Ship of Fools: Is praying for something you want selfish?

Thread: Is praying for something you want selfish? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

A year ago as I was moping about my perpetual singleness, one of my friends asked me,
"Why don't you ask God to send you a partner?"

I resisted because:
1) To me, it seemed greedy to pray for a specific thing for oneself.
2) It did border on using God as a slot-machine/Santa Claus.

So is asking for something specific problematic? I know Jesus said that "ask and you shall receive, knock and you shall find." But I don't think he means that we can use God for our petty desires.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

I think it makes a big difference whether or not you add "nevertheless, not my will by Thy will be done."

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

The desire for a partner is one God has been willing to grant going back to Adam. It is not a material request, it is a desire to love and be loved. If God has his reasons to refuse, for your benefit or the benefit of others, your prayer will not prevent him.

Posted by anglocatholic (# 13804) on :

In my singleness and lonliness I prayed for a partner and God gave me a wonderful wife. God does indeed, hear and answer prayer.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

I don't see any problem in praying for something that would benefit yourself, as long as you bear in mind the usual caveats about not expecting God to be your tame poodle and ensuring that your prayers are not 100% self-centred.

In fact, if it is something that matters a lot to you, I think you SHOULD pray about it, as long as it includes the part that says "you're God and so you may know better than I what is really good for me."

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

I don't think it's selfish, actually I think God must feel a bit sad if we don't think we can ever ask him for anything.

When talking about asking for stuff in prayer, Jesus compares our relationship with God to an earthly father taking care of his children (who gives his son a scorpion when he asks for an egg etc).

I think that's a helpful thing to think about. When my parents say "What do you want for Christmas?" they would be hurt if I told them I didn't want anything because I thought it was selfish or I didn't deserve it. They want to give. They also want me to tell them what I want.

Sometimes I don't know whether they'll give me the thing I'm asking for or not - but if I ask "Can I finish this fruit in the fridge?" they might say no but only if there's a good reason (i.e. they're saving it for something). They certainly don't want to see me go hungry.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

Whenever I think about praying for something for myself that I really want, I can't forget that although we live quite modestly by Western standards, I am aware that globally we won the lottery by being born into a western developed country, and are bloody greedy to demand any extra.

In fact, if I pray at all, it should be for all those poor buggers in Yemen and Niger and the Philippines and Iran which have experienced disasters recently (as well as giving them something) and all those Christians in Mali and Cote D'Ivoire and Nigeria and Sudan and Pakistan and elsewhere who never know when a mob is going to attack them.

Yes, you could drive a truck through all the theological and biblical holes in that, and I'm certainly not claiming any superior spirituality or compassion, because i think about these things but do very little about them.

Just saying.

Actually, just venting.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

There are at least some respected theologians in the tradition - Augustine I think - who say that we should pray for what we want even if we know what we want is sinful. The point is to come before God as we are and not pretending to ourselves to be something that we're not.
Certainly when I was single and not happy about it it was a fairly major fact about my mental/spiritual condition and something that I should have been discussing with God.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

It is possible to pray for oneself AND others. It's not like a prayer for a life partner will take up so much time that you have no time to pray for other people and situations too.

Four and a half years ago my husband and I took a whole week away to pray for a baby, which we really really wanted. By the end of the week, through prayer reading the Bible and listening to God in the quietness, I had reached the point of accepting that God's will was sovereign, and I would accept childlessness if that was His plan for me. I became pregnant the following month.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I think with Dafyd that honesty trumps selfishness. God knows perfectly well what's preoccupying you, why not tell him and get it off your chest? Clear the air. Then you can move on to praying about other things you personally consider more appropriate. And it seems to me he delights in saying "yes" whenever he can (which seems to be less often than he or we would like, but still). So even if the prayer were for a parking space, it's better to ask than not.

To be sure, he may say no. (or wait, or "have this instead," or whatever...) But if you don't ask, you still have to deal with the no/wait/etc. So you've really got nothing to lose. Well, except possibly a false sense of guilt caused by being more high-minded than God himself [Biased]

). And that's better off lost.

He calls us to be like children, children of God. And one of the things children are very well-known for is not censoring their communications with those they love. If a child has an urgent want or need, you can bet they'll let Mom or Dad know all about it immediately. In triplicate. Heck, a hundred times over.

[ 29. August 2012, 11:31: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Although God knows what we want and need without our asking for it, God won't impose anything upon us so unless we ask, we may not receive.

When our will and energy is in alignment with God's will and energy, God's power is seen in action.

I too add the riders that it's not about our attempting to manipulate God, nor about failing to pray for other people - quite the opposite!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Better to be honest with god than to pray as we think we are 'supposed to'.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I'm in the difficult position that suggests from experience that God either does not grant prayers, or that God plays favourites with some of you, granting you your prayers and withholding from me and mine. And, as a disclaimer, I should not that I'm struggling with how to pray these days.

I think praying for what you want is probably helpful in making an inventory and being clear in your thoughts and not much more. God doesn't really intervene in the world, and may motivate you to intervene is you become clear on your thought processes and what motivates you.

The addition to "thy will be done" does not seem complete, because what if God's will is not done? Which it certainly appears not to be in many many situations where evil holds sway.

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :

The pastors of my con-evo background consistently taught that prayer is always answered, and is answered in three ways: Yes, No, or Wait. I know that sounds simplistic, but my own personal experience backs it up.

I view prayer in much the same way as I view dialogue with an intimate friend. If I were to take a very pressing request to such a friend, I likely would receive one of the above responses. God, as our most intimate friend, knows what I need better than I do. Just as deep friendship can sometimes have its frustrations, so can my relationship with God. I have to be content with that, though sometimes it can be damned hard.

On the other hand, sometimes it can be delightfully surprising, and even (from my vantage point, at least,) miraculous!

