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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Myths and facts about Old-calendar Easter
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
Common myths about the Julian Easter computation, with their refutation.
MYTH: Orthodox Easter is always the first Sunday after 15 Nisan in the Rabbinic calendar.
FACT: In the 23 years 1998 to 2020 inclusive, Julian Easter is the first Sunday after Rabbinic 15 Nisan in nine of those years, or less than half the time. Gregorian Easter is the first Sunday after Rabbinic 15 Nisan in all but three of the 23 years. So it is the Gregorian Easter, not the Julian Easter, that can said to fall most of the time on "the first Sunday after Passover."
Here is a table showing Rabbinic 15 Nisan, Gregorian Easter, and Julian Easter for 1998 to 2020. The column labeled N indicates the number of the Sunday after 15 Nisan. So "1" under "N" after Gregorian or Julian Easter indicates that the corresponding Easter that year is on the 1st Sunday after 15 Nisan. A "2" indicates the second Sunday, and so on. A zero would indicate Gregorian Easter coinciding with 15 Nisan, though no cases occur in the years listed. A negative number indicates a Sunday prior to 15 Nisan. The Julian Easter dates are given in the Gregorian calendar.
code:
Year | 15 Nisan | Gregorian Easter | N(G) | Julian Easter | N(J)
1998 | 11 April | 12 April | 1 | 19 April | 2
1999 | 1 April | 4 April | 1 | 11 April | 2
2000 | 20 April | 23 April | 1 | 30 April | 2
2001 | 8 April | 15 April | 1 | 15 April | 1
2002 | 28 March | 31 March | 1 | 5 May | 5
2003 | 17 April | 20 April | 1 | 27 April | 2
2004 | 6 April | 11 April | 1 | 11 April | 1
2005 | 24 April | 27 March | -4 | 1 May | 1
2006 | 13 April | 16 April | 1 | 23 April | 2
2007 | 3 April | 8 April | 1 | 8 April | 1
2008 | 20 April | 23 March | -4 | 27 April | 1
2009 | 9 April | 12 April | 1 | 19 April | 2
2010 | 30 March | 4 April | 1 | 4 April | 1
2011 | 19 April | 24 April | 1 | 24 April | 1
2012 | 7 April | 8 April | 1 | 15 April | 2
2013 | 26 March | 31 March | 1 | 5 May | 6
2014 | 15 April | 20 April | 1 | 20 April | 1
2015 | 4 April | 5 April | 1 | 12 April | 2
2016 | 23 April | 27 March | -4 | 1 May | 2
2017 | 11 April | 16 April | 1 | 16 April | 1
2018 | 31 March | 1 April | 1 | 8 April | 2
2019 | 20 April | 21 April | 1 | 28 April | 2
2020 | 9 April | 12 April | 1 | 19 April | 2
MYTH: The Eastern churches have an explicit mathematical rule requiring Easter always to follow 15 Nisan in the Rabbinic calendar.
FACT: This "Zonaras proviso" is an invention of medieval Byzantine canon lawyers. They were trying to account for some 4th century conciliar canons, in particular Apostolic Canon 7 and Antioch Canon 1. They didn't have the ability simply to say "These canons are obsolete and no longer apply." So they invented this cock-and-bull story about Passover.
In fact the Julian computus, like the Gregorian, is entirely self-consistent and makes no external reference to the Rabbinic or any other calendar. In modern times Julian Easter does, indeed, always follow Rabbinic 15 Nisan, but this is an artifact of the Julian calendar's accumulated errors, not an explicit mathematical formula into which the date of Rabbinic 15 Nisan must be entered.
MYTH: The Eastern churches have an explicit mathematical rule requiring Easter always to follow the entire Scriptural week of Unleavened Bread according to the Rabbinic calendar.
FACT: This is a variant statement of the Zonaras proviso referred to above, and it is just as false that other. If the statement were true, the dates for Julian Easter 2004, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2014, and 2017 would be impossible. In every one of those years, Julian Easter falls on the 6th day of Unleavened Bread according to the Rabbinic calendar. Hence it is possible for Julian Easter to fall within the seven Scriptural days Unleavened Bread.
MYTH: The Eastern churches compute Easter using the astronomical true equinox, true moon, and meridian of Jerusalem.
FACT: A synod of Orthodox bishops in 1923 agreed to do this, but the agreement was never permanently put into effect. No church, East or West, uses the astronomical method to compute Easter. The Gregorian Easter, however, almost always agrees with the date that the astronomical method, referred to the prime meridian, would set.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Mockingbird, what is it you would have us discuss here? And what does it have to do with liturgical practice?
