting from the new technology is greater than the number of people who are now being excluded. But these people who are now benefitting are often people who've been easy to forget, because they're socially or physically isolated. If you are unable to get out much due to illness or disability, being able to order groceries online rather than having to send someone to the shops on your behalf, is great. Keeping up with others online rather than being lonely is great. I think a lot of us weren't all that conscious of how isolated some people were, *because* they were shut away behind closed doors and didn't want to bother anyone. If elderly people are nervous about the technology then that's a shame because they actually stand to gain a great deal from it if they manage to use it effectively - and there's nothing inherent in being old which makes you unable to use the internet. It's just not what many people are used to.
I can second everything you're saying here. My health has taken a sharp nosedive in the last couple of years, this past year especially, and if it weren't for being able to shop online for both groceries and other needed items as well as do online banking I'd be SOL on many occasions. I've had to give up driving for the time being.
My mother is one of those left out of technology, but she has my siblings and I to do whatever she needs and I can take care of a lot of her shopping needs online as well. She doesn't drive, but fortunately her church is keeping the low tech methods of snail mail newsletters as well as email for the technologically able and volunteers that pick up those who are unable to drive. On the rare occasion that illness forces her to stay home for an extended period of time one of the pastors will do a home visit. I do wish that more places would keep means in place for those who left out of the technology.
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
The world is set up in such a way as to exclude people. Always has been. Nobody means to do it, it just happens as the majority responds to what is easy and convenient for them, and the other stuff becomes impractical.
You're right that the world is set up that way, but wrong that it is not intentional. If we are the stock trader, we want to have the inside information and use it against our trading partner. It is a rare parent, indeed, who does not want to give an edge to his kids -- "It's not enough that I succeed: you must fail." We know in our hearts that our beloved seed is not particularly special, and is prone to laziness and cutting corners (where, oh where, did they ever get such failings...). We want them to have the best school -- not a school adequate to their ability, but a school that will allow them to go to the front of the line when it comes to jobs, marriage, etc.
Pretending that we want everyone to have the same advantages is counter-productive. We need to acknowledge that cheating is in our very nature or we will not be able to respond as a society in a manner that works to thwart our individual failings. Or so ISTM.
--Tom Clune
[ 13. June 2012, 12:52: Message edited by: tclune ]
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Some intentional, some not. An old local church has half a flight of steps. (We have no snow or floods, no functional need for ground floor to be above ground level.)
I doubt anyone built a church building with steps for the purpose of keeping old folks and others with knee problems away. It was probably a cost thing, saved digging that many more feet of basement. Having a basement for the fellowship hall meant, of course, no one who has trouble with stairs could participate in events, but they wouldn't be in the building anyway so no one noticed.
And people just assumed as you get old you stay home more, "too bad Jane can't get to church anymore because of the stairs, but that's what happens when you get old."
Today it's "too bad Beth can't get to church anymore because she can't drive anymore, but that's what happens when you get old." Or "Too bad Greg doesn't receive notices of our club's activities, but that's what happens if you don't have or don't check email." ("Not my job to do anything about it.")
No one designed the internet to be the way computerless have to apply for minimum wage jobs. It just happened by confluence of various independent profit-oriented interests. No one has a profit stake in changing the system to include those who can't contribute to the profits. But yes, it might also be taken advantage of to screen out most of the very poor applicants so as to hire only those with middle class speech patterns for the low paying public contact jobs like salesclerk.
Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on
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My experience in west Africa (Sénégal, Mauritania and the Gambia) was that even the smaller towns had internet cafés and that the connection speeds were decent. Sénégal had invested quite a bit of money into internet infrastructure and it paid off.
Most people didn't have cars but public transport tended to be rather good. Cities were very walkable and there was a dense network of bush taxis which transported people between cities. You could go to the local gare routière and, for a few CFA franc (less than a dollar), secure a seat on a small 7 seater car that would take you almost anywhere. That's how I got around west Africa when I vacationed there in 2008.
In the early days of the internet in North America cyber-cafés were quite common, but now they are as common as phone booths. If you are homeless, or don't can't afford a computer/isp, and the local library doesn't have free access, it's pretty hard to get online. The sad thing, in the U.S. at least, is that libraries are often dismissed as anachronisms and are having their hours cut or being closed in many places. Budget cuts often affect them before many other services.