Posted by catthefat (# 8586) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
The pastors of my con-evo background consistently taught that prayer is always answered, and is answered in three ways: Yes, No, or Wait. I know that sounds simplistic, but my own personal experience backs it up.

I find that rather funny. What other options are there? I can ask the tree I am looking at for something, and say the answer will be yes, no, or wait. So what was the point in asking at all?

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

Identify with what Catthefat says. As with traffic lights being either green, red or amber.

What are the alternatives?

Without seeming to be irreverent much prayer is answered in the phrase 'God helps those who help themselves'

Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :

When I read through this thread the thing that instantly came to my mind was 2 desperate prayers for a loved one. My niece suffered a traumatic head injury as an infant and her care at the hospital was largely experimental as no one had ever survived the level of injury she had. The answer for her survival and healing was "yes" and she grew up a normal kid in every way and got married and had a family of her own. Then she got cancer and again the prayers were desperate. This time the answer was "no" and we lost her, but I got an added extra that I am certain came from God "the added 37 years were a gift to be treasured".

As to everything else from minor wants and desires to pressing needs, I agree with Lambchopped: God already knows and you might as well get it off your chest. I even pray with anger at God at times and he has proven he can take it. Sometimes the situation changes and sometimes I change.

[ 29. August 2012, 16:06: Message edited by: Niteowl ]

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

To answer the question, "Of course, it is selfish. Does that matter?"

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

To me, "selfish" implies that it's to the detriment of others, which is not the case here. I would agree that it is self-oriented, but to your point, that's not a reason to avoid the prayer.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

So to sum up, prayers of petition are fine as long as one is prepared to receive whatever answer comes from God.

Faith is knowing that whatever answer from God is in the end, the right one.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

quote:
Originally posted by catthefat:

quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
The pastors of my con-evo background consistently taught that prayer is always answered, and is answered in three ways: Yes, No, or Wait. I know that sounds simplistic, but my own personal experience backs it up.
I find that rather funny. What other options are there? I can ask the tree I am looking at for something, and say the answer will be yes, no, or wait. So what was the point in asking at all?

I think that the point of the illustration is to encourage us that God always hears and responds to our prayers. It isn't saying "this proves that he must exist because all prayers are answed one way or another.". My pastor is fond of prefacing prayers for healing with the disquieting idea that God always heals in oneof three ways: through medicine, miracles or death. At first I thought he was giving his potentially ineffective prayers a get-out, but then I realised he was seeking to instill hope in the life to come when there will be
no more sickness.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Although God knows what we want and need without our asking for it, God won't impose anything upon us so unless we ask, we may not receive.

Nicely said. Indeed, excellent. I never thought of it this way but you're absolutely right.

To me it comes back to St. Paul (or whoever it was -- I can't keep track) saying, "Be anxious for nothing but in everything, with prayer and supplication, let your requests be made known to God." Here we're flat out TOLD to ask for what we want. We're not promised (here, at least) to get what we ask for -- only the peace of God.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Although God knows what we want and need without our asking for it, God won't impose anything upon us so unless we ask, we may not receive.
Nicely said. Indeed, excellent. I never thought of it this way but you're absolutely right.

To me it comes back to St. Paul (or whoever it was -- I can't keep track) saying, "Be anxious for nothing but in everything, with prayer and supplication, let your requests be made known to God." Here we're flat out TOLD to ask for what we want. We're not promised (here, at least) to get what we ask for -- only the peace of God.

I agree. We should ask God for what we want, if only to be clear and honest with ourselves about what this is. If God then sends us something, albeit often in partial or potential form, then unless we have made the effort to ask for it, we may not recognise it when it is put in front of us!

Just don't be surprised when God sends what you need rather than what you wanted. God's like that.

Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :

Xposted ^^

James 4:3 NET
you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly, so you can spend it on your passions.

The right motive is to bring people back to God:

Joshua 2:9-11 NET
She said to the men, “I know the Lord is handing this land over to you. We are absolutely terrified of you, and all who live in the land are cringing before you. For we heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you left Egypt and how you annihilated the two Amorite kings, Sihon and Og, on the other side of the Jordan. When we heard the news we lost our courage and no one could even breathe for fear of you. For the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on earth below!

Joshua 9:24 NET
They said to Joshua, “It was carefully reported to your subjects how the Lord your God commanded Moses his servant to assign you the whole land and to destroy all who live in the land from before you. Because of you we were terrified we would lose our lives, so we did this thing.

An example of a good prayer:

Acts 4:23-31 NET
When they were released, Peter and John went to their fellow believers and reported everything the high priests and the elders had said to them. When they heard this, they raised their voices to God with one mind and said, “Master of all, you who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them, who said by the Holy Spirit through your servant David our forefather,
‘Why do the nationsrage,
and the peoples plot foolishthings?
The kings of the earth stood together,
and the rulers assembled together,
against the Lord and against hisChrist.’
“For indeed both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do as much as your power and your plan had decided beforehand would happen. And now, Lord, pay attention to their threats, and grant to your servants to speak your message with great courage, while you extend your hand to heal, and to bring about miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” When they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God courageously.

Hey, ask for whatever is in your heart! Your friends and neighbours will be led to enquire about the source of your blessings. Which is what the coming of the Kingdom of God is about.

A new scene. Pyrotechnics included.

[ 29. August 2012, 17:38: Message edited by: footwasher ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Just don't be surprised when God sends what you need rather than what you wanted. God's like that.

As Mick Jagger might well say.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

Why would you need to pray about something you want? Why would God not know about what I want without me trying to verbalise it?

I don't think it is selfish, just pointless.

If I did pray like this, I guess the only form which would feel consistent to me would be something like 'God, you know how this thing is tearing me up, please sort it out or give me the strength to get through it'. But even that would feel like I was just verbalising a feeling for my own benefit.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Why would you need to pray about something you want? Why would God not know about what I want without me trying to verbalise it?