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the worlds grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
The most relevant paschal myth, though not Rabbinic, Julian, Gregorian, Quartodeciman, Nicene, Alexandrian or whatever, is that there is so much as a single verse in the NT, consisting of either precept or precedent, requiring the annual observation of Easter.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The most relevant paschal myth, though not Rabbinic, Julian, Gregorian, Quartodeciman, Nicene, Alexandrian or whatever, is that there is so much as a single verse in the NT, consisting of either precept or precedent, requiring the annual observation of Easter.
Red herring. Easter was observed before the canon of the NT was fixed.
It's church ---> book, not book ---> church.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Red herring. Easter was observed before the canon of the NT was fixed.
Before any council published a fixed list, yet. But not before the vast majority of the NT - including the four gospels - was already almost universally accepted by Christians.
quote:
It's church ---> book, not book ---> church.
But the churches that wrote the NT were not the modern Orthodox or Catholic churches, or even the churches of the ecumenical councils and the Apostolic Fathers, they were the churches of the first century. And the NT is our best - almost our only - evidence as to what those churches were like and what their doctrine and liturgy were.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I haven't heard any of those myths mentioned in the OP. I was only thought that the East calculated Pascha according to the date of the first full moon after 21 March, just like the West, but the date would be 13 days later for them. Therefore sometimes the two Easters coincide, but they can be up to a month out.
(The book/church thing is no doubt an old chestnut. But the NT is a collection of authoritative texts, not a comprehensive guide. If most Christians had almost universally adopted a custom by 300, then either nobody had ever seen any inconsistency with NT religion, or we can accept it as a legitimate development.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Mockingbird, what is it you would have us discuss here? And what does it have to do with liturgical practice?
I consider the calendar to be inherently liturgical subject-matter, so I posted to Ecclesiantics instead of Purgatory.
I want to give any who hold to one of the propositions I have labeled as myths above to have a chance to present evidence that supports their view. I also wanted to know if others have encountered folk who hold to any of the myths I have identified. I have encountered all of the myths at one time or another on the web, though I have never met anyone in person who defends them.
The question of the origin of annual (as opposed to weekly) festivals in Christianity is an interesting one. It is indeed true that no New Testament passage unambiguously supports the proposition that the first generations of Christians had annual festivals. At the same time, it is clear that some gentile Christians were aware of the Jewish calendar. For example: - Paul tells the Corinthians, "I will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost", clearly expecting the Greek Christians to know what "Pentecost" is.
- Luke mentions "the days of Unleavened Bread" (Acts 12.3) and the Day of Atonement (Acts 27.9) expecting his readers to know what is meant.
- (On the other hand, Luke, following Mark, calls 14 Nisan "the Day of Unleavened Bread", which it isn't. Mark was perhaps confused, or perhaps was reckoning the day in Roman fashion from midnight. But Luke should have known better.)
- The entire middle section of John's Gospel is structured around the Jewish annual festivals. Could this have been directed to Jewish Christians, as a way of encouraging them to abandon the annual festivals, or alter their annual rituals? Either way it suggests that some Jewish Christians continued to observe annual festivals as they always had. Suggests, but no more than this.
- From a slightly later time, the Work known as 1 Clement states "there ought to be strict order and method in our performance of such acts as the Master has prescribed for certain times." (Chapter 40). This too suggests, but does not prove, annual festivals.
When the Easter festival and the celebration of martyrs' anniversaries emerge clearly from the mists in the mid-2nd century, they seem to be well-established in at least some places, suggesting that these observances had begun at least a generation earlier. Furthermore, the Easter festival, unlike the martyrs' "birthdays", is found from the first time it is clearly mentioned to be fixed by means of an archaic lunar calendar, suggesting (but again, not proving) that it had entered Christianity fairly early.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Mockingbird, thank you for your response. While I agree with your premise that the calendar is liturgical, your focus here is on the origins or construction of the calendar, and that is just too far removed from liturgical practice to have a home in Eccles. If the Purgatory Hosts are willing to host the discussion as you have framed it, we will transfer it to that board. For the time being at least, the thread is closed.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the worlds grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Following consultation, we're moving to Purgatory...
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'm not at all happy with the use of the word "myth" in the OP to mean "a commonly held but inaccurate belief".
Myths are generally a way of conveying profound insights about life, and they may well include perfectly accurate historical information.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
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Posted
Myth can, surely, be a big idea and / or a big lie. In Eastern Europe, our old friend, the Jewish-Bolshevik-Masonic conspiracy, is still used to explain everything and anything from gay rites, to the pope being an anti-pope really, or the 'bus being late. It is nothing if not a big idea and some French monsignor swears it was all perfectly true and has the minutes to prove it. For all I know, a masonic conspiracy is spying on us all and responding in subtle ways to our posts at this very moment.
