Ship of Fools: Christianity and compassion

Thread: Christianity and compassion Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

What happened to compassion in this man's case?

Is there a link between this and a 'secular' society which has abandoned Christian values?

If brought up as Christians, how likely is it that the nurses would have behaved differently?

Might 'training' encourage too much detachment?

Posted by Nicolemrw (# 28) on :

What makes you think the nurses were not brought up as Christians?

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

I've read through that article carefully (for which you owe me an apology given it's the Daily Mail) and can see no suggestion that secular society had any role to play, or that the nurses were not brought up as Christians. Or vice versa if it comes to that. So basically you're standing on an unsupported soapbox waving around a strawman.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I apologise for my wording. Please replace the second question with:

How likely is it that the nurses' upbringing, whether Christian or not, affected their behaviour?

I'm not waving a soapbox, simply wondering why the lack of compassion, and wondering whether there's any connection with a lack of Christian input.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

Certainly, a proper Muslim would not have treated the boy that way...

--Tom Clune

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I apologise for my wording. Please replace the second question with:

How likely is it that the nurses' upbringing, whether Christian or not, affected their behaviour?

I'm not waving a soapbox, simply wondering why the lack of compassion, and wondering whether there's any connection with a lack of Christian input.

Was there a "lack of Christian input"? You're just begging the same question again on the basis of what seems like no evidence and a load of prejudices.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Don't you agree that there was a lack of compassion shown here? Why do you think it happened?

Posted by CJ (# 2166) on :

Poor training, leadership and team communication, and chronic understaffing are far more likely contributing factors to poor care than speculation about upbringing. I've worked with Christian nurses who are compassionate and professional and also some who were utterly useless, lazy and self serving. Same for atheist nurses. But most of the time I don't know their religious backgrounds and wouldn't ask. None of my, or the patients' business. What is is skills and attitude. Mostly those are good but I've worked on wards where the culture is poor and that can become a vicious circle; it takes a lot of work and strong leadership to change ward culture. Really don't see that religious upbringing has anything to do with it.

(edited to add: not picking on nurses, just responding to the case raised. All the above goes for doctors, physios, radiographers...)

[ 03. July 2012, 18:45: Message edited by: CJ ]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Don't you agree that there was a lack of compassion shown here? Why do you think it happened?

Certainly a lack of competence. But what I'm questioning is your automatic equation of Christianity with compassion. A lot of very compassioniate people are non-Christians, and a lot of Christians are total assholes. My personal experience is that Christians tend to talk a good game about compassion.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

While I agree that Christians are not perfect and don't always manage to put it into practice, there's surely a strong correlation between Christianity and compassion: Jesus was moved with compassion, Christians follow the example of Jesus.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

Except when they don't. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by CJ (# 2166) on :

Maybe in theory, but I see very little evidence of correlation day to day in hospitals or anywhere else. Not that there aren't many very compassionate (actively so) Christians. But completely unconvinced that they are proportionally more so than their atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Hindu , or indeed Jedi colleagues.

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

It's an horrendous story. A lack of competence certainly, and also compassion: particularly with the grieving relatives. Surely all medical staff are trained for dealing with grieving relatives? But in an understaffed, underfunded, overcrowded hospital - conjecture I admit - mistakes are going to be made, and compounded. Sadly this won't have been the first time something like this has happened, and it won't be the last.

But as to Christian upbringing and all that, really not so sure. I would say that the more important thing is not to run our NHS hospitals like businesses, but like hospitals.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

A Buddhist would also be strongly motivated by compassion. Why does non-Christian equal secular?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

We get what we vote for.

Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :

It sounds like a desperately sad story and an utterly inexcusable tragic end to a young man's life.

That said we have only heard half the story, that of the family, we have little understanding as to what if anything led to such an awful chain of events. That isn't an excuse it's just an observation.

I get really tired of people getting on the 'trained nurses are all lacking in compassion' high horse. Compassion and academic competence are not a valid dichotomy.

I am not sure what happened here but I refuse to believe that an entire ward full of nurses would deliberately neglect someone to the point of death and conspire to make sure it remained that way. You might find one who wouldn't care but not a ward full, no way.

No doubt there were serious failings in communication and understanding and this was probably fuelled by overwork and lack of understanding of the behaviour the patient displayed. The other likely contributory factor is that the ward culture was rotten or corrupted in some way as to not provide a supportive working culture.

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

I think you are probably right Macrina. It seems most likely that something went wrong with the write up of his medication - generally in a hospital medication is dispensed under supervision and then locked up so there shouldn't have been a packet of it about.

I wonder if he hadn't been written up for the medication to manage his pituitary condition (first error) and so mother brought in the medication he had at home and asked them to give it. Which they would have refused to do and/or would have meant that the medication chart remained uncorrected (second error). Poor handover might have meant they attributed his disturbed behaviour to the brain tumour and thought his mother was being officious (third error).

