quote:

---

I'd ask similar questions, of course, about myrrh-streaming icons in Orthodoxy or weeping statues in popular RC devotion.

---

I'm not impressed by them, at the same time it isn't wise to laugh at people who do when "enlightened" Westerners believe in falsehoods and frauds that do far more damage.
 

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Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :
 
Is it a Philip Pullman thing?
 

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Posted by CSL1 (# 17168) on :
 
I don't know, God can do whatever He wishes with matter, it'd be nothing for him to turn O into AU, about as difficult for him as for us to crick our little finger, but I have noticed some of the outfits making the gold dust claims are those whom I wouldn't trust to do anything much other than to pick my pocket and distort the Bible for selfish gain. The gold dust claims seem a little out of step with biblical miracles, which generally seemed more practical (food, health, protection, life), but of course, I am not the determiner of what is and is not "out of step" for the Almighty, so this is just my hipshot opinion.
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
I'm generally sceptical (I was still around charismatic evangelicalism in the 90s, but didn't see gold dust though I heard plenty about it allegedly happening elsewhere). I'd put it in a similar category as the Toronto Blessing 'manifestations' - I'm sure I've said this here before on these boards, but I was away abroad when that all arrived at my church, in 1994, and when I returned I found church meetings full of mooing and roaring and laughing and falling over and gurning and goodness knows what and I hated it all, and never could believe that - in my case - it would be anything other than autosuggestion. But. People I know and trust seemed really transformed in their daily Christian life, seemed to have a very deep experience of God, and - crucially - in many cases this depth has been sustained (and is reflected, for example, in the depth of their preaching) years later (in a way that I can't say about cynical old me) (though I have to say, as far as I know they've calmed down a lot now and dispensed with the animal noises, thank goodness). Yes they were mooing and clucking on Sunday night in church, but the rest of the week they were serving the poor and 'walking the walk' - and that's why, although remaining sceptical, I couldn't completely dismiss it. It makes no sense to me why God would do that and people would so completely dispense with their dignity when (as has been pointed out already) there are the hungry to be fed. But then Mary Magdalene's sacrifice of the perfume made no sense either, and serving the poor was the response that Judas made, and look where that got him.

It's all bonkers, I can't make head nor tail of it . It's not for me, and to be honest I'm prepared to take the risk of missing out on whatever-it-is that's going on. But seeing the effect of the seemingly pointless on people I love and trust has given me pause for thought.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
A similar position to my own view ...

But I'm wanting to hear from people who have seen or claim to have experienced this and who consider it legit'.

I'm not out to dismiss or laugh at anyone's sincerely held beliefs, but there were some folk on previous threads who claim to have seen this recently, despite their initial misgivings.

I'm interested in what they have to say. Not so I can take the mickey out of them, but because they strike me as reasonable, thinking people and I'm intrigued by how they can square that up with what they claim to have seen.

I generally think there's a rational explanation for a lot of what passes as 'miraculous' these days and a touch of the Derren Browne about some of it - but I would by no means dismiss all claims of supernatural activity etc out of hand.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Jack the Lass - I think your sense of 'disconnect' with the moo-ing and gurning and so on can easily be explained. Good people can do daft things. People walking the talk and being exemplary in other areas doesn't preclude them acting daft when under the influence of revivalist 'cues'.

This neither validates nor invalidates what happened - I'd generally say that the Toronto thing was largely down to auto-suggestion and in most instances was fairly harmless as it died down as quickly as it arose.

I was quite into it myself at the time, I stepped back though once I realised how easily this kind of behaviour could be induced given the right conditions and suggestibility.

So I don't at all doubt that the people you love and respect were capable of gullibility and credulity as well as acts of service and of genuine benefit to people. Most of what we do is mixed, either in motive or outcome.

We are all plonkers in the final analysis and we all do daft stuff - 'Who can discern his errors?'

The hope is that the good things that we do somehow outweigh the harm.

Anyway, that's another issue ...
 

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Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
Whats it all about? Wish i knew - we have had this phenomena in recent weeks. I can honestly claim to have a bit of first hand experience of this.

We are not doing anything significantly different in worship to what we have been doing for several years. The gold seemed to appear on peoples hands spontaneously mid-worship. No one was expecting it or led by anyone to expect it.

I am 100% sure we can eliminate charlatanism. I have known pretty much everyone affected for the best part of 10 years and none them could or would make this up. Even my good wife has had this and she is not easily hyped.

What does it look like? Well its not 'Gold dust' as in real gold dust. Its more like sparkling specks on your hands - its obvious if you put it under a light. As for sweeping onto the floor - not really seen enough to do that.

I would take the view that this is a by-product of God's presence but no substitute for it. The nearest biblical equivalent is the idea that Moses's face shone in Exodus and i wonder if that may have been similar. The key part is that God is there and not focus too much on the side effects.

Yes ( to respond to the other poster) this could take us to a bit of self indulgence but we are aware of this risk. We are quite an outward looking lot, anyway, and have also got stuff like a Foodbank, Street Pastors and CAP going on too, as well as Churches Together stuff which should keep us grounded. We have never thought 'inwardly' and a bit of gold dust, nice though it is, isn't going to change that.

So - i don't know exactly , but we see it as a welcome by-product, but one which just points to God being there - not to itself.

Watch this space.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Any amputees got their limbs back ?

Any eyeless their sight ? Apart from by technology.

If this is God's dandruff then it's because He's shaking His head at us.
 

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Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If this is God's dandruff then it's because He's shaking His head at us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Is it a Philip Pullman thing?

---

Personally I would much prefer it to be a Tori Amos thing, although some conservative churches might be disturbed by the connection...

...and darn it, I can't provide the appropriate link thanks to it having a bracket in the HTML. Gold Dust, classic Tori song and also the title of her upcoming orchestral album. Due out in October. She's the daughter of a church minister so God is providing advance advertising.
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Any amputees got their limbs back ?