But, myths aside, the odd thing, for me, is the notion that the eastern churches equate with the Julian Calendar. Bede and the Celts all had bother over Easter but the Julian Calendar, as such, was alive and kicking in England into 1750-something. OS and NS are a separate issue from the calculation of Easter.
It seems doubtful there is any "common" myth whatsoever about any of this in the first place. It is not going to make it into "the Sun", so the nearest to any common myth about a "Julian calendar" might be to wonder if it had anything to do with Kenneth Williams. So far as more esoteric stuff goes, it certainly is a myth to think the Julian calendar is an uniquely eastern concern.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I haven't heard any of those myths mentioned in the OP.
I have, but on;ly in books about ancient heresies and mediaeval cults and schisms. I don;t think any of it is of the slightest relevance to the Church today, though individuals might get some fun out of finding out about it, in a sort of retrogothick way. In the ladder of scholarship I think arguing about the date of Easter is pretty near the bottom, maybe one step above the SCA, one step below wargames with model soldiers. Mostly harmless, and it doesn't really matter that much. File it with alchemy, illuminated bestiaries (considered as natural history rther than art), the Quest for the Holy Grail, the Knights Templar and the hidden king of Burgundy.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
ken scoffs:
In the ladder of scholarship I think arguing about the date of Easter is pretty near the bottom, maybe one step above the SCA [and church reunion]. Mostly harmless, and it doesn't really matter that much [except for church reunion]. File it with alchemy, illuminated bestiaries [and other things, like church reunion, which don't really matter.]
There. FTFY.
Any Old Calendarists care to comment?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If most Christians had almost universally adopted a custom by 300, then either nobody had ever seen any inconsistency with NT religion, or we can accept it as a legitimate development.)
Such as the veneration of relics?
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If most Christians had almost universally adopted a custom by 300, then either nobody had ever seen any inconsistency with NT religion, or we can accept it as a legitimate development.)
Such as the veneration of relics?
Sure, why not?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
...and other things, like church reunion, which don't really matter.
If "Church reunion" ever happens on this earth we'll easily fix our problems with the date of Easter. If it doesn't, it won't be the date of Easter that stops it.
And the Old Calendrist schism wasn't fundamentally about dates, any more than the Russian Old Believer schism was about how many fingers you hold up when blessing someone, or the Reformation was about Calvin's dislike of incense and vestments.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I haven't heard any of those myths mentioned in the OP. I was only thought that the East calculated Pascha according to the date of the first full moon after 21 March, just like the West, but the date would be 13 days later for them. Therefore sometimes the two Easters coincide, but they can be up to a month out.
Under current rules, Gregorian and Julian Easter can differ by 0, 1, 4, or 5 weeks. If the 13-day difference in the equinox were the sole source of difference, the 1-week difference (as in 2012) would be impossible.
In fact, besides the 13-day difference in the equinox there is a 4-day (sometimes a 5-day) difference in the age of the moon. It was this lunar discrepancy that caused 2012's 1-week difference. The astronomical moon was full on Friday, April 6th, 2012. The Gregorian moon was full on Saturday, April 7th, so Gregorian Easter was April 8th. The Julian moon, however, was not full until Wednesday, April 11th, so Julian Easter was April 15th.
All of the canards listed above can be found on the web. For the first one, the "first Sunday after Passover" canard, see the comment by "CT" at http://liturgy.co.nz/when-easter/2715 . "CT" writes: quote:
Being Greek Orthodox, I think our way of reckoning Easter is vastly simpler: The first Sunday following Jewish Passover. Never understood why the Western Church insists on an arcane formula.
For the second canard (Zonaras proviso, weak form) see http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/qt/whyeasterchange.htm where the author states quote:
additionally, in keeping with the rule established by the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea, the Eastern Orthodox Church adhered to the tradition that Easter must always fall after the Jewish Passover.
The word "additionally" implies an extra mathematical rule.
For the third canard (Zonaras proviso, strong form) see http://frmilovan.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/calculating-easter-for-dummies/ where the author's picture implies that "Passover" lasts 9 days (14 Nisan, the Passover strictly so called, + 15-21 Nisan, the scriptural days of Unleavened Bread, + 22 Nisan the extra day traditionally added in the diaspora) and that Easter must be after these nine days, and that this rule is in addition to the equinox-and-moon-and-Sunday rule.
For the fourth canard, see http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-western-orthodox-easter-fall-on.html where you can find the self-contradictory statement quote:
Some Eastern Orthodox churches not only maintain the date of Easter based on the Julian calendar, they also use the actual, astronomical full moon and the actual vernal equinox as observed along the meridian of Jerusalem.
