|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Bishop of Coventry
|
Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
|
Posted
The London bookmakers and The Times seem to agree: the Right Rev Christopher Cocksworth, Bishop of Coventry, is likely to be nominated as the next Archbishop of Canterbury.
Are there those on the Ship who are able to tell us something about him, from personal experience, and can do so discreetly?
I know nothing about him apart from his resume, and have nothing against him apart from his somewhat unfortunate choice of last name.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
|
Posted
Pretty mainstream Open Evangelical. Therefore, a good choice IMHO.
--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
Very wet and without a backbone. I do hope this prediction is wrong.
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
Why is that the Evo contenders always tend to be of a very marked churchmanship, whereas this is not true for their more high church counterparts. I don't know +Coventry personally, but he seems to be markedly Evangelical and was even the Principal of an Evangelical theological college. ++Carey was also very markedly evangelical, but it could hardly be said that ++Rowan or ++Runcie (although the latter was easier to pigeonhole as 'liberal Catholic'). Indeed, I don't think there's ever been a markedly Anglo-Catholic ABC (David Hope came closest, although he is still quite a moderate A-C). These days, it seems to fluctuate between MotR and Evangelical.
I think +Londin. would make an excellent ABC, but the CofE currently idolizes youth, and anyone over 60 tends not to be taken seriously — never mind that men in their seventies are often called by our coreligionists in Rome and the Eastern Churches.
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Why is that the Evo contenders always tend to be of a very marked churchmanship, whereas this is not true for their more high church counterparts. I don't know +Coventry personally, but he seems to be markedly Evangelical and was even the Principal of an Evangelical theological college. ++Carey was also very markedly evangelical, but it could hardly be said that ++Rowan or ++Runcie (although the latter was easier to pigeonhole as 'liberal Catholic'). Indeed, I don't think there's ever been a markedly Anglo-Catholic ABC (David Hope came closest, although he is still quite a moderate A-C). These days, it seems to fluctuate between MotR and Evangelical.
I think +Londin. would make an excellent ABC, but the CofE currently idolizes youth, and anyone over 60 tends not to be taken seriously — never mind that men in their seventies are often called by our coreligionists in Rome and the Eastern Churches.
I think the Bishop of London would make an awful Archbishop of Canterbury. Apart from anything else, it would be quite absurd to have an Archbishop who thought that a significant chunk of his clergy weren't really priests. I would suggest the appearance of bias is simply an artifact of your own churchmanship, which is well out on the (rather lacy!) fringe even of Anglo-Catholicism. I think Archbishop Rowan's Catholicism is pretty clear. Yes he's liberal, but so is the Church of England. His liturgical practice, what I've seen of it, is fairly high.
Obviously I'd like another Anglo-Catholic, but we do have to accept that there are evangelicals in the church too. Just so long as it's not another lunatic like Lord Carey.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Don't know about the current inwardness, but I know Bishop Graham James has been thought to be one of the front runners.
I think he's a pretty safe pair of hands and maybe that's an important consideration at present. I've met him, like him a lot. If, against the current story, he does get the job then I reckon Canterbury's gain would be Norwich's loss.
So far as Bishop Christopher is concerned, I only know what I've read. Included in which is the fact that he's David Pytches' son-in-law. I'm sure that gives some folks pause for thought, given that David founded the charo-evangelical New Wine movement (sometimes known as Anglo-Wimberism). But that hardly defines him. Anyway, he'd better be his own man.
Whoever gets this job, and regardless of their particular colour in the Anglican rainbow, they sure will need our prayers. It looks even more of a "poisoned chalice" than when Rowan took over. Hope I'm wrong about that.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
|
Posted
+Christopher, robed and mitred, attended Benediction at the high altar of Coventry Cathedral at the conclusion of the 2008 AffCath pilgrimage. He is known for an interest in liturgy and played a large part in the development of Common Worship.
