Ship of Fools: St Clem didn't do it ........

Thread: St Clem didn't do it ........ Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

....or so he'd have us believe . Whats-more he sought Biblical authority to convince everyone else they shouldn't be doing it either, --- masturbating that is . Despite the fact that nowhere in the Bible is it expressly forbidden.

To this day soap operas, which are content to cover virtually every combination of human sexuality, are reluctant to 'go there'.
Sit-coms have learnt the hard way to avoid it, and even the crudest of stand-up comedians are weary, lest the tumble-weed of joke death suddenly appears once the the "M" word passes their lips.

Is it this geezer, (St Clement of Alexandria- AD 150-235 ), still haunting us for Centuries afterwards , or is there some other explanation as to why a , really quite innocent, activity still cleaves to it's taboo status ?

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
or is there some other explanation as to why a , really quite innocent, activity still cleaves to it's taboo status ?

Control

Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Sit-coms have learnt the hard way to avoid it [snip]

Have they, now?

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
or is there some other explanation as to why a , really quite innocent, activity still cleaves to it's taboo status ?
Control

Are you saying that people find the concept of control taboo?

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

Not sure which sit-coms or comedians you're into, but masturbation doesn't seem to be taboo on lots of the shows I've seen.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Admittedly I very middle of the road where viewing is concerned . 'The Vicar of Dibley' might have hinted at masturbation a couple of times via the earthy character 'Owen' .
The show I had in mind was 'Men behaving badly' where most things seem to go, right up until the one where Gary was concealing *used* tissues and his girlfriend, Dorothy, kept finding them by means of their adhesive nature.
It was reasonably funny, but screening it at Christmas was probably the error of judgement that drew in the significant number of complaints.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

It's not a vast leap to suggest that masturbation has strong association with lustful fantasising which, in Biblical terms, is adultery. It focuses on physical pleasure as an end in itself rather than as an expression of affection within a loving relationship. A bit of pubescent experimentation will do no great harm but I'm not sure that it is "really quite innocent".

Posted by manfromcaerdeon (# 16672) on :

The Catholic Church teaches that "Masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder" and has hardly changed its view over 2000 years, whilst Leviticus 15 talks of spilling and wasting seed.

As kids, we were told that it was an abnormal act, although statistically the abnormality is actually not to masturbate. One had to sleep on one's back, arms crossed over chest to keep hands from straying, with the last thoughts before sleep being on Jesus. Difficult for lots of adolescent boys! There is probably much less emphasis on this nowadays thankfully.

Wiki has a good section on Religious views on Masturbation.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I doubt if any taboo is religious these days.

People don't talk about it/admit to it because it implies they are not 'getting enough' imo.

There is no intimacy in masturbation, is there? The 'high' (or highs in the case of women [Biased]

) are rather like coffee - fine until the next one is required!

With sex the intimacy brings a lasting effect far beyond the temporary highs of masturbation.

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by manfromcaerdeon:
Leviticus 15 talks of spilling and wasting seed.

No it doesn't.

It says that any emission of semen makes the man unclean until evening, and if semen is emitted during intercourse it makes the woman unclean as well. It gives no moral distinction between emissions during intercourse or alone.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

Nothing in the Bible about it. The definition of biblical adultery is actually completely different in the Jewish polygamous society. You only commit adultery when you take someone elses wife. Our modern Bible's translation of Matthew 28 'do not lust' is wrong. The word translated lust does not mean sexual lust, but 'to desire strongly' the word woman should have been translated 'wife'. All Jesus said was don't go round eyeing up married women or you've committed the act of taking someone's wife sexually in your heart (just as being angry with someone can lead to murder, lusting after someone's wife can lead to breaking up a family).

I would nominate Neil Anderson's so called Freedom in Christ course as the most controlling and disturbing with regard to sexual repression. Frankly his views on sex are completely bonkers. This course is doing the rounds as an after alpha course. Its seriously flawed on all levels. Of course masturbation and lust are a big deal to him, more so than most other issues. Even lust in dreams is apparently a problem to be dealt with by confession and repentance. New Frontiers love it to bits, especially when confession and accountability are added in. Makes those in charge look very moral as they help weed out every lustful thought...

In the middle ages it wasn't uncommon for those who confessed sexual sin to be beaten whilst marched round the church as the leaders looked on. Now we see the same rubbish making a come back within highly controlling denominations.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

"The Catholic Church teaches that "Masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder" and has hardly changed its view over 2000 years, whilst Leviticus 15 talks of spilling and wasting seed. "

Shame they didn't read it in context then. If they had it proves the exact opposite !

Onan's sin was that he refused to impregnate his dead brother's wife, in addition to the wife he already had. How the heck the Catholic church can twist this story into anything against 'lust' or masturbation is beyond me ! Its because he didn't lust after another woman besides his wife and get her pregnant he got into trouble ! Not exactly the best bit of scripture to pick to make your anti masturbation case from ! [Devil]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's not a vast leap to suggest that masturbation has strong association with lustful fantasising which, in Biblical terms, is adultery.

Some years back I found, in a men's health magazine, a step by step guide to "affair-proof" your marriage/relationship .
One section was about what you should do in the event of another woman entering your thoughts , either through a bit of flirting at work or some horse-play from else where .

I was quite surprised to read the advice . It said to fix this person in you mind one night, (or nights), and use masturbation as a means to get them out of your brain . Sounded a bit dubious to me at the time , but if it works I guess it must be right.

Masturbation *is* usually associated with 'not getting enough', but as with most associations it's far from the whole truth.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I would nominate Neil Anderson's so called Freedom in Christ course as the most controlling and disturbing with regard to sexual repression. Frankly his views on sex are completely bonkers. This course is doing the rounds as an after alpha course. Its seriously flawed on all levels.

It's a bit old now, but I'll just leave this here.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
or is there some other explanation as to why a , really quite innocent, activity still cleaves to it's taboo status ?
Control
Are you saying that people find the concept of control taboo?

No – I’m saying that the concept of taboo is used to implement and maintain control over others. Those who have control will resist the loss of a valuable tool and therefore the retention of taboos in the pursuit of control may be encouraged irrespective of whether or not the taboo has any validity.

Those who seek to control others (manipulators? [Snigger]

) but cannot do so physically use a range of weapons including guilt, fear of ridicule and group membership definers (clothing/rituals etc).

One of the most powerful control techniques is to convince the controllee that a normal, harmless activity is wrong/unclean/reprehensible/ridiculous. If enough of a group’s population are convinced the taboo becomes a self-perpetuating control tool since the group will enforce the control for the controller.

Unfortunately, when the object of the taboo is as basic to homo sapiens as is masturbation the taboo is all the more powerful because human sexuality is so fundamentally important to us. Interfering with normal development paths can lead to antisocial behaviour - peaceful or violent behaviors relate directly to whether premarital adolescent sex was permitted or punished. Sparta anyone?

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

[/tangent
Loved the story in which there was a parrot named Onan because he spilled his seed./]

GG

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Like it GG [Big Grin]

Whist on the Bible, it does seem remarkable that masturbation didn't get a mention in the Deuteronomy law . I wonder if even Moses was a bit reticent about broaching the subject.
After all wet dreams were noted . And if you did get 'took by chance' in the night you had to spent the next day outside the camp washing yourself clean.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

It involves icky bodily fluids, for one thing.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

.... and it's anti-social .

Thereby giving it 'sad-bastard' status .

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I like it too rolyn.

And no, it doesn't work. Utter bloody nonsense.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Words of insult show taboos in societies, and the term "wanker" shows that (male) masturbation is indeed a taboo, at least in GB (not sure whether "wanker" is said as abuse in other English speaking countries. It is in Germany).

I think that, nowadays, having a tug is a sign of not being with a woman, which society deems to be a Bad Thing. That men can satisfy themselves sexuall without women (sometimes in a better way) is also problematical for many.

I believe that masturbation has become less of a taboo (I've heard of a masturbation festival happening somewhere, whereby people openly masturbate for "world masturbation day"), though I believe that that is only for women, what with the increasing tolerance of the use of dildos and women having a play down there.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I don't think it is *that* taboo, can you get any more mainstream than Victoria Wood.

(Link is not safe for work.)

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

WWJD?

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Words of insult show taboos in societies, and the term "wanker" shows that (male) masturbation is indeed a taboo .

We fellows rarely drop our guard over these things, so it's usually easier to use this term in joke or insult rather than examine it in any real positive light .
------------------------------------------------

I believe that masturbation has become less of a taboo (I've heard of a masturbation festival happening somewhere, whereby people openly masturbate for "world masturbation day"), though I believe that that is only for women, what with the increasing tolerance of the use of dildos and women having a play down there.

I can imagine a few guys trying to get in there dressed in drag . Spectators if you get my drift [Biased]

There's me falling back into cultural conditioning again.

Didn't a man in the US go in for masturbating in public recently ? Needless to say he was slated for being a pervert, pedophile etc. etc.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

The event was for men and women.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Slated ? Diagnosed.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

It's all about self-control.

It's high time that masturbators got a grip on themselves.

Seriously, the subject is a completely dead issue in the evangelicalism in which I move, and has been for decades.

In fact, I noticed a reference somewhere recently, which might have been in the mainstream American evangelical magazine Christianity Today, to evangelicals who teach that masturbation is a gift of God for the single to keep them from fornication or adultery.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

A few years ago someone asked me if I thought Jesus and the apostles did it. I said, "probably," they were normal guys and all.

I lost a friend--this guy deeply expected me to say "Of course NOT."

I really, really am not bothered either way, though; though I do think they probably did.

I worry more about those who care about it though.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

There's no way the Jesus of the narratives did.

As for the disciples. You're a 14 year old boy who lives with a large, extended patriarchal, uptight Jewish religious yet down to earth family in an open plan hovel with no bathroom and you work 16 hours a day and often go hungry.

You do it.

Posted by moron (# 206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As for the disciples. You're a 14 year old boy who lives with a large, extended patriarchal, uptight Jewish religious yet down to earth family in an open plan hovel with no bathroom and you work 16 hours a day and often go hungry.

Had they not quite mastered agriculture, then?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

They hadn't quite mastered social justice.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

@Kaplan - your evangelical circles must have changed a fair bit from 'my day'. As far as I know, this issue is still something of an evangelical hot-potato - but probably less of an issue than it used to be ...

I dunno - standards dropping. We were more rigorous (or else less honest) back in my day ...

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
With sex the intimacy brings a lasting effect far beyond the temporary highs of masturbation.

That does rather depend on the sex, I think. [Biased]

I thought masturbation was something of a non-issue these days until someone I knew made a comment that made me think, "Ah... ok..." and add it to the list of the things I need to keep quiet about in certain quarters. [Smile]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I think another problem with masturbation is modern-day, (not entirely unjustified), misconception that it is the preserve of sex-aholics , or individuals not knowing how to limit self-induced stimulation.

It would be a scary world if we couldn't trust the workings of our own mind . The idea that it is God who tells us when, and when not to masturbate is not as crazy as it sounds.

People have many reasons as to why masturbation may be desirable or necessary . In many ways it's a 'my space' thing , and remains that way even in the absence of religious oppression.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As far as I know, this issue is still something of an evangelical hot-potato

Based on...?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Personal experience of evangelicals. Some of my best friends are evangelicals.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Personal experience of evangelicals. Some of my best friends are evangelicals.

So what do they say?

Are they hearing sermons about it, or reading about it in the evangelical media, or getting gratuitous one-to-one "counselling" about it?

I'm genuinely interested that it is still an issue.

As teenagers, we heard cryptic warnings issued at youth rallies about "habits".

I didn't have the faintest idea what they were talking about at the time, but looking back I assume it was masturbation.

There was also a wonderful little book along the lines of "what every boy should know" (the sort of thing which lulled you into a false sense of safety by beginning with the birds and bees, and then ambushed you with a huge labelled diagram of the male genitalia when you turned the page) which contained helpful advice about sleeping with a cotton reel tied to the small of your back.

I also liked that advice to girls about dressing modestly "so as not to make it hard for him" (yes, I know).

The writers never seemed to realise that adolescent boys would still go around cross-eyed with lust if girls all wore burkas.

[ 24. August 2012, 07:58: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :

When I was a GLE in the early 90s, beating the bishop was considered as bad as ... well... actually beating a real bishop. I'd be very pleased to hear that things had changed since then.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The writers never seemed to realise that adolescent boys would still go around cross-eyed with lust if girls all wore burkas.

I am reminded of the first episode of The West Wing:

quote:
VAN DYKE
Show the average American teenage male a condom and his mind will turn
to thoughts
of lust.

TOBY
Show the average American teenage male a lug wrench and his mind'll turn...

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
When I was a GLE in the early 90s, beating the bishop was considered as bad as ... well... actually beating a real bishop. I'd be very pleased to hear that things had changed since then.

Very surprised to hear this. When I was a GLE at university in the 70s I can remember talks, and discussions, on the lines of: "There is nothing wrong with masturbation so why do we feel guilty about it?". And I don't think I lived in a deeply hedonistic enclave - sadly.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
lug wrench

I'm surprised you are permitted to use such smutty and inflaming expressions on the Ship!

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

from the annals of Buffy, Vampire Slayer and font of all wisdom:

Cordelia: "Does looking at guns make you want to have sex?"

Xander: "I'm seventeen - looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex!"

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

It's as crazy as it sounds.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

To be fair, Kaplan, most of the evangelical prohibitions I've heard myself date back to the 80s and 90s - but I doubt if things have changed a great deal in respect of attitudes towards it in the circles I moved in. They may have liberalised to a certain extent among evangelical Anglicans, Baptists and others - perhaps even among the Brethren.

My teenage daughters went to an evangelical yoof-camp in more recent years and were subjected to a toe-curlingly embarrassing talk about not dressing provocatively and abstinence before marriage and so on. The sexes were separated for the pep talk so I've no idea what the lads were told. If it were anything like it was back in my day, they'd have been told not to twang the wire as it was impossible to imagine Jesus ever having done so.

And with lashings of guilt-inducement ladled on top rather like the Famous Five's lashings of ginger beer ...

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Famous Five

Did you have a soft spot for Aunt Fanny?

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's as crazy as it sounds.

In that case maybe God would have done better to have placed a guy's genitals between his shoulder blades.
That way He wouldn't need to keep a beady eye on the world's male population and with an ..."Oi ! Leave it alone".

As for the Ladies ? They must be kept busy making lace doilies and never told of such things.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Aunt Fanny? OOOhhh Matron ...

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