Ship of Fools: ?Church school place for non baptised children of believer

Thread: ?Church school place for non baptised children of believer Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Mrs Smith - nee Lady G (# 3746) on :

We've not had the two Smithlets baptised so that they can choose their own way as adults (and to annoy the mother in law but that's a bonus to our conviction, not a decider).
We are a church going family. Are we automatically doomed to not get them into the church school because theyve not been dunked?

We're a mixed denomination couple - high days & holidays are high Anglican, normal weeks are Methodist. Husband is the anglican and the less frequent attender. And if we did plump for Anglican it wouldn't be at the church attached to the school because ironically it's not that great for kids. the church school is about the same as our other catchment school - except our borough council is anti any religion in schools and I really want the kids faith, its history, values & ethics, to be part of their learning framework.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

Obviously that puts you in the same boat as some major Christian traditions (Baptists, Salvationists, Quakers), so presumably the school's policy towards those traditions would also apply to you?

Posted by aig (# 429) on :

It depends on the school's published admissions criteria. I think most C of E schools have provision for non-baptized Anglican children, but they are likely to also want a high level of church attendance(and that might have to be C of E rather than anywhere else).
It should be clear and transparent in the admissions policy.

Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :

In England, Roman Catholic schools tend to have criteria which involve baptism. Other Church Schools use tend to use other markers of affiliation. Two things matter - first, if the school is not fully subscribed, your child will get a place. Second, if the school is oversubscribed, the published admissions criteria will apply in strict order of priority - these may include "looked after children" (i.e. those in care, who have statutory priority) measures of affiliation, sibling criteria (keeping brothers and sisters together in the same school), distance from school, medical or social need etc - and for secondaries aptitude in the school specialisms (e.g. music, sport). Your local authority schools admissions website should show the criteria for all local schools, and should also give an indication of how far down the list of criteria the admissions for each school reached last year.

The UK Governors website has regular discussions on admissions questions of this kind (http://forums.ukgovernors.org.uk) and I am sure parents sites do the same. UKGovs has some national experts on board.

Posted by Cenobite (# 14853) on :

I can only speak for CofE schools, but it is important to check whether the school is Voluntary Controlled or Voluntary Aided.

If the former, then it will follow the Local Authority's Admission process - and isn't allowed to do admissions on the basis of church attendance or anything related.

If the latter, then there will be Admissions Criteria, but from my experience, it is based more on church attendance and how active you are in the life of the church. Whether or not the children are baptised shouldn't come into it - but it would be advisable to explain to the incumbent (who will write the recommendation) that you are waiting for them to make their own decision - if she/he is aware of the situation, it will avoid any assumptions being made on the lines of "not baptised = less active."

This document gives quite a bit of background to CofE admissions, and includes some recommendations from the National Society. Probably the most relevant one for you is point B7 on p8, which says that

quote:
The National Society recommends that the only criterion to be taken into account is
attendance at worship.

However, it doesn't necessarily mean that the recommendation will be taken up! Check with your local school! [Smile]

Hope this is helpful!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

You might find that attendance at a non-Anglican church doesn't rate as highly as worshipping in the CofE. There are also issues such as some schools give points for kids who are in the choir or servers - and that automatically disfavours families whose churches don't have such things.

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :

We didn't have our children baptised either. (Happily they decided to be baptised themselves [Smile]

)

That didn't stop them getting into the CofE school. We attend a neighbouring parish. I have heard of attendance of the parents being required for children to be allowed into the church school, but never the baptismal state of the children.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

When we belonged to a Baptist church, we had our children dedicated and the CofE school was fine for that and accepted them (local Primary School).

But now it's much more about getting people to belong to the local CofE churches.

And now many people attend our local CofE church to get their children into several local CofE schools, primary and secondary.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

Whether it matters or not will depend on how popular the school is and how big the intake is. The three form entry CofE school near where we used to live had a good mixture of Anglicans, attendees of other churches, siblings and children living within the catchment area. You'd be fine there.

The single form entry CofE school further down the road was completely different. Strictly week in, week out Anglicans only. The only other Christians who got in were from clergy families.

Hope it all works out!

Tubbs

[ 01. July 2012, 16:32: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I feel that if you want to attend a church school you should expect to accept their requirements. Otherwise go to a government school.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I feel that if you want to attend a church school you should expect to accept their requirements. Otherwise go to a government school.