[ 09. May 2012, 01:47: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
ken said:
But the churches that wrote the NT were not the modern Orthodox or Catholic churches, or even the churches of the ecumenical councils and the Apostolic Fathers, they were the churches of the first century. And the NT is our best - almost our only - evidence as to what those churches were like and what their doctrine and liturgy were.
I assume by "almost only" you are allowing for the Didache and the writings of the Apostolic Fathers? Or would you say that by the time John died the church had lost the thread and left the apostolic path?
ETA: (in response to Kaplan Corday):
Is there any group anywhere that has ever taught that the NT prescribes the celebration of Easter? Or is this just a giant red herring?
[ 09. May 2012, 06:48: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is there any group anywhere that has ever taught that the NT prescribes the celebration of Easter?
It is a red herring to talk about the NT prescribing the annual celebration of Easter.
Rather, the NT simply never mentions it, which means that Easter, like so many other things, falls under the category of adiaphora.
The questions of whether, when and how it is celebrated are therefore immaterial.
For what it's worth, I personally enjoy celebrating it.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If most Christians had almost universally adopted a custom by 300, then either nobody had ever seen any inconsistency with NT religion, or we can accept it as a legitimate development.)
Such as the veneration of relics?
Sure, why not?
Because it is sub-Christian, faux-soteriological, superstitious bullshit, permeated by counterfeits, frauds, swindles, thefts and murders?
Or did you mean apart from that?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Leaving aside the Great Schism, the Synod of Whitby and the changes of 1752, the great advantage of the current western way of calculating Easter is that it gets it closer to a full moon. So it is always going to be closer in flavour to the events of Jesus's death and resurrection. For example, on the night of Maundy Thursday a large moon will rise within an hour or so of sunset.
It doesn't quite fit, because, as I understand it, Passover will be on any date of the week 14 days after the New Moon, whereas Good Friday has to be on a Friday and Easter has to be a Sunday. But linking this to an 'ecclesiastical' full moon rather than the real astronomical one, means this will fit in fewer years.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Sorry, just what is it that prompted the OP?
I usually just wait until someone tells me the results of the calculation. Whether the rules for doing so are the same or different to the rules in other centuries (or indeed, in other churches in this century) seems to be an incredibly esoteric point unless you are trying to discern the precise date for a historical purpose.
(The one that leapt to my mind was that the exact date of first performance for many of J.S. Bach's cantatas can be determined partly because of the liturgical calendar.)
But in terms of knowing the date for Easter in 2013 or 2017, I really don't think it matters so long as there IS one. The only real concern with the rules would be if someone announced that there wouldn't be an Easter celebration one year on the grounds that no Sunday met the criteria.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
ADDENDUM: From what I can gather, the OPer has found errors on the internet. And has never found anyone in real life who shares the same errors.
I find errors on the internet all the time, but it's a little difficult to see how that translates to debating them on the Ship if there's no evidence that anyone on the Ship shares the erroneous views or puts them into practice.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It is a red herring to talk about the NT prescribing the annual celebration of Easter.
From which it follows as does the day from the night that it is a red herring to talk about the NT NOT prescribing the annual celebration of Easter.
quote:
Rather, the NT simply never mentions it, which means that Easter, like so many other things, falls under the category of adiaphora.
Only if you are wed to a "Bible-only" methodology and a very low view of the Church.
quote:
The questions of whether, when and how it is celebrated are therefore immaterial.
So on a bible-only, low-church view, anything not in the Bible is immaterial? Really? Are you sure the word you want is immaterial? Or do you mean immaterial vis-a-vis our salvation? If the latter, then you could make a case, at least from your premises. Which as you must know, aren't the only possible set of premises.
[ 09. May 2012, 13:54: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If most Christians had almost universally adopted a custom by 300, then either nobody had ever seen any inconsistency with NT religion, or we can accept it as a legitimate development.)
Such as the veneration of relics?
Sure, why not?
Because it is sub-Christian, faux-soteriological, superstitious bullshit, permeated by counterfeits, frauds, swindles, thefts and murders?
Or did you mean apart from that?
Like all those Methodists trekking up to Epworth? Or visiting Wesley's or his mother's grave in City Road? OK, they don't kiss things, but the human urge to get in contact with something or someone near to God is the same.
And even if I don't venerate relics, or persuade anyone else to do so, those who were nearer in time and continuity to the earliest church, saw nothing inconsistent. What was the date of Igantius of Antioch's martyrdom?f
Sorry, off topic. Though I'm at a lost to know what the topic really is.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If most Christians had almost universally adopted a custom by 300, then either nobody had ever seen any inconsistency with NT religion, or we can accept it as a legitimate development.)
Such as the veneration of relics?
Sure, why not?