--------------------
The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Barnabas62 wrote: quote:
Whoever gets this job, and regardless of their particular colour in the Anglican rainbow, they sure will need our prayers. It looks even more of a "poisoned chalice" than when Rowan took over. Hope I'm wrong about that.
I would like to think you are wrong, B62. But I'm afraid you are probably right.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
|
Posted
My understanding is that there was a big fuss after he arrived in Coventry as he appeared to be avoiding ordaining women as priests. He would preside at their deaconing but somehow was never available to ordain them as priests. The suffragen did that.
I think he has now ordained women as priests following some full and frank discussions with his women clergy.
He made it public that he signed the petition against the proposed legislation for same sex marriage, and encouraged those who shared his view to sign the petition.
I doubt if he will be as accommodating as Rowan Williams has been to those who disagree with his views and I suspect he will be very keen to be friends with the Forward in Faith brigade.
--------------------
The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It looks even more of a "poisoned chalice" than when Rowan took over. Hope I'm wrong about that.
It is a chalice of hemlock and double cyanide on the rocks with a chaser of strychnine and an extra side order of viper venom. On steroids. I can't imagine who in their right mind wouldn't feign madness just to avoid nomination.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It looks even more of a "poisoned chalice" than when Rowan took over. Hope I'm wrong about that.
It is a chalice of hemlock and double cyanide on the rocks with a chaser of strychnine and an extra side order of viper venom. On steroids. I can't imagine who in their right mind wouldn't feign madness just to avoid nomination.
You can't? Here are three:
1) The Archbishop of York
2) The Bishop of Coventry
3) The Bishop of London
I assume they are all in their right minds. They're senior bishops, after all.
[ 05. August 2012, 16:14: Message edited by: Amos ]
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It looks even more of a "poisoned chalice" than when Rowan took over. Hope I'm wrong about that.
It is a chalice of hemlock and double cyanide on the rocks with a chaser of strychnine and an extra side order of viper venom. On steroids. I can't imagine who in their right mind wouldn't feign madness just to avoid nomination.
You can't? Here are three:
1) The Archbishop of York
2) The Bishop of Coventry
3) The Bishop of London
I assume they are all in their right minds. They're senior bishops, after all.
I fail to see how that follows. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
Come, come, Arethosemyfeet. Even Balaam's ass was a messenger of the Lord.
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Don't know about the current inwardness, but I know Bishop Graham James has been thought to be one of the front runners.
I think he's a pretty safe pair of hands and maybe that's an important consideration at present. I've met him, like him a lot. If, against the current story, he does get the job then I reckon Canterbury's gain would be Norwich's loss.
I share this hope. I knew him reasonably well some time ago, and although we personally had some disagreements, I would be very happy to see him as ABC.
I believe that he has said that he doesn't want the job, which, to my mind, further emphasises his suitability.
--------------------
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
|
Posted
We recently celebrated the 50th anniversary of the consecration of the new Coventry Cathedral. As part of the celebration the cross of nails was sent on a pilgrimage from church to church around the diocese, accompanied by folks from the churches and both Bishop Christopher and Bishop John (Warwick).
The procession stopped off at a local pub for a handover from one parish to another. Bishop Christopher stopped for lunch and for a prayer of blessing over the pub. He went out to the front stood on a table and gave a brief but effective explaination of the pilgrimage and offered up the prayer of blessing. And the regulars, (who in the landlady's words aren't the most religious of people), bowed their heads and joined in the Amen at the end.
All of which is a longwinded way of saying that he relates well to people.
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Very wet and without a backbone. I do hope this prediction is wrong.
I wouldn't agree, he may have some dodgy advisors but IMO it'd be a loss to Coventry if he got the ABC job.
--------------------
"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
Posts: 199 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Even Balaam's ass was a messenger of the Lord.
But not in its right mind by any stretch of the imagination.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Come, come, Arethosemyfeet. Even Balaam's ass was a messenger of the Lord.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Just so long as it's not another lunatic like Lord Carey.