A lot of Church schools in the UK are government schools. The problems arise when they are popular 'outstanding' schools. Then you get many 'conversions' to keen Christianity, which last until the child goes to high school!

[ 01. July 2012, 09:10: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

It is quite different in Australia as there is a distinct separation between church/private schools and government schools. Parents pay for children to attend church/private schools but there are no fees for government schools apart from certain levies etc which are no where near the cost of school fees.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Very different. Many church schools in England do a good job educating the children of the parish (= local community, irrespective of religious allegiance). However, increasingly they are seen by middle-class and wealthy parents as a way of getting a superior education ('almost as good as a private prep school') on the cheap.

Hence schools have to play this game of vetting for church allegiance and inevitably this leads to hypocrisy and unfairness as poor kids who were baptised (or maybe, as in the OP, were not baptised for good reasons), but whose parents have more to worry about than turning up regularly at church and getting involved in good works, fail to achieve enough points to gain a place.

Many of the posh kids are pushed off to private schools at the end of their primary school career, but at least mummy and daddy haven't had to break into their bonus to pay fees until then. The whole system stinks.

[ 01. July 2012, 15:06: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by Alisdair (# 15837) on :

Feel somewhat sympathetic to Angaloid's view. Having grown up in a country where if you want a 'religious education' for your child you have to pay for it, otherwise everyone has to muck in together and any 'religious instruction' takes place informally during lunch hours or after school, I find the English system rather bizarre---neither one thing nor the other, and wide open to abuse and bad feeling.

Whatever the alleged benefits offered by 'church schools', the system seems to do no favours in advancing the value and truth of 'Christian' practice, let alone faith, to society as a whole.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Scotland,although part of the UK, has had since the beginning of the UK in 1707 its own educational system.The overwhelming majority of church schools which educate about 20% of school population are fully integrated into the public education system.
Though again the overwhelming majority of church schools are RC there are one or two Scottish Episcopalian schools and at least one Jewish primary school.In the RC schools the local bishop can object to the employment of anyone who claims to be a Catholic who is not in his eyes a suitable Catholic role model.I think it is the same for the Scottish Episcoplaina bishops. The bishops cannot complain about the religious views of those who do not claim to be Catholic.
Notre Dame secondary school in Glasgow is the only single sex state school in Scotland and attract a significant number of girls from the Islamic community as well as others whose short,short skirts would never have been allowed by the Sisters of Notre Dame a generation or so ago.One of the few Catholic private schools in Scotland is the Jesuit school in Glasgow which for about 20 years now has had girl pupils.The girls there are probably about the only girls in Glasgow who wear skirts below the knee.
There is no bar on non-baptised children in any of the state RC schools,so no necessity to go to church to send one's children to these schools.

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I feel that if you want to attend a church school you should expect to accept their requirements. Otherwise go to a government school.
A lot of Church schools in the UK are government schools. The problems arise when they are popular 'outstanding' schools. Then you get many 'conversions' to keen Christianity, which last until the child goes to high school!

High School! You should see the drop in Sunday attendance the week after our local CofE (VA) send out their acceptance letters.
As for Tubbs 'down the road school' where the clergy families always get in, how do they do that? Our lay reader's granddaughter (whose father is off to train for priesthood himself next year) didn't even get in to our school!
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I feel that if you want to attend a church school you should expect to accept their requirements. Otherwise go to a government school.
A lot of Church schools in the UK are government schools. The problems arise when they are popular 'outstanding' schools. Then you get many 'conversions' to keen Christianity, which last until the child goes to high school!
High School! You should see the drop in Sunday attendance the week after our local CofE (VA) send out their acceptance letters.
As for Tubbs 'down the road school' where the clergy families always get in, how do they do that? Our lay reader's granddaughter (whose father is off to train for priesthood himself next year) didn't even get in to our school!
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

In the case of this school - and most of the secondary's - I was talking about people who applied on church grounds who were non-doms rather than Anglicans. Non-dom clergy children usually got in, but anyone may as well not have bothered ... However actively involved they were in their church.

There is an order of priority - children in local authority care, siblings, church attendance if applicable and catchment. If it's a small school and you're unlucky enough to be applying in a year where there are a lot of siblings, then you're potentally stuffed however good your church credentials ... All the other places will be allocated on catchment. We didn't get into the school two streets away as all the places got taken up by siblings. Blooming twins! It may not be fair, but no system is.