Any eyeless their sight ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:
I am 100% sure we can eliminate charlatanism.

---

I'll take your word for it, but I don't think you can eliminate auto-suggestion.

There's a (properly sourced) account (whose details I will try to find) of a small town in the US that thought it had become the victim of some kind of astronomical phenomenon when tiny impacts were discovered in car windscreens, in increasing quantities, across the community. As I recall, people started leaving brown paper over their windscreens at night in an attempt to prevent further impacts, and so on.

It eventually transpired that the impacts were normal and not unique to the town. They were in fact to be found on just about every windscreen of the era. They were simply the usual impacts of small stones thrown up on road journeys that a couple of people in the town had started noticing. Once they had been noticed and reported, more people noticed them, and so it went.

I think that even in the absence of complete fraud (which I'm pretty sure was the case for Silvânia Machado who Gamaliel mentions in the OP) the scope for this 'gold dust' being some kind of combination of perspiration, run-of-the-mill dust and reading too many Ruth Heflin books is not to be neglected. Stop making reference to it altogether and see what happens.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
That's an interesting take, Eutychus. I don't doubt the sincerity of those involved at Beatmenace's church, but I do wonder whether mild perspiration and bits of dust/silica that are normally present on on people's hands might look a bit shiny under certain conditions - and with the kind of 'Ooh, look at this!' thing that Eutychus has mentioned, might be capable of leading people to put 2+2 together and make 5 ...

I'm not sure, Beatmenace, that when Moses's face shone or when Christ was Transfigured we are to understand these things as the presence of particular 'material' - ie. a gold coloured substance or light reflecting material of some kind. Indeed, the scriptural accounts seem to suggest that the light source was completely other-worldly. The Orthodox tradition, of course, talks of the Uncreated Light.

I have no particular beef about the well-attested story of St Seraphim of Sarov's face beaming with light (as attested by one of his disciples in a famous 19th century Russian account) - but my own faith doesn't stand or fall by stories of this kind - as I'm sure yours doesn't either.

I'd be interested to hear whether this 'phenomenon' continues. My own experience, of things like the Toronto Blessing etc is that after a while attempts are made to regularise or embed occurrences of this kind - there was the development of a kind of 'Toronto Liturgy' if you like which was pretty much guaranteed to achieve similar results every time. It built in a degree of expectation. That's where the auto-suggestibility kicked in.

I will watch this space. I'm not sure where your 'gold-dust' thing is going to lead but I'm not sure it'd be somewhere bright and sparkly.

That doesn't preclude the grounded stuff that your church is doing with food banks, churches-together groups and so on and so forth, as I said to Jack the Lass, the more 'out-there' stuff can co-exist with the grounded stuff for quite some time.

I wouldn't be surprised though, if in six months time you'd turn to someone in church and say, 'Remember that gold dust thing? We don't seem to have had it for some time ... what was all that about?'
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm further struck by talk of 'by-products' of God's presence - as if God is somehow more present at some times than others. He was omnipresent the last time I looked ...

Now, I know that more sacramentally inclined Christians believe that God is particularly present in the Eucharist in some way and I don't have a particular issue with that, although I do have an issue with some popular medieval accounts about bleeding Hosts and so on ...

It strikes me that people have an in-built yearning for some kind of 'proof' or by-product of the presence of God or the reality of the numinous. I'm not saying that there is anything 'wrong' with that, it's a natural tendency, but I suspect it does lead to watching shadows in the fire, as it were.

The other thing I'd add is that it strikes me that contemporary charismatics have somehow 'sacralised' the worship time because there's a vacuum left by a low view of traditional sacraments. So the arms in the air, let-it-all-roll time becomes the primary place of 'encounter' rather than silence (as per the Quakers) or the Eucharist (as per RCs, Orthodox and 'higher' Anglicans) - or indeed the sermon, as per various more Reformed forms of Protestant (although some Reformed traditions do seem able to combine all these aspects more equitably).
 

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Posted by Off Centre View (# 4254) on :
 
Interesting discussion - until a while ago I'd have been very sceptical about things like the appearance of gold dust, and then I saw it happen with my own eyes.

My sister works for a missionary organisation and a few years ago I went with my parents to go and visit her near a base over in the USA. One afternoon there was a house party where a group of leaders (of my sister's outreach) and their families had gathered.

Two of the leaders at the house party, a married couple, had young twins who were then just a few months old. As is usual at those sort of gatherings, people did a bit of "pass the baby around" and my mother ended up holding one of the babies for a while.

My mother and I ended up chatting on the balcony of the house, with her still holding the baby. Then, pretty much out of thin air, what looked like gold dust fell on to the child, and neither I or my mum could explain why it happened. Noone else was nearby to rig up some sort of device to fake it, nor had my mum or I any reason to do so - we were both surprised by it.

As to what happened afterwards, my mother gave the baby back (still covered in bits of what looked like gold dust) and I think the parents were used to seeing such things. I'm still not sure what to make of, except that there's no way such an event could have happened in the natural and also that maybe God takes delight in surprising us in such ways.

To this day, I still can't explain it, save that God is bigger and more capable of wonders than we could ever imagine.
 

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Posted by kankucho (# 14318) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:
Whats it all about? Wish i knew - we have had this phenomena in recent weeks. I can honestly claim to have a bit of first hand experience of this.

We are not doing anything significantly different in worship to what we have been doing for several years. The gold seemed to appear on peoples hands spontaneously mid-worship. No one was expecting it or led by anyone to expect it.

...... What does it look like? Well its not 'Gold dust' as in real gold dust. Its more like sparkling specks on your hands - its obvious if you put it under a light. As for sweeping onto the floor - not really seen enough to do that.

........