Because it is sub-Christian, faux-soteriological, superstitious bullshit, permeated by counterfeits, frauds, swindles, thefts and murders?
Or did you mean apart from that?
Like all those Methodists trekking up to Epworth? Or visiting Wesley's or his mother's grave in City Road? OK, they don't kiss things, but the human urge to get in contact with something or someone near to God is the same.
And even if I don't venerate relics, or persuade anyone else to do so, those who were nearer in time and continuity to the earliest church, saw nothing inconsistent. What was the date of Igantius of Antioch's martyrdom?f
Sorry, off topic. Though I'm at a lost to know what the topic really is.
I found visiting C.S. Lewis's grave at Oxford a moving experience, but I would not have been moved at the prospect of paying money to view his nose or his thyroid gland or one of his testicles in a jewel-encrusted gold reliquary in the shape of the contained organ, as a way of getting some time off Purgatory (and yes, I realise he wasn't a martyr, but you get the point).
As for Ignatius, sure, he was martyred, and his relics harvested, very close to the NT era, but there were plenty of things which went on during the NT era which we would hardly want to emulate, as can be read in books such as Galatians and Corinthians.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
a very low view of the Church.
In these contexts it is confusing to talk about a "low" view of the church if you don't specify whether you are using the word in its popular or its theological sense.
As regards the popular sense, my belief that the church consists of the sum total of the redeemed, both the church militant on earth and the church triumphant in Heaven, and is the eventual Bride of Christ, means that my view of the church could not be higher.
As regards the technical ecclesiological meaning, yes my view is very low, because I don't believe that the episcopacy and clergy have any spiritual status denied to the "laity", or that the sacraments are a vehicle of grace, or that "extra ecclesiam nulla salus".
If you want to celebrate the Orthodox Easter, go nuts and enjoy yourself, just as others are equally free to celebrate it at a different time, or in a different way, or not at all.
[ 10. May 2012, 02:58: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
If you want to celebrate the Orthodox Easter, go nuts and enjoy yourself, just as others are equally free to celebrate it at a different time, or in a different way, or not at all.
Thank you. I'm so glad I finally have obtained your permission.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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The Scrumpmeister
Ships Taverner
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I found visiting C.S. Lewis's grave at Oxford a moving experience, but I would not have been moved at the prospect of paying money to view his nose or his thyroid gland or one of his testicles in a jewel-encrusted gold reliquary in the shape of the contained organ, as a way of getting some time off Purgatory (and yes, I realise he wasn't a martyr, but you get the point).
Money? Purgatory? The suggestion of martyrs only? Reliquaries in the shape of genitals?
You sound like that earth historian from that episode of Dr Who with the space cruise ship Titanic. You know? The one who had no actual experience of earth but had just got a crackpot degree from somewhere, and told the cruise tourists that Good King Wenceslas ruled over Old London Town, that human beings worship a ferocious god called Santa and his wife Mary, and that the UK goes to war every Christmas with a country called Turkey, whose inhabitants we then eat with Brussels sprouts and gravy.
The reality is that the veneration of relics has nothing to do with a non-existent purgatory or the paying of money, and such things never occur to me when I venerate the relics of saints. What unscrupulous people may choose to do is a different matter but I have never encountered this personally. Besides, unscrupulous people will use anything for their ends - not just holy things. It is also not the relics of martyrs alone that are venerated, and while jewel-encrusted, oddly-shaped reliquaries of gold are not unknown and may have been more common in certain times and places in history, far more usual seems to be a wooden, glass-topped casket with the relics laid out (if they are complete), or, in the case of smaller fragments, a simple box of carved wood or perhaps metal, with the relics set into wax.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Besides which, relics do have Scriptural precedents.
2 Kings 13:21
Acts 19:11-12
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I found visiting C.S. Lewis's grave at Oxford a moving experience, but I would not have been moved at the prospect of paying money to view his nose or his thyroid gland or one of his testicles in a jewel-encrusted gold reliquary in the shape of the contained organ, as a way of getting some time off Purgatory (and yes, I realise he wasn't a martyr, but you get the point).
Money? Purgatory? The suggestion of martyrs only? Reliquaries in the shape of genitals?
You sound like that earth historian from that episode of Dr Who with the space cruise ship Titanic. You know? The one who had no actual experience of earth but had just got a crackpot degree from somewhere, and told the cruise tourists that Good King Wenceslas ruled over Old London Town, that human beings worship a ferocious god called Santa and his wife Mary, and that the UK goes to war every Christmas with a country called Turkey, whose inhabitants we then eat with Brussels sprouts and gravy.