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society. Do you believe that your 10 year old nephew lacks the aptitude to drive? Do his parents/guardians lack the ability to drive? As a result, is he truly shut out from those opportunities accessible to him only via automobile?
In all seriousness, do you not remember what life was like before you could drive?
I certainly remember what it was like in my later teenage years, before I got my licence at age 19.
This is a pond difference. I've been driving since I was 15. Sure, I remember what life was like before that -- other people drove me around. In the place where I lived it was the only practical means of transport much of the year since there is no public transport and we have ice and snow. Predictably, everybody drives or has someone who does it for them, or moves someplace else. There are very very few people who spend a lifetime being unable to drive because they aren't capable of doing it.
In contrast I believe there are quite a number of people who will never figure out how to deal with ATM machines, automated checkouts, and online job applications, no matter how hard they try and no matter how much training they have.
quote:
However, living in a country where the idea of drive-through banking is unheard of, you are certainly not going to convince me that a car is a particularly vital component of banking. It might be a useful thing for getting TO the bank, but frankly I've got an urge to say that drive-through banking is a total extravagance. Park the car somewhere nearby, get out of it and WALK into a bank.
Read the opening post. It is not drive-through banking that has been discontinued, it's drive through banking with human tellers. There is still an ATM at the drive through. This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
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While various cost and connectivity barriers exist, I see as the main problem the large number of people who lack the cognitive ability to interact with computers effectively. It is a greater barrier than basic literacy.
[ 13. June 2012, 19:51: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
In rural areas that lack good broadband service there is no public WiFi available because there is no cost effective backhaul for it.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
Actually, not even that. Here in L.A. most of the Starbucks and other places that used to offer free wifi require you to make a purchase before giving you the password. The only other reliable source of free wifi has been the public libraries, which as was noted upthread, are now being closed or reduced to very limited hours due to budget constraints.
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
Noted? Asserted without evidence, more like.
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
In rural areas that lack good broadband service there is no public WiFi available because there is no cost effective backhaul for it.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "rural." My sister lives in western Michigan, which seems pretty back-water to me. She has no problem using her laptop at a variety of locations -- including the local library -- without getting an internet connection herself. It may be more difficult to find a WiFi hotspot in the middle of Montana, but around here every MacDonald's provides free WiFi -- and I live in what is considered to be a remote area for Massachusetts.
--Tom Clune
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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a MacDonald's with wifi? Wow, classy.
Last winter when we had an epic power outtage (5 days.. probably not epic for some, but here in So. Cal, unprecedented) we searched high and low for wifi. Only places we could find were Starbucks and Peets. Peets won our loyalty by waiving the 1 hour limit for the duration of the outtage (besides, their coffee is better). We formed a nice community-- sharing outlets to recharge our various electronic devices and exchanging Edison rumors.
Tangent out.
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
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In the UK there is a network called The Cloud which gives free wifi if you sign up. McDonalds is part of it, as are sandwich chains, pizza places etc. Starbucks is still giving it free too.
Not much use, though, if you're out in the sticks.
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
While various cost and connectivity barriers exist, I see as the main problem the large number of people who lack the cognitive ability to interact with computers effectively. It is a greater barrier than basic literacy.
This post may prove that I'm a dick, but how is it possible to be cognitively unable to use a computer unless you're so cognitively impaired that you'd have difficulty living in society without special support anyway?
Computers have been around in pretty much their present form for about 17 years (going by the release date of Windows 95). It seems to me that people who haven't worked out how to use them by now have either made a conscious decision to be technophobes, or else have cognitive difficulties that would hold them back anyway.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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I think "cognitive ability" is a bit of red herring in a lot of cases. Most of the people I know who don't have internet are elderly.
My Grandad, for example, is 89 years old and I don't think he'd even know where the on button is on a computer, much less how to do his banking over the internet. He's not thick and he still has a goodly proportion of his marbles, but learning it would definitely take him longer than a younger person.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Once on a Sunday, I visited my grandfather in the old people's home were he lived. In the communal space they had just installed around 10 computers with internet connection.