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
Yes they were mooing and clucking on Sunday night in church, but the rest of the week they were serving the poor and 'walking the walk' - and that's why, although remaining sceptical, I couldn't completely dismiss it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


The other thing I'd add is that it strikes me that contemporary charismatics have somehow 'sacralised' the worship time because there's a vacuum left by a low view of traditional sacraments. So the arms in the air, let-it-all-roll time becomes the primary place of 'encounter' rather than silence (as per the Quakers) or the Eucharist (as per RCs, Orthodox and 'higher' Anglicans) - or indeed the sermon, as per various more Reformed forms of Protestant (although some Reformed traditions do seem able to combine all these aspects more equitably).

---

quote:

---

Any amputees got their limbs back ?

Any eyeless their sight ? Apart from by technology.

---

quote:

---

I'll take your word for it, but I don't think you can eliminate auto-suggestion.

---

quote:

---

I wouldn't be surprised though, if in six months time you'd turn to someone in church and say, 'Remember that gold dust thing? We don't seem to have had it for some time ... what was all that about?'

---

I quite agree - i wouldnt want to us to be forced down a gold dust siding - or even become known for it (I may have said too much already, folks), but if you REALLY want to visit us as a 'Sign Tourist' thats fine with me - as long as you are prepared to encounter God on the way past! We will give you a warm welcome - we like guests.

That said - i will honour the gold as a gift , if it is from God then it is right to, but encountering the One that it points to is better every time.

I am a great believer in there being 'Seasons' in a church's life. This may be for a Season , or it may continue further - i'm not God ( who knows the answer to that one )- but its not the main event - God's presence is what its about. He can bring as much other stuff with Him as he wants !


 

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Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
I am a great believer in there being 'Seasons' in a church's life.

Am I the only one to find that hilarious? And sad?

Doesn't 'normal' worship, study and service suffice? Why do people need a shot in the arm?

But, as I said, it's what this gold stuff is about - whipping up the enthusiasm.
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:

I am a great believer in there being 'Seasons' in a church's life. This may be for a Season , or it may continue further - i'm not God

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Doesn't 'normal' worship, study and service suffice? Why do people need a shot in the arm?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Am I the only one to find that hilarious? And sad?

---

Hey, I'm an Anglican. We follow 'seasons'.

OK, yes, it's Christianese jargon, but actually I do believe in seasons of life, including the spiritual life. I mean, it's quite a well-accepted poetic trope, isn't it?

quote:

---

Doesn't 'normal' worship, study and service suffice? Why do people need a shot in the arm?

---

Good question. There is a strong mystical tradition in Christianity, of course (and Judaism, and Islam). But people, being people, tend to get hooked onto the spiritual phenomena of the moment, or day, or week, rather than getting ultimately excited about God Himself. And then they want their shots in the arm, and the shots in the arm, however temporary, seem more exciting and exotic than the daily walk in obedience to Christ, denying self, in the general, gritty crappiness of life. It's not as if Jesus didn't give us tools for any of this ...

I haven't experienced gold dust.

I did see some really weird behaviour during the Toronto Blessing. Animal noises,

What stands out to me is the meeting I went to at my local New Frontiers church, which was specifically showcasing the Toronto Blessing, not only because of the bonkers mayhem, which was in truth no more bonkers than many other bonkers stuff I've seen in charismatic circles, but because the NF elder who led that meeting didn't refer to the Bible once. Not once. NOT. ONCE. And now that New Frontiers is all allegedly Neo-Calvinist, I wonder what their trendy Reformed brethren would make of that. (Oooooh, bitchy! )

I have experienced plenty of joyful, uplifting, sensitively led worship without weird add-ons. But in all truth my most 'numinous' experiences have been either on my own, in prayer, or with another Christian praying for me at the time. And, unsurprisingly, I have often had those experiences on retreat.
 

---

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that most of the Bethel stuff is down to credulity rather than outright shady dealings, but it's not an outfit I'd want to get involved with in any way, shape or form.

The influence is widespread though. A new convert in our Anglican parish became all enthusiastic for a while about white feathers apparently appearing at key moments during the process of her conversion.

I'm not questioning the validity of her conversion, but I am very sceptical about the apparent angelic feathers ...

There's an apparent inability to process metaphor and 'picture-language' in some of these instances, I suspect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:
Not go those yet - but we did have a woman arrive at the weekend Ladies Breakfast in a wheelchair - who ended up pushing it out!!!

---

quote:

---

Now the real test of the healing is to see if the wheelchair is still surplus to requirements at next months

---

quote:

---

That is not where the real test should start. The real test should start by establishing why she was in the wheelchair in the first place. You lot would not pass Lourdes' criteria for examining miracles by a mile.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Off Centre View:
...
My mother and I ended up chatting on the balcony of the house, with her still holding the baby. Then, pretty much out of thin air, what looked like gold dust fell on to the child, and neither I or my mum could explain why it happened. Noone else was nearby to rig up some sort of device to fake it, nor had my mum or I any reason to do so - we were both surprised by it.

As to what happened afterwards, my mother gave the baby back (still covered in bits of what looked like gold dust) and I think the parents were used to seeing such things. I'm still not sure what to make of, except that there's no way such an event could have happened in the natural and also that maybe God takes delight in surprising us in such ways.

To this day, I still can't explain it, save that God is bigger and more capable of wonders than we could ever imagine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:
I actually agree - i was using quite loose language earlier

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:
I am 100% sure we can eliminate charlatanism.

---

I'll take your word for it, but I don't think you can eliminate auto-suggestion...I think that even in the absence of complete fraud ...the scope for this 'gold dust' being some kind of combination of perspiration, run-of-the-mill dust and reading too many Ruth Heflin books is not to be neglected. Stop making reference to it altogether and see what happens.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurelin:
What stands out to me is the meeting I went to at my local New Frontiers church...because the NF elder who led that meeting didn't refer to the Bible once. Not once. NOT. ONCE.