I don't think it is selfish, just pointless.

Because prayer isn't about informing an ignorant God. Why pray at all? Because we are commanded to; not because it does God any good (as if) but because it is good for us.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

Because prayer isn't about informing an ignorant God. Why pray at all?

Good question, I don't think there is much point in prayer - which is usually only a form of gossip, a form of patting (or sometimes stabbing) oneself on the back or a comfort blanket.

In a lot of senses, I don't think there is anything wrong with much of that - but then I find it highly problematic that we're doing something whose point is not the thing we act as if it is.

quote:
Because we are commanded to; not because it does God any good (as if) but because it is good for us.

If we can't tell God anything he doesn't already know, and the main purpose of prayer is for us (individually, community cohesion etc), then why do we pretend the main purpose is talking to God?

And I'm not really convinced we are commanded (at least not by Jesus Christ) to pray in the way we usually understand it - any more than we are to 'worship' in the way that we commonly understand it.

Which I suppose is a roundabout way of saying that communication with God is more about listening than speaking.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

An understandable position but not a terribly Christian one, if Christian here is considered to mean, "What people who call themselves Christian have been doing for the last 2000 years."

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

<< Mark 10:51 >>

"What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
An understandable position but not a terribly Christian one, if Christian here is considered to mean, "What people who call themselves Christian have been doing for the last 2000 years."

I don't believe there has ever been a single Christianity. From the beginning there were many different forms and understandings of the way to live in the Light of the Christ. So to claim that there is a monopoly of correct behaviour based on a line of history is simply untenable to me.

If it doesn't make any sense, it isn't right, in my view. I don't care who says it is right or how long they've been pushing their agenda.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
<< Mark 10:51 >>

"What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him.

And you seriously think that if someone had said 'I want a wife', that would have been an acceptable answer? Sorry, but I don't.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I've posted about this before, but let me be specific, and you can tell me what you think.

1. Family gathers at breakfast as their custom.
2. Family discusses each family member's plans for the day.
3. We pray for God's protection for ourselves as the final prayer following our prayers for others.
4. One family member arrives at her childcare job slightly early, door is broken down, man with weapon, beaten up and raped.

I find what seem to be childish notions of God as expressed in this thread aggravating, and seeming to represent lack of real life experience with substantial difficulties. Not to excessively single some of you out, but I have taken examples from your posts. So please tell me:

1. How does this attack fit into your 'yes, no, wait' ideas?

2. How could this possibly be "nevertheless thy will be done?"

3. How could this be "whatever answer from God is in the end, the right one"?

4. Is God a villain or a devil if "God always hears and responds to our prayers" and this was God's answer?

5. Were your companions, pregnancy, other petitions more worthy than prayers for avoidance of peril?

6. Is the outcome of attack then God's right answer?

7. Are some of your God's chosen people and some of us probably not? (or part of God's elect and I'm not?)

8. Was it excessively selfish to pray for protection of young family members?

I'll stop here, but not really done.

[ 29. August 2012, 18:53: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I've posted about this before, but let me be specific, and you can tell me what you think.

1. Family gathers at breakfast as their custom.
2. Family discusses each family member's plans for the day.
3. We pray for God's protection for ourselves as the final prayer following our prayers for others.
4. One family member arrives at her childcare job slightly early, door is broken down, man with weapon, beaten up and raped.

I'd also be interested to know how one would understand this scenario if you think the point of prayer is more to do with the person praying than forcing the hand of God. Is there much point in persuading yourself that God will protect you if in the end he doesn't?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
An understandable position but not a terribly Christian one, if Christian here is considered to mean, "What people who call themselves Christian have been doing for the last 2000 years."
I don't believe there has ever been a single Christianity. From the beginning there were many different forms and understandings of the way to live in the Light of the Christ.

And they all prayed.

Who made your understanding of what makes sense the arbiter of Christianity? Does the fact that the entire history of Christianity tells against you not say ANYTHING to your sense of what's the Christian thing to do?

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And they all prayed.

Who made your understanding of what makes sense the arbiter of Christianity? Does the fact that the entire history of Christianity tells against you not say ANYTHING to your sense of what's the Christian thing to do?

I don't accept your characterisation of Christian history nor the assumption that your understanding of prayer is shared by all Christians throughout the centuries.

I accept for the sake of argument that your Christianity is an authentic representation of a strand of Christianity throughout the ages, but that is far from a) saying it is the correct understanding b) that it is the only way or c) that all right-thinking Christians have practiced prayer in your way. I don't even think it is even obvious that all Christians have prayed in any of the senses we understand the terms.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

Who made your understanding of what makes sense the arbiter of Christianity?

And in answer to this: me. Logic is important to me, your mileage may vary and you may be content in believing things that don't make sense to you. I am not.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

As some here have hinted, prayer isn't just about telling God what you want, even when you're telling God what you want. By being honest and opening that dialogue (yes, dialogue), you also invite God to change your desires if need be.

When we pray, we are bringing our selves before God, and if we don't bring our desires as well, then we're not bringing our whole selves.

And, yes, God does know our desires; however, we need to ask anyway, because (1) God said to; (2) it is good for us to articulate our desires before God, because we learn a lot about ourselves that way, and, in articulating our desires to God, we find ourselves measuring those desires against our ultimate desire, which is God; (3) prayer is dialogue, communication - by telling God what we want, we invite God's opinion about it as well as God's answer to our prayer.

I'm sure there are many more reasons, too.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Originally posted by Graven Image:
<< Mark 10:51 >>

"What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him.

The Lone Ranger.

quote:
And you seriously think that if someone had said 'I want a wife', that would have been an acceptable answer? Sorry, but I don't.