You might not like his theology or politics but he is not any sort of "lunatic" and there's no need for the silly name calling
Though I suspect its not his theology or politics but his firm support for the ordination of women which made him so unpopular at the extreme heights of Anglo-Catholicism - maybe the same goes for Rowan as well, I've never quite worked out why so many of them, both theological liberals and theological conservatives, seem to hate him so - or maybe hatred of archbishops is a natural consequence of their position, whoever the bishops might be.
And anyway, if you lined up all the Anglicans in the world one one long spectrum of churchmanship from the snake's belly to the top of the candle, Carey would be nearer the centre on the low-church side, probably a lot nearer the centre, than Rowan would be on the high-church side.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
+Christopher, robed and mitred, attended Benediction at the high altar of Coventry Cathedral at the conclusion of the 2008 AffCath pilgrimage. He is known for an interest in liturgy and played a large part in the development of Common Worship.
Yes, i was there. Her also dressed properly (chasuble) to concelebrate in the morning. had a lovely smile when we gave me communion
I believe you can look into someone's eyes to see if they are genuine. I think he is the real deal and have been arguing for a long time that he is the right man for Canterbury - except that he might not have been a bishop for long enough - then nor had Carey, not that is a good comparison as far as the latter is concerned.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Very wet and without a backbone. I do hope this prediction is wrong.
I think that is unfair.
When he was principal, he made Ridley Hall an interesting place for those of us who aren't evangelicals - they run good courses, including for readers, and have published stuff about Christianity and the workplace - if he had no backbone, he would have played the church game and not encouraged such controversial stuff.
He has also written excellent stuff about ordained ministry - the theology and quality far exceeds the musings of Gordon Kuhrt (the latter has a functional view of ministry with little interest in prayer and the sacraments; Cocksworth is far, far better and focussed).
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Just so long as it's not another lunatic like Lord Carey.
You might not like his theology or politics but he is not any sort of "lunatic" and there's no need for the silly name calling
Though I suspect its not his theology or politics but his firm support for the ordination of women which made him so unpopular at the extreme heights of Anglo-Catholicism - maybe the same goes for Rowan as well, I've never quite worked out why so many of them, both theological liberals and theological conservatives, seem to hate him so - or maybe hatred of archbishops is a natural consequence of their position, whoever the bishops might be.
And anyway, if you lined up all the Anglicans in the world one one long spectrum of churchmanship from the snake's belly to the top of the candle, Carey would be nearer the centre on the low-church side, probably a lot nearer the centre, than Rowan would be on the high-church side.
I once mentioned to someone who worked closely with both of them that Lord Carey probably wasn't intelligent enough, or at least not intellectual enough, for the job (in particular he seemed to have difficulty understanding theological positions other than his own, particularly on the Catholic side), whereas ++Rowan was perhaps too much of an intellectual. He responded with a resounding affirmation that this was, indeed, the problem.
I have much more personal sympathy for ++Rowan, whom I've seen 'in action', where he exudes a sense of calm and quiet authority (+Carey doesn't have this quality at all, although in fairness I've only met him at a party).
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I think +Londin. would make an excellent ABC, but the CofE currently idolizes youth, and anyone over 60 tends not to be taken seriously — never mind that men in their seventies are often called by our coreligionists in Rome and the Eastern Churches.
Londin preached well at the royal wedding but is regarded as a friend of the very wealthy, the sort who inhabit gentlemen's clubs.
If that is true, I can't think that he would have a very wide appeal.
He also comes across as rather old-fashioned.
Someone who can lipread reckoned he was two-faced ion his treatment of the occupy protesters - saying christian stuff to them out loud and then telling the police to get rid of them asap.
I hope all that is not true - after all, it is hearsay.
It would be nice to hear good stuff about him from someone in his diocese.