The reality is that the veneration of relics has nothing to do with a non-existent purgatory or the paying of money, and such things never occur to me when I venerate the relics of saints. What unscrupulous people may choose to do is a different matter but I have never encountered this personally. Besides, unscrupulous people will use anything for their ends - not just holy things. It is also not the relics of martyrs alone that are venerated, and while jewel-encrusted, oddly-shaped reliquaries of gold are not unknown and may have been more common in certain times and places in history, far more usual seems to be a wooden, glass-topped casket with the relics laid out (if they are complete), or, in the case of smaller fragments, a simple box of carved wood or perhaps metal, with the relics set into wax.
First, there have been reliquaries in the shape of a number of body parts, including hands, feet and heads.
Secondly, a whole group of relics, ie the various Holy Prepuces, have consisted of genital parts.
They might not have made foreskin-shaped containers for them - that would have been grotesque - but Catherine of Siena dreamed of wearing one of them as a wedding ring, which is far more normal.
Thirdly, while the exploitation of C.S. Lewis's remains was fairly unlikely, dying as he did four hundred years to the year after Trent, there was indeed a flourishing mediaeval ecclesiastical industry in relics, paying to see them, and being promised remission of time in purgatory for having viewed them.
There is an accessible, entertaining yet historically factual description of this racket in Roland Bainton's classic biography of Luther, Here I Stand.
[ 10. May 2012, 11:16: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A fair call on medieval Western practices, Kaplan, not quite so sure how it applies to the Eastern Churches which don't believe in Purgatory and so on.
That's not to say that the Orthodox don't have some pretty odd practices - from a Protestant POV - when it comes to relics and so on. I've got a scrap of cloth somewhere in a waxed paper cover with an icon of Christ on the front that a convert to Orthodoxy gave me following a trip to Greece. He told me it was a piece of cloth from the cloak of an 11th century Saint. You didn't need to be an archaeologist or subject it to carbon dating to tell at a glance that it was of modern manufacture.
I've mentioned this to some Orthodox priests and they've chuckled to themselves ... they know that the man was gulled just as much as I do.
But then, I've also had very sane and sensible Orthodox priests tell me that they've seen myrrh-streaming icons in Russia or Greece and lots of other wierd things besides ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Of course, we all know that the early Church was Protestant and just like the Plymouth Brethren and so knew better ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course, we all know that the early Church was Protestant and just like the Plymouth Brethren and so knew better ...
Wicked heresy. The Church of England as by law established, the Book of Homilies and its worship in accordance with the Book of Common Prayer are that truest and most faithful Comformitie with the Primitiff Church and an odour moste pleasing to Allmighty Godde.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
As regards the popular sense, my belief that the church consists of the sum total of the redeemed, both the church militant on earth and the church triumphant in Heaven, and is the eventual Bride of Christ, means that my view of the church could not be higher.
Precisely.
Which is why when any individual church or denomination claims to be the only true Church on Earth, they immediately invalidate themselves. Its an oxymoron. The claim disproves itself. The sentence "We are the Holy Church and anyone not a member of our organisation is not a member of the Church eternal" is self-contradictory.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Unless you are RC or Orthodox ...
Then it makes sense.
But both bodies would accept the possibility of the rest of us being included in the final tally, as it were.
That's not the issue, if I understand them correctly. The issue for them is that the rest of us aren't necessarily part of the ChurchTM as it is now, not as it will be.
'We can say where the Church is, but not where it isn't,' and so on.
As a Proddy, then my ecclesiology is similar to Kaplan's, of course. But there are difficulties with it - as indeed there are difficulties with the RC and Orthodox approaches. Both of them would accept that 'not all Israel are Israel' and that there are people beyond the bounds of their own communion - and possibly even the Christian faith itself - who will be in that number when the Saints go marching in.
It'll all come out in the wash.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
While we're on this tangent, and sorry to double-post, but it's struck me on visits to synagogues that we can find echoes of all three main divisions of Christianity - Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox - within what I've seen of Judaism.
The rabbinical function is very reminiscent of non-conformist clergy, it seems to be, with the Rabbi performing a similar role to that of a Baptist or other Free Church pastor ie. he's part of the congregation only has a particular function.
The worship itself is very liturgical with set prayers and so on (even prayers for the dead at special midweek meetings) and the way people seem to come and go and wander in and out at will is reminiscent of Eastern Orthodoxy. The way the scrolls and the Torah are venerated is very reminiscent of the way RCs and Orthodox venerate icons and the cross etc.
There's a sense of 'family' ritual about the whole thing.
I'm not saying that any one strand of Christendom is closer to the Jewish model (from which we all derive) than any other, just noting some interesting echoes and similarities. Of course, neither contemporary Judaism and contemporary Christianity - of whatever stripe - is an exact match for what went on in the first century, but the seeds of what we all get up are found there.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If "Church reunion" ever happens on this earth we'll easily fix our problems with the date of Easter.