Yes, I see nothing wrong with praying for a wife. In fact I think it is a very good idea to pray if you are looking for a life mate. This is a very important life changing choice, so I think offering it in prayer helps you to think about how you really want to live your life, what your true values are, and to open yourself up to who may come your way. Worked for me. Mr Image and I are looking forward 46 years of marriage soon.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

@Graven Image - congratulations on being able to live with another person for such a long time.

But your post illustrates another problem with prayer, namely that it implies that there is a link between praying something and finding a resolution to it. In my view, if you felt the urge to find a partner, you are as likely to have found her whether or not you articulated it in a prayer. Moreover if we believe that God knows us and that he wanted you to have a wife, he would have found a way to get you together with your wife whether or not you had articulated it. In retrospect it is easy to link your marriage to your earnest prayer.

I do not believe that Jesus would have found someone a wife in the passage you quote.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
So please tell me:

1. How does this attack fit into your 'yes, no, wait' ideas?

2. How could this possibly be "nevertheless thy will be done?"

3. How could this be "whatever answer from God is in the end, the right one"?

4. Is God a villain or a devil if "God always hears and responds to our prayers" and this was God's answer?

5. Were your companions, pregnancy, other petitions more worthy than prayers for avoidance of peril?

6. Is the outcome of attack then God's right answer?

7. Are some of your God's chosen people and some of us probably not? (or part of God's elect and I'm not?)

8. Was it excessively selfish to pray for protection of young family members?

I'll stop here, but not really done.

Your experience has been horrific, and your deep chagrin well expressed. It was not God's will that the attack took place. Why then did it take place, when you had asked for protection. Wasn't it God's will that you would all be protected? After all, Jesus included 'deliver us from evil' in the prayer he taught his disciples.

This takes us into the vortex of the question of suffering and free will, tangents explored elsewhere.

I think that there's a difference between praying for and expecting God to deliver a different world from the one we live in, and praying for and hoping that God will deliver the good things we desire as we live with the consequences of the world as it is now. We hold the hope of the Kingdom to come, and ask for it, but we know it's not here yet and will only come in God's good time.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I've posted about this before, but let me be specific, and you can tell me what you think.

1. Family gathers at breakfast as their custom.
2. Family discusses each family member's plans for the day.
3. We pray for God's protection for ourselves as the final prayer following our prayers for others.
4. One family member arrives at her childcare job slightly early, door is broken down, man with weapon, beaten up and raped.

I find what seem to be childish notions of God as expressed in this thread aggravating, and seeming to represent lack of real life experience with substantial difficulties. Not to excessively single some of you out, but I have taken examples from your posts. So please tell me:

1. How does this attack fit into your 'yes, no, wait' ideas?

2. How could this possibly be "nevertheless thy will be done?"

3. How could this be "whatever answer from God is in the end, the right one"?

4. Is God a villain or a devil if "God always hears and responds to our prayers" and this was God's answer?

5. Were your companions, pregnancy, other petitions more worthy than prayers for avoidance of peril?

6. Is the outcome of attack then God's right answer?

7. Are some of your God's chosen people and some of us probably not? (or part of God's elect and I'm not?)

8. Was it excessively selfish to pray for protection of young
family members?

I'll stop here, but not really done.

The OP asks the question whether it is right to pray for things for ourselves. I shared my experience of having a self-focussed prayer answered, which I think indicated that God does indeed admit such prayers. The fact that many, many prayers, for ourselves and others, are not granted is a separate issue but is an instance of God saying "no". Why your prayer for protection on that awful day was answered in this way is something that you and the others involved must wrestle with, along with everyone else who tries to understand why God allows bad things to happen at all.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

But you see, praying for yourself about some little things (or perhaps big to you) and considering that the thing prayed for has come to pass must either necessarily mean that God has granted it or that it occurred on its own and would have anyway. And if God granted it, then the ways of God are capricious, inscrutable or some nefarious combination. So I don't buy it. Not any more. Neither does my wife, my children, and others who ask me questions whereby I cannot restrain the telling.

This then necessarily means that God mustn't do other than hear the prayers and not act on them, allowing things to happen as they will. The praying is valuable only in its practice of faithfulness, worship and making your heart and mind clear.

Thus, my response, at this point in the (re)development of my thinking is that praying for something you want is indeed selfish, and God may hear it. God likely allows the situation to be or thing to be given or not based on the ways of the world, not intervening in any way. Except, and perhaps this may be the most valuable (though I am not there) that God can help what ever happens be borne; as someone posted even to death. Which I think may be a reinterpretation of "nevertheless thy will be done" as "I hope you (God) will help me bear what the world gives me".

I am struck with Jesus' apparently selfish prayer in the garden before his arrest (which completes the line before the "nevertheless thy will be done"): "take this cup from me". God did not spare Jesus, and allowed the people to arrest and kill Jesus. We've theologically interpreted this as a plan of God, but I'm not buying it in the specifics any more (or I must see God as a colossal bastard, or rather The Colossal Bastard). I do not think that the specifics of the cross and crucifixion were other than the way of the world.

[tangent]
Jesus' life was on a trajectory that would inevitably have led to his death, and maybe we'd have stones or some other device of execution as the Christian symbol thereby.
[/tangent]

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

The Lone Ranger Posted.

quote:

But your post illustrates another problem with prayer, namely that it implies that there is a link between praying something and finding a resolution to it. In my view, if you felt the urge to find a partner, you are as likely to have found her whether or not you articulated it in a prayer. Moreover if we believe that God knows us and that he wanted you to have a wife, he would have found a way to get you together with your wife whether or not you had articulated it. In retrospect it is easy to link your marriage to your earnest prayer.

I do not believe that Jesus would have found someone a wife in the passage you quote.

