Thread: Can an alcoholic be a vicar? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by keepbuggeringon (# 8678) on
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Can an alcoholic be a vicar? I ask this because my partners brother is really keen on becoming a vicar in the Anglican Church. He is a top notch bloke who is so clearly gifted in working with people and communicating God's love.
However, he is honest enough to admit that he has had a drink problem for the last ten years. He is a professional teacher and functions extremely well in his job. It is only when he gets home that he will then have a few drinks.He doesn't tend to get massively drunk although he does drink a lot (e.g. bottle of wine / half a bottle of scotch). His sense of guilt and shame is really apparent when speaking to him and attempts to stop have been mixed. One way that has helped is some medication that he takes which will make him really ill if he has any kind of alcohol.
To a large extent his struggle with addiction is what makes him so human. When he speaks to people he has an incredible understanding of their weakness and is never judgemental of them. It is as if he almost ministers out of the broken places in his own life and his insight and understanding is really quite profound.
When speaking to him yesterday he raised several questions that I wasn't really able to give an answer to, hence I thought I would ask others for their views on the following:
Can an alcoholic be a vicar or would the expectation by that they have to totally abstain, and if so for how long?
If someone is a recovering alcoholic, how could they realistically participate in the Eucharist if they have to drink wine?
Would it be wise to disclose the problem to the DDO or BAP if the application got that far?
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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I have no idea what the official view is, but I think it shouldn't be an automatic bar, unless it makes him violent, abusive or unable to perform his duties. You wouldn't bar someone who is obese, though that might be indicative of a similar lack of self-control (and I speak as someone who doesn't drink alcohol outside of communion and has a serious issue with food).
The problem might be if his alcoholism is stress related, as stress can be a major problem for clergy, and additional stress might make him no longer able to function.
Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on
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I think it would be unwise not to disclose the alcohol issue to the DDO or whoever should his application go that far. Such a failure to disclose would be seen as misrepresentation and would inevitably lead to questions along the lines of, "What else have you failed to mention?" If there is any suggestion that there has been dishonesty, even by omission, his application would be dead in the water.
I cannot honestly say whether his problem would be seen as an impossible obstacle or not - the only way to find out would be to apply.
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
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Mrs Snags used to go to a church where the vicar was a (recovering) alcoholic. By all accounts he was much-loved and very effective.
I honestly don't know if the alcoholism pre- or post-dated his ministry. I do know he was sober when he was serving in that particular parish. He was still expected to drain the chalice at the end of communion, and did so without apparent ill effect or it raising insurmountable issues for him. Whether that was down to the grace of God or just personality I have no idea.
As others have said, I would have thought that full disclosure from the start is the only way to go. Who knows, it may be a step on the way to resolving the issue (or issues).
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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keepbuggeringon: quote:
Can an alcoholic be a vicar or would the expectation by that they have to totally abstain, and if so for how long?
To be a recovering alcoholic means to abstain, ideally forever. If he isn't in recovery, and he becomes a member of the clergy, I think the results might not be good. Being a clergy person is highly stressful, and self-medicating with drink would be a bad fix all around. After all, being a priest or pastor does not just mean taking Sunday services or regular office hours. It can mean being called to a sick bed any time of day or night.
On the other hand, if he should spend several years in recovery and have participated in AA, I think he might be in an excellent spiritual place from which to grow in ministry. The Twelve Steps contain quite a bit of the essence of charity and understanding of human short-comings that Christianity addresses.
ETA: As to the chalice, there are ways to meet that challenge. A very tiny intinction would be possible. And I don't know about the CoE, but in TEC anyone participating in the Eucharist may polish it off. Why not? There are no rules on how much a communicant may consume are there?
[ 27. August 2012, 19:37: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on
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I assume the question to be really 'Can an alcoholic be an Anglican priest?', rather than can one be a vicar. The former question suggests the whole path to vocational discernment and the path to ordination, the latter as to whether an already ordained priest can be a parish incumbent.
The short answer is 'yes', in the sense that it is physically possible to be an alcholic and ordained. There are a number of such people, both known and unknown to themselves. It is also physically possible to be an alcholic and a vicar, although holding down parish responsibilities with this or any other addiction would become obvious quite soon to parishoners and an increasing burden on the priest.
A deeper answer might be that it is likely that the person's parish priest would mention the problems of this addiction to the aspirant, and maybe the Diocesan Director of Ordinands, but this would depend on how open the candidate was with the parish priest. I expect both the parish priest and the DDO would suggest that this addiction be faced before the discernment process proceeded any further. It is likely that counselling and assistance would be offered. Additionally, before someone is formally accepted as a candidate for ordination, a full medical examination is required.
Alcholism, like other similar addictions, is a condition that requires careful and expert assistance and monitoring, not merely abstinence. It is admirable that someone should offer themselves as a possible candidate for ordination, especially someone with an accute awareness of the fragility of the human condition. However it is the case that the addiction would have to be faced first, both in its manifestation, and in the psychological make up that might give rise to such addiction. There is an element of nature and nuture about addiction, and the medical and psychological experts are the most qualified to deal with it.
It might well be that the path to facing this problem, and a successful outcome however this might be measured, in the long term might make the person quite a strong and effective priest.
Posted by keepbuggeringon (# 8678) on
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I am inclined to agree about taking the open and honest approach, but I also fear that if he did he probably wouldn't get past first base.
His drinking doesn't result in violence, abuse or anything of that nature, instead I suspect that the root causes are linked to boredom and loneliness but I can say that for certain. When he has evening meetings he goes out to them with no problem and if family & friends visit he will abstain entirely or limit his drinking. To a large extent if he had not told his sister and me about his struggling I don't think we would have ever known about it.
Can prospective ordinand’s ever be really open about their struggles or challenges with the DDO / BAP? And perhaps more fundamental, would God call someone to the priesthood knowing that they were struggling with alcoholism (or any other form of addiction).
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by keepbuggeringon:
It is only when he gets home that he will then have a few drinks.He doesn't tend to get massively drunk although he does drink a lot (e.g. bottle of wine / half a bottle of scotch). His sense of guilt and shame is really apparent when speaking to him and attempts to stop have been mixed. One way that has helped is some medication that he takes which will make him really ill if he has any kind of alcohol.
Would it be healthy for a vicar to be harbouring feelings of 'guilt and shame'? Isn't that a problem, if he's planning to preach that 'Christ sets us free'?
I'm a Methodist, not an Anglican, which doesn't mean I think vicars shouldn't drink! But one thing Methodists do wisely, I think, is expect people to have a history of working for their local church before they're accepted for training. In the Methodist church this means already having been a local preacher. In your friend's case, if he were already well respected by people in a congregation for the work that he was doing for them, then they would be the people to encourage him to disregard his alcohol problem and to put himself forward for training.
So, your question is a bit confusing, because it give the impression that he doesn't really have this kind of support. And why is he only worrying about sharing in the Eucharist because he wants to be a vicar? Isn't he participating in it now, as a layperson? How does he manage week by week?
If he's not currently a churchgoing Christian, with an active commitment to a church community, why does he want to be a vicar? I don't understand that.