[ 05. August 2012, 18:00: Message edited by: leo ]
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
An argument could also be made — and perhaps should be made more vociferously — that being the Bishop of London is the only job that gives anything like a good preparation for being ABC. There's the inherently political element, of course, and the links to the Royal Family (as the ex officio Dean of the Chapel Royal), but more important is the fact that London is probably the only diocese in the Church of England that reflects the diversity of the CofE on a national scale, and the only diocese in the world that reflects the diversity of the Anglican Communion. There is no extreme that won't be found in London — in the square mile of the City of London alone , there are churches as diverse as St Helen's, Bishopsgate, S. Magnus the Martyr, St Michael, Cornhill, and S. Bartholomew the Great. How many other dioceses have that kind of diversity?
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
|
Posted
I believe and which has been expressed by the the other Bishops within the wider Anglican Communion is that a traditionalist needs to be appointed to the role of Archbishop of Canterbury.
He should be an Anglo-Catholic, the CofE has suffered enough we do not need a Evangelical Bishop to make it work. The only suitable person would be +Pete Willesden who seems to be only sympathetic Evo Bishop I've seen.
We need someone like +Rowan Cantaur and +David Hope. If we are to do a Catholic it cannot be an Affirming Catholic (not that there is anything wrong with them as we are all Anglo-Catholic) but a Traditionalist will make more of a difference.
As much as the CofE may be against, it will happen. We need to build up a church which is seen to be crumbling (which we are not). I sent +Richard Londin (Chartres) name in as I think he is the only qualified Bishop to be Archbishop of Canterbury.
Although you'd need to work out how it would work when it comes to consecrating Women Bishops when the Archbishop doesn't ordain women
--------------------
+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Just so long as it's not another lunatic like Lord Carey.
You might not like his theology or politics but he is not any sort of "lunatic" and there's no need for the silly name calling
Frankly, his politics are the far side of vile, suggesting lunacy is the charitable option when the alternative is active malevolence.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
I believe and which has been expressed by the the other Bishops within the wider Anglican Communion is that a traditionalist needs to be appointed to the role of Archbishop of Canterbury.
He should be an Anglo-Catholic, the CofE has suffered enough we do not need a Evangelical Bishop to make it work. The only suitable person would be +Pete Willesden who seems to be only sympathetic Evo Bishop I've seen.
I like Pete but he is a bit 'left wing' - which is why i like him.
The job traditionally seesaws between anglo and evo so it is the evo's term.
The Nigerians and Ugandans and their paymasters are demanding a say - so it will be a trad. evo if they get their way.
Anglo catholicism is, at present, moribund.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Nigerians and Ugandans and their paymasters are demanding a say - so it will be a trad. evo if they get their way.
What paymasters?
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Someone who can lipread reckoned he was two-faced ion his treatment of the occupy protesters - saying christian stuff to them out loud and then telling the police to get rid of them asap.
I can't lip read and have no inside gossip, but his public handling of the affair looked bad to me. He asked them to commit to disbanding before he would talk to them at one point, and he later gave a dreadful interview where he gave the impression that mistakes had been made by everyone but him, and he'd come in at the last minute to sort the mess out. It was not a credible account.
I thought the affair made him appear very pro-establishment and a terrible contrast with Giles Fraser.
Perhaps, on reflection, this is how one ends up ABC.
[ 05. August 2012, 19:22: Message edited by: mdijon ]
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It looks even more of a "poisoned chalice" than when Rowan took over. Hope I'm wrong about that.
It is a chalice of hemlock and double cyanide on the rocks with a chaser of strychnine and an extra side order of viper venom. On steroids. I can't imagine who in their right mind wouldn't feign madness just to avoid nomination.
Whoever gets the job should be reassured by this
[ 05. August 2012, 19:25: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
|
Posted
This is not intended to be a comment on the suitability or otherwise of the bishop of London to be archbishop, as I don't know anything about who is suitable. But as Leo wanted to know if anyone had a good experience of him, I will mention that I was present as a visitor when he led a service at St Paul's Northfields. This is a new wine church and about as un Anglican as an Anglican church can be, more like vineyard than anything else.