Somewhere along the line he seems to have lost his ability to do things for himself - in a way that is not clear from the article. Why could he not get out of bed, and why was he supposed to be on a drip ? Did this mean he was supposed to be nil by mouth ? If so is this why they weren't giving him water ?

The BBC covered this a couple of years ago http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8553343.stm

I wonder if the locum doctors are also a key part of the story.

[ 03. July 2012, 22:23: Message edited by: Think² ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
While I agree that Christians are not perfect and don't always manage to put it into practice, there's surely a strong correlation between Christianity and compassion: Jesus was moved with compassion, Christians follow the example of Jesus.

Which as Croesos points out, totally fails to demonstrate that ONLY Christians are moved with compassion. Even if Christianity, properly observed, leads to compassion, you cannot reason backwards to say that a person who demonstrates compassion must be a Christian.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

It's not a faith issue at all. There is a good deal of anecdotal evidence of what a medical friend has characterised as "hands off" nursing. Her concerns (and research) have been trying to get to the bottom of the selection, training and management practices which may be contributing to this behaviour.

And of course getting at the facts is by no means easy given the "politicisation" of performance targets both by governments and managements. Plus anti-litigation defences.

FWIW, I think the fragmentation of traditional nursing roles has led to some loss of awareness that the primary personal responsibility is to care for the patient. In this particular case, the lack of care seems to have been related to a lack of awareness of the specific caring needs. I've heard other similar stories.

My own experiences of care in NHS hospitals (two relatively minor ops under general anaesthetic, two spells of monitoring because of severe heart irregularities) has been very good. In all four cases, the condition being treated were well known and subject to well established routines. "By rote" was what was required, and was done very well. Plus they told me I was a "model patient" (whatever that meant).

But based on my own limited hearing of the stories of others, the problems can arise when your condition is less well known, or requiring unusual support. I've certainly heard, for example, of mix-ups over the administration of drugs for pre-existing conditions). And cases where there seemed to have been some breakdown between specific information provided in advance about a patient's pre-existing condition and the awareness levels of the staff.

In general, if responsibility gets fragmented, you get confusion over what any particular care provider "needs to know". If you only have a bit of the responsibility, do you need to know the whole story? The more fragmented the responsibility, the greater the need for effective communications and handovers.

All of this can fall by the wayside when cost pressures have significant effects on staffing levels. Folks lose some awareness of the inherent risks. Plus everyone who has ever worked anywhere knows that they have off days.

Put that all together, and tragedies, like this one, can and do happen.

Commenting on Martin not PC's observation, I think it is more a case of getting what we are prepared to pay for. This whole fragmenting process was triggered by cost-cutting and efficiency considerations. "Do we really need fully trained nurses to do that?" Etc. Something got lost on the way. And there is no easy way back, either. Not that "back" was perfect, either.

[ 04. July 2012, 08:58: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :

As per Think2's post, this tragedy could have been prevented through better communication between the medical staff. We do not know the exact facts, and the Daily Mail typically puts its own "spin" on events.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

I think the OP is asking a valid question but illustrating it with an irrelevant story. To answer the question, I imagine Christians are more likely to demonstrate compassion for others than non-Christians, caeteris paribus.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Yorick: I imagine Christians are more likely to demonstrate compassion for others than non-Christians, caeteris paribus.

I certainly hope so, but I'm not sure if it's true.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

In my very limited experience, it is.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Yorick: In my very limited experience, it is.

I'm glad to hear that.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Well don't get too pleased about it. It is my feeling that Christians- all else being equal- are more likely to demonstrate their compassion, but this is only based on my very limited experience of the behaviour of Christians and non-Christians, and I haven’t met all of them yet!

The other important thing is the word ‘demonstrate’. I very carefully did not say I think atheists are less compassionate than Christians, just that Christians are more likely to demonstrate that compassion. The reasons for their doing so are perhaps a matter for interesting conjecture, but not all of it is to do with their being better people in any sense.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Yorick: I very carefully did not say I think atheists are less compassionate than Christians, just that Christians are more likely to demonstrate that compassion.

I'm not completely sure what the difference would be between being compassionate and demonstrating compassion.

I mean, suppose I fall off my bycicle, and someone helps me up again. Does it really make a difference to me if this person is compassionate or if (s)he only demonstrates compassion?

I guess there is an exception when people only demonstrate compassion to brag about it later. In fact, Jesus had a lot to say about that.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
...I fall off my bycicle, and someone helps me up again. Does it really make a difference to me if this person is compassionate or if (s)he only demonstrates compassion?

I would say they're demonstrating their compassion by helping you up again. They're walking the walk, as it were, and I reckon Christians are better at doing that than non-Christians.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

It's a tabloid newspaper. Are you naive enough to expect facts?

A lot of non theists have compassion of course but when we look at Christians are you adding the westborough baptists and right wingers into the equation? Doesn't their blatant lack of compassion bring down the "score" on the Christian side?

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
What happened to compassion in this man's case?

Is there a link between this and a 'secular' society which has abandoned Christian values?

If brought up as Christians, how likely is it that the nurses would have behaved differently?

