Ship of Fools: In God we Trust...

Thread: In God we Trust... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

...to what?

I think that trust, for me, is a mostly useless word without a qualifier of some sort. Like...I trust my bank to keep an honest account of my checking and savings. I don't trust them to use my money in ways that I would approve of, or to have my best interests in mind. I trust my wife to have my best interests in mind, but I might not agree with her judgment as to how to serve them, or necessarily to keep a fully accurate record of our accounts (see the nuance?). Trust seems to be more useful when it means "I can rely on you to do a certain thing."

And if there is such a thing as unconditional trust, what is that and how does it relate to realistic trust? I trust this rock to be a rock and act like a rock?

So, when it comes to God, people like to say they trust God at all times and all that, but what exactly do they trust God for? Prosperity? Comfort? A blissful afterlife? A pillar of fire and cloud in the wilderness?

Just a thought I have had that sprang of some other thoughts I had had.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

The thing I feel about God can't be described as trust. The word I use is hope. I hope God exists and will be with me to, and beyond, the end of my days.

But I don't trust God with everyday details or provision - I see no evidence that God has anything to do with them.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
So, when it comes to God, people like to say they trust God at all times and all that, but what exactly do they trust God for? Prosperity? Comfort? A blissful afterlife? A pillar of fire and cloud in the wilderness?

I trust God that this - this world and all its problems - is worth the effort. That creation and fall and redemption is a good idea. That he's doing the right thing.

I did the story of Jeremiah buying the field with my Sunday school group yesterday: the prophet had no confidence that the property he was buying at God's command was at all secure, and on the contrary was convinced that the kingdom was about to fall. But he did have confidence that this would not be the end of the story, and that God still had a plan that he would accomplish, and that it was worthwhile, even if Jeremiah never lived to see it. That's what I think of as trust in God.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I trust (well, I try to, I have my bad days) in God to be God--trustworthy, faithful, reliable, good, and merciful as often as he can get away with it. I also trust him to know better than myself when he can get away with it and when what I consider "mercy" would have worse consequences in the long run than letting me suffer.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I'm with LC. I trust in God to be God, not to do anything in particular. I trust that God won't let me down, that God will always be with me, ready to help pick me up when I fall or when I'm knocked down by life and human relationships.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I agree with what Boogie says about "Hope". I feel that trusting in that Hope, (not forlorn hope but Blessed Hope), is as near to trusting in God as I can get.

These things don't translate into words very well . Without wanting to make disparaging remarks about the Bible, it is nevertheless a book of words . Many of those words are of immense spiritual value, yet some of those words describe a God I'm not always comfortable in trusting.

Posted by Rosina (# 15589) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
...to what?

to fulfill His promises

[Smile]

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

The term "In God We Trust" was added to United States coinage during the McCarthy Era. The thought was a self respecting communist would not be able to use those coins because, well, they are atheist.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The term "In God We Trust" was added to United States coinage during the McCarthy Era. The thought was a self respecting communist would not be able to use those coins because, well, they are atheist.

that was random.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The term "In God We Trust" was added to United States coinage during the McCarthy Era. The thought was a self respecting communist would not be able to use those coins because, well, they are atheist.
that was random.

It did add weight to what I suspected. I don't think we use the expression "in God we trust" on this side of the pond.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

I trust God, but I'm also upfront with him about when I'm not feeling all that trustful or just plain don't like what I think he's doing. In that honesty I generally find the grace I need to get through it with a bit more trust.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I'm with LC. I trust in God to be God, not to do anything in particular. I trust that God won't let me down, that God will always be with me, ready to help pick me up when I fall or when I'm knocked down by life and human relationships.

Unless you have a pretty good ideal what God is like and what they are likely to do then isn't it a bit of a risk to trust that God will be God?

In general on this thread is trust being used in place of faith?

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot
Unless you have a pretty good ideal what God is like and what they are likely to do then isn't it a bit of a risk to trust that God will be God?

I don't follow your logic. If someone believes in God (i.e. believes he exists), then it cannot be a risk to trust him, because "God will be God" whether he trusts him or not.