I agree I am sure that I could find a partner without prayer, but I think it opened me up to finding the best partner for me. I do not think of prayer as telling God just what I want, and God will get to work on the problem. Rather I think of prayer as being open to hearing, seeing, feeling the Spirit alive and active in the world. I do not think of prayer as a monologue but as a dialog.

I do not think that there is always resolution to prayer, but I think that there can be. My Father remained an alcoholic all his life. No matter how I prayed for his recovery. But by praying for him I think I was able to continue to love and care for him. So in a way the prayer was answered. We can be made well even if we are not cured.

I don't think Jesus is in the business of finding people life partners. Jesus is not my Yenta. But I do believe prayer made me want a peaceful, loving, family so I looked for a husband who would help me build that kind of a home. I do believe Jesus helped the people he met to live better lives. In the passage I quoted I think he really wanted the man to think about what being well would mean. Jesus was asking if he was ready to take on a whole life? I think Jesus could ask the same question of someone seeking marriage. So I think prayer is a way of looking at life in a more intentional way, and I think that is always a good thing. I also think it opens us up to being more aware of the moving of the Holy Spirit.

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I've posted about this before, but let me be specific, and you can tell me what you think.

1. Family gathers at breakfast as their custom.
2. Family discusses each family member's plans for the day.
3. We pray for God's protection for ourselves as the final prayer following our prayers for others.
4. One family member arrives at her childcare job slightly early, door is broken down, man with weapon, beaten up and raped.

I find what seem to be childish notions of God as expressed in this thread aggravating, and seeming to represent lack of real life experience with substantial difficulties. Not to excessively single some of you out, but I have taken examples from your posts. So please tell me:

I hesitate to post responses to these questions, as I'm afraid that I'm going to come across as harsh and unsympathetic. But this is Purgatory and you did ask so I'll give it a shot...

quote:
1. How does this attack fit into your 'yes, no, wait' ideas?

You all prayed for protection. The answer was obviously 'no'.

quote:
2. How could this possibly be "nevertheless thy will be done?"

G-d is complicated, life is long, and we see through a glass darkly.

I don't really know.

There's an analogy I stole from Huston Smith (I believe) wrt theodicy. I believe he himself was an agnostic, but he wondered if G-d's perspective on humanity's sufferings was something like the perspective of a parent teaching their child to ride a bike. As a parent, you know when you teach your child to ride a bike that they are going to get hurt in minor ways (they're going to fall off, scrape their knees, etc.). And yet, you teach them to ride a bike anyway, as you think the rewards of bicycle riding far outweigh the temporary pain of a couple scraped knees. What if G-d's perspective on the whole of humanity and human history makes whatever trials and tribulations and sufferings we endure look like the equivalent of a scraped knee?

quote:
3. How could this be "whatever answer from God is in the end, the right one"?

But it's not the end. It's true that on one day you prayed for protection and on that day protection wasn't forthcoming, but that's not the end of the story. You don't know what else is going to happen, and whether or not you or your relative or the people you talk to about this situation are going to be able to help others who have been/are going through similar problems, or even if you might be able to reach people in ways that mean that this sort of suffering happens to fewer people. Without direct intervention of the smiting down evil-doers type, they only thing G-d has to work with on earth is his ability to touch believers' hearts, and his ability to use them to touch others' hearts and persuade them to turn towards the good.

quote:
4. Is God a villain or a devil if "God always hears and responds to our prayers" and this was God's answer?

In answer to this, I'm going to quote Mary Doria Russell from The Sparrow as it's one of the books I tend to reread when my own life has taken a sucky turn:

quote:
'Do you think so, John? Was it your G-d?' he asked with terrifying gentleness. "You see, that is my dilemma. Because if I was led by G-d to love G-d, step by step, as it seemed, if I accept that the beauty and the rapture were real and true, then the rest of it was G-d's will too, and that, gentlemen, is cause for bitterness. But if I am simply a deluded ape who took a lot of old folktales far too seriously, then I brought all this on myself and my companions and the whole business becomes farcical, doesn't it. The problem with atheism, I find, under these circumstances,' he continued with academic exactitude, each word etched on the air with acid, 'is that I have no one to despise but myself. If, however, I choose to believe that G-d is vicious, then at least I have the solace of hating G-d.'

Looking from face to face, he watched comprehension working its way into their minds. What could any of them say? He almost laughed. 'Can you guess what I thought just before I was used the first time?' he asked them as he began to pace. 'This is rich. This is very funny! You see, I was scared but I didn't understand what was going on. I never imagined - who could have imagined such a thing? I am in G-d's hands, I thought. I loved G-d and I trusted in His love. Amusing, isn't it? I laid down all my defenses. I had nothing between e and what happened but the love of G-d. And I was raped. I was naked before G-d and I was raped.

And

quote:
Did you think you were the only one? Is it possible that you are so arrogant?' He asked, in tones of wonderment. Sandoz was blinking rapidly now. 'Did you think you were the only one ever to wonder if what we do is worth the price we pay? Did you honestly believe that you alone, of all those who have gone, were the single man to lose G-d? Do you think we would have a name for the sin of despair, if only you had experienced it?

quote:
5. Were your companions, pregnancy, other petitions more worthy than prayers for avoidance of peril?

No. There's a huge difference between something being worthy and something being in accordance with G-d's inscrutable will.

quote:
6. Is the outcome of attack then God's right answer?

I'm not sure how this question is all that different from some of the earlier ones, so I'm not sure what other answer to give to it.

quote:
7. Are some of your God's chosen people and some of us probably not? (or part of God's elect and I'm not?)

No, in spite of what the prosperity preachers teach, the existence of suffering in a person's life does not mean that they have earned G-d's disfavor (I've never figured out how they logically fit Jesus into their picture of how G-d rewards the faithful with material good things in this world, but whatever).

quote:
8. Was it excessively selfish to pray for protection of young family members?

I'll stop here, but not really done.