[ 27. August 2012, 19:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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Ask Pyx_e.
I am neither an Alcoholic nor a Anglican Vicar but I will say two things.
Sober many of the alcoholics I know are very good people. I have seen the care and sharing they do among themselves. When they are seriously drunk I really don't want to know them. I had the job of dealing with police who were dealing with two of them last Friday. Nothing too bad except hassling other diners at the breakfast.
Having talked with a few I know there is a tendency among some of them to use alcohol as a way of avoiding pressure. As an outsider the Anglican ministry does not look to me like a low pressure job.
Jengie
Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on
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I'm only going to weigh in here because it's partly related to my work. Personally I do not believe that alcoholism in the sense that one drink will lead to an uncontrolled relapse is a 'disease' I view it more as a reoccuring pattern of behaviour that is very ofen harmful to the individual and those around them. My work is centred around working with people who misuse substances to help them see that recovery is possible and they can move on with their lives.
I think with all the stuff Jesus said about being here for the sick and for sinners then there is absolutely no reason your brother in law should not try to pursue his goal. I think in many ways his experiences would be a huge asset to him, as you've already indicated. That said, I'd expect him not to be drinking harmfully or dependently.
Because of what I said earlier about my views on what alcholism is I do think it's entirely possible to drink alcohol sensibly after recovery from problem drinking. I probably wouldn't encourage it but the Eucharist isn't social drinking in any sense most people would understand it.
Finally. Yes I would disclose it. It's far, far, far better to be honest than risk it 'coming up'. I just have a strong feeling he'd be better of being up front than trying to hide it.
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
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cross posted with lots of sensible stuff.
Can an alcoholic be a vicar or would the expectation by that they have to totally abstain, and if so for how long?
There are Vicars who are drinking alcoholics, their ministry (and everything else in their life) is at best chaotic and at worst disastrous. Their drinking has developed in ministry. I know of no Priest who was ordained whilst drinking alcoholically, in fact I know of at least 2 who have been withdrawn from training. You describe a high-functioning alcoholic, they always crash.
Abstaining from alcohol does not alleviate alcoholism (it usually makes it worse). Alcohol is a symptom of alcoholism not a cause. So perhaps a better question is “How long should a person be dry and in recovery before approaching as DDO?” My opinion on this would be between 5 and 10 years. My first sponsor in AA would not let any member less than 3 years sober meet his family, too mad, to selfish, to likely to drink and die. 3 years recovery is not a lot.
If someone is a recovering alcoholic, how could they realistically participate in the Eucharist if they have to drink wine?
I have fully participated in the Eucharist as a recovering alcoholic since my confirmation over 20 years ago. You do not as a lay person or when ordained have to drink the wine. I kiss the chalice. I receive fully in one kind (the bread). I am always careful to prepare any serving team I am with and they have unfailingly been helpful with the ablutions. I have a letter from my bishop giving me permission to use non-alcoholic wine/ grape juice which I have used 3 times in 11 years. (the grape juice option, I won’t eat a wine gum)
Would it be wise to disclose the problem to the DDO or BAP if the application got that far?
It would be incredibly dishonest to withhold such information. If your friend considers being dishonest a suitable quality for ordination then let him proceed. I hope (and suspect) he would not make it to ordination before he/it was discovered. If he were to be in a ministerial role while drinking he would hurt so many people and himself. In the end what does he love the most God or drink? (I know the answer to that BTW, how can you serve God and love something else more?) Please make sure he seeks help and recovery first.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by keepbuggeringon:
When he has evening meetings he goes out to them with no problem and if family & friends visit he will abstain entirely or limit his drinking. To a large extent if he had not told his sister and me about his struggling I don't think we would have ever known about it.
This doesn't add up to me. Maintaining one's drinking in such perfect control that one doesn't ever miss an evening meeting or get caught out when family/friends visit doesn't sound like the usual pattern of problem drinking to me. And a bottle of wine is not all that much for a problem drinker to be putting away of an evening.
Which would lead me to suggest perhaps there is molehill rather than a mountain, but the degree of emotional angst that you describe over it suggests otherwise.
It doesn't quite add up, and given the addict's propensity to self-deceive and deceive I would suggest asking a few more questions.
Posted by tomsk (# 15370) on
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I'm not planning ordination but did have a realisation when drinking that my crutch in life was drink not God. One of the problems with alcoholism is that drink is the most important thing in life, and this tends to increase.
Although being a teacher is stressful, it has a clear structure to the working day/year. Drinking can be fitted into this . Busyness can be used to crowd drinking out of parts of life. (This is how my drinking worked, except it worked less well as time wore on).
Alcoholics also tend to have trouble with honesty. Withholding info from DDO would not be a good start.
I think the above would make it tricky.
A recovering alcoholic can do pretty much anything except drink. Certainly be a priest. But it can be risky embarking on big change. I'm not much into sobriety, but think i've worked out that it's a long haul
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 27. August 2012, 20:33: Message edited by: tomsk ]
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by keepbuggeringon:
When he has evening meetings he goes out to them with no problem and if family & friends visit he will abstain entirely or limit his drinking. To a large extent if he had not told his sister and me about his struggling I don't think we would have ever known about it.
This doesn't add up to me. Maintaining one's drinking in such perfect control that one doesn't ever miss an evening meeting or get caught out when family/friends visit doesn't sound like the usual pattern of problem drinking to me.
I agree it doesn't seem to be typical—or even common—but one much loved priest of my acquaintance was such a high-functioning alcoholic for decades. Diocesan committee assignments galore, top-level inter-denominational deliberations, university post, books, speaking engagements. The small, inner-most circle knew, but few others.
Pyx_e is right. Eventually, he crashed. Spectacularly.
Posted by Ancilla (# 11037) on
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Keepbuggeringon – can I ask who has defined his drinking as ‘alcoholism’? I know a number of heavy-drinking ordinands, and just going by your description I wouldn’t say he drinks any more than they do. On the other hand, he clearly feels his drinking is problematic / out of control, which suggests it is not a sustainable situation.
What I would say is, the process of exploration and discernment is often a long one – discerning a vocation to priesthood can be the trigger for a much wider process of self-examination and self-discovery. So there is no reason not to approach someone about it now, even if the first step is working on his drink problem.
quote:
Can prospective ordinand’s ever be really open about their struggles or challenges with the DDO / BAP?
I would say from my own experience – be honest, but don’t be more honest than you’re being asked to be. It sounds like this guy’s struggle with drink is an important part of his story and his faith; if he tries to hide it, it will be obvious and it would mean not being himself. On the other hand, it can be tempting when being interviewed by a priest to treat it as a confessional situation, which is isn’t. I would advise him to answer questions honestly but find someone from someone outside the selection process – a spiritual director or counsellor – to really open up about the ‘guilt and shame’ you mention.
quote:
would God call someone to the priesthood knowing that they were struggling with alcoholism (or any other form of addiction).
Yup. He calls the most unlikely people (hell, he even called me!) It might be a long road and I wouldn’t want to raise his hopes too much - but who knows, perhaps it is precisely the motivation he needs to start moving things in the right direction.
Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on
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And those of us not ordained, the chalice workers in CofE, are often the ones who finish off the wine so that the clergy don't have to drink it all.
And in CofS, I remember that the wine was washed off and poured out into the kirk garden, so that it wasn't all drunk by people who might find it bad for them.
It's not something that people can't be ordained because of alcoholism, because many people who have that are doing good work and being in charge of themselves properly.
And my grandad never took any alcohol as he always said he was in Wesley Methodist church. That stopped him from ever wanting to drink it - he seemed to think it was a rotten thing to drink, and so there was never any in his home.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And those of us not ordained, the chalice workers in CofE, are often the ones who finish off the wine so that the clergy don't have to drink it all.
At a Sunday service, yes, but at a midweek Communion service there may just be the priest and one or two in the congregation.
Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on
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While in graduate school, I worked for an elderly alcoholic rector for two or three years before I ever suspected. If I hadn't lived an hour's drive away, perhaps rumors or evidence would have reached me earlier. One winter night, when leaving the church after working past midnight, I noticed his car in the parking lot with the engine running and he sitting there. When I asked if everything was all right, he replied that he was "just waiting for the evening to cool off a little." I don't think I grasped even then that he was drunk. Primarily worried about asphyxiation, I ran and fetched a parishioner friend close to both of us, who lived just two or three blocks away, and who promptly came to look after him and at least persuade him to wait indoors.
I'd assumed that an alcoholic craved alcohol in his system every waking hour. According to what people eventually told me, this man didn't drink during the day but would regularly get smashed in the evening, to the point where local bars had to ask him to leave.
Many in the parish, including me, loved him dearly and they had patiently tried to dry him out several times. The ultimate denouement was not pretty the way it was carried out, but I wouldn't doubt that something finally had to be done. The worship was beautifully Anglo-Catholic, but the place seemed to lack direction, probably because of lack of verve and leadership at the top.
Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And those of us not ordained, the chalice workers in CofE, are often the ones who finish off the wine so that the clergy don't have to drink it all.
At a Sunday service, yes, but at a midweek Communion service there may just be the priest and one or two in the congregation.
Most priests in my experience use a tiny portion of wine for low masses — the chalice is often only 10% full to start with, and that's with wine that's been diluted with water.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by keepbuggeringon:
When he has evening meetings he goes out to them with no problem and if family & friends visit he will abstain entirely or limit his drinking. To a large extent if he had not told his sister and me about his struggling I don't think we would have ever known about it.
This doesn't add up to me. Maintaining one's drinking in such perfect control that one doesn't ever miss an evening meeting or get caught out when family/friends visit doesn't sound like the usual pattern of problem drinking to me. And a bottle of wine is not all that much for a problem drinker to be putting away of an evening.
Which would lead me to suggest perhaps there is molehill rather than a mountain, but the degree of emotional angst that you describe over it suggests otherwise.
It doesn't quite add up, and given the addict's propensity to self-deceive and deceive I would suggest asking a few more questions.
No indeed, it is entirely possible to be so high functioning for years that nobody recognizes it. My father was in end stage alcoholism (aka virtually dead) before it became widely apparent. But the problem had been serious for thirty years by then.
Some people can hide it far better thanyou might imagine. If he says he has a ptoblem, believe him.
Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on
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I come from a family of alcoholics, and know plenty about the condition. If a person says they have a drinking problem, take them at their word.
This man may be high-functioning NOW. But let's look at the long-term. Addictions are progressive. As his condition gets worse (and believe me, it will) this fellow's performance as a vicar will deteriorate.
Many recovering alcoholics tell me that they needed a "push" to get them into treatment. If this candidate is told he HAS TO go into rehab and stay sober as a condition for even being considered a vicar, then maybe he'll do it, and will thank you later.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
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Is it just a coincidence that this thread should start when this news item flashed across the magical interweb?
Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on
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Keepbuggeriningon - I can't add much to the sensible advice already here, except to say that your friend not disclosing his condition would be the worst thing that he could do. It sounds like he has talent that the church could use in ministry, but to do that he needs support, not secrets.
A priest in a neighbouring parish when I was growing up was an alcoholic, his alcoholism reached the point where he was no longer able to run his parish effectively. The response, as it so often was at the time, was a cover-up. This man sadly died as a result of his alcoholism, it had destroyed him and his poor wife. This was a tragedy, he was a gifted teacher and preacher, and a fine musician, he had so much to offer for God's work. The real tragedy was that if he had been offered help, instead of a bishoply cover-up, he might have recovered and continued with that work.
Be honest, and I pray that your friend will still find a way to exercise his talent for ministry.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If he says he has a ptoblem, believe him.
The thing I am sceptical about is that his problem drinking has so little effect on anyone else or the rest of his life. I think it is a common fallacy of alcoholics to believe that their drinking is having little impact on anyone or anything around them, when in fact it is.
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
but one much loved priest of my acquaintance was such a high-functioning alcoholic for decades. Diocesan committee assignments galore, top-level inter-denominational deliberations, university post, books, speaking engagements. The small, inner-most circle knew, but few others.
I know of a similar situation in a different profession, but the inner-most circle who knew were doing a lot of covering and supporting. They were at the least very inconvenienced and at worst used.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Originally posted by mdijon
quote:
doing a lot of covering and supporting.
I knew a parish with an alcoholic minister. He was fairly close to retirement age, so I suspect he was being "managed" until he could retire. He had lost his driving license through drink-driving, and my grandfather was on a rota to drive him to his regular pastoral visit to a geriatric hospital. Presumably unbeknown to the minister, the rota drivers on arrival had to confirm to a ward sister that they hadn't smelled alcohol on his breath. For the regular rota drivers, this was done by the ward sister raising her eyebrows and the driver either nodding or shaking their head, with the minister apparently oblivious.
I suspect that many, many people were doing little bits of covering and supporting like this.
Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on
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Out here in rural areas we often find alcoholic clergy making what is sometimes called a 'geographical' cure under the impression that if they are far away from the temptations of the city and bars, the pub down the road etc, they won't drink. In small communities the drinking is often an 'open secret' but there may be several church workers or parishioners determined to help keep the alcoholic's worsening situation hidden because they believe this is 'helping' him and protecting the good name of the church.
Active alcoholics have a very tenuous grasp of how their drinking affects others and are often in what is called denial, hoping that they can regain control of the drinking. Some chronic alcoholics live in a kind of cognitive fog, moving from drunkenness to hangovers to drinking again each day with little awareness of what is happening to them. Others may rely on binge drinking episodes and seem clear-headed enough between bouts of drinking unless the constant inward obsession and struggle is understood. It isn't as simple as just being dishonest, many active alcoholics have no idea how abnormal their drinking is because it feels to them as if it is under control or even getting better. A great deal of energy goes into trying to control others' perceptions of their drinking in order to reassure others or conceal crises from co-workers or family. This results in a pattern of evasive or secretive behaviour and the development of an 'as-if' personality in everyday life. These cognitive distortions take a long time to alter once the alcoholic has sobered up.