I'm not sure why church reunion gets scare quotes, but some of us earnestly pray for it. Scoff all you like about a common date for Pascha.
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Besides which, relics do have Scriptural precedents.
2 Kings 13:21
Acts 19:11-12
Not to mention the ark of the covenant. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course, we all know that the early Church was Protestant and just like the Plymouth Brethren and so knew better ...
Not quite, because they didn't yet have The Believers (that's right, no apostrophe)Hymn Book.
Its later advent is an example of progressive revelation, or what Newman called the Development of Doctrine.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Besides which, relics do have Scriptural precedents.
2 Kings 13:21
Acts 19:11-12
Anyone who tried to erect a theology of relics on the foundation of those two passages would earn full marks for ingenuity, but a fail in Hermeneutics and Exegesis 101.
[ 11. May 2012, 09:24: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I'm not sure why church reunion gets scare quotes
Because the phrase "church reunion" seemed to be referring to some preconcieved model of reunion between just two connexions of churches, neither of which would recognise the vast majority of churches as churches.
quote:
...but some of us earnestly pray for it.
Of course. But also recognising that the unity of the Church is in Christ, not in our earthly organisations. And that no earthly organisation is co-terminous with teh Church on Earth. And that pretending to be is one of the man barriers - probably the main barrier - to visible unity.
quote:
Scoff all you like about a common date for Pascha.
Scoff? I was right and you know it. Reunited churches would agree on a date. Divided churches wouldn't reunite even if they did agree on a date. The original reason for the schisms was nothing to do with dates. The OP is fun in a sort of geeky way but its not about anything very important to church unity.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I'm not sure why church reunion gets scare quotes
Because the phrase "church reunion" seemed to be referring to some preconcieved model of reunion between just two connexions of churches, neither of which would recognise the vast majority of churches as churches.
Well, you have to start somewhere.
The vast majority of churches have infinitely little chance of ever reuniting with other churches within even their own flavor of Protestantism. I can't imagine reunion between all the pentecostal churches, for example.
(Oh, and the obvious response to your shot at the Catholic and Orthodox is that the vast majority of Protestants don't consider them to be Churches either. Hell many Protestants don't consider other protestants to be saved, or part of the church, or whatever.)
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Besides which, relics do have Scriptural precedents.
2 Kings 13:21
Acts 19:11-12
Anyone who tried to erect a theology of relics on the foundation of those two passages would earn full marks for ingenuity, but a fail in Hermeneutics and Exegesis 101.
There's also the ark of the covenant, as I mentioned. Also, the theology of relics was developed in a church that was not constrained with the doctrine of sola scriptura. Relics were given respect and a place in the church after it was observed than they facilitated the working of God.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
I think Easter should be observed at Passover.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think Easter should be observed at Passover.
So did the early Quartodecimans, but the practice seems to have been dropped because of anti-Semitism ie we're not going to have those Jews relling us when to celebrate Easter.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Well, if Newman's progressive revelation is going to give you the Believers Hymnbook (funny, because I'm sure they used Redemption Hymnal in the Brethren assembly I knew best, but perhaps my memory is playing tricks) then surely it can graciously grant Irish Lord, Michael Astley and others of a more 'Catholick' and Orthodox persuasion to develop a theology of relics based on the verses that have already been cited.
Thinking about it, none of that sounds any more bizarre than the dispensationalist Schofield style hermeneutics I heard in the Brethren assemblies back in the day.
And a theology of relics needn't imply Purgatory, indulgences and sharp-practice - although I will grant that they can open people up to that sort of thing and much more besides.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think Easter should be observed at Passover.
So did the early Quartodecimans, but the practice seems to have been dropped because of anti-Semitism ie we're not going to have those Jews relling us when to celebrate Easter.
Indeed.
The arguments over Easter would all disappear if Good Friday was always the same week as Passover - as of course, it should be.
"For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. - even though we're deliberately and artificially two weeks early/late..."
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
While we're on this tangent, and sorry to double-post, but it's struck me on visits to synagogues that we can find echoes of all three main divisions of Christianity - Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox - within what I've seen of Judaism.
The rabbinical function is very reminiscent of non-conformist clergy, it seems to be, with the Rabbi performing a similar role to that of a Baptist or other Free Church pastor ie. he's part of the congregation only has a particular function.
The worship itself is very liturgical with set prayers and so on (even prayers for the dead at special midweek meetings) and the way people seem to come and go and wander in and out at will is reminiscent of Eastern Orthodoxy. The way the scrolls and the Torah are venerated is very reminiscent of the way RCs and Orthodox venerate icons and the cross etc.