No, it wasn't excessively selfish (I'm not really understanding why you would think that). It just wasn't a prayer that was answered in a way you would want. Most of mine aren't either. Seems that every time I pray lately G-d sends me someone who makes me even more confused about what I should do.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

I have prayed for what i want. Did I expect an yes answer. Not really and I believe that God would us rather ask than stay confused, upset ,It feels good to know that He is there to listen to how we feel & what we want,way down deep/ [Smile]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And they all prayed.

Who made your understanding of what makes sense the arbiter of Christianity? Does the fact that the entire history of Christianity tells against you not say ANYTHING to your sense of what's the Christian thing to do?
I don't accept your characterisation of Christian history nor the assumption that your understanding of prayer is shared by all Christians throughout the centuries.

I accept for the sake of argument that your Christianity is an authentic representation of a strand of Christianity throughout the ages, but that is far from a) saying it is the correct understanding b) that it is the only way or c) that all right-thinking Christians have practiced prayer in your way. I don't even think it is even obvious that all Christians have prayed in any of the senses we understand the terms.

If you have evidence of some 2000-year-old sect of Christianity whose religious practices have never included prayer, I for one would be absolutely fascinated to hear about it.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I don't think there is much point in prayer - which is usually only a form of gossip, a form of patting (or sometimes stabbing) oneself on the back or a comfort blanket.

That's rather harsh. When I pray, it usually isn't where someone else can hear me (so rule out gossip). A source of comfort? Well, occasionally, but more often a source of discomfort as I get confronted with stuff I maybe don't want to be confronted with, meh. And the patting/stabbing self on the back is totally not there. I can smell that kind of shit, all the more so if I'm the source dealing it out.

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:

In a lot of senses, I don't think there is anything wrong with much of that - but then I find it highly problematic that we're doing something whose point is not the thing we act as if it is.

If we can't tell God anything he doesn't already know, and the main purpose of prayer is for us (individually, community cohesion etc), then why do we pretend the main purpose is talking to God?

Okay, I'm getting sort of crabby here. I am no great shakes at prayer--I'm still in kindergarten on it--but you can count me right out of the "we" that is being hypocritical about the real purpose of prayer. I DO think the point of prayer--petitionary prayer, anyway--is to ask. Otherwise why not meditate, or go to counseling, or say Ohhhhhhhhm or whatever? Asking is not that comfortable, because it forces you to face the possibility that you might get a No.

But then you might get a yes. You'll never know until you ask.

I know asking is childish. I suspect that is part of the reason why some high-minded people (not you necessarily, but I've run into many) refuse to pray petitionary prayers. To hell with that. I'm going to pray like a child, because I AM a child in so many ways.

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
And I'm not really convinced we are commanded (at least not by Jesus Christ) to pray in the way we usually understand it - any more than we are to 'worship' in the way that we commonly understand it.

Maybe not. As far as I can remember at the moment, it's more of a "When you pray, do such and such"--he (and the disciples asking him) assumes you're going to pray anyway, the only question is how. Which is probably true, because in desperate moments even unbelievers tend to fall into prayer all unintentionally.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

No prophet, I don't think the "yes-no-wait" alternatives cover everything. In particular I don't think they cover hellish scenarios like yours--in those cases you are left with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and desperate prayers in Gethsemane. But I don't know any easy short symbolism for that, which is probably a good thing. Because that's almost a wholly different dimension of prayer, more like Jacob wrestling with God in the darkness.

It is overly simplistic and hurtful to assure people that if they ask, they will get an easy answer--or even something that is identifiably an answer at all. We had our standard grade A miracle in 2000 with the birth of our son after years of prayer where we didn't know if it was "wait" or "no" until the very last month, when I finally got a clear promise (of sorts).

Then we had the total opposite of that lovely scenario six months ago, when I miscarried his baby brother or sister.

Light and darkness. I can't explain it. Why did God say such a wonderful "yes" in the first case, and allow such a horrible "no" in the second? Why did James get martyred and Peter freed by an angel, both in prison at about the same time, both apostles, both prayed for by the church? God only knows. I'm damn sure it had nothing to do with Peter being somehow better or more favored than James, or with the church somehow praying more correctly or fervently in one case than the other.

The church did carry on praying, though, even after James was killed first and they had every expectation the same thing would happen to Peter. Maybe it's just because that's what we do, pray.

But in spite of all the evil God hasn't stopped in my life, I can't shake the sense that he really is there and really does care and that in the end, all will be well. Maybe for a while, when I'm in the depths and extremely angry at him. But not permanently. I wish it was understandable.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
2. How could this possibly be "nevertheless thy will be done?"

Since I'm the one who posted that response, let me just say that of course it cannot possibly be God's will that was being done - it was the rapist's will. My suggestion to add that phrase to a prayer does not mean in any way that I believe that what actually happens must somehow be God's will being done.

Your questions are all valid and good questions, but it seems to me that there are three separate issues. You are raising the issues of theodicy and of the efficacy of prayer and the OP is raising a question of the appropriateness of a particular kind of prayer. The OP may assume that prayers can be effective, but that is not the issue it explicitly raised.

I stand by my suggestion and I think this whole thread is a good discussion of prayer and is a discussion worth having. But at the same time, I think the questions you raise are ones that everyone should consider before coming to any conclusion about a prayer or about a pray-er based on how things actually turn out. I think that at worst, prayers do no harm, and at least have the beneficial effects that churchgeek points out. The problems come from the expectations that people have based on prayers and the conclusions they come to based on the actual results.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

There is a story about a woman dealing with some extremely bad stuff who said to a friend, "Why did God create me to suffer so?" Her friend replied, "He didn't create you; he is creating you."

If a block of marble had feelings, what the sculptor does to it would feel like wanton destruction. In fact, the result is a beautiful statue. I am willing to believe, as an abstract idea, that I will someday rejoice over all the bad stuff that's happened to me. There is no way I can rejoice now, but I think that's my weakness.

