Thread: JULY BOOK GROUP: T. Pratchett's "Thief of Time" Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Welcome, everyone!

This month's book is Terry Pratchett's "Thief of Time". It's one of my favorite books, and IMHO has some of TP's best plotting.

Please post on this thread if you plan to participate, just so I have an idea of how many to expect. Anyone may join, and people are free to drop in after we start, too.

We generally start around the 20th of the month. If that doesn't work for you, let me know.

On the 20th, I'll post a list of questions, just to get the conversation going. (This is not a test, and you don't have to answer them!)

Please don't discuss the book before then--don't want to give spoilers, and it's more fun if we start together.

Ready, set, READ!

 

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Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :
 
Moved from shelves to bedside. Looking forward to rereading.
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Yay !
 

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Posted by Bene Gesserit (# 14718) on :
 
I'm in.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I'll have to hunt in the non-sorted part of my book store. I know I've got it somewhere. One of those I particularly like, too.
(Moved in to new home with no shelves, books packed according to size not subject. Books from father's house as well. Put up some but not all shelves and unloaded books. Collected and shelved history books in chronological order, putting displaced books in gaps created by removal of hostory books. Ditto with weird, mythology and women's ditto. Thus any other themed books will have been condensed together, but not in any order. Some are behind things. Ho hum.)
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
If I can find it, I'll join in. The bookcase in the bathroom seems a good place to start...Pratchett himself suggests that all the really good books end up in the "smallest room".
 

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Posted by Diomedes (# 13482) on :
 
I've just dug out my copy, haven't re-read it recently,so I'm in too!
 

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Posted by To The Pain (# 12235) on :
 
I re-read this several times a year - it's one of the books I can open at any point and start reading. In the middle of a house move so it's boxed up somewhere (I suspect a friend's garage) but I could always splash out on the kindle version, or just participate from memory.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
LOVE this book!

I'm in.


 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Me, too!
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Found it. After a confusing moment when I found Tony Hillerman's book with a similar title. And read half of it last night. And the small hours of the morning. It is amazing how much time was absorbed by the search and the reading. Thief of Time indeed.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
I thought it was constipation was the thief of time.

I'll get me coat ...
 

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Posted by Just Me (# 14937) on :
 
Don't know if I'll actually make it to discussing the book - but reckon I'll re-read it.

J
 

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Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
So many intelligent, interesting people love Terry Pratchett that I thought I would like his books. I tried to read The Colour of Magic and just couldn't get through it--didn't like it at all. Am I reading the wrong book? Is there some other Pratchett novel I should start with? I really feel that I am missing out on something.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
The Colour of Magic is an early one in the series, when Pratchett was still feeling his way with the Diskworld. It might be worthwhile trying one of the later books - if you are reasonably clued in to Rock and Roll, you might find Soul Music makes a good read.
 

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Posted by Lord Pontivillian (# 14308) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
If I can find it, I'll join in. The bookcase in the bathroom seems a good place to start...Pratchett himself suggests that all the really good books end up in the "smallest room".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Darllenwr:
The Colour of Magic is an early one in the series, when Pratchett was still feeling his way with the Diskworld. It might be worthwhile trying one of the later books - if you are reasonably clued in to Rock and Roll, you might find Soul Music makes a good read.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Have you read "Carpe Jugulum"? Granny W. most definitely has the lead in that.

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Carpe Jugulum was long enough ago to have a Josh Kirby cover. That must be more than five years ago. (Checks what the date actually was - )
 

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Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
Thanks for the advice, y'all. I have just ordered "Thief of Time" from Amazon and should get it Friday or Monday. So I'll be (