It seems to me that there are only two options vis-a-vis the Christian God: not to believe that he exists at all, or to believe he exists and to trust him. The idea that one could believe he exists but regard it as too much of a risk to trust him, seems bizarre to me.

Or is that not what you are saying? If so, then what are you saying?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

It seems to me that there are only two options vis-a-vis the Christian God: not to believe that he exists at all, or to believe he exists and to trust him. The idea that one could believe he exists but regard it as too much of a risk to trust him, seems bizarre to me.

Yes - but what to trust him with?

I don't trust him with my family - he's not been 'good' to some of them. I don't trust him to provide for me. The only people who do so I find 'begging' in prayer and people provide for them. I don't trust him to protect me from evil - he didn't when evil came along and knocked me sideways.

It's the ultimate, cosmic things I trust God with - not the details of everyday life.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

@EtymologicalEvangelical What I mean is that a christian is limited to how much "knowledge" of God they can acquire. Especially when the God in question is said to have infinite properties. So how do they know enough about this mysterious god to know that God being God would be a good thing.

But I think I understand your point. You are saying that by its very definition the word God means a good God.

So for me to question the goodness of God would be like if I held a ripe banana and said, "I'm not eating this it might not be ripe".

Is that right?

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Unless you have a pretty good ideal what God is like and what they are likely to do then isn't it a bit of a risk to trust that God will be God?

In general on this thread is trust being used in place of faith?

There's no telling what other people are likely to do. God doesn't promise a rose garden, quite the opposite!

'Having a pretty good idea of what God is like' doesn't mean that we know much about God, but we can know the good core nature of God which is revealed to us through relationship. This helps to foster faith, hope, and love. Trust is embedded into faith.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The term "In God We Trust" was added to United States coinage during the McCarthy Era. The thought was a self respecting communist would not be able to use those coins because, well, they are atheist.

According to Wikipedia 'In God we trust' has been on US coins since 1864. It was adopted as the official US motto in 1956.

I remember the old joke that the words 'In God we trust' were put on pennies for the benefit of those who used them as a substitute for fuses.

Moo

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The term "In God We Trust" was added to United States coinage during the McCarthy Era. The thought was a self respecting communist would not be able to use those coins because, well, they are atheist.
According to Wikipedia 'In God we trust' has been on US coins since 1864. It was adopted as the official US motto in 1956.

I remember the old joke that the words 'In God we trust' were put on pennies for the benefit of those who used them as a substitute for fuses.

Moo

Wasn't it the line "one nation under God" that was added to the pledge of allegiance during the McCarthy era to tweak the communists?

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

@Raptor Eye

The revealed to us through relationship thing is something I never experienced throughout my many years as a Christian so I'd have to take other peoples word for it.

Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on :

Dictionary.com

quote:
Faith: confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

So yes people can use faith and trust to mean the same thing. Might as well ask what you have faith in God to do. Or maybe we should just have faith that God is.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
@Raptor Eye

The revealed to us through relationship thing is something I never experienced throughout my many years as a Christian so I'd have to take other peoples word for it.

I must admit that I try to avoid phrases like "personal relationship" - what exactly do they mean? Here's where Pope Benedict XVI helped me out, by stating that we should be friends with Jesus - that makes far more sense to me, as it did for the writer of "What a friend we have in Jesus."

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
Might as well ask what you have faith in God to do. Or maybe we should just have faith that God is.

That's about the nub of it for me .
Faith that God "is" . Yet a different , not very trustworthy and wobbly faith in what a god of all wisdom and all power actually does with those resources.

I think it's called the intellect battling with the intuition . ISTM that believing in God who is 'beyond our understanding' is the only real way around it, if you want to stay sane that is .

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
@Raptor Eye

The revealed to us through relationship thing is something I never experienced throughout my many years as a Christian so I'd have to take other peoples word for it.

A genuine question: Did you never experience the close presence of the Divine at any time as a Christian, or have you subsequently decided that any experience must have been imagined?