As far as prayer is concerned, I am in the habit of thanking God briefly for the good things that I come across during the day. Somehow this helps my perspective in dealing with the bad stuff.

no prophet, I suspect that this sounds glib to you. You are still too close to what happened. Time doesn't completely heal, but it does close most open wounds.

Moo

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

It is the 'grant this prayer, but not that' for no apparent rhyme nor reason that has led me to the current thought that praying for yourself does not influence God, and has value only in raising the issues for yourself and those around you.

I don't know that God saves us from things in the world, nor grants us favours or boons. I used to think that probably God did. I wondering coincidence and things that might have inevitably happened.

The point is taken that the thread is about the appropriateness of praying for self, and the issues I raise steer towards results of prayer. The connection is, I suppose, whether it matters if prayers are not influential outside of ourselves. I'm suggesting perhaps they are psychologically useful, maybe even more so if they allow the unloading of thoughts about self toward thoughts of others(?)

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

"I am the ground of your praying. First, it is my will that you should have this; then I make it your will, too; then I make you ask for it, and you do so. How then should you not have what you pray for?"
Julian of Norwich

Just quotin'...

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
"I am the ground of your praying. First, it is my will that you should have this; then I make it your will, too; then I make you ask for it, and you do so. How then should you not have what you pray for?"
Julian of Norwich

Just quotin'...

Should I be adding that if I'm praying for something that doesn't occur, my will was not conformed to God's. Sounds terrific in theory and comforting in thought. A piece of the problem maybe.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No prophet, I don't think the "yes-no-wait" alternatives cover everything. In particular I don't think they cover hellish scenarios like yours--in those cases you are left with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and desperate prayers in Gethsemane. But I don't know any easy short symbolism for that, which is probably a good thing. Because that's almost a wholly different dimension of prayer, more like Jacob wrestling with God in the darkness.

This is very good. It is a self-centred prayer on a different dimension for sure. The question is whether God does forsake us I suppose. Was God truly absent from Jesus in the garden and on the cross? That was terribly mean cruel.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

@no prophet: So if we pray for something we want and don't get it, then God has forsaken us, but as long as we don't pray for it, He hasn't? I can't be reading you right. Please explain what you mean about God forsaking us. Hasn't God forsaken a rape victim? Isn't that mean and cruel?

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
"I am the ground of your praying. First, it is my will that you should have this; then I make it your will, too; then I make you ask for it, and you do so. How then should you not have what you pray for?"
Julian of Norwich

Just quotin'...
Should I be adding that if I'm praying for something that doesn't occur, my will was not conformed to God's. Sounds terrific in theory and comforting in thought. A piece of the problem maybe.

Tis indeed very comforting; I agree from long experience of this quote.

But since you bring it up...she - Julian - says also when she is talking about her request for the illness and experience of death similar to her Lord's (i.e. technically before the bit I quoted):
"...I ask with a condition, saying this: "Lord, you know what I desire, but I desire it only if it is your will that I should have it. If it is not your will, good Lord, do not be displeased, for my will is to do your will"

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

I don't understand the reticence to pray for oneself. As others have noted in prior posts, it seems that withholding a heartfelt wish for oneself in a desire to not seem "selfish" is, in a sense, being dishonest with God. And it also seems to be an attempt to be holier than what God requires of us; I can't think of any Scriptural support for the notion of never praying for oneself. (As a theological wit once observed many centuries ago, why keep making up new commandments when we can't even keep the original ten.)

If God does indeed know our inmost thoughts and desires -- then stop the pretense when talking to God and just say what you mean/mean what you say.

To me the problem arises if one becomes so busy praying for oneself that prayers for the rest of the world go out the window. Which is why in catechism class they taught us to pray on behalf of others first, then on behalf of ourselves; it sets up a good lifetime habit.

[ 30. August 2012, 17:02: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]

Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :

Answered prayer is a sign for the world. Rahab, the Gibeonites witnessed the results and were impressed. Made choices, turned to God. This is how God intended to use Abraham and his seed to be blessings to the world, by blessing those who obeyed the law, who believed Him.

Deuteronomy 28:1 NET
“If you indeed obey the Lord your God and are careful to observe all his commandments I am giving you today, the Lord your God will elevate you above all the nations of the earth.

Perseverance in the face of trials and tribulations are a sign for God:

Genesis 22:12 NET
“Do not harm the boy!” the angel said. “Do not do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God because you did not withhold your son, your only son, from me.”

God wants us to believe in Him always. He trains us with small testings along the way, during the time of our walk with Him. He's getting us ready for the Big One. He recorded instances of people who flubbed, crashed and burned, big time:

Hebrews 3:8-9 NET
“Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness.
“There your fathers tested me and tried me,and they saw my works for forty years.

These things were written for our instruction.

Jesus took risks like Abraham took risks, and God vindicated their choices. When the Big One came, they didn't choke.

Bottom line, good things happen when we pray, both when the players are answered and when they aren't.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
@no prophet: So if we pray for something we want and don't get it, then God has forsaken us, but as long as we don't pray for it, He hasn't? I can't be reading you right. Please explain what you mean about God forsaking us. Hasn't God forsaken a rape victim? Isn't that mean and cruel?

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that forsaking us is the general state of things. So it is actually both instances. Prayer not appearing to influence things other than within the pray-er's thoughts and feelings. Perhaps influence or response to prayer can be extended to others in the community, but God won't be influenced and doesn't generally respond with the granting of prayer requests, if at all, ever.

quote:
Lamb Chopped's statements below seems to capture what I'm confused about
Why did James get martyred and Peter freed by an angel, both in prison at about the same time, both apostles, both prayed for by the church? God only knows. I'm damn sure it had nothing to do with Peter being somehow better or more favored than James, or with the church somehow praying more correctly or fervently in one case than the other.The church did carry on praying, though, even after James was killed first and they had every expectation the same thing would happen to Peter. Maybe it's just because that's what we do, pray.