The impression given by active alcoholics in ministry (as described by the OP) is often that of the 'wounded healer'. This is a hard one to address because in my experience it arises from the alcoholic's need to over-compensate for the secret drinking and to somehow 'use' that experience of fraughtness, guilt, remorse, powerlessness etc as a force for good in empathising with others.
If the alcoholic is in recovery, this experiential empathy may have a place in ministry but while the alcoholic is still drinking, the cycles of crisis and caretaking are often just another way of allowing the alcoholic to caretake others while persisting in chronic lack of self-care.
[ 28. August 2012, 08:30: Message edited by: Mary LA ]
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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From the way you've described it, it sounds like the drinking comes about as a result of other underlying issues like loneliness. I would suggest that it is those underlying issues that need to be addressed (counselling or the like), rather than just the drinking. ISTM that this is especially true before starting something like training for ordination.
/unsollicited advice over the internet
Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
From the way you've described it, it sounds like the drinking comes about as a result of other underlying issues like loneliness. I would suggest that it is those underlying issues that need to be addressed (counselling or the like), rather than just the drinking. ISTM that this is especially true before starting something like training for ordination.
/unsollicited advice over the internet
Those issues need to be addressed, but the alcoholic first and foremost needs to acknowledge they have a drinking problem. As long as that truth is not acknowledged by the alcoholic, trying to address the other issues will make no difference.
Mary LA's description of the church's trying to cover for the alcoholic clergy and keeping secrets is the same as the family dynamic when there is an alcoholic family member. I grew up with an alcoholic parent. As long as they functioned outside the home in their job and was thought of as a valued member of the community there was a denial of alcoholism and no one knew what their behavior was outside the home and the rest of us certainly weren't giving away the secret.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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The (sometimes spoken, sometimes not) rule about alcoholism is "don't talk about it." So even if people in your mutual circle of friends are apparently unaffected, that in itself means nothing. My mother still automatically shushes me to this day if I happen to mention my father's problem when anyone else is within eyeshot, no matter how quietly I am speaking and how unlikely it is that anyone can overhear. And the man has been dead for ten years, and left the family almost thirty years before that. I mean, what harm can my speaking do? It's a pernicious habit, a conspiracy of silence.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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I have known 4 alcoholic vicars over the years. All were excellent vicars.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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I don't understand all the talk of 'hiding' a vicar's alcoholism. I worked at a CofE school where the vicar was alcoholic. He couldn't hide it, you could smell the gin at 9 O'Clock assemblies. It didn't seem to make him any worse a vicar as far as I could see. The worst thing he did was to drink and drive - a lot.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I have known 4 alcoholic vicars over the years. All were excellent vicars.
Meaning what exactly?
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
It didn't seem to make him any worse a vicar as far as I could see. The worst thing he did was to drink and drive - a lot.
Which is a pretty bad thing in my estimation. The poor man needed help.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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If he caused serious injury driving while drunk I'd consider him a worse vicar for it.
Also it seems to me that if you are too impaired to drive legally (for fear of injury) then you are in too impaired to minister to the bereaved and others in spiritual need.
I would not be all that impressed to turn up to a counselling session to find my counsellor drunk.
Posted by keepbuggeringon (# 8678) on
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Thanks for the replies to my OP.
Perhaps I am being innocent here, but my brother-in-law clearly functions already in a very stressful job and is highly valued by his employer, colleagues and children alike. He does seem to have the ability to go days without drinking but only if he takes tablets called anti-abuse (which makes him sick if he has any kind of alcohol).
I asked him how much he drinks and it is usually a bottle of wine and half a bottle of scotch a night (on the evenings that he drinks). He is the one who calls himself an alcoholic and I think the root cause of his drinking is linked to lonliness and issues around loss. He does seem to have a remarkable insight into the effects that his drinking has on him. When he talks about wanting to be ordained he is very much of the view that he would not wish to hurt anyone and if this meant his withdrawing from the discernment process he would rather do that than cause any difficulties for others.
The only post I would wish to challenge is the one where someone talked about how would my brother-in-law talk about Christ's freedom when he is not free in himself from alcohol. Whilst understanding the basic point, I do not know anyone who can say that they are fully free in all areas of their lives. Instead, I think we all have our well bits and our ill bits and those folk who I think make the best priests are those who have been deeply wounded and struggle with some aspect of themselves. Surely all of us have chapters of our lives that we might prefer went unread but that still shouldn't stop us from aspiring to live freely before God whether priest or otherwise.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by keepbuggeringon:
usually a bottle of wine and half a bottle of scotch a night
I'd read "/" as "or" in the OP. I think "and" makes the intake rather more substantial and more firmly into problem drinking territory in my book.
You say he has insight into the effects, but if he has children (+/- wife?/your sister?) it is hard to imagine that that intake does not ever have an impact on them. Likewise it is hard to imagine he does not ever have a slow morning after, during which colleagues at work might find things a bit harder going than usual.
In fact if one tucked away a bottle of wine (9 units) and half a bottle of scotch (say 10 units or more) then he would still be drunk in the morning. And unsafe to drive.
He would need to be reasonably tolerant of alcohol to cope with that. Which would suggest rather more sustained drinking than an occasional evening.
I'm not trying to pick hole simply for the sake of it, my point is that I suspect there are a group of hurt people around this man, in family life and in work, who he takes advantage of in order to continue indulging his addiction. I suspect they would weep to hear that his degree of self-delusion allows him to ponder whether his drinking might preclude ordination or not.
I'm guessing, of course, and don't know him, you, or the issues of loss involved, but it wouldn't be an unusual scenario.
Posted by Tyler Durden (# 2996) on
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I haven't read the whole thread, only the first post but I'm answering cos I have 1st hand experience, being a vicar who is also a recovering/ex alcoholic...
I was 13 years sober when I first went to see the DDO (24 years sober now) and I think I told him about my previous drinking - and drug taking and related behaviours (ie criminality and 'occultism', of a very dabbly, teenage nature) and the childhood sexual abuse that had triggered/caused most of this behaviour - in our first session together! Ironically, he was more concerned about the fact that I'd been a Pentecostal for post of the last 10 years!!!
But it seemed obvious I needed to be totally honest (even if it meant not getting further) and a) I was convinced that this was what God wanted and it would be ok (and clearly it was) and b) for me, these were qualifications for the job not bars from it: I have a (pretty much) none-more-impressive testimony (for those who are impressed by sex and drugs and rock n roll type testimonies ie lots of evangelicals ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
)
Obviously it's slightly different for your friend since he is still drinking and I'm not sure if I would have been honest then or what the reaction would (or should) be. Having said that, 2 of my best vicar mates drink quite a lot and are not averse to getting drunk. In one of those cases, I would say it isn't a problem in his life and ministry (any more than the fact that I eat too much chocolate is); the other, like your mate accepts he has a problem but it's not that bad and in fact he's (pretty much) been on the wagon for several months now...
The bottom line: if he thinks God is calling him to ordained ministry, he should go for it (and I'd be v happy to talk to him so pm me if you want my details) And he should go and see his DDO and be as honest as seems prudent and of course, ideally, he would stop drinking/find recovery...