There's a sense of 'family' ritual about the whole thing.
I'm not saying that any one strand of Christendom is closer to the Jewish model (from which we all derive) than any other, just noting some interesting echoes and similarities. Of course, neither contemporary Judaism and contemporary Christianity - of whatever stripe - is an exact match for what went on in the first century, but the seeds of what we all get up are found there.
Curiously, many years ago a Jewish family I knew well said that from outside Orthodoxy looked more like their own way of doing things than the version of the CofE they had encountered at school in the 1930s or 1950s, depending on generation.
It does though strike me that it is at least possible that synagogues may themselves have been influenced by what surrounded them in C17-19 western Russia.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Speaking of relics, I keep on my desk as a memento mori a small plastic skull.
Not sure whether it came from a small plastic saint.
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think Easter should be observed at Passover.
So did the early Quartodecimans, but the practice seems to have been dropped because of anti-Semitism ie we're not going to have those Jews relling us when to celebrate Easter.
My own hunch is that the original practice (if there was a single "original" practice for Easter, and not a variety of practices from the start) was to have Easter on the Sunday of Unleavened Bread. Quartodecimanism looks like a somewhat contrived, "made up" practice by contrast.
Some scholars think that the Quartodeciman practice was to fast on 14 Nisan and break the fast in the small hours of the 15th. I don't know what they base this on. In Eusebius's description, the Quartodecimans clearly describe their practice as ending the Lenten fast on "the day the people [i.e. Jews] put away the leaven," and clearly state that the 14th (not the 15th) of the lunar month is the beginning of the festival. (Church History 5.24.) The leaven is put away on the 14th. The Mishnah (Pesachim 1.1) describes the search for leaven as beginning at sunset on the 13/14 of Nisan. This suggests that the Quartodecimans began their celebration on the night of the 13/14 Nisan, when their Jewish neighbors (if they followed rules like those described in the Mishnah) were beginning their search for the leaven; and that the Quartodecimans continued their merrymaking into the hours of daylight, when some Jews would fast in the afternoon until sunset. (For the custom of fasting on the afternoon of the 14th, see Mishnah Pesachim 10.1). Perhaps the Quartodeciman practice was motivated by 1 Corinthians 5.7-8, in which "celebrating the festival" is connected with "cleansing out the old leaven."
Besides this, Quartodecimanism is only attested in western Asia Minor, and in Asian "stranger churches" in Rome. It is not attested in Syrian, Palestinian, or Mesopotamian Christianity, in the places where (as I read the history) Jewish influence was strongest. But maybe someone on-list knows of sources I know not of, that might bear a different interpretation.
As it happens, the Gregorian Easter is very often on the Sunday of Unleavened Bread anyhow. This early practice was abandoned in the 3rd-4th centuries because the Jewish calendars of that time often placed the Week of Unleavened Bread before the spring equinox. The Christians, however, had a memory of an earlier practice, in which the Easter festival always came after the equinox. So some of the churches began experimenting with independent computations.
In the following centuries, Rabbinic Judaism developed the calendar it now uses. This present-day Rabbinic calendar has always set the Week of Unleavened Bread, or most of it, after the equinox. If it had been adopted by most Jewish communities before around A.D. 210, the Christian move to independent computations might never have happened. But this is not how things went. Instead, the Rabbinic calendar seems to have been developed over a long period from the later 4th to the early 9th century. (A late Jewish tradition attributes the present-day Rabbinic calendar to one "Patriarch Hillel II" in the year corresponding to A.D. 359. But this tradition is wrong.)
However, the Rabbinic calendar, like the Julian, has a solar drift, though the Rabbinic calendar's is much slower than the Julian's. This is why, in years 3, 11, and 14 of our 19-year cycle, Rabbinic Matzoth is in the lunar month after Gregorian Easter-month. The Rabbinic calendar's lunar month is very accurate, but its implied solar year has drifted; it now has an implied equinox of around 24-25 March. If we were to adopt the Rabbinic calendar for Easter now, our Easter too would slowly drift summerward.
For now, we are in a sweet spot in which we often celebrate on the Sunday of Unleavened Bread, just as some early Christians did, despite the differences between our lunar calendar and the Rabbinic. In the table above, the only years in which Gregorian Easter does not fall within the 7 scriptural days of Unleavened Bread are 2001, 2005, 2008, and 2016. We should enjoy this state of affairs while it lasts, but don't think we should go on the Rabbinic calendar until our Jewish brethren first adopt some scheme for "rectifying" their calendar and eliminating the solar drift.
Slightly off topic, but possibly of interest: This year, 2012, the Samaritan Passover sacrifice was offered on Mt. Gerizim on the afternoon of Friday, May 4th.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
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