I asked him: "Let's look around on internet a bit!" It took a bit of convincing, but when I told him it would probably have old pictures of the town where he was born, he got interested.
However, we couldn't log on to computers. The people who work there told us we could get an 'internet pass' at the earliest next Wednesday
Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on
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There are many people who work with computers at their place of employment who know only what they absolutely have to know and have no interest in learning anything else about them, how to take advantage of services offered online or even do email and surf the web. Sometimes it's a case of willful shutting oneself out.
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
In the place where I lived it was the only practical means of transport much of the year since there is no public transport and we have ice and snow. Predictably, everybody drives or has someone who does it for them, or moves someplace else. There are very very few people who spend a lifetime being unable to drive because they aren't capable of doing it.
In contrast I believe there are quite a number of people who will never figure out how to deal with ATM machines, automated checkouts, and online job applications, no matter how hard they try and no matter how much training they have.
I don't believe that there are very very few people who spend a lifetime unable to drive because they aren't capable of doing it. There may be very few in the particular community in which you live because as you say, they have to move somewhere else. They still exist though, even if they do have to move to a city where there is adequate public transport in order to avoid being completely excluded from society. We're talking about everyone with poor vision that can't be corrected with glasses, everyone with epilepsy, a huge number of people with cognitive or physical impairments. The thing about driving is that it's inherently exclusive: there are many people out there who simply cannot drive safely. I'm not saying that driving is bad - it's very useful for people who can do it. It does, however, illustrate the point that I made upthread. Cars appeared and they were convenient for a lot of people, and therefore the places where they became popular started being organised for the benefit of motorists.
By contrast, the internet is not *inherently* exclusive - in fact at its core it is a fantastically inclusive bit of technology. With the use of the right hardware and software you can make it useful for almost anyone. Most of the issues on this thread have been to do with access rather than the technology itself. The poorest people are screwed over in a vast array of ways, and some of these people being unable to get internet access is one of these. The answer to that is not trying to turn the clock back - it's improving access.
Of the people who don't use (for example) ATMs, how many are really, genuinely incapable of using them? I'd imagine that that's pretty low. Some people don't like machines; some people are set in their ways and don't want to learn a new way of doing things; some people just prefer getting human interaction wherever they can. These people show up whenever a new technology appears because there will always be people like this. But incapable of using one and incapable of learning how? That's surely going to be a much, much smaller proportion of people than are unable to drive.
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I think "cognitive ability" is a bit of red herring in a lot of cases. Most of the people I know who don't have internet are elderly.
I see the unwillingness of many elderly people to use computers to be a transient phenomenon due to lack of exposure to computers earlier in life.
I certainly don't intent "cognitive ability" as a red herring. For an ATM, you have to be able to remember a PIN, which may change over the years for various reasons and which you're not supposed to write down. You have to be able to read well enough to navigate the menus, which vary from one machine to the next and vary over time, and which lack any cues or hints for the less literate.
With computers the barriers are higher. There's more to memorize and more to read. Even people who are reasonably bright can inadvertently delete an icon or move something to a location where they can't find it.
The extent of social stratification by cognitive ability is much greater than most people realize. Those people you haven't seen since they dropped out of school after 8th grade are still out there somewhere.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The extent of social stratification by cognitive ability is much greater than most people realize. Those people you haven't seen since they dropped out of school after 8th grade are still out there somewhere.
Oh yes. I worked in banks most of my life and was initially surprised at the number of people who were illiterate. Every week, I would show them where to make their "X", look up their account number, explain at length why they couldn't put $50 in saving, $50 on their gas bill and get $50 cash back from their $135 check. If they asked, I would try to show them how to "get money out the wall," but it was just too much for them. However, I would sometimes find their social security or Kroger card in the ATM's card catcher, so I know they were trying.
I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. My father was very eagar to learn how to use the computer but he found out it wasn't like buying a TV. He couldn't just bring it home and plug it in. I wonder how many people, educated or not, have new pieces of technology sitting around unused because the start up procedure was so complicated?
I'm really sort of glad that some people still need cashiers and sales clerks. Human contact is a good thing and some of us are much better able to communicate in person, with the help of smiles and gestures, than simply through typing.