But God's grace and call are bigger than our weaknesses or as some people call it, sin
Finally, wrt to communion wine: when I was first going through the selection process, I assumed I would have to drink communion wine as a priest/that it would be madness to be a priest who couldn't but I felt that it would be okay for me to have communion wine anyway because a) it was God who called me into AA and now he was calling me on; b) when I drink the wine, it's no longer alcohol but the blood of Christ - and even if you don't take that view, I know I'm not drinking it in order to consume alcohol and, for me, sobriety is about intention (ie if I pick up the wrong glass by accident at a party and take a huge slug of booze, that is not a relapse) and c) the ammount involved in communion wine is miniscule anyway - except of course in consuming all the leftovers but clearly I get someone else to do that for me and in fact by the time I got ordained I'd decided I would never consume any communion wine and I always use non-alcoholic stuff when I can and none of my congregations have ever had a problem with that.
So, bit of a braindump but I hope it all helps...
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
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quote:
Originally posted by keepbuggeringon:
Perhaps I am being innocent here, but my brother-in-law clearly functions already in a very stressful job and is highly valued by his employer, colleagues and children alike. He does seem to have the ability to go days without drinking but only if he takes tablets called anti-abuse (which makes him sick if he has any kind of alcohol).
Apart from all the excellent comments already made on this thread, I'd like to throw in this....
I think that there is a significant difference between being a parish priest and other highly stressful occupations. Take teaching as an example; unless you're way out of control, you are unlikely to drink through the day in school. OK - someone may have a drink at breakfast and then go to the pub at lunchtime, but I've not been aware of alcoholic teachers who drank much during classes.
Now consider a parish priest, who will be spending a goodly amount of time alone, probably at home or in the church office. The opportunities to have a drink during the day are much greater. Goodness knows - I'm not an alcoholic and I don't think I drink that much (a pint or two a week and an occasional glass of wine) - but even I have sometimes been tempted to down a glass of rum or gin to ease the way through a tough morning. (I've never actually done it, though.)
I would endorse the view that your brother-in-law should be off booze completely for at least three years before seriously considering ordination. That doesn't mean that he cannot do anything now to prepare the way - he can focus on reading and gaining a wider experience of church life. But addressing the drink problem is foremost.
Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Apart from all the excellent comments already made on this thread, I'd like to throw in this....
I think that there is a significant difference between being a parish priest and other highly stressful occupations. Take teaching as an example; unless you're way out of control, you are unlikely to drink through the day in school. OK - someone may have a drink at breakfast and then go to the pub at lunchtime, but I've not been aware of alcoholic teachers who drank much during classes.
Now consider a parish priest, who will be spending a goodly amount of time alone, probably at home or in the church office. The opportunities to have a drink during the day are much greater. Goodness knows - I'm not an alcoholic and I don't think I drink that much (a pint or two a week and an occasional glass of wine) - but even I have sometimes been tempted to down a glass of rum or gin to ease the way through a tough morning. (I've never actually done it, though.)
You're forgetting the liquid lunch, or one trick I observed from colleagues who managed to do a decent job despite trips to the bathroom for an airline bottle of their alcohol of choice or to their car for the big bottle during "breaks" to get them through til their drinks at lunch. Many alcoholics function very well in their jobs and find means of getting their alcohol during the day if they find themselves needing it, no matter what job they have. For my father it was at night and on weekends that he got drunk and he only allowed himself one drink during lunch. It wasn't being drunk at work that in the end cost him his job. He was forced into early retirement due to the health problems that alcohol abuse over extended periods of time inevitably cause.
I forgot to mention one other tendency about alcoholics with respect to how they view their own behavior. They quite often make up their own version of events and often talk themselves into a firm belief their version of things is the true one and when the bill comes due on behaviors caused by that do occur outside the home caused by alcohol, it's always someone else's fault.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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Being alcoholic does not always mean you need to drink all the time. There are the sort who can remain sober for a long time but if EVER drink passes their lips they can't control it and it escalates very quickly indeed.
Being an alcoholic means you are unable to control your drinking for some reason.
Jengie
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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There's a lot of good sense and good advice being shared here.
There's every likelihood of drinking coming to light in Ministry in some way or another, so it's useless to try and hide it upfront at DDO level. At best it will mean that people think they can't trsut you, at worse it can lead to removal without help.
In the Baptist denomination, with our temperance ancestry, alcoholics amongst ordained ministers are likely to be treated fairly harshly. Drunk in charge opens the way to accusations of conduct unbecoming .... and we possibly have more sole workers than most (few teams), so the possibilities may be greater. Having said that I know of only one baptist minister who doesn't drink alcohol so even our attitudes are changing. (Even I (EM) teetotal for a few years can no longer claim the same).
I'm sure that recoverig alcoholism is no bar to training but active alcoholism? I don't think so from the BUGB's POV until a suitable period of recovery was in place (I'd guess about 3 to 5 years if it's the same as other "issues").
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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there's also the stress caused by trying to hide something major from the relevant authorities over a long period of time. Mr. Lamb has a son from his unmarried prodigal son Air Force days. When we decided on seminary, the first item on the communication agenda had to do with this fact. Not because it was widely known, or had become a problem, or whatever, but simply because we could foresee that if we DIDN'T bring up the subject, at some point in the ministry (maybe years later) some arsehole would discover the fact and make a blackmailing nuisance of himself. Pastors are under near constant spiritual attack, even more than the average Christian. So your friend owes it to himself not to give the devil an easy handle to use against him.
Nothing is more frustrating to an arsehole than to call up the governing authorities to tattle with "Did you know...?" and receive a bored reply of "Yes, we've known that any time these twenty years. And your point was?"
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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A friend’s ex-husband refused to see that he was an alcoholic. He was in a job that needed all his concentration, so he never drank during the week, indeed didn't keep alcohol in the house.
BUT come Friday night he was would shop on the way home and buy a tray of strong beer and not stop until he had drunk it all. It played havoc with family life as you can imagine.
His colleagues and friends didn't believe he had a problem either; after all he was sober all week, so he couldn't have a problem could he?
Alcoholics all have their own pattern of drinking; they will not necessarily drink every day or not be able to get through the day without a drink.
From what I know about the selection process - having had a problem might not be an issue, they will want to no how you dealt with it and how you are now. A curate we once had was quite open about a nervous breakdown and self harming in the past, but they got through selection by showing how they understood the past and how they dealt with things now.
Still having the problem might be an issue with selection, not telling them about it would be a huge problem if it came up in any of the interviews or checks.
[ 29. August 2012, 12:04: Message edited by: Zacchaeus ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I have known 4 alcoholic vicars over the years. All were excellent vicars.
Meaning what exactly?
What it says.
They were outstanding. Maybe the alcoholism was their 'thorn in the flesh' that made them 'wounded healers'.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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Sober alcoholics or still drinking alcoholics? If still drinking pattern of drinking was what? And did drinking ever interfere with social or work events? Outstanding vicars based on what vantage point? Coping strategies being what?