He seemed very relaxed in the informal atmosphere, spoke very well and suitably for the mostly younger congregation, and was very favourably received as far as I could tell.
--------------------
We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
He should be an Anglo-Catholic, the CofE has suffered enough we do not need a Evangelical Bishop to make it work. The only suitable person would be +Pete Willesden who seems to be only sympathetic Evo Bishop I've seen.
Haven't seen much of Pete173 lately -- I'd be interested in his input here.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Frankly, his politics are the far side of vile, suggesting lunacy is the charitable option when the alternative is active malevolence.
You'll be running out of words to use for the real bastards if you are already wasting ones like "far side of vile" for George Carey. There are degrees and scales of vileness. For a start there is the bloody Tory Cabinet. A nastier bunch than that George Carey, but not quite "beyond vile" yet, or even all vile, even if they are lower than vermin. (I quite like some vermin) Then worse than them you might have, say, Mitt Romney. Or a genuine piece of shit like Sarah Palin - evil and stupid and ignorant all at the same time, which is pretty bad but maybe not quite bad enough to be vile, nevery mind yet beyond it. Or our homegrown racist attack-bitch Melanie kill-them-all-God-will-know-his-own(and-they-won't-be-fucking-Arab-slime) Phillips. She's vile, cvertainly (well her stated political opinions are vile, maybe she isn;t so bad in person, no doubt she is kind to her family and friends and small furry animals) And therse is still a long way before you get to the utter vileness of say, Saddam Hussein. To actually go beyiond vile we might have to ramp up the shite-rating to the level of the BNP or KKK. And there are a load worse than them around.
If you start wasting words like "beyond vile" on George Carey what on earth do you call some of those? And why hate him so much? What did he do to you? He doesn't even rant and whinge all over Radio Four like Ms Phillips does. Did he kick your cat when you were little or something? Where are you getting this from?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The job traditionally seesaws between anglo and evo so it is the evo's term.
The Nigerians and Ugandans and their paymasters are demanding a say - so it will be a trad. evo if they get their way.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) You forgot to blame the Knights Templar, the Lizard Men from Mars, and the Secret City of the Elder Things beyind the Mountains of Madness at the South Pole.
Andyway, there has never been a conservative evangelical Archbishop of Canterbury and its hard to imagine there could be one now with the centre of gravity of English evangelicalism shifted so far towards the charismatic and ecumenical.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I thought the affair made him appear very pro-establishment and a terrible contrast with Giles Fraser.
Perhaps, on reflection, this is how one ends up ABC.
No not the Bishop of London I hope. And not Giles Fraser either! I'm sure he's a lovely man but he somehow manages to make himself seem more left-wing than I think he really is. My inner paranoid conspiracy-theorist detects in him a hidden authoritarian under that liberal cardigan-wearing exterior. He had a rather nasty column in the Church Times last week recommending compulsory DNA testing for everybody to be stored in a central database, and then accusing anyone who dared to disagree with that idea of being "right wing". In some ways he might find he agrees with Melanie Philips ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
I don't hate Lord Carey, I do hate his opinions. The homophobia, the xenophobia, the arms trade promoting, the racist dog whistles. In many areas his views are pretty much identical to those of Melanie Philips and the likes of Nadine Dorries. The difference is that there is nothing beyond nationality linking me to Philips and Dorries, and even less linking me to Romney or Palin. Lord Carey was my Archbishop when I was growing up, and I feel contaminated by association every time he opens his mouth to spew forth some other tory talking point.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Andyway, there has never been a conservative evangelical Archbishop of Canterbury
Archibald Tait? Randall Davidson? +Carey is certainly an Evangelical and is pretty conservative politically and in other respects, with the notable and perhaps sole exception of the ordination of women (which is not an issue for most Anglican evangelicals who are far too busy worrying about 'teh gayz' and, of course, the evil Papists and their ritualist appeasers). Unless you're using 'conservative evangelical' as some sort of secret code.