---

You expect genuine concern for what God says in the Bible in a NF church? Little credulous there, eh? Hey, if they're not mentioning the Bible, at least they're not distorting it. That's about all I ever experienced in my former (thankfully) NF church.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Hush, stay on topic
 

---

Posted by CSL1 (# 17168) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Now the real test of the healing is to see if the wheelchair is still surplus to requirements at next months

---

That is not where the real test should start. The real test should start by establishing why she was in the wheelchair in the first place. You lot would not pass Lourdes' criteria for examining miracles by a mile.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Hush, stay on topic

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CSL1:
Little credulous there, eh?

---

I'm neither credulous nor stupid. And NFI is hardly unique in being a church that has screwed people up (sadly). I've never been part of their constituency, nor would I ever be. But their constituency did give us Stuart Townend, so, you know ... some of them must be going to heaven.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aslan lives despite our chaos. In our chaos.

He does NOT heal amputees, Down's syndrome, aging, bipolarity, you name it.

He does NOT start Holy Fires in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

He doesn't rain gold dust.

Twenty years ago He didn't give people gold fillings.

He is far above such parlour tricks.

He's with us in our decay, our loss, our weakness, keeps us from committing suicide today with a word from another who doesn't know what it was.

And He doesn't NOT answer our prayers.

---

*like*
 

---

Posted by windsofchange (# 13000) on :
 
This "gold dust" may actually be something real and material, but frankly, that makes me more skeptical that it's NOT from God and is being faked. (They sell that sparkly stuff by the pound at craft shops; how hard would it be for one or two people to stand near a fan or an air vent and quietly let a handful loose?)

It could be fakery, or maybe gullibility, or a combination of the two.

Reminds me of when I was in high school and got involved in a Charismatic prayer group. The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional), was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - a bright blue ribbon floating over our heads; a rainbow; a "cloud of glory" (whatever that might have been).

And, wanting to please her (because she was a teacher and SO COOL!), we would always smile and agree that we saw it too! And try very, very hard to believe it.

The Emperor's new clothes had nothing on the Charismatic Prayer Group Leader's newest miracle. But they had about the same amount of substance.
 

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Posted by windsofchange (# 13000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by windsofchange :
... The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional) teacher , was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - ...

---

(sorry, lost my window of time to make the above edit!! )

(Also wanted to add: I have a cousin who is a very prominent speaker in the evangelical world (here in the U.S.) and is constantly proclaiming "miracles" like this. Knowing the kinds of stunts he pulled when we were growing up makes me even more certain that, at least at the events he attends, they're probably faked. )

[ 17. July 2012, 15:08: Message edited by: windsofchange ]
 

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Posted by CSL1 (# 17168) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurelin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CSL1:
Little credulous there, eh?

---

I'm neither credulous nor stupid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CSL1:
I was just using the opportunity to gratuitously slam NF, I apologize for putting you in the crossfire.

---

No worries. I'm not a fan of theirs.

I'm mildly intrigued by this gold dust thing now, but not because I want to see it or experience it, just because I've heard about it now and then and I find it odd.

Although not as unpleasant as all that barking under the Toronto Blessing.

Truth be told though, I am really tired of religious silliness, not least the charismatic variety. Never mind the gold dust and the what-not, I want the simplicity of the gospel and the power of the Spirit. More pure, clear, transparent water of the Holy Spirit ...

The church in the developing world does seem to experience more of the direct power of the Spirit. Maybe because their worldview is less cluttered by materialism and all our other many 'isms'.
 

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Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aslan lives despite our chaos. In our chaos.

He does NOT heal amputees, Down's syndrome, aging, bipolarity, you name it.

He does NOT start Holy Fires in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

He doesn't rain gold dust.

Twenty years ago He didn't give people gold fillings.

He is far above such parlour tricks.

He's with us in our decay, our loss, our weakness, keeps us from committing suicide today with a word from another who doesn't know what it was.

And He doesn't NOT answer our prayers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
There's a (properly sourced) account (whose details I will try to find) of a small town in the US that thought it had become the victim of some kind of astronomical phenomenon when tiny impacts were discovered in car windscreens, in increasing quantities, across the community.

---

Well the town was hardly small (Seattle), but I've found the book I read it in and from there got a reference. It's apparently a famous example of a collective delusion:

The Seattle Windshield Pitting Epidemic (longer but rather better summary here; sociology journal article here - the latter requires registration or payment to read in full).
 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
God may work in that way .... but if he does, what exactly is he saying by putting gold dust on people's hands or in their hair? That he wants to bless us (as many prophecies seem to say)? Why us, why now?

I'd put myself in the charismatic camp, allied to a healthy dose of scepticism along the lines of "all that glitters is not gold." I'm firmly in the con evo camp. Yet .....

... in 35 years in various churches, I've heard lots of claims about the presence and power of God: I speak in tongues: I've prayed for people to be healed - some have been (but it's not down to me or my prayer as such), some haven't - at least not visibly so. Most say that they feel more at peace as we have brought all the circumstances to God. I've seen apparent impossibilities happen and don't doubt that God can turn our expectations upside down. I believe that God is a God of miracles.

Sadly, my experience also finds that there is as much hype within the church as outside it. Ministers and celebrity preachers are bigged up; everyday events assume a significance way beyond their actual facts and impact. Healings - generally organic or unseen ones (eg leg lengthening are routinely claimed: what is God saying through that one?) - and the church has become subject to the hype of the latest snake oil salesman.

I'm not disillusioned with the church at all - i still believe and I still see a God of power working in people's lives - but I also see Christians who accept stuff at face value that doesn't bear testing (this is biblical) or close scrutiny.

Gold dust? Very 1996. The next thing after Toronto and the forerunner of Pensacola. New monasticism? Yes - then comes emerging church. Oh yes, and somewhere along the line Todd Bennett. Well, a few people who I love and trust and who I respect for their thinking thought Todd was "it" - it took 6 months to reveal him as a liar and adulterer, and the fad blew out.