Tubbs

[ 01. July 2012, 20:29: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

And there are lots of primary CofE schools in London centre, which are very "small" - only one class every year. And there are many other religion who get in as well as the CofE ones. It's difficult to get the children into the local school. They take a definite amount of CofE children and then others too - so many CofE children still don't get in.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
You should see the drop in Sunday attendance the week after our local CofE (VA) send out their acceptance letters.
As for Tubbs 'down the road school' where the clergy families always get in, how do they do that? Our lay reader's granddaughter (whose father is off to train for priesthood himself next year) didn't even get in to our school!
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

How is a church school to make a distinction between applicants who attend church just to play the system, and those who are 'true believers'? It would require an intolerable level of intrusion to separate one group from the other, and the CofE in particular would come in for a lot of criticism for pursuing this course of action.

The problem is simply that what makes these schools so desirable is what makes them so hard to get into. The CofE could suddenly decide to abandon their exclusivity and to make places available to everyone who wanted one, but that's not what most parents really want; they want the exclusivity, so long as their own children can be on the inside of it.

I can't see a solution, really.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
You should see the drop in Sunday attendance the week after our local CofE (VA) send out their acceptance letters.
As for Tubbs 'down the road school' where the clergy families always get in, how do they do that? Our lay reader's granddaughter (whose father is off to train for priesthood himself next year) didn't even get in to our school!
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
How is a church school to make a distinction between applicants who attend church just to play the system, and those who are 'true believers'? It would require an intolerable level of intrusion to separate one group from the other, and the CofE in particular would come in for a lot of criticism for pursuing this course of action.

The problem is simply that what makes these schools so desirable is what makes them so hard to get into. The CofE could suddenly decide to abandon their exclusivity and to make places available to everyone who wanted one, but that's not what most parents really want; they want the exclusivity, so long as their own children can be on the inside of it.

I can't see a solution, really.

The council / church schools where we used to live tried a combination of interviews with the children (secondary only) ; letters from the parents explaining in some detail their involvement with the church and a clergy reference (primary and secondary). Limiting applications on religious grounds to the church school nearest you – and only allowing you to apply to others on the basis of catchment.

This often meant that you didn’t get into a church school at all if your local one was over-subscribed as you were outside the catchment area for any of the others. OTH, it meant that you didn’t end up at a school an hour’s drive away in typical school run traffic.

In the past, RC schools didn’t have the same issues as it’s harder to fake being a Catholic – and most non-doms didn’t try to get into them. The increase in the number of Eastern European living in the UK means they now are as there are more eligible families chasing the same number of places in some areas.

Tubbs

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

One of our previous clergy did not have his kids baptised - he , and more likely the mother, wanted them to 'wait until they are old enough to decide for themselves.'

They didn't get into a church school.

Mind you, i don't think they approved of church schools either.

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

My youngest goes to an oversubscribed VA secondary school. Their admission criteria includes number of years a parent has been on the electoral roll of an Anglican plus a clergy letter. Word on the grapevine is that you need to have at least 3 years on the roll to get in. It is a good school but doesn't suit everyone.

The local VA primary is undersubscribed as it is in an area of social depravation and happily takes all comers.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

In my local area, church attendance is the important factor. If you are applying on church criteria then you need a form filling in, from the vicar, saying for how long and how often you attend church.

However these are only taken into account if the school is oversubscribed.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I remember when one of my sons got a place at our local CofE school which was oversubscribed - people who lived in the catchment area usually had no trouble getting in. But there was also a hatched area, which was shared by 3 schools. One child didn't get a place even though he and his family were regular church attenders, because they attended the 'wrong' church, i.e. a CofE church in the hatched area rather than the one next to the school. So even being CofE attenders may not be good enough, unless it is the 'right' CofE church!

I was also told, by a Cathedral choir Director, played by parents of primary school children. They got into the cathedral choir in year 4, thus qualifying to go to the best secondary school in the area (which has connections with the Cathedral). But having secured their place, they then took their children out of the choir, thus leaving the Cathedral in the lurch as there was not time to train up other children to the same standard to immediately take their place.

The school selection race really does bring out the worst in parents. But who can really blame them if they want the best for their child?

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

If the school is over subscribed, then distance to school comes into play as well.

The criteria are laid down by the local authority and they do the allocating of school places too.