[ 05. August 2012, 20:20: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Andyway, there has never been a conservative evangelical Archbishop of Canterbury
Archibald Tait? Randall Davidson? +Carey is certainly an Evangelical and is pretty conservative politically and in other respects, with the notable and perhaps sole exception of the ordination of women (which is not an issue for most Anglican evangelicals who are far too busy worrying about 'teh gayz' and, of course, the evil Papists and their ritualist appeasers). Unless you're using 'conservative evangelical' as some sort of secret code.
Lord Carey is relatively liberal on the remarriage of divorcees, which strikes me as requiring incredible cognitive dissonance given his hostility towards gay marriage.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I don't think there is a conservative evangelical bishop in the C of E (with the exception of +Wallace Lewes, soon to retire). Politically conservative bishops, yes, but they are mainly MOTR or trad Catholic. Apart from the hot-button Dead Horse issue (which strangely inflames otherwise moderate men) I'd guess most evangelical bishops tend to be left-of-centre on both political and social issues.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
quote:
I feel contaminated by association every time he opens his mouth
arethosemyfeet - when dawn breaks and the cold light of day casts its pale blue light over yet another pointless engagement, you may wish to review introducing a doctrine of taint into yet another wretched argument.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Very wet and without a backbone.
So exactly what the Crown Nominations Commission and No.10 will be looking for then.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Nigerians and Ugandans and their paymasters are demanding a say - so it will be a trad. evo if they get their way.
What paymasters?
It was proven, some years back, that US conevos are bankrolling them. There was a thread about it on these boards.
I am also reading a book about it by Eva Grisworld - they are being manipulated
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
He should be an Anglo-Catholic, the CofE has suffered enough we do not need a Evangelical Bishop to make it work. The only suitable person would be +Pete Willesden who seems to be only sympathetic Evo Bishop I've seen.
Haven't seen much of Pete173 lately -- I'd be interested in his input here.
I suspect he would feel it inappropriate/unprofessional to comment on individuals, though he'd have a great insight into the general principles.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Lord Carey is relatively liberal on the remarriage of divorcees, which strikes me as requiring incredible cognitive dissonance given his hostility towards gay marriage.
I believe his stance on remarriage was formed by personal family experience and by his pastoral work (which he wrote about shamelessly when he should have kept confidences) with the royal family.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Arethosemyfeet
Please stick to the point. Which has widened, legitimately, to considerations of other candidates for ABC, but has nowt to do with homophobic or right wing attitudes (whether alleged or real) held by any previous ABC.
To use your own word, opinions may vary on whether your posts may be tainting the thread. But they are in danger of derailing it.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[ 06. August 2012, 09:07: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
parm
Shipmate
# 9287
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And not Giles Fraser either! I'm sure he's a lovely man but he somehow manages to make himself seem more left-wing than I think he really is. My inner paranoid conspiracy-theorist detects in him a hidden authoritarian under that liberal cardigan-wearing exterior. He had a rather nasty column in the Church Times last week recommending compulsory DNA testing for everybody to be stored in a central database, and then accusing anyone who dared to disagree with that idea of being "right wing". In some ways he might find he agrees with Melanie Philips
I think some of the confusion here stems from the conflation of "left-wing" and "liberal". Giles doesn't claim to be liberal, he claims to be a socialist, in that given a choice between the common good and individual liberty he will always go with the common good. He wrote a piece in the Grauniad about it recently, if I can find it...
[ 06. August 2012, 13:48: Message edited by: parm ]
--------------------
Honestly, I have no idea.
Posts: 98 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by parm:
...he claims to be a socialist, in that given a choice between the common good and individual liberty he will always go with the common good.
That's a funny definition of "socialist"! And one that applies to lots of conservatives as well. Not at all left-wing it seems to me. We socialists want liberty and equality as well as fraternity! (Bread and roses! Land and freedom!)
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Yes, ken, but they have to be balanced. Sometimes allowing untrammelled liberty infringes on fraternity and equality. (BTW, what is an acceptably non-sexist word for 'fraternity'?)