There's a lot you didn't say.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Take teaching as an example; unless you're way out of control, you are unlikely to drink through the day in school. OK - someone may have a drink at breakfast and then go to the pub at lunchtime, but I've not been aware of alcoholic teachers who drank much during classes.
As a union rep., i have known to teachers who drank through the day - 'just popping into the stock cupboard.'
Both were very good teachers originally but, as the problem became worse, they became incompetent and my job was to make sure they got the appropriate support through the disciplinary process.
One was eventually sacked. The other became....... as OFSTED inspector.
When I was a pupil, we had a maths master who had a hip flask inside his gown - every time he wrote something on the blackboard, he took a swig. he was a nightmare if you ad a lesson with him before morning break, because he was hungover and grumpy. once the alcohol started up afresh, he because quiet amiable. I did well in maths.
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
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An addict will service their addiction as a priority to any other responsibilities. It goes without saying therefore that they cannot be trusted. That is very hard for the people who have no option but to depend on them.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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Meh. That "wounded healer" thing has a tendency to sound a bit suspect to me. Given the choice, I think I'd prefer a healed healer...
Like mdijon says, whether the person is still drinking, and especially whether they're in denial about the problem, makes a massive difference.
Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on
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I may be wrong but I think that at some stage in the selection process the candidate has to provide medical reports.
If he is or has ever been on prescribed medication for alcoholism then I think there will be a lot of heavy questioning as to why he didn't disclose this earlier. I think antabuse is a prescription only medication.
Other than this my main difficulty with the questions in the OP is why your partners brother is discussing this with you and expecting you to have the answers rather than going, for example, to an Anglican priest, maybe in a religious community a long way from home and discussing it under the confidentiality of the spiritual direction process.
Given that he has discussed it with you I am also wondering why you felt the best way to help was by posting on a public discussion board.
People who are close to drinking alcoholics can get very caught up in the alcoholics illness and become as sick as the alcoholic. This will often manifest itself in efforts to sort out all the alcoholics problems. There is often a loss of a proper sense of boundaries.
My main advice to you (if you are not the alcoholic posting on a 'my friend has a problem' basis) is for you to start attending Al-Anon Family Group meetings, and buy and read as much of their literature as you can. You can buy it online.
You really can't be much help to the alcoholic, but you can find your own peace of mind in all this, which is likely to come by detaching with love from your partner's brothers problems.
I'm also wondering what your partner thinks about it all including your own involvement.
I'm not expecting you to answer all these questions. They are rhetorical, but this is what has been in my mind since you opened the thread and it might help if you considered them in the privacy of your own thoughts.
If you are the alcoholic then you will probably have more chance of getting ordained if you first deal with your alcoholism and can show a strong and sustained recovery over a considerable period of time, as Pyx_e suggested.
The advice in AA is not to enter any significant relationship for at least the first year of sobriety. I think this would apply to such a significant relationship as ordination.
If you do manage to get ordained without recovery then I agree with everyone else, it will end in disaster. Your life will probably be a disaster anyway if you carry on drinking, but at least the Church will be spared having to deal with the consequences of ordaining you.
I hope you and all those involved find recovery and peace.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Meh. That "wounded healer" thing has a tendency to sound a bit suspect to me. Given the choice, I think I'd prefer a healed healer...
Given the choice, maybe. My predecessor in one parish was both an alcoholic and a depressive (I suspect the one led to the other, or vice versa). He was virtually out of action for the year or so before he retired. But the parishioners were totally loyal to him, and he was very much revered as a good and holy priest. 'Wounded healer' he certainly was.
I don't know if any of us could confidently proclaim we were totally healed, of whatever sin or malfunction might impede our ministry. While alcoholics are reputedly quite liable to deceive themselves about their illness, so are the rest of us in different ways. Self-awareness is essential.
Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on
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Can a vicar not be an alcoholic?!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Meh. That "wounded healer" thing has a tendency to sound a bit suspect to me. Given the choice, I think I'd prefer a healed healer...
Then Jesus probably has little to offer you.
[ 29. August 2012, 16:31: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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Jesus was an alcoholic? Who knew? This must be in that gospel by Thomas that the church supressed.
If I had a choice between being counselled by no-one and being counselled by someone who might be drunk, severely hung-over, and most interested in ending the session rapidly so as to get another drink sooner then I might opt for no-one.
Stuff about wounded healers wouldn't help.
On the other hand, if I was to be counselled by someone who'd previously struggled with drink, was now abstinent, albeit with very occasional lapses, then I expect that their life experience would make them a better counsellor.
It all needs qualifying. But throwaway comments comparing them to Jesus are neither here nor there.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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Not a throwaway comment at all. Have you read Henri Nowen? T. S. Eliott?
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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Yes it was and yes I have.
Have you read Memoirs of an addicted brain by Lewis? Or any of Wolfgang Sommer's work in Neurobiology? Or any of the recent reviews on the sociology of alcohol abuse? Perhaps you've dipped into some of the modern work on neurotransmitters and cognition, and had a chance to consider that in the context of modern context of work on consciousness and insight? Perhaps you've also read Dostoyevsky's classic descriptions of delerium tremens? And the action of alcohol on neural membranes, contasting their purported specific receptors, including GABA receptors, is quite relevant and fascinating in this context.
Do get back to me when you're on the same level.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Jesus was an alcoholic? Who knew? ....
On the other hand, if I was to be counselled by someone who'd previously struggled with drink, was now abstinent, albeit with very occasional lapses, then I expect that their life experience would make them a better counsellor.
On the first point, you are taking woundedness too literally (0n the alcoholic issue, though he was accused of being a 'winebibber') - or even not literally enough. 1 peter says 'by his wounds we are healed.'
On the second point, yes i agree, that is what i was trying to say - those wounds are glorified, yet still visible post-resurrection.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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Thank you for your reply, Leo.
Perhaps the question isn't of taking woundedness more or less literally, but of the impact the woundedness has on those ministered too.
A wounded healer who has a functional struggle with addiction in his/her life may well be manifesting Christ and his wounds.
A wounded healer who has a dysfunctional losing struggle with addiction such that they turn up boozy and incoherent (or barely sober but thinking still of the next drink) is not.
Too continue the metaphor - if not bound and ministered to themselves, then the wounded healer might do too much bleeding over their flock to effect any healing. And this might be really quite unpleasant for all if they lack insight, as many addicts do when they start out.
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on
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I've known several addicted clergy: alcohol, drugs, porn, gambling. Most are either in denial or completely eating them up with guilt. Those who emerge do so through intensive treatment.
A couple of alcoholic friends merely make the motions of intincting over the chalice (though I wish they didn't do that--it encourages that disgusting habit). With therapy and an encouraging family, congregation and bishop the alcoholic or otherwise addicted priest can come through and be of GREAT service again.