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
a MacDonald's with wifi? Wow, classy.
Tangent out.
/Tangent back in.
MacDonald's has been making a concerted effort to move upscale. They have a variety of latte-like coffees and muffin-like things now. I imagine that the WiFi is part of this makeover. If you haven't been to a MacDonald's recently, you might find that your local MickeyD's has WiFi, too.
/Tangent back out.
--Tom Clune
Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on
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From what I can gather, Bartolemo's bank still has human cashiers, the only change is that it doesn't have them at a drive-thru desk. This means that he has to actually get out of his 2 ton protective steel shell, go into the bank thus unclad and actually stand at the desk to meet other people in the flesh, possibly next to another person at the next desk. This is more human contact, not less. I'm all for it!
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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I am seventy-eight years old, and I can handle computers well enough to post on the ship and order stuff over the internet.
However, many websites do not give sufficiently explicit instructions for me. I want to be told exactly what to do next. Every year in the late fall, people with Medicare D can choose to change insurers if they want to. The first few years the process was easy. Then the website became so confusing that I couldn't navigate it.
Given that everyone using Medicare D is over sixty-five, you would think they would try to make things as simple as possible.
Moo
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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There is no doubt that bad website design (and bad computer program design more generally) can be a complete barrier and turn-off. And that's regardless of age, frankly.
The number of people who believe they can knock up a website is clearly a lot larger than the number of people who can actually do it WELL.
[ 14. June 2012, 14:10: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The extent of social stratification by cognitive ability is much greater than most people realize. Those people you haven't seen since they dropped out of school after 8th grade are still out there somewhere.
Yes they are. Living in the same street as me, going to the same pub, attendingthe same football matches, hanging around on street corners, buying things in the shops. We don't all live in class-bound bubbles.
The vast majority of them can handle web browsers and mobile phones. The few that genuinely can't probably couldn't handle the paperwork needed to run a bank account anyway.
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
I certainly don't intent "cognitive ability" as a red herring. For an ATM, you have to be able to remember a PIN, which may change over the years for various reasons and which you're not supposed to write down. You have to be able to read well enough to navigate the menus, which vary from one machine to the next and vary over time, and which lack any cues or hints for the less literate.
Yeah, but if they're illiterate to that degree, they'll have difficulty functioning in society generally without support.
If they can't memorise a 4-digit PIN, they won't remember an 11-digit telephone number. If they can't read the instructions on an ATM screen, they'll struggle to read (say) a bus timetable or the labels in the supermarket.
Using Twilight's examples, if they can't add up $50 + $50 + $50, they'll find household budgeting impossible. If they can't distinguish between their bank card and their social security card, they'll struggle with keys.
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Yeah, but if they're illiterate to that degree, they'll have difficulty functioning in society generally without support.
If they can't memorise a 4-digit PIN, they won't remember an 11-digit telephone number.
The people I have known over the years who I would characterize as being part of this group have generally not tried to memorize phone numbers. Instead, they have a list of phone numbers they use next to their phone.
There's an aside here that, in most of the U.S., phone numbers were dialed as 4 or 5 digits up until the 1970s, when they changed to 7 digits. It's now 10 digits in most cases. With each step we've lost a few people who can't deal with it any more.
quote:
If they can't read the instructions on an ATM screen, they'll struggle to read (say) a bus timetable or the labels in the supermarket.
Well, by way of example, I can think of one individual who spent most of his adult life in the same house, working at a nearby cereal manufacturing plant as a laborer. In practice his job mainly involved pushing large carts of ingredients and supplies from one part of the building to another. He walked to work in good weather and drove his car in poor weather. He knew the streets in the town of around 40,000 where he lived, and didn't venture outside the town except in the company of others who could provide navigational assistance.
You'll note that labels in supermarkets usually feature pictures of the food item being sold. It's possible to deal with supermarkets without being literate.
quote:
Using Twilight's examples, if they can't add up $50 + $50 + $50, they'll find household budgeting impossible. If they can't distinguish between their bank card and their social security card, they'll struggle with keys.
Continuing with this same individual, he did most of his household budgeting with envelops into which he would put money. He was frugal and really didn't like to spend money on much of anything, and so money was never, in practice, a problem for him. Since he tended to lose his ID and checkbook he would always go to the same teller at the bank, who recognized him, and would allow him to deposit and withdraw money without any ID or paperwork.