The fads come round quicker these days and they are often repeat items from a few years back. We just don't test this stuff anymore nor do we ask the real question: it's not what or how -- always think "why" is God doing this? What is he pointing to?

The values the church hads adopted are indistinguishable from those of the world around. We are as open to advertising and marketing as anyone and we just aren't content with the everyday and sacrificial anymore. Gold dust manifestations have the same bleat of the me, me me narcissism of the secular world.

The real miracles come on our church's doorstep: people welcomed; the mentally ill supported; prostitutes prayed for: a sick man of 25, dying, from a drug reaction, healed; others coping with loss through God's compassion shared by others. Children off the streets and in a club, a place of safety, every week.

Not spectacular when compared to glory clouds or gold dust - but I know which one is closest to God's heart even if we do mess it up from time to time.

[ 17. July 2012, 19:44: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
 

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Posted by CSL1 (# 17168) on :
 
That's as well as I've heard it put, Exclamation Mark.
 

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Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :
 
Exclamation Mark:
 

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Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 

quote:

---

The real miracles come on our church's doorstep: people welcomed; the mentally ill supported; prostitutes prayed for: a sick man of 25, dying, from a drug reaction, healed; others coping with loss through God's compassion shared by others. Children off the streets and in a club, a place of safety, every week.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by beatmenace:
[QUOTE] Why spontaneously in worship? And why now and not in the 15 years or so previously? My best idea is that its a calling card......

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Originally posted by beatmenace:
...and by now someone would have squarked.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

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Originally posted by beatmenace:
[QUOTE] Why spontaneously in worship? And why now and not in the 15 years or so previously? My best idea is that its a calling card......

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Of course you can have both but do we really need such a sign? Is that how God wants to talk to us with gold when money has becoem so devalued in a moral and ethical sense?

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I think some comments on this thread are being distracted by the dual meaning of "gold." The metal named "gold" has monetary value to us earthlings in this life. But the word "gold" also names a color shining and beautiful independent of any financial value of the metal named gold; and that's the sense I get from those who say they've see it -- the beauty is what they are seeing, not a dollar value.

What is "gold dust" for? I used to wonder what all those wildflowers growing for centuries in places where no man (or beast) ever saw or admired them, now I just think God enjoys beauty. If the "gold dust" stories are real, perhaps that's what it's about, God enjoying the beauty of people who see what they think is gold dust and delight in the beauty WITHOUT thinking "Maybe I can gather this up and make some money off it." For once people are being non-materialistic, that's beautiful!

Skeptics chatter about potential monetary value of the gold if it's real; who cares? Alabaster box and all that. God isn't always financially pragmatic. Those looking to use the expensive oil for it's financial value were the ones chided.

Not saying "believe all you hear," just saying objections along monetary lines about the supposed practical material value of the "gold dust" as if the focus of the meeting should change from God to gathering up "gold dust" to sell, are not relevant.

Are some stories fake? I wouldn't be surprised, I doubt the ones where ONLY the speaker is affected. But I've heard a few reports from friends who don't usually make things up, who saw it at meetings where there were no appeals for donations, or where any "gold dust" appeared late in the meeting, long after the routine collection had been received.
 

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Posted by windsofchange (# 13000) on :
 
Just out of curiosity, has anyone either tasted this stuff, or rubbed their eyes after touching it?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm broadly where ExclamationMark, NightOwl2 and Eutychus are at on this one - and CSL1 too, although I've not had as many bad experiences as he has.

I'm also very sceptical about the idea of 'seasons' in church life beyond the ones that happen as a result of moving buildings or changing direction strategically etc. Like Laurelin, I would rather follow the set liturgical seasons - and build the rhythm of my spiritual life around that. I find that far more personally fulfilling than all the talk of 'seasons' that we used to get back in the 'new church' restorationists days ...

We were always 'entering a time of ...' or expecting a 'new thing ...' or 'on the verge of a breakthrough ...' yadda yadda yadda ... all things that Eutychus could probably recite backwards along with me (despite being in a different 'network').

It all makes for a very vertiginous and see-sawing , roller-coaster ride faith.

Of course, as Orfeo says, there are times when we need refreshment or a shot-in-the-arm. That's what conferences/retreat centres and so on can provide, but I suggest that we need to be careful how we use all of these things - they can become ends in themselves.

I'm certainly not saying that people in Beatmenace's congregation are faking things still less that there's a diamond-ringed evangelist in a Bentley out the back - this is Whitley Bay not Whoop-it-Upsville, Alabama ...

But I wouldn't be surprised, as Eutychus suggests, that this is some kind of collective illusion/misapprehension of what might turn out to be otherwise perfectly natural events - lights and sweat come to mind - as CSL1 has suggested.

Of course, 'Aslan is not safe' and God can do some pretty strange things ...

As for the thing about why it only happens in the middle worship services, I suggest that this may be because levels of humidity have had time to rise to a level where glittery sweat may occur or where levels of credulity have risen.

I don't care what anyone says, but there is almost inevitably a kind of swoozy-woozy atmosphere about half or two-thirds of the way through any contemporary 'worship-set' even if the praise band isn't trying to hype things up necessarily. It's the way the songs work. You could achieve similar effects by singing 'Mull of Kintyre' over and over again.

Of course, one could say the same about a 'High Mass' with the sense of drama heightened by smoke and bells. But generally in a context like that, people are aware of the artifice and aren't being 'conned' ...

I'm not saying that your lot are being deliberately mislead or messed with - but from what you've posted Beatmenace, it seems axiomatic to me that your church belongs to a milieu where it is expecting to see 'new things' and seasons of this that and the other and tangible, 'calling-card' evidence of God's presence - consequently that will act as a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' to some extent.

I know this is out of context, but didn't Jesus say somewhere about it not being for us to suss out 'times or seasons that the Father has determined by his own authority?'



I'm less 'reformed' than I used to be but I'm with Chris Stiles on the church's business being to preach the word and celebrate the sacraments and allow God to determine the rest.
 