Posted by Solly (# 11919) on
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He may be using ordination as a cure as in "If I become a priest I know I won't want to drink any more". Far better to get help to get off the stuff and see whether with the clearer insight of sobriety, ordination is what he really wants. Much of what he does now - his understanding, his empathy etc is rooted in guilt. This doesn't mean he will lose all of his lovely personality traits if he stops drinking but at least his judgment will not be impaired. He should not go for ordination while he is an active alcoholic.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
Much of what he does now - his understanding, his empathy etc is rooted in guilt.
Indeed. Rooted in guilt, poor self-esteem, and/or denial and displacement.
Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on
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I believe the answer would depend on how well the vicar is coping with his/her addiction.
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
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Variation on the opener in view of the wounded healer conversation -
Can a depressive be a priest?
Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Variation on the opener in view of the wounded healer conversation -
Can a depressive be a priest?
It was an open secret in the Baptist church in which I grew up that a well-loved and dynamic minister (in the Welsh revival tradition) in the 1920s committed suicide. His grandson, who was s few years older than my father, also committed suicide some 30 years ago, which leads me to believe that whatever the minister had was hereditary, possibly an extreme form of bipolar disorder?
Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't understand all the talk of 'hiding' a vicar's alcoholism. I worked at a CofE school where the vicar was alcoholic. He couldn't hide it, you could smell the gin at 9 O'Clock assemblies. It didn't seem to make him any worse a vicar as far as I could see. The worst thing he did was to drink and drive - a lot.
Those of us who have been around alcoholics know it takes many forms.
The "Smells like GIN at 9 am" is one form, but there are many, many others. Many of them are able to function well, or at least adequately, in society. Many of the high-functioning ones don't present as "problems" to a lot of people. But they have a problem.
One drinking alcoholic I know thinks she doesn't have a problem because she "only drinks the good stuff", was able to hold down a job long term (she *did* have a "can't be fired" position), and appears to have avoided DUI problems. In her eyes, since she's not living on skid row, she can't be an alcoholic. But she's definitely got a problem. It's hidden to a lot of people, but obvious to those of us that she takes it out on. (She's a binger, much like what the OP's BIL sounds like.)
I have to agree with the general advice here: get help, then explore the idea of ordained ministry once the new reality has settled in for a bit, with full disclosure. Because if the underlying problem isn't dealt with, something's going to give, it absolutely won't be pretty when it does, and a lot of people will get hurt.
I would write a letter of concern to the relevant authorities if I were reasonably sure that the applicant would not disclose. Especially if the drinking was still active. I am on a parish board that approves applicants at various stages in the process and would definitely be a no vote (and try to persuade others to the same) if the basic issue was not being worked on. I actually still regret not writing such a letter about a dry-drunk alcoholic and ACOA former friend of mine who had great personal gifts and what I believe was a genuine call but who was completely impossible when any conflict arose - when the chips were down, she reverted to the style of her fucked up family. She got ordained and was assigned to parish ministry with what I considered to be predictable results. I know more now than I did then.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Variation on the opener in view of the wounded healer conversation -
Can a depressive be a priest?
Do you have any idea how many are? My experience would lead to me putting it fairly close to 50%.
Jengie
Posted by Haydee (# 14734) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Variation on the opener in view of the wounded healer conversation -
Can a depressive be a priest?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'a depressive'. Apparently 1 in 4 people in the UK will have at least 1 episode of depresssion in their lives, but that doesn't mean it will recur. For those with recurring depression then surely the issue is whether they are self-aware and managing their condition - as it would be for someone with diabetes, or was HIV+, or, or, or. Could someone in a wheelchair be a good vicar as most of the congregation don't have wheelchair accessible homes? Someone who used to be violent to their spouse?
We are all imperfect. The question is, I would have thought, is this candidate for ordination aware of their imperfections, doing what they can to manage them, and has thought of how these would affect their ministry and how any negative impacts could be minimised.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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leo, I shan't be calling you to hell, because I can't be bothered.
But hell is nonetheless the only place I could give your sanctimony the treatment it deserves and not get in trouble with our hostly overlords.
[ 30. August 2012, 09:26: Message edited by: la vie en rouge ]
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
For those with recurring depression then surely the issue is whether they are self-aware and managing their condition -....
snip
We are all imperfect. The question is, I would have thought, is this candidate for ordination aware of their imperfections, doing what they can to manage them, and has thought of how these would affect their ministry and how any negative impacts could be minimised. [/QB]
That was the point I was hoping to draw out, it isn't that all wounds are fully healed but as long as we are aware of our frailties and what we need in order to care for ourselves so we remain able to serve others whatever our role in life is.
I write as someone who lives with depression and is a church minister, whilst managed I still have some days when I know I don't have the emotional reserve to 'be there' for others. If there is a fixed point in the diary or an urgent call I will be there, but where I have a choice to call today or tomorrow I will on those days stay in and deal with admin or service prep etc.
I recognise that on those occasions I will not be able to offer the best I can to a person (and believe that a postponed visit is less of an issue than to turn up but be emotionally absent)and I may make myself worse and so be unavailable for longer.
If days like that are too frequent I get myself to the doctor for a review, or look at the triggers and if anything can be reduced.
As part of that I take note of habits - including when I have a drink. I am currently abstaining because over a stressful summer I began to worry that a pattern could emerge and I was drinking more than I should. Did that amount to borderline alcoholism? I don't think so, yet it was enough to make me want to challenge my behaviour (as with the comfort eating of the same stress time).
Without comment on the Op case I think it is possible to have a concern about your own behaviour at a level that is not necessarily a concern to others around you.
Sometimes a symptom of being self aware is to be too focussed on evaluating our actions and motives, and that can become a vulnerablity in itself. At other times it is a wise assessment and call to action.
Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on
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I'd like to pick up on what mdijon mentioned because it may help those of us involved in community support and formal or informal counseling to understand the struggling alcoholic better, if we look at recent discoveries and research into the neurobiology of alcohol dependence. There is a great deal of accessible literature available on the Internet and this perspective often takes the emphasis off emotionally charged or moralizing approaches to someone drinking excessively and possibly alcohol-dependent.
Sometimes the length of time that the person has been drinking to excess matters more than the actual quantity taken each night (or morning).
This is in part because chronic long-term exposure to alcohol induces changes in the neural circuits that control motivational processes including arousal, reward, and stress. These changes affect systems utilizing the signaling molecules dopamine, opioid peptides, γ-aminobutyric acid, glutamate, and serotonin, as well as those systems modulating the brain’s stress response. These neuro-adaptations of chronic alcoholism produce changes in sensitivity to alcohol’s effects following repeated exposure (including desensitization and tolerance) and a withdrawal state following discontinuation of alcohol use.
This withdrawal state was initially thought to be brief – once the alcoholic had slept it off, the problem was over. Now there is research done into PAWS or 'post acute withdrawal syndrome', a protracted and unstable period of adjustment and heightened stress following the cessation of drinking. Responses to arousal, reward and stress have been damaged or harmed or limited and by that we are talking about the ability to feel pleasure, to respond appropriately to workplace tensions, to enjoy treats or interactions with family, to sustain any steady attitude of faith. Those in early sobriety often talk about feeling numbed or deadened – or going up and down like a yo-yo on an emotional rollercoaster.