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Unless you're using 'conservative evangelical' as some sort of secret code.
Yes, of course we are! Well, in a special jargon sense that we use in matters of what Anglicans (and no-body much else) call "churchmanship". I'd assume it was a code known to anyone even a little bit familiar with the diversity of Anglicansim, (Where "diversity" is a polite term for "bitchy internecine politicking")
And in matters of churchmanship, "conservative" doesn't refer to politics but to theology, doctrine, and worship style. And "conservative evangelicals" are contrasted with "charismatic evangelicals" and the now almost extinct "liberal evangelicals" (*), and - pretty much in the Church of England only, other people don't use the phrase - the new-fangled "open evangelicals".
Just to fill in those who missed last week's exciting episode:
"Conservative evangelicals", pretty much anywhere in the world, are likely to:
- take a literalist or inerrantist position on Bible interpretation
- use rather traditional low-church liturgy in public worship, with long expository sermons, lots of hymns, and only infrequent Communions
- be suspicious of "gifts of the spirit" and emotionalism in worship, and very wary of Pentecostalism
- often, but by no means always, have a broadly Calvinist approach to doctrine
- talk about the death of Jesus on the cross as the main work of salvation, usually (though not always) in terms of penal substitution, sometimes almost to the exclusion of any other view of atonement
- engage in traditional evangelism, seek converts, and want to see outward signs of conversion from all Christians
- regard themselves as the heirs of the reformation and the Puritans (in a way that other sorts of church are not)
- be very suspicious of the Roman Catholic Church, often (but not always) seeing it as not a Christian institution at all.
- avoid formal ecumenicalism (though they are usually prepared to co-operate informally with local churches of other denominations)
- be suspicious of a strong emphasis on eschatology and prophecy
- see liberal theology as no longer truly Christian
- worry that members of liberal or catholic churches are in spiritual danger because they have not had the true Gospel presented to them so they might think they are safely Christian when in fact they remain unconverted
In a specifically British Anglican context (things would be different in other denominations or countries) you would also expect self-defined "conservative evangelicals" to:
- use Morning and Evening Prayer as the main service of public worship, with some tendencies towards the hymn-sandwich, with or without a worship band ("charismatic evangelicals" prefer a less traditionally structured praise-band and worship-session style of service, "open evangelicals" can get up to anything though they seem to be increasingly more liturgical and eucharistic)
- reject a lot of recent liturgical innovation, because it does not express their doctrines adequately
- value the 39 Articles as a definition of Christian doctrines, and find it still useful to describe their own teachings
- have a low view of the importance of bishops (this they share with many of the the charismatics)
- sometimes still use the BCP and the AV Bible in main Sunday services - or at any rate they are perhaps less unlikely to use them than than other churchmanships are, most conservative evangelical parishes use modern translations at most services nowadays.
- often, but by no means always, reject the ordained ministry of women ("open evangelicals" are almost by definition strong supporters of women's ordination, "charismatic evangelicals" tend to have mixed views)
- assume that Anglo-Catholics are always theologically liberal
- work much more closely with local evangelical churches of other denominations than with non-evangelical Anglican parishes (the same is true of all flavours of evangelical though self-defined "open evangelicals" are more likely to make an effort to get involved in specifically Anglican things)
I made those lists up myself just now but I think they are probably pretty fair. And of those twenty features of conservative evangelicalism I'd guess that George Carey would probably show well under half. Maybe even only four or five. As parties in the Church of England go he's definitely an evangelical, but not a conservative evangelical.