I found that when I drew near to God, God drew near to me. That was the beginning of relationship which over time has become ever closer, affirming and revelatory, so that now in awareness of God's nature which will always consistently influence everything for the good, I trust in God completely.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The term "In God We Trust" was added to United States coinage during the McCarthy Era. The thought was a self respecting communist would not be able to use those coins because, well, they are atheist.
that was random.
It did add weight to what I suspected. I don't think we use the expression "in God we trust" on this side of the pond.

It just seemed like a catchy headline. Would it be strange for a European Christian to say that they trust God?

Posted by Rosina (# 15589) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[QUOTE]

I found that when I drew near to God, God drew near to me. That was the beginning of relationship which over time has become ever closer, affirming and revelatory, so that now in awareness of God's nature which will always consistently influence everything for the good, I trust in God completely.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
@Raptor Eye

The revealed to us through relationship thing is something I never experienced throughout my many years as a Christian so I'd have to take other peoples word for it.
A genuine question: Did you never experience the close presence of the Divine at any time as a Christian, or have you subsequently decided that any experience must have been imagined?

I found that when I drew near to God, God drew near to me. That was the beginning of relationship which over time has become ever closer, affirming and revelatory, so that now in awareness of God's nature which will always consistently influence everything for the good, I trust in God completely.

The only time I can think of was when I thought I was speaking in tongues. Something everyone was encouraged to do at the time. It turned out I was inventing nonsense.

I spent many years at a charismatic church as well as some time at Anglican and high church of England churches. I certainly spent a lot of time dancing, singing and raising my hands because we were there to praise God. Also times of quiet contemplation and prayer. The most i ever experienced during these times was the sort of vague euphoria anyone would feel after sustained group exercise. I was always very honest with people when asked and told them truthfully that while I believed in God I wasn't aware of his presence. I remember at the time this caused some puzzlement in other people.

I'm trying to imagine what you mean when you talk about your growing relationship with God. My only context i have are the relationships I have with people. I'm assuming that you don't literally have a relationship with God as I understand the word.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
The only time I can think of was when I thought I was speaking in tongues. Something everyone was encouraged to do at the time. It turned out I was inventing nonsense.

I spent many years at a charismatic church as well as some time at Anglican and high church of England churches. I certainly spent a lot of time dancing, singing and raising my hands because we were there to praise God. Also times of quiet contemplation and prayer. The most i ever experienced during these times was the sort of vague euphoria anyone would feel after sustained group exercise. I was always very honest with people when asked and told them truthfully that while I believed in God I wasn't aware of his presence. I remember at the time this caused some puzzlement in other people.

I'm trying to imagine what you mean when you talk about your growing relationship with God. My only context i have are the relationships I have with people. I'm assuming that you don't literally have a relationship with God as I understand the word.

Thank you for your reply.

There are obvious differences between my relationships with people and that with God, not least as God is unseen and there can be no physical mutual interaction between us. However, in the same way as a very special relationship with another person may result in the mutual sensing of love and awareness of each other's closeness and desires, so we may live in relationship with God.

I know that many people do continue to believe in God even though they cannot honestly say that they have ever experienced God's presence, while others drift away for the same reason. We're all different and there is no one single way to relate with God. Some do so primarily through Church and tradition, others through the Bible, others through good works, some through contemplative prayer, and others through the intellect. No way is superior or inferior. The charismatic churches major on the experiential, as I think does the high Anglican tradition, in a different way.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A genuine question: Did you never experience the close presence of the Divine at any time as a Christian, or have you subsequently decided that any experience must have been imagined?

This issue fascinates me (an atheist who, as far as I can recall, has never had a religious instinct or feeling). How common is it for Christians to feel a presence or otherwise 'sense' God, as opposed to believing without such an experience?

William James, in "Varieties of Religious Experience", quotes numerous examples of such a sensation. Most subjects felt a positive presence, one felt a malign one, and one made me cry (a regular, supportive presence slowly faded over many years leaving the subject bereft). But of course those who don't feel such a presence don't get much mention.

I'm not scoring points here and I'm certainly not suggesting that those who are still 'taking it on trust' are wrong or foolish. I guess the football fan who continues to believe in a hopeless team, or someone believing that a better world is worth striving for are, sort of, in a similar position. It may just be that 'giving up' is a worse alternative - you then have nothing where at the moment we have some sort of hope.