I'd add only, I'm not quite sure why or how at the moment. Maybe the nature of the world, of human life is forsakenness? With a lot of prayer being happy coincidence and illusion, except as it may allow us to clarify our thoughts and respond to each other?

It is more than a year now, since the example I posted about occurred. I can almost dispassionately consider the circumstances. My most selfish prayer was shortly after where I fervently asked God to end my life in place of her suffering, to which there certainly wasn't a response. I did learn extremely clearly that some things are more precious than my life, but I cannot abide a God who'd require such an occurrence to teach me that (not that this is my story as much as her's!). Nor one who'd either make or allow such horrid things to happen in the face of prayer. So to continue at all, I can only consider the alternative of God cannot or does not grant prayers and we are forsaken by definition.

To return squarely to the topic, it does seem to me now, as my thoughts develop further through this discussion -- and I wish it was otherwise -- that selfish or self-centred prayers are a problem and not appropriate in the sense that they build a sense of possibly harmful expectation that God will respond.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It is the 'grant this prayer, but not that' for no apparent rhyme nor reason that has led me to the current thought that praying for yourself does not influence God, and has value only in raising the issues for yourself and those around you.

This implies that you still continue to pray, despite being of the view that God is not listening (or will not respond, which amounts to the same thing). Why not stop praying altogether, and just have a discussion with people or write a diary to clear your thoughts?

You are in a place of enormous pain and shock, and from such a place it is impossible to conceive of not being there and feeling that way. God will heal your girl, and you - through prayer.

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

quote:
Lamb Chopped said:
So even if the prayer were for a parking space, it's better to ask than not.

All the time! [Yipee]

I'm holding off seriously praying for a mate because I don't think I am seriously ready, and I know it might happen if I get serious enough to pray about it. So when I do feel ready, I will certainly feel free to focus prayer on it.

But I avoid specificity. I would never presume to describe my ideal mate in prayer, because I know from experience that my own imagination is way too limited and limiting. I've had things happen that were well beyond my own visualisation of my prayers, so I do think it is very important to leave it open to the will of God HOW to answer the appeal.

Pray away! My prayers are with you. [Votive]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:

So is asking for something specific problematic? I know Jesus said that "ask and you shall receive, knock and you shall find." But I don't think he means that we can use God for our petty desires.

I don't think wanting a , (possibly life-long), partner is in any way a petty desire .
And it's certainly not selfish one . First it would impact directly on the happiness of another person , and two it would indirectly have a positive effect on yourself and therefore those around you.

Come to think of it there is no such thing as a selfish prayer . For if the request is granted then the outcome will always have a positive knock-on effect, (whether it to be on one, some, or many).

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

My trouble is that I'm convinced on the basis of some of my experiences that he DOES hear, can and does answer--sometimes--I can't deny that, the eleven-year-old shouldn't-be-alive proof thereof is sitting right in front of me. Not to mention a million smaller things.

And then there's the other side of my experiences, the "why have you forsaken me?" parts, which are hellish enough to have given me a lifelong case of PTSD.

I can't explain it. I've decided not to try, since the evidence is not reconcilable on this level (absolutely there's no way all the miraculous stuff that has happened is down to coincidence or my misunderstanding). I'm going to leave this theological problem on the side of my plate.

No prophet, if you'll forgive me for importing something from another thread, you spoke of the value and power of simply being married, and how couples going through very hard times sometimes draw on that when they have little or nothing else. That is maybe parallel to what gets me through the shit times with God. At those times I don't like him, I don't understand him, I don't want to be there. But we're "married". And so I stay, until things finally become better.

(by the way, the example you gave of "take my life" WAS answered--God said no, and for damn good reason. I can't possibly imagine that your family would have ever considered exchanging your life for her suffering, that would have been ten times worse for them than what actually happened. I've told my own husband that if he ever manages to lay down his life for my sake to spare me something, I'll resurrect him just to murder him again.)

[ 30. August 2012, 22:45: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
My trouble is that I'm convinced on the basis of some of my experiences that he DOES hear, can and does answer--sometimes--I can't deny that, the eleven-year-old shouldn't-be-alive proof thereof is sitting right in front of me. Not to mention a million smaller things.

Which is why he pisses me off! Why that and not this - in a million, no a billion different circumstances. Many times these months, I'd rather have the option of atheism. Is there a word for 'inscrutable and makes me furious because of it', probably in some language.

quote:
Lamb Chopped

And then there's the other side of my experiences, the "why have you forsaken me?" parts, which are hellish enough to have given me a lifelong case of PTSD.

I can't explain it. I've decided not to try, since the evidence is not reconcilable on this level (absolutely there's no way all the miraculous stuff that has happened is down to coincidence or my misunderstanding). I'm going to leave this theological problem on the side of my plate.

Probably not far enough along in this mess, and as old as I am chronologically, woefully immature on some levels. I cannot reconcile the actual experience of things like you post about with the complete desolate, barren, nuclear winter absence in some others.

I'm beginning to wonder if a version of PTSD is the human condition, common to all of us. I'm not doing a lifetime of it, but dramatic relapses on top of fears.

quote:
Lamb Chopped

No prophet, if you'll forgive me for importing something from another thread, you spoke of the value and power of simply being married, and how couples going through very hard times sometimes draw on that when they have little or nothing else. That is maybe parallel to what gets me through the shit times with God. At those times I don't like him, I don't understand him, I don't want to be there. But we're "married". And so I stay, until things finally become better.

Nope, no way I'm forgiving you for that! Though I will thank you at the same time.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

[Razz]

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