(*) Its probably unfair to say that the old liberal evangelical party is "extinct" in England. It lives on in the URC and Methodists, and even some Baptist churches. Specifically in the Church of England "liberal evangelical" parishes of a generation or so ago are likely to have moved "up the candle" liturgically and have mutated into "liberal catholic" ones - which in much of the CofE is the mainstream. If they retained a low-church identity they are likely to have merged with the "open evangelical" party. Yes there are still a few parishes around with prayer-book liturgy, scholarly sermons, and theology so liberal it is hardly there at all, but there are few of them.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
[*]assume that Anglo-Catholics are always theologically liberal
That's a very curious thing to assume, given that Anglo-Catholicism has its root in the rejection of theological liberalism. Indeed, I find it very hard to imagine an Anglo-Catholic who would self-identify as being liberal in theology, assuming that 'liberal' here refers to the influence of 19th century liberal theologians, particularly from Germany. Obviously, most Anglo-Catholics have been influenced by 19th century liberal theology, but no more — and generally rather less — than most Anglicans. Politically, I think, only a few Anglo-Catholics are liberals: most tend to be either some kind of Tory — generally either 'High' or 'One Nation — or else some kind of socialist; even those between these extremes would probably not self-describe as 'liberal' (although I personally might, albeit with caveats).
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Yes there are still a few parishes around with prayer-book liturgy, scholarly sermons, and theology so liberal it is hardly there at all, but there are few of them.
I would say that that is the normative churchmanship in this part of the world.
[ 06. August 2012, 16:03: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Yes, ken, but they have to be balanced. Sometimes allowing untrammelled liberty infringes on fraternity and equality. (BTW, what is an acceptably non-sexist word for 'fraternity'?)
I suppose it ought to be 'siblinguity', but I don't imagine that catching on as a word. Can you imagine anyone proclaiming on the barricades, 'Liberty, equality, siblinguity'?
On the more serious question of people throwing the accusation of 'theological liberal' at each other, I'm not sure how relevant it still is to assess this by reference to nineteenth century Germans. It may be more useful to ask the question,
'Given the scripture, tradition and reason, do you regard them as three independent sources, or do you regard scripture as having a stronger status so that you might draw on the other two to help you understand what the Spirit might be saying to the churches?'.
Or to put it more bluntly, can you say?
'my reason, or my understanding of the tradition leads me to the view that scripture is wrong on this'.
Or is the self evident conclusion from this?
'if that is where my reason or my understanding of the tradition lead me, then my understanding of them must be wrong'.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On the more serious question of people throwing the accusation of 'theological liberal' at each other. [/i]
Not throwing accusations. Merely taking Spike(c) at face value and so trying to explain what we mean by "conservative evangelical" - and why few of them ever get to be Bishops and none to be Archbishops
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
[*]assume that Anglo-Catholics are always theologically liberal
That's a very curious thing to assume, given that Anglo-Catholicism has its root in the rejection of theological liberalism.
It may seem to be an odd thing to say to you but I can assure you that a significant number of Anglican evangelicals do assume that Anglo-Catholics - or "high church" as they would be more likely to say - are theologically liberal, if they can be counted as Christians at all. Thirty years ago almost all of them would have thought that. Most of them have probably softened a little since, but the more conservative the evangelical the less likely they are to approve of the Catholic end of things.
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Yes there are still a few parishes around with prayer-book liturgy, scholarly sermons, and theology so liberal it is hardly there at all, but there are few of them.
I would say that that is the normative churchmanship in this part of the world.
Really? 1662 Morning Prayer as the main Sunday service?
Anyway, the normative churchmanship in this part of the world is liberal-catholic - Common Worship eucharists with lots of tat and not much of a sermon - pretty the sort of thing that lots of evangelicals say has ruined the CofE. (But then they always did say that which is why there are so many coming and going all the time)
[ 06. August 2012, 16:56: Message edited by: ken ]
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Really? 1662 Morning Prayer as the main Sunday service?
Indeed. Okay, only in two parishes (one of them large, the other small). In one case, alternating with BCP Holy Communion (with stay-behind in weeks where there isn't a sung Communion). The larger parish has both a CW sung Eucharist and Choral Mattins every Sunday, but with the latter in the 'main slot' (although it's sometimes swapped for a hymn sandwich with a lengthy sermon). Both parishes are quite liberal theologically. Most of the other parishes lean in that direction, although not to the same extent.
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