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Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
I don't get the impression that the 'gold dust' has anything to do with gold in a literal sense, i.e. the 'health, wealth and prosperity' nonsense. Perhaps some would see the gold dust more as a manifestation of the Shekinah, the presence of God in a shining cloud.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
We were always 'entering a time of ...' or expecting a 'new thing ...' or 'on the verge of a breakthrough ...' yadda yadda yadda ...

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Oh boy, yes.

'Yadda yadda yadda' sums it up perfectly.

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I don't care what anyone says, but there is almost inevitably a kind of swoozy-woozy atmosphere about half or two-thirds of the way through any contemporary 'worship-set' even if the praise band isn't trying to hype things up necessarily. It's the way the songs work. You could achieve similar effects by singing 'Mull of Kintyre' over and over again.

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Of course, one could say the same about a 'High Mass' with the sense of drama heightened by smoke and bells. But generally in a context like that, people are aware of the artifice and aren't being 'conned' ...

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It's all there - just look at the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3. Nothing new under the sun.

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Spooky Mark strikes again.

Thats the teaching series we have been doing for the last 8 Sundays (Podcasts are available ).

Now that is an impressive word Mr Mark (although i may just being credulous).
 

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Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 

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quote:
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It's all there - just look at the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3. Nothing new under the sun.
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Spooky Mark strikes again.

Thats the teaching series we have been doing for the last 8 Sundays (Podcasts are available ).

Now that is an impressive word Mr Mark (although i may just being credulous).

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Either that or you've been checking our website
 

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Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
Gamaliel,

You reminded me of this - in a good way.

http://www.charismaministries.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/pk1.jpg
 

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Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
I use think i use 'seasons' in a slightly different way to the way Gameliel does - i dont mean to call whizzy fads a 'season', whatever their value - i am thinking of something much more long term - seasons can take years on my planet....

In fact i thought i had invented the term in relation to church life - from what you say in your post it sounds like someone got there before me. Nothing new under the Sun then.

Back in the 90's i was an Anglican so maybe i have ingested this one subconciously.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

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Originally posted by windsofchange:
Reminds me of when I was in high school and got involved in a Charismatic prayer group. The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional), was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - a bright blue ribbon floating over our heads; a rainbow; a "cloud of glory" (whatever that might have been).

And, wanting to please her (because she was a teacher and SO COOL!), we would always smile and agree that we saw it too! And try very, very hard to believe it.

The Emperor's new clothes had nothing on the Charismatic Prayer Group Leader's newest miracle. But they had about the same amount of substance.

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This sounds rather like a visual migraine. Or just possibly synesthesia, though mine isn't so well-defined. She may have been deluded herself.

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Synesthesia sounds worthy of a thread in itself - so at risk of lurching way off topic:

I had heard Synesthesia accociates colours with Letters, Numbers and Musical notes. In that, it sounds quite quantifiable. Are there more abstract aspects which would sound more like the above?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't have a problem with the way you are using 'seasons' in the sense that it might apply as follows (to give a fictitious example):

- From 1996 to 1999 we had a sustained season of evangelism, marked by the appointment of a youth-worker who led evangelistic youth-work in our area, at the same time we held several sustained programmes of evangelism which led to the conversion of a number of individuals. Some families also joined the church and we had several young people volunteering to undertake mission/development work abroad.

- From 2003 to 2005 we had a season of consolidation following a move from our hired hall into our own building ...

- From April 2007 to November 2007 we had a season of re-evaluation as we examined our core principles and decided on the direction we felt we would like to take as a church ...

If that's what you're referring to, then fine.

But if you're saying that there's somehow been a change in the 'spiritual atmosphere' or the 'heavenlies' or what-have-you and that this is marked by greater fervour, a sense of God's presence in the meetings, various tokens or 'calling-cards' ... that's when I begin to feel uncomfortable ...
 

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Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
St Hildegard of Bingen, who had extraordinary visions, suffered from migraines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

I'm now wondering whether she also had synesthesia.

(I just found out through Google that on 7 October 2012, the Pope is going to declare her to be the 35th Doctor of the Church. I'm not a Catholic, but I like Hildegard, and that's very cool. )

Then there's Joan of Arc, another female visionary (who this time came a cropper!)

This has got me thinking. God could speak through a person with synesthesia, couldn't He?

The mind is a strange and wonderful thing. And I do believe that God speaks.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
no prophet, that's very good of you to say so.

And that's the CRUX isn't it ? Answered prayer. Including unasked prayer.

God answers ALL of our prayers in the positive in and through His Son, by the Spirit.

We are to discuss EVERY concern with Him. And He can't NOT respond.

Let's get REALLY real here. I have intrusive thinking from various traumata including and especially self-inflicted ones from adolescence 45 years ago. There are more ways of self-harming than cutting oneself. When it's bad, it's very very bad indeed. Along with chronic pain, underachievement, marriage and family breakdown, insecurity, early geriatrics (trapped sciatic, cervical/thoracic nerves, IBS, diabetes), etc, etc this constributes to 'mild' depression, especially on waking on weekdays.

And God is with me in this. Suffers with me. I praise Him for His tender mercies. For all respite. Barely. Barely coherently. I read Brian McLaren and work with desperate, broken, socially irredeemable poor, mentally ill, addicted, substance abusing people a few hours a week and experience disconnection AND affirmation at the same time.

NONE of them will make it in this life.

Neither will I: when I do get cancer (skin, prostate, bowel, lung, stomach), if I live long enough with my damaged faculties. Of which I will NOT be healed. As I won't be of dementia, stroke, heart disease, liver and renal failure.

Prayer that does not start and end with thanks and praise IN all this - when it could - cannot be 'rewarded'.

My children will continue to drain my savings which are to pay of my ex-wife's mortgage, I will die in the next 20 years at most (hopefully!) in mentally and physically crippled poverty.