Might 'training' encourage too much detachment?

I think I'll keep this in Purgatory. But it's close.

Why on earth do you think the nurses weren't brought up as Christians?

What on earth makes you think that the good functioning of the NHS and the level of compassion we expect of it is Christian in origin? Nye Bevan, the man most responsible for the NHS appears to have had faith in Socialism but none in Christianity. So yes, there's a link between this incident and secular society. Secular society set up the NHS and occasionally fails. Christian society, in its many centuries, didn't even come close to setting up the NHS. It wouldn't have been an issue with Christian society because good medical care was not expected in Christian society.

As for compassion deriving from Jesus Christ, Jesus wept! There is a strong injection of compassion into the biblical narrative. But the direction of compassion isn't with the compassion coming from the bastard who created the Plague on the Firstborn and who drowned the whole world in a flood. The compassion injection comes because the formerly untouchable God is now man and can therefore weep. The compassionate side of the Incarnate Deity is the man, not the God.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick (replying to whether it is more likely that Christians would show compassion):
In my very limited experience, it is.

How limited? I've met compassionate Christains, atheists, Buddhists and Jews. But that just reflects the people I know. I only know two Buddhists for example - maybe they are unusual and all this stuff about "compassion for all sentient beings" is just words. Maybe I need to get out more. Is there a word (maybe 'creedism'?) for stereotyping people with different belief systems?

It might be pertinent to point out that the reported case reached national headlines because it was so contrary to our usual experience of medical staff. And that the people mentioned have probably shown compassion many times before whilst, especially in the case of ancilliary staff, nurses and junior doctors, being overworked, under-paid and often getting abuse from patients.

Looking at cases where things go wrong is rather pointless. It's always possible to find cases where it didn't (though they don't make it into the papers so often). Perhaps more significantly surveys of people's attitude to the NHS usually find satisfaction with their own tratment but a sense that it's failing over all. Surely that suggests one sided reporting.

In case you think I'm too pro-NHS, I've been waiting over a month for test results which I've been told were available the day the tests were done. Things don't always work out right is all - especially in big bureaucracies.

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

quote:
The compassionate side of the Incarnate Deity is the man, not the God.

Would make an interesting discussion in itself.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Yorick: I would say they're demonstrating their compassion by helping you up again. They're walking the walk, as it were, and I reckon Christians are better at doing that than non-Christians.

But he did help me up my bicycle. Why would I complain?

What would be the difference to me between someone helping me up my bicicle but who didn't really feel compassion, and someone who helped me who did? The result is the same.

I don't think I would stop ask: "Could you tell me please if you really felt compassion when you helped me? Because if not, I'm going to lie down on the ground again with all my groceries around me." On the contrary, I'd just give them a heartily "Thank you very much!"

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

I’m sorry, I didn’t put it very clearly. You asked what is the difference between being compassionate, and demonstrating compassion. I replied that anyone who helps you up from a fall is demonstrating compassion, with the implication that their simply feeling sorry for you on the floor (and not helping you up) is being compassionate. The perhaps controversial point is that (I reckon) Christians are more likely to demonstrate their compassion by doing something to help. They are more likely to give to charitable causes, for example, than others who may also feel compassion for those causes.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Yorick: I replied that anyone who helps you up from a fall is demonstrating compassion, with the implication that their simply feeling sorry for you on the floor (and not helping you up) is being compassionate.

Ah, I understand you better now. And I guess Jesus told a parable about this [Biased]

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Oh, yes. (Damn and blast the insidious effect of childhood inculcation on one's authentically creative thinking!)

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Thank you for your thoughts. Must do better [Hot and Hormonal]

I won't post in a hurry in the future, and I'll find a better source.

I didn't say that only Christians have compassion, but I do expect to see compassion demonstrated by Christians. I would try to seek out a Christian hospice, for example, if I or a relative needed one. Christians founded many of the hospitals in Britain, and provided whatever health care they could to the poor.

While I can appreciate the pressures of work and lack of funding, these don't excuse the uncaring attitude which comes across in the report. I declare a bias in that I too was given short shrift from nurses when I kept asking for water in hospital. It turned out that there was a problem with the drip.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

If Christians are more compassionate than non-Christians, particularly in the medical profession, we shouldn't expect to find explicitly Christian hospitals engaging in a decades-long child theft conspiracy, at first in collusion with a fascist government punishing its enemies and other undesirables and then later on a purely for-profit basis.

Of course in reality, we get those involved in that conspiracy trading on the cheap stereotypes RE is endorsing to deflect suspicion.

quote:
Nine interminable hours passed. "Then, a nun, who was also a nurse, coldly informed me that my baby had died," she says.

They would not let her have her son's body, nor would they tell her when the funeral would be.

Did she not think to question the hospital staff?

"Doctors, nuns?" she says, almost in horror. "I couldn't accuse them of lying. This was Franco's Spain. A dictatorship. Even now we Spaniards tend not to question authority."

Compassion!

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