He did struggle somewhat with keys but only routinely carried his house key, his mother's house key, and his car keys, which kept it easier.
[ 14. June 2012, 19:28: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Read the opening post. It is not drive-through banking that has been discontinued, it's drive through banking with human tellers. There is still an ATM at the drive through. This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
What I can't figure out is how /why my bank has, in the last few years, started extending their hours further (some branches were already open on Saturdays, or open 8 am - 8 pm), opened more branches, and is even opening on Sundays in some locations. The downsizing that started in the 80s seems to be reversing. However, it seems to be the only one of the Big 5 doing this. Of course, Canadian banking - and Canadian customer service generally - is a totally different world that the US or many other places.
I suspect what may happen is an analogy with what is already happening with grocery stores: different brands and store styles to serve different types of customers. Self-checkours in stores where they will get used, cashiers in stores where they don't. Service options will be targeted just as brands, selection, and price are already. If there's customers out there, someone will figure out how to serve them efficiently and profitably. OliviaG
Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
In rural areas that lack good broadband service there is no public WiFi available because there is no cost effective backhaul for it.
Even in New York City truly free Wifi is quite hard to come by.
A few years ago, you could hop on one of the many unlocked stray Wifi signals that seemed to be ubiquitous here, but then people, and businesses, got concerned with data security and started encrypting their connections. Now it's hard to find anything that's open. Even the McDonald's and coffee places mentioned above tend to have encrypted Wifi which requires sales people to give you a password, and they generally won't give them out to people who aren't customers. Truly free Wifi outside of universities and libraries is very hard to come by, even here.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Since he tended to lose his ID and checkbook he would always go to the same teller at the bank, who recognized him, and would allow him to deposit and withdraw money without any ID or paperwork.
In which case, the odds of him having ever used the drive-through teller you started with as an example are exceedingly remote.
I say this because you seem to largely be demonstrating the barriers of technology, not the existence of new barriers as a result of technological change.
[ 15. June 2012, 03:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Read the opening post. It is not drive-through banking that has been discontinued, it's drive through banking with human tellers. There is still an ATM at the drive through. This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
What I can't figure out is how /why my bank has, in the last few years, started extending their hours further (some branches were already open on Saturdays, or open 8 am - 8 pm), opened more branches, and is even opening on Sundays in some locations. The downsizing that started in the 80s seems to be reversing. However, it seems to be the only one of the Big 5 doing this. Of course, Canadian banking - and Canadian customer service generally - is a totally different world that the US or many other places.
I suspect what may happen is an analogy with what is already happening with grocery stores: different brands and store styles to serve different types of customers. Self-checkours in stores where they will get used, cashiers in stores where they don't. Service options will be targeted just as brands, selection, and price are already. If there's customers out there, someone will figure out how to serve them efficiently and profitably. OliviaG
Easy. Toronto-Dominion took over Canada Trust, the last of the independent trust companies. Canada Trust's business model was based on better service than the Big 5 banks and therefore they always had extended hours. Open until 8pm was their norm.
When TD bought Canada Trust, Canada Trust customer service model was the one used on the merged organization and TD's entire retail side was in effect turned into Canada Trust. Because Canada Trust had better service and made better money doing in.
The rest is the result of the ordinary forces of market competition. The Bank of Montreal has extended its hours too.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Truly free Wifi outside of universities and libraries is very hard to come by, even here.
I'd argue that wifi at universities isn't free, as it costs a fortune to go to school these days. Non-students aren't likely to go to Cal State Long Beach to use the wifi -- parking is an expensive nightmare, and those who live close by are either students or they're relatively well to do. Plus college campuses tend to be a real pain to navigate if you're not familiar with them.
That leaves public libraries. The limits on their hours has already been pointed out; what I'll add is that I wouldn't be all that happy about doing my banking or filling out job applications on a public network, given all the personal info those things require.
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
...what I'll add is that I wouldn't be all that happy about doing my banking or filling out job applications on a public network, given all the personal info those things require.
This is an important point that is not sufficiently understood, ISTM.
--Tom Clune
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