So ? All we can do is invoke Him, Father, Son and Holy Ghost ALL the time, in the Cloud of Unknowing.

Is rejoice. In our grimness Our light affliction.

All will be well and therefore all IS well.

[ 18. July 2012, 12:56: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

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Originally posted by beatmenace:

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It's all there - just look at the 7 churches of Revelation 2 & 3. Nothing new under the sun.

Spooky Mark strikes again.

Thats the teaching series we have been doing for the last 8 Sundays (Podcasts are available ).

Now that is an impressive word Mr Mark (although i may just being credulous).

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Either that or you've been checking our website

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...almost inevitably a kind of swoozy-woozy atmosphere about half or two-thirds of the way through any contemporary 'worship-set' even if the praise band isn't trying to hype things up necessarily. It's the way the songs work. You could achieve similar effects by singing 'Mull of Kintyre' over and over again.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Agreed.

Not all use of repetition can be harmful, but we do have to bear the warnings about 'vain repetitions' in mind ... it's funny though, how some of the worst exponents of the practice criticise more liturgical traditions for this when babbling away themselves 19 to the dozen ...

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I don't have a problem with the way you are using 'seasons' in the sense that it might apply as follows (to give a fictitious example):

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Unless I missed it, no-one seems to have drawn attention to the bible reference to gold dust in worship:

"And he took the (golden) calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it" (Exodus 32:20)

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Altered states of consciousness are not biblically normative at all, easily invoked and are nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

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Originally posted by windsofchange:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone either tasted this stuff, or rubbed their eyes after touching it?

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Originally posted by catthefat:
I can't see bhow it's "probably alright" to believe something that is a lie. Do lies ever lead to the truth?

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

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Originally posted by windsofchange:
Reminds me of when I was in high school and got involved in a Charismatic prayer group. The leader, a very charismatic (small c intentional), was always telling us about the wonderful things she was seeing as we prayed - a bright blue ribbon floating over our heads; a rainbow; a "cloud of glory" (whatever that might have been).

And, wanting to please her (because she was a teacher and SO COOL!), we would always smile and agree that we saw it too! And try very, very hard to believe it.

The Emperor's new clothes had nothing on the Charismatic Prayer Group Leader's newest miracle. But they had about the same amount of substance.

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This sounds rather like a visual migraine. Or just possibly synesthesia, though mine isn't so well-defined. She may have been deluded herself.

Just sayin'.

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Hmm, I had migraines too (growing up; they decreased as I got older, one of nicer things about aging ); but never saw anything really cool like that. Just auras and flashing dots.
 

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Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :
 

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
CSL1 : "I caused three legs to grow out this week!" LOL! Well sol. In our desperate 'charismatic evangelical' fellowship of 750 people that covers the best that the healing on the streets team has claimed from the congregation in two years. No wonder the vicar doesn't ask any more.

Is anybody ever prayed for in healing prayer sessions on how to endure with cancer or bipolarity or dementia or dropsy or teenagers UNTIL they are healed ?

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Yes - very much so. It's a journey we walk with people, even if it ends in death.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I can't speak to the migraines from experience, only from verbal and artistic description of the auras. But as for synesthesia, what caught my attention was the fact that she wasn't describing (I think) any terribly well-defined item such as an angel or a trumpet or something, her claims as described are of shapes and colors--a blue ribbon, a cloud of glory. And that is similar to how my colored hearing operates. I don't see defined items such as a hairbrush or a Chihuahua, I see cones and moving ribbons and colored slashes of light. Sometimes o-rings and surfaces of various textures and directions.

I've always had colored letters and numbers. But I did not become aware of my colored hearing until about six years ago, (and just realized I have some colored/shaped TASTE last week, yikes--strong garlic in tomato soup is a very clear smooth yellow cylinder if you were wondering, laid right across the middle of the bowl.)

I tell you all that because I imagine she might have had synesthesia all her life but only recently had it move to the forefront of her attention, like my hearing and taste forms. In which case she might very well have mistaken it for something supernatural. Having been aware of it from an early age, I knew perfectly well it meant I was just a neurological weirdo.
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

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Originally posted by Laurelin:
The church in the developing world does seem to experience more of the direct power of the Spirit. Maybe because their worldview is less cluttered by materialism and all our other many 'isms'.

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Yep, instead it's cluttered by all their other many 'isms' instead. I think the desire to control the transcendent and have it on tap is pretty universal.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 

 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Yes. And there's no particular merit if you aren't materialist because you haven't (yet) got the material to be -istic about, yet.

Wait till they get here and go off the deep end. (Been dealing with the fall-out of that crap for a couple decades now)
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 

 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
St Stevie sums it up:

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Rock on- gold dust woman
Take your silver spoon
And dig your grave

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AtB, Pyx_e.

p.s I want Martin's babies, I love him so much.
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Pyx_e: That song became an earworm for me, reading the OP.

On a more serious note: I haven't read all the comments here so I don't know if anyone else has made the same point, but...when I think of Jesus' miracles, all of them -- even the initial miracle at the Cana wedding party -- served the needs of others at the moment; they were about helping people. He also didn't seem to be much in the mood to deal with curiosity seekers looking for him to produce magick tricks to prove his connection to God -- see his comments about a wicked and adulterous generation seeking signs and wonders.

How does the phenomenon of "gold dust" (has anyone actually captured any of the stuff?) stack up to Jesus' example of effecting God's saving power on behalf of those around him?
 

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Posted by CSL1 (# 17168) on :
 

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Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Pyx_e: That song became an earworm for me, reading the OP.

On a more serious note: I haven't read all the comments here so I don't know if anyone else has made the same point, but...when I think of Jesus' miracles, all of them -- even the initial miracle at the Cana wedding party -- served the needs of others at the moment; they were about helping people. He also didn't seem to be much in the mood to deal with curiosity seekers looking for him to produce magick tricks to prove his connection to God -- see his comments about a wicked and adulterous generation seeking signs and wonders.