Posted by catthefat (# 8586) on :

Church schools are selective and elitist. Aparteid on the basis of parental religion leads to a stinking system.
Lie to get in if you think it's ok, most do.

Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on :

quote:
Originally posted by catthefat:
Church schools are selective and elitist. Aparteid on the basis of parental religion leads to a stinking system.

Nice one.

Religious families are the elite of British society. You heard it first here, on the ship.

Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :

To show a somewhat different face of church schools... The Opuses' previous primary was CofE VA - not that you'd ever know it. Their religious teaching was virtually non-existant - well, of Christianity, anyway. Islam, Buddhism, and Sikhism all got covered. Academic attainment was well below average, and socially it was not a good place either.

The intake was very mixed - partly from academic families both UK and foreign (being in a university city, there were a reasonable number of both these), partly white working-class, and partly from the local Bangladeshi community - who generally wanted as little involvement in the school as possible, and were (contrary to general perceptions of Asian immigrants) apparently not particularly supportive of education. Certainly there was a disproportionately high level of children from the Bangladeshi families in the groups needing reading support.

Certainly it was a world away from the 'high-achieving white middle-class school' that is so often assumed by 'Church school'. To get a place at this school, you simply had to list it anywhere on your schools application form. Even if it was your last choice and you didn't live in catchment, no problem - you'd get in. Op 1's first school, however, was much more the stereotype, and yes, there if you were non-church (of any kind) and lived in catchment with no children already at the school, you stood a reasonable chance of getting in depending on how far away you were. I don't know of a year when some church-affiliated people didn't get in.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The school selection race really does bring out the worst in parents. But who can really blame them if they want the best for their child?

And that's the heart of the problem: the whole school selection business. it's not (just) that (some) church schools are selective and elitist; if all church schools were secularised tomorrow, and nothing else about them changed, there would still be schools that people lied to get their kids into and schools that people lied to keep their kids out of. The basic aim of education policy in this respect should be to ensure that all schools are decent and then you can just send your kids to the one in whose catchment area you are. But that would require a commitment to equality which would go against the whole poisonous political tide of the last 30 years in Britain.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I'm afraid I don't understand leaving children until they are able to decide for themselves on important issues. Parents don't usually do this with other issues such as manners, cleaning the teeth, tidying the kid's room, homework, eating up their meal etc. How can matters of faith be any different unless the parents are actually non believers. If the parents are non believers then why choose a church school? I realise that I am not part of the situation in England, but surely child rearing standards are consistent among us all.

Posted by Felafool (# 270) on :

Because of my alter ego it would have to be an Aston Martin Vantage, for me one of the most beautiful car designs ever.

Posted by Felafool (# 270) on :

Apologies for the previous post...it's an old post that keeps cropping up.

As a pastor of a non-anglican church in a previous life, I had to fill out and countersign numerous forms giving supporting evidence for applications to the popular local primary and secondary CofE schools.

The system is open to abuse, and is openly abused. I sometimes felt it was completely counter to what I think Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God - the upside down Kingdom where the first shall be last.

I wondered sometimes what would happen if these schools operated like that....welcoming in the unqualified, 'un-churched', dare I say it, the problem children from problem families. Easy to say from the sidelines, but what impact might that make on education and the church's mission?

Posted by Loveheart (# 12249) on :

Our nearest church secondary school gives priority to baptised members of the C of E/RC church with a supporting letter from their priest. I know of one family for whom this caused problems.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
If the parents are non believers then why choose a church school? I realise that I am not part of the situation in England, but surely child rearing standards are consistent among us all.

Church schools are not independent, they are part of the local authority education system. Off the top of my head a church Voluntary Controlled school is funded in exactly the same way as a secular local authority school, i.e. 100% of capital and running costs come from the tax payer. In the case of a church Voluntary Aided school 100% of the running costs and 95% of the capital costs are provided by the taxpayer. So a non-believing taxpayer may well take the view that their children should not be excluded from a school that they almost entirely fund.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Also church schools are often (rightly or wrongly) perceived as having higher academic and behaviour standards than some other schools. So some non-believing parents will happily put up with a bit of religious guff (as they see it) to get their child a better education.

One of my Dad's old colleagues had spent time teaching in a primary school in one of the rougher parts of Liverpool. When it came to choosing secondary schools, she would always ask parents "are you a lapsed Catholic?" If they said yes, she would tell them very bluntly to go and become an unlapsed one for a while. Because she knew that the children in question would get a better education in the local Catholic schools than in the local non-religious comprehensives.

Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
If the parents are non believers then why choose a church school? I realise that I am not part of the situation in England, but surely child rearing standards are consistent among us all.

Because the only school in their village is a church school (as are most of the other village schools in a 5-mile radius).

Because regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, many parents want to send their children to the school where they will get what is seen as the 'best' education; if the 'best' school locally is a church school, then that's where they want their children to go.

Because that's where the majority of their children's friends from pre-school are going, and they're not so anti-religious that it offends their principles.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm afraid I don't understand leaving children until they are able to decide for themselves on important issues. Parents don't usually do this with other issues such as manners, cleaning the teeth, tidying the kid's room, homework, eating up their meal etc. How can matters of faith be any different unless the parents are actually non believers. If the parents are non believers then why choose a church school? I realise that I am not part of the situation in England, but surely child rearing standards are consistent among us all.

Getting your child baptised is of a different order - rather similar to marriage. Baptism commits one to the Christian faith.

If parents can force this commitment on their children, then i suppose they can arrange their marriage too.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I remember when one of my sons got a place at our local CofE school which was oversubscribed - people who lived in the catchment area usually had no trouble getting in. But there was also a hatched area, which was shared by 3 schools. One child didn't get a place even though he and his family were regular church attenders, because they attended the 'wrong' church, i.e. a CofE church in the hatched area rather than the one next to the school. So even being CofE attenders may not be good enough, unless it is the 'right' CofE church!

That happened to my son's little one when they applied for the local CofE school and he didn't get accepted, despite living 5 minutes from it. My son is a church musician, and he was working in two churches, (three sessions every Sunday, two in the morning in one church and one in the evening at the church he belongs to). His two little ones are in a further away CofE school, connected only with belonging and having been "baptised" there.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Also church schools are often (rightly or wrongly) perceived as having higher academic and behaviour standards than some other schools. So some non-believing parents will happily put up with a bit of religious guff (as they see it) to get their child a better education.

And according to the law in England all schools have to have an element of religious guff - school prayers, religious education - so it could be argued that with a church school it's only a question of degree, not a fundamental difference.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beethoven:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
If the parents are non believers then why choose a church school? I realise that I am not part of the situation in England, but surely child rearing standards are consistent among us all.
Because the only school in their village is a church school (as are most of the other village schools in a 5-mile radius).

Because regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, many parents want to send their children to the school where they will get what is seen as the 'best' education; if the 'best' school locally is a church school, then that's where they want their children to go.

Because that's where the majority of their children's friends from pre-school are going, and they're not so anti-religious that it offends their principles.

And also because in many parts of England church schools are seen as a way to separate little Johnny from the council estate oiks down the road, and so they appeal to middle-class conservative parents who don't want to mix with the rest of us. Which is also why no likely British government is likely to do anything about it (*) That's not true everywhere. Its not true where I live in London where the church schools (like the churches) are overwhelmingly black. But in leafy suburbs it is often like that.

(*) Tories won't because its their voters who use them that way; Labour won't because they think they are vulnerable to propaganda about socialism trying to make everyone equal, and about "dumbing down", so they never do implement any radical educational reforms (**); Liberals won't because after the fiasco of the coalition they will never again in the forseeable future get more than two men and a dog elected to Westminster.

(**) The post-war Education Act act was actually a Tory policy implemented by Labour, it was a Tory government that tried (and failed) to make comprehensive schools compulsory, it was a Tory government that ahbolished the old O-levels and invented the one-size-fits-all GCSE, it was a Tory goverment that abolished the distinction between the old Polytechnics and Universities, it was a Tory goverment that stripped most secondary schools of their sixth forms and sent them to FE colleges instead, it was a Tory government that started the National Curriculum and OFSTED, later slavishly followed by so-called New Labour.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Also church schools are often (rightly or wrongly) perceived as having higher academic and behaviour standards than some other schools. So some non-believing parents will happily put up with a bit of religious guff (as they see it) to get their child a better education.
And according to the law in England all schools have to have an element of religious guff - school prayers, religious education - so it could be argued that with a church school it's only a question of degree, not a fundamental difference.

No - collective worship does not have to include prayers - in fact, it usually doesn't

RE is more multi-faith - in church schools it need not cover anything apart from its own, denominational brand of, Christianity.

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