Those living with alcoholics in early recovery often think of depression as recovery’s dirty little secret and some of the ‘mood slump’ that takes place in the first 18 months after the alcoholic stops drinking may be due to slow and painful withdrawal symptoms. Sadly, chronic alcohol exposure also results in persistent neural deficits, some of which may only fully recover following extended periods of abstinence. Consistency and self-regulation of moods is hard for those in the first years of recovery – not because they have associated affective disorders (bipolar or schizo-affective disorders) but because of these neural deficits.
Discernment of any vocation to ministry should really only begin after some years of sober living and adjustment.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
leo, I shan't be calling you to hell, because I can't be bothered.
But hell is nonetheless the only place I could give your sanctimony the treatment it deserves and not get in trouble with our hostly overlords.
If talk about the wounds of Christ are 'sanctimony', then even the most liberal of Christians seem to be condemned. The more evangelical ones will talk freely of healing.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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I think it was what I charitably called a throwaway line about Jesus having little to offer her that did it, rather than discussing the wounds of Christ per se.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think it was what I charitably called a throwaway line about Jesus having little to offer her that did it, rather than discussing the wounds of Christ per se.
OK - so I will unpack it slightly.
If she was saying that someone who was wounded would not be a good pastor, then she would not want Jesus as a pastor, since he was an abject failure in the terms of this world. he couldn't keep his inner circle loyal to him, he went out of his way to attack respectable leaders, whether political or religious. He could probably have avoided his own execution but he just wouldn't shut up or try to fit in with everyone else.
Posted by chive (# 208) on
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That's a very strange concept of the Son of God and saviour of the world. And utterly irrelevant to the discussion in question. So therefore fits accurately into the world of leogisms. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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Was the Son of God not also a human being?
Was he not crucified?
Was he not tempted?
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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quote:
Originally posted by chive:
That's a very strange concept of the Son of God and saviour of the world.
I thought it was very apt.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If she was saying that someone who was wounded would not be a good pastor, then she would not want Jesus as a pastor, since he was an abject failure in the terms of this world. he couldn't keep his inner circle loyal to him, he went out of his way to attack respectable leaders, whether political or religious. He could probably have avoided his own execution but he just wouldn't shut up or try to fit in with everyone else.
Although I disagree with the idea that "wounded" is one box, and in context I think it is obvious that la vie was not referring to that sort of "wounded", but rather to the active alcoholic, nevertheless the way you express it here comes across as a reasonable argument to me. I would argue, but not feel hurt. On the other hand;
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Then Jesus probably has little to offer you.
as a one-liner comes across rather sanctimoniously, and is potentially quite hurtful.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
A one-liner in the context of quitge a lot of discussion of wounds.
The trouble with bulletin boards is that people don't read everything in a thread, myself included.
Maybe we need to, if feeling offended, read a bit further before making snap judgements - applies to both of us, I think.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A one-liner in the context of quitge a lot of discussion of wounds.
Your post was a one-liner.
All of those words in other posts might justify the intellectual content of the one-liner in your mind, but none of them will render your post inoffensive when read by the recipient.
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
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I call "bullshit." The tradition of wounded healer is known and accepted but describing a practicing alcoholic thus is puerile. Self-harming healer maybe?
Fly Safe, Pyx_e.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
:
I think describing an abstinent and sober alcoholic priest as a wounded healer is justifiable (if a little OTT for my money). As I said above, a still-drinking alcoholic priest is more like a bleeding-all-over-you healer.
[ 30. August 2012, 16:01: Message edited by: mdijon ]
Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on
:
I am genuinely touched with the frankness and honesty with which Pyx_e and Avila discussed their problems with alcoholism and depression and the way it affected their ministry.
Never having put myself forward for a clerical career I can only see the difficulties from the outside. As a consumer of clerical services I would have no problem with a cleric who had an addiction problem which was under control and did not adversely affect his/her ministry. I would think someone who continually struggled successfully with this problem might be extremely effective as a mentor to people who may have similar problems. Ditto someone who copes with their mental illness.
The traditional Christian belief was that this life was a pilgrimage and a test and that real happiness and fulfilment were only possible in the afterlife. In an imperfect world we cannot expect perfect people. I would be very wary of a potential ordinand who supposedly had no problems or imperfections. Most of us have a fairly large Shadow side and those who don't realise that can really come to grief.
Christ was a healer to a wounded, bleeding world. I am not sure most clerics are called upon to be miraculous healers in the sense he was. Their healing would be more of the metaphorical sort connected with their preaching and sacramental ministry. Perhaps the phrase "wounded healer" has become a cliché and needs to be discarded?
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think describing an abstinent and sober alcoholic priest as a wounded healer is justifiable (if a little OTT for my money). As I said above, a still-drinking alcoholic priest is more like a bleeding-all-over-you healer.
Agree. However, as far as I understand it, there is no such thing as a 'recovered alcoholic', only a 'recovering alcoholic.' I think that's why 12 Step programmes speak of one day at a time.
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
:
As in all things, we are either waltzing into satan's arms or God's. It is not about where you are but the direction of travel.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
[ 31. August 2012, 12:46: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think describing an abstinent and sober alcoholic priest as a wounded healer is justifiable (if a little OTT for my money). As I said above, a still-drinking alcoholic priest is more like a bleeding-all-over-you healer.
Or even, sadly, a wounded wounder. Not pretty.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
:
In which case it may be hard to know if you are in for a church service or the scene from a vampire festival in an abattoir over parish communion. It always was a bloody business, being a priest, and doing away with animal sacrifice doesn't seem even half-way there.
Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on
:
I don't know enough about the subject to know whether or not everyone with an addiction can be said to have an addictive personality. It's probably not everyone but those who do may substitute one addiction for another 'safer' addiction if alcohol is a problem. But the underlying personality will be the same.
So can someone with an addictive personality be a vicar? People can be addicted to work or exercise as well as obviously harmful substances or behaviour. Underlying characteristics include poor impulse control and difficulty dealing with stress.
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
I don't know enough about the subject to know whether or not everyone with an addiction can be said to have an addictive personality. It's probably not everyone but those who do may substitute one addiction for another 'safer' addiction if alcohol is a problem. But the underlying personality will be the same.
So can someone with an addictive personality be a vicar? People can be addicted to work or exercise as well as obviously harmful substances or behaviour. Underlying characteristics include poor impulse control and difficulty dealing with stress.
hmm, well, a lot of people with high-stress jobs are heavily into something - whether cocaine or model railways (a peculiarly popular clerical hobby ).
Those who have seriously taken on board the *good* parts of the 12 step programmes and/or gotten good counselling/spiritual direction are more likely to have the appropriate tools to deal with the issues that regularly beset not only themselves but others.
There are plenty of tales of clergy who crack up quite absent any particular underlying personality-controlling *issue(s)*.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
In which case it may be hard to know if you are in for a church service or the scene from a vampire festival in an abattoir over parish communion. It always was a bloody business, being a priest, and doing away with animal sacrifice doesn't seem even half-way there.
It kind of makes you feel you'd be doing them a favour by not attending their church and adding to their problems!
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