I know there's a verse about those who have believed without seeing being the more praiseworthy (sorry, my knowledge of the NT isn't brilliant) but how common are they?

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
This issue fascinates me (an atheist who, as far as I can recall, has never had a religious instinct or feeling). How common is it for Christians to feel a presence or otherwise 'sense' God, as opposed to believing without such an experience?

William James, in "Varieties of Religious Experience", quotes numerous examples of such a sensation. Most subjects felt a positive presence, one felt a malign one, and one made me cry (a regular, supportive presence slowly faded over many years leaving the subject bereft). But of course those who don't feel such a presence don't get much mention.

I'm not scoring points here and I'm certainly not suggesting that those who are still 'taking it on trust' are wrong or foolish. I guess the football fan who continues to believe in a hopeless team, or someone believing that a better world is worth striving for are, sort of, in a similar position. It may just be that 'giving up' is a worse alternative - you then have nothing where at the moment we have some sort of hope.

I know there's a verse about those who have believed without seeing being the more praiseworthy (sorry, my knowledge of the NT isn't brilliant) but how common are they?

You're thinking of John 20:29 when the risen Jesus said 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.'

Acoording to John, Jesus also prayed to the Father on behalf of those who would believe in him through the word of the disciples (John 17:20).

I don't know what the proportions are between Christians who claim direct or indirect experience of God and those who believe without any claim to experience. I've heard many a testimony, including those who claim to have suddenly been given the gift of 'tongues' without knowing there was such a thing (I've also attended meetings where some were obviously trying to [Roll Eyes]

); those who claim to have been 'slain in the spirit'; those who have had particular dreams and/or visions; those who like me sense the close presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit; those who sense God through art/music/architecture/nature/liturgy/ the scriptures, etc; and those who were brought up as Christians and have held firmly onto their teaching and faith despite no claim to experience.

Perhaps there's a connection with how we came to faith in the first place. Does it affect trust in God, I wonder?

I too am interested to hear the views of others on this, thank you que sais-je.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

There have been excellent threads on this in the past. I seem to recall it came out more or less equally distributed along the spectrum, at least as far as those who posted to the thread I can't recall the name of. Everything from "I sense God as clearly as I sense you" to "I have no sense of God whatsoever but I am certainly a Christian and feel no lack." And all points in between.

Does anyone remember the thread? I bet it's in Oblivion, I think it's in the last three years.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
There have been excellent threads on this in the past. .... Does anyone remember the thread? I bet it's in Oblivion, I think it's in the last three years.

I'm new around here so didn't know. I'm quite happy to disappear into Oblivion ...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Heheheheheheh...

Trouble is, there are about a 1000 pages of Oblivion, at 50 threads a page, and without a title and/or approximate date you've got a snowball's chance of finding it.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Trouble is, there are about a 1000 pages of Oblivion, at 50 threads a page, and without a title and/or approximate date you've got a snowball's chance of finding it.

I'll take it as read! Unfounded conjecture is much more fun that checking the evidence!

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Perhaps there's a connection with how we came to faith in the first place. Does it affect trust in God, I wonder?

My guess would be it's mostly to do with your subsequent experience. If you join a group/church which shares you beliefs I imagine it reinforces them. And then changing beliefs is harder if it means leaving the group (unless you have a new group to go to).

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Perhaps there's a connection with how we came to faith in the first place. Does it affect trust in God, I wonder?
My guess would be it's mostly to do with your subsequent experience. If you join a group/church which shares you beliefs I imagine it reinforces them. And then changing beliefs is harder if it means leaving the group (unless you have a new group to go to).

We're certainly influenced by subsequent experience, everything's what we get used to, and we'll often find the group we've gravitated to affirming which is why we were drawn there in the first place.

If we've come to faith via a particular route, however, it may have an adverse effect on our subsequent growth if we allow its perimeters to limit us.

For example, I know people from the high church route who are suspicious of the charismatic route, and vice versa. God may be trusted, for them, as long as God is confined to their route too.

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