How does the phenomenon of "gold dust" (has anyone actually captured any of the stuff?) stack up to Jesus' example of effecting God's saving power on behalf of those around him?

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Originally posted by Komensky:
The gold dust phenomenon can be explained, to some degree, like many similar things ('gold teeth', jewels appearing, etc.). There is not one single case that I have seen verified of 'gold' dust. There was a case a few years ago (was it in Canada?) where someone collected some of the stuff and it was plastic. Believers in the stuff of course argued that, perhaps, God, in his wisdom, *chose* to send them plastic. And so on. I don't believe that all of these things are faked, but many are.

So what about those that are not deliberately staged? People certainly see 'something', but it is almost certainly not gold dust because if was, someone would have proven it by now. I've met people who say that they've seen it happen, falling from hands, but I've also met people who claim they've seen a UFO. I'm sure they saw something, but not a spaceship from another planet.

There is a very interesting pattern and this is that the wackier the phenomenon, the wackier the theology. Bethel in California is a case in point.

K.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
MC. They were deluded. Brainwashed. By themselves. NO other explanation is faithfully necessary. There were NO gold teeth.

Just like no amputee EVER gets their limb(s) back.

Not yet.

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True.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, it's the 'not yet' thing that narks me about a lot of this stuff. As if by having 'gold dust' and so on you somehow make it more likely that the real big miracles are going to take place.

Sure, in the OT you see David tackling 'first the lion, then the bear and then Goliath' but the first miracle Jesus did was pretty spectacular. He didn't start off with a couple of bottles of Evian and turn them into Beaujolais, he went straight into the deep end ...

Nah, none of this stuff 'computes'. It's all a bit of a distraction.
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
This - very old - article Andrew Walker (posted on the Ship) may be apposite here:

http://old.shipoffools.com/Cargo/Features99/Features/TorontoGoldWalker.html
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It's old but still stands the test of time. I think he's struck gold - or is on the money ...


 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
The questions don't change

1. Why would God want to give people gold teeth?

2. What evidence is there (independantly verifiable) that this has happened?

3. How do you deal with those who misrepresent such things that deflect us away from what God is doing? How have such been dealt with in the past?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
God is doing what he has always been doing - being God.

How I'd deal with it is to allow the people involved with sort of thing to come to a fuller, and I believe better, understanding by - as they appear to be doing in the case we've been discussing - keeping up relationships with other outfits, using their brains and waiting to see what happens.

As Eutychus, and Andrew Walker, both suggest, fads pass in time. This one crops up every now and then and has done so in various parts of the world in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. Undoubtedly it will happen again. Eventually it will run its course.
 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Eventually it will run its course.

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Agree with you most of the way but if we adopt too much of a "wait and see approach," how will we justify to God and/or ourselves the (often irreparable) damage caused to people in the meantime?

Are we really happy to allow people to become disillusioned through this stuff or are we ready to come out and say it's wrong, if it obviously is?
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Of course there are no verified cases, this is entirely the point. The few cases when someone offered their gold filling as proof where either proved to be done by a dentist or they mysteriously turned back to old-fashioned, boring old fillings. The same things goes for the 'gold dust'. Either they tell they world that, for some reason, no one was able to collect any ('it was too small' or 'that wasn't really on our minds', which was the Bethel line), or when samples are collected they turn out to be some kind of plastic.

If any of this BS had actually happened by a miracle, the humans involved would be keen to prove that they weren't deluded. And so despite the hundreds if not thousands of these stories of feathers, gold teeth, gold dust, etc., not one has been demonstrated to be genuine. It beggars belief that any right-thinking person continues to believe these stories. But there you have it!

One problem (among others) with the whole WoF (WtF?) and Signs and Wonders lot is that once they start these yarns they have to keep going. Occasionally they get caught telling outright porkies (like the Bethel group who claimed to have raised people from the dead) and then later apologised. One of the leaders at Bethel told the congregation with a straight face that several members of their you group walked on water—to cheers and whoops from the crowd (I mean congregation).

There is some loon (soon to be on the charismatic preaching circuit, no doubt) in Wales now, along the same lines, that claims that Christians should be able to breathe underwater.

K.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I have no problem with telling people that things are wrong when they actually are, EE.

In my experience, though, being 'against' someone's sincerely held view can be counter-productive and only serves to drive them into a corner or to adopt a more entrenched position.

Hey ... that doesn't stop me posting here, though, does it?

Seriously, I know that if I kept challenging our local charismatic evangelical vicar over putative words and so-called signs-and-wonders he'd very quickly stop listening to me over anything else I might say. I have challenged him on such things (and he's pretty mild compared to the Bethel crowd) and it didn't get me very far.

Ultimately, we can warn and speak as we find but people have to learn from their own mistakes.

If I tell him that I've had over 30 years experience of the charismatic scene and can see where this sort of thing leads he just shrugs that off and says that although he's younger than me he grew up in a charismatic household (charismatic vicar Dad) and that this is almost as much experience as I've had and that my views have been skewed by experience of those nasty heavy-shepherding restorationists and not the lovely, cuddly New Wine Anglicans ...
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

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Originally posted by Komensky:
The same things goes for the 'gold dust'. Either they tell they world that, for some reason, no one was able to collect any ('it was too small' or 'that wasn't really on our minds', which was the Bethel line), or when samples are collected they turn out to be some kind of plastic.

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm not taking sides on Bethel's claims, just saying the reported claimed reaction is what I would expect if it were real. (Which doesn't answer the question of whether it's real or just a well faked reaction.)

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I have no problem with telling people that things are wrong when they actually are, EE.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I'm no fan of the universal application of the Gamaliel principle as you can gather - wait and see works in some cases but not in all. It seems to have such a specific term of reference in Acts that I can't see that it is meant to be a universal maxim for dealing with spiritual matters.

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