|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Pussy Riot 2 (this time in Germany)
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 14:16
This thread is a spin-off from the other Purgatory thread on the russian protests:
Patriarch Kirill, Pussy Riot, and feminism as un-Orthodox
It has not been widely reported in the western media, but a group of protestors (including males) have performed a similar stunt in Cologne RC Cathedral during a service, in support of Pussy Riot. More details here:
Pussy Riot Protestors In Germany Escorted Out Of Cologne Cathedral, Could Face Prison
Technically, they could face 3 years in prison for this, but judging by the self-righteous indignation of western liberals, maybe it should be reduced to a slap on the wrist and 5 minutes on the naughty step for each member.
Thoughts?
[ 25. August 2012, 13:18: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 14:26
It is important in life to know that you should quit while you are behind.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 14:28
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
It is important in life to know that you should quit while you are behind.
If you've only got pointless comments to make without even engaging in the topic, it would be better if you didn't post on this thread at all.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 14:33
If this is just going to be a pissing contest, I'll close this thread now. Cut the crap.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 14:48
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Thoughts?
That (1) you are absolutely right, they will probably get a far lesser sentence.
That (2) if this turns out to be the case, it doesn't boost your argument re Pussy Riot one iota.
That (3) if in fact they get a heavy sentence, the rest of us will probably view it as excessive, just as we view the sentence of the actual Pussy Riot as excessive.
But that (4) it will depend on the precise facts of the particular case.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 14:48
It's depressing that these protesters are so totally ignorant of church politics that they think complaining in a Catholic building will affect an Orthodox group. My feeling about Pussy Riot is that 'time served' would have been an appropriate sentence; it is unacceptable to disrupt sacred space; it's part of what 'Religious Freedom' means, but the harshness of the Russian response is over the top. So for these guys - a few months inside would be appropriate...
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 15:29
Well one big difference is they seem not to have been thrown into prison while awaiting trial.
Another though less important is they disturbed a religious service and not just a religious place.
My guess is they will get something more like what some ActUp members got back in the 1980s when they disturbed in a much worst fashion a mass at St. Patrick's: community service or a fine (and perhaps a class on the difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy). However some news reports that a man in 2006 was sentenced to 9 months for disturbing a religious service in Berlin on German Unity Day. I can't find any extra information (how bad was the disturbance, had he previous related offenses, etc).
--------------------
spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 15:31
As orfeo says.
But perhaps a community sentence of studying church history would be appropriate, so they know the right one to protest in next time. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 15:40
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
This thread is a spin-off from the other Purgatory thread on the russian protests:
Patriarch Kirill, Pussy Riot, and feminism as un-Orthodox
It has not been widely reported in the western media, but a group of protestors (including males) have performed a similar stunt in Cologne RC Cathedral during a service, in support of Pussy Riot. More details here:
Pussy Riot Protestors In Germany Escorted Out Of Cologne Cathedral, Could Face Prison
Technically, they could face 3 years in prison for this, but judging by the self-righteous indignation of western liberals, maybe it should be reduced to a slap on the wrist and 5 minutes on the naughty step for each member.
Thoughts?
Give them no publicity whatsoever. When adults behave like toddlers it is best to remember that 'No reaction = no satisfaction', unless they or somebody else is coming to some harm; sometimes even then it is still best to sit back and observe. If they make a mess of the cathedral (or kitchen, as in our youngster's case many years ago), make them clean it up.
That would have been a better response in Moscow too.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 15:42
Part of the reason for the (maybe) tough Russian sentence was possibly to deter others from doing the same. People can think of 101 reasons for protesting against the Church (and we can argue 'till the cows come home whether they are justifiable), but they might think twice if they knew what was in store for them.
If the Germans are lenient, it will show disrespect for people's religious freedom, and probably lead to copy-cat incidents for many different reasons.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 15:44
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Technically, they could face 3 years in prison for this
Can I come back to this particular sentence for a moment, because it encapsulates everything that is wrong with this debate.
What you mean is, "the maximum sentence for distrubing a religious establishment is 3 years". Assuming the reporting and translation of reporting is accurate. I will assume for present purposes that it is.
That is THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE. FOR THE WORST POSSIBLE EXAMPLE OF THE OFFENCE.
It is just completely sloppy to talk about the maximum penalty as if it's relevant to every single case of disturbing a religious establishment. It simply isn't. Maximum means maximum. It doesn't mean usual. It doesn't mean default unless there are mitigating circumstances. It doesn't mean average. It doesn't mean that there is a past history of people getting that sentence.
I continue to find the proposition that Pussy Riot committed the worst possible form of religious disturbance, or even close to it, to be a quite ludicrous proposition. The same goes for this new case. I can readily imagine religious disturbances that include burning things, tearing things, chopping things, urinating, defecating, physical assault... and that's just the things I can come up with in half a minute.
To think that an event where NONE of those occurred might bring the maximum sentence into play requires, in my view, some seriously strange thinking.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 16:00
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...
If the Germans are lenient, it will show disrespect for people's religious freedom, and probably lead to copy-cat incidents for many different reasons.
Yes because disrupting church services in a country where the vast majority of church goers are old folks, and the church has no real power politically is a really really effective protest tactic. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 16:45
mark betts, we're bound to have walked past each other many times, as I lived round the corner from and have sat in St. Xenophon, but your awesome unintended irony will prevent us meeting up I fear.
You'd be too embarrassed.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 16:45
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
the self-righteous indignation of western liberals,
So we have self-righteous conservatives wanting tougher sentences. What's new?
When the bankers, with their bonusses, who have made the lives of the poor a misery, get their tough sentences, then this topic might be interesting enough to debate.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 17:31
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Technically, they could face 3 years in prison for this, but judging by the self-righteous indignation of western liberals, maybe it should be reduced to a slap on the wrist and 5 minutes on the naughty step for each member.
Thoughts?
Why should anyone engage with you? You've already decided people who disagree with you are self-righteously indignant western liberals with no sense of proportion, despite the evidence on other threads to the contrary.
Why on earth would anyone wish to engage with that kind of childish narrow-mindedness?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 18:06
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can readily imagine religious disturbances that include burning things, tearing things, chopping things, urinating, defecating, physical assault... and that's just the things I can come up with in half a minute.
Of course, but then they would face separate charges, probably with more serious penalties, for each of those acts. It's happened before. The miscreants were called roundheads and iconoclasts. They were wrong IMHO, but one must grant that they often acted out of religious conviction.
"Sacrilege is for those who still believe," said Benoit in Souffle du Coeur, with a bored and blasé shrug, when a younger altar boy proposed a prank. Perhaps the fact that anyone bothers to protest in a church service shows that the Christian faith is not as irrelevant as Og has suggested. In a way, perhaps the church should be flattered.
[ 25. August 2012, 17:07: Message edited by: Alogon ]
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 21:46
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
If the Germans are lenient, it will ... probably lead to copy-cat incidents for many different reasons.
I don't see that. It seems to me that the purpose of any protest is to gain publicity and raise awareness of the cause, whatever that may be.
If the result of the protest is that a "move along: nothing to see here" attitude is taken, this removes much of the incentive to protest.
The reason that we all know about the Pussy Riot protest and why it was successful in its aims of making people aware of its cause is precisely because the authorities made such a fuss over it and the media got involved.
If I were a political activist who believed strongly enough in my cause to be willing to accept the consequences, the Russian approach would be a welcome invitation to me. "Come and protest here: we'll advertise your cause for you!"
If, however, the authorities established a practice of not taking much notice, and dealing with these things quietly so as to avoid media attention, I don't think I'd see much point in bothering with the protest.
[ 25. August 2012, 20:49: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 21:51
Why is this in a separate thread? It appears to be the same old argument and the same old insults and the same old self-righteousness.
Also the commenters seem to be following the same pattern as well.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 22:02
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why is this in a separate thread? It appears to be the same old argument and the same old insults and the same old self-righteousness.
Also the commenters seem to be following the same pattern as well.
Not quite the same mousethief. The thing is that the west has been particularly critical of russia in the PR case, especially Germany. So now we will see how Germany deals with such things in its own back yard (so to speak.) Obviously we can't draw any conclusions yet, as we don't know how the German courts will deal with this.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 22:18
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Why should anyone engage with you? You've already decided people who disagree with you are self-righteously indignant western liberals with no sense of proportion, despite the evidence on other threads to the contrary.
Why on earth would anyone wish to engage with that kind of childish narrow-mindedness?
That sounds out of order to me Anselmina. I haven't made any personal insults about you have I? I'll leave it for the Hosts to deal with.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 23:16
No one seems to have commented on the fact that in both the Russian and the German protests the sign were in english. Were there signs in russian and german that were ignored by the enlish language press, or was the propaganda target the anglophone world?
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 23:18
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
No one seems to have commented on the fact that in both the Russian and the German protests the sign were in english. Were there signs in russian and german that were ignored by the enlish language press, or was the propaganda target the anglophone world?
Since English is the world's second language, it doesn't necessarily follow that merely the anglophone world was their target. Say rather The World.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
25 August, 2012 23:29
It's not uncommon for protesters in various countries to use English in their signs. Even in the ROK, where English proficiency runs fairly low and politics is heavily bound up with nationalism, protesters on both the right and the left often use a bit of English in their signs.
I'm not exactly sure as to their motivation. Probably for foreign viewers and readers.
[ 25. August 2012, 22:30: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 02:17
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why is this in a separate thread?
Simply because Mark Betts declared his intention not to post in the previous thread, then found something over which he couldn't bear to keep his mouth shut.
That's the conclusion I reached, anyway.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 02:47
There's a certain level of integrity there.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 03:25
I don't exactly understand what protesting during a Roman Catholic service at a Roman Catholic church in Germany will do to dissuade Russian Orthodox church leaders in Russia.
It sounds like staging a protest against the Vatican during a service at a non-denominational church in the U.S.
--------------------
http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 04:12
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There's a certain level of integrity there.
But only a certain level. Complying with the letter of the declaration, and not the spirit.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 07:17
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
I don't exactly understand what protesting during a Roman Catholic service at a Roman Catholic church in Germany will do to dissuade Russian Orthodox church leaders in Russia.
Even in culturally sophisticaed Europe, bohemian hipsters are not exactly known for their nuanced understanding of theology.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 07:36
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Simply because Mark Betts declared his intention not to post in the previous thread...
I did no such thing. It's a seperate thread because it's a new incident, not in the east but in the west. So we're seeing how the response of the west differs (or will differ) after all the media and political criticism, particularly from Germany.
[ 26. August 2012, 06:40: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 07:59
You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. It's a completely different incident, but the point is to compare the west's response with its response to PR? So it really is the same thread.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 08:04
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Simply because Mark Betts declared his intention not to post in the previous thread...
I did no such thing.
My apologies. I appear to have become confused with the Hell thread (keeping all the Pussy Riot threads organised in my head is so confusing). For the Purgatory thread you merely declared it a 'dead horse'.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 08:08
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. It's a completely different incident, but the point is to compare the west's response with its response to PR? So it really is the same thread.
OK, not the west's response (in this case Germany), but how the west actually deals with these people in the German courts, on their own soil, after all the rhetoric re. the PR trial.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 08:14
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Simply because Mark Betts declared his intention not to post in the previous thread...
I did no such thing.
My apologies. I appear to have become confused with the Hell thread (keeping all the Pussy Riot threads organised in my head is so confusing). For the Purgatory thread you merely declared it a 'dead horse'.
I did (but only for me.) That's because the discussion was just going round and round in circles, no-one was listening to anyone else, and the same old arguments were being regurgitated over and over again, without being properly substantiated.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 09:49
So now we can do it all over again here instead of on one of the other two threads.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 13:32
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Why should anyone engage with you? You've already decided people who disagree with you are self-righteously indignant western liberals with no sense of proportion, despite the evidence on other threads to the contrary.
Why on earth would anyone wish to engage with that kind of childish narrow-mindedness?
That sounds out of order to me Anselmina. I haven't made any personal insults about you have I? I'll leave it for the Hosts to deal with.
As will I. However, as I haven't broken any of the commandments (I think?) I doubt they'll waste their time. FWIW, I haven't made any personal insults about you either. But I have written that I think your OP contained some childish narrow-mindedness. It may not seem like it, but that doesn't mean that I necessarily think YOU are childish etc. And as it happens I don't, anyway. There is a distinction - which I hope isn't too fine, about heartily disliking what someone posts and wanting to insult them as a person.
But you're doing much the same thing when you make derogatory blanket comments about western liberals and their self-righteous. That would be me, then?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 14:35
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
As will I. However, as I haven't broken any of the commandments (I think?) I doubt they'll waste their time. FWIW, I haven't made any personal insults about you either. But I have written that I think your OP contained some childish narrow-mindedness. It may not seem like it, but that doesn't mean that I necessarily think YOU are childish etc. And as it happens I don't, anyway. There is a distinction - which I hope isn't too fine, about heartily disliking what someone posts and wanting to insult them as a person.
But you're doing much the same thing when you make derogatory blanket comments about western liberals and their self-righteous. That would be me, then?
The strange thing is that your view wasn't a million miles from mine until you posted that. You could at least see something of the seriousness of the incident, and had some appreciation of holy spaces. That's more than can be said for some, so "western liberal" is a stereotype not intended to point to particular people - do you see now?
When I composed the OP, my mind was more on western governments and media than on shipmates anyway.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 16:10
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
When I composed the OP, my mind was more on western governments and media than on shipmates anyway.
I'm not sure how many Shipmates are endowed with mind-reading abilities. Perhaps you might consider composing your posts with that in, er, mind.
In a text-based medium, it's often necesary not only to say what we think, but how we arrive at that thinking, and the context in which we're doing that thinking.
I think Anselmina and others can be forgiven for assuming that a sweeping generalization might be intended to apply to them, when no effort is made to claim otherwise.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 16:38
I think that's grossly unfair, Porridge. Nothing he has written on this subject on any of his three related threads could possibly lead an unbiased reader to conclude he thinks any shipmates are self-righteous western liberals.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 17:13
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think that's grossly unfair, Porridge. Nothing he has written on this subject on any of his three related threads could possibly lead an unbiased reader to conclude he thinks any shipmates are self-righteous western liberals.
Not individually, certainly. While it is clear he's addressing the western liberal view of shipmates when he's being critical and derisive about liberal westernism in general, it would be unfair to suggest he's been at all personally insulting to particular people.
However, Mark Betts' constant harping on it is very irritating if for no other reason than it seems to become a qualification in itself for not taking the principle of disagreement seriously. It's the 'well, what else do you expect from a..... (fill in bete noir of choice moment)'.
I'm very happy to be a western liberal, I see nothing to be ashamed of in that, quite apart from the 'western' part being completely accidental. I'm even prepared - as an individual - to own up to my own share of 'self-righteousness'. In fact, I think every philosophical and religious stance requires a belief in the righteousness of the stance; the amount of 'self' in that sentiment being a tricky thing to work out! Not many of us are that good at spotting our own faults.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
26 August, 2012 17:20
This thread does spend a lot more time talking about the posters than about any substantive points. It would be helpful if everyone considered what substantive point they were trying to make before posting, and if there is none, don't bother posting.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
|
Posted
28 August, 2012 16:37
I have been reading the other Pussy Riot thread and now this.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Technically, they could face 3 years in prison for this, but judging by the self-righteous indignation of western liberals, maybe it should be reduced to a slap on the wrist and 5 minutes on the naughty step for each member.
Thoughts?
Do I take it then, Mark Betts, that you think that three years in prison is an appropriate sentence for a bunch of protestors who interupt a church service?
Many years ago (1995) I attended a Christian conference which took a conservative line on sexuality and a charismatic line on inner healing. Half way through the meeting, a bunch of gay rights protestors, Peter Tatchell among them, burst in with placards and started shouting slogans. The conference delegates kept pretty calm, on the whole. Certainly nobody shouted things back at the Tatchell gang, we just kept on singing worship songs ... LOL.
Soon enough the police showed up and the Tatchell contingent were escorted out of the building. Still shouting, but not doing anything violent. I have no idea whether they were ever charged with anything. But if they had been, do I think they should have sent to prison?
No, I do not.
Yes, such a protest can be annoying and offensive, even upsetting. That's why such things are classified as 'breaching the peace'. A fine, community service, or even one night in jail would seem to me to be appropriate sentencing for that type of offence. But not three years in prison.
Of course people should be allowed to worship in peace without having their sacred space invaded. I want that religious freedom protected not just for me and my fellow Christians but for all people of all faiths.
But I cannot support the idea of a three-year prison sentence for the German protest. That seems ridiculously draconian, more befitting a totalitarian regime than a democratic one. It is not at the same level of 'violent disorder' that Charlie Gilmour was charged with here in the UK. (I have little to no sympathy for Charlie Gilmour, by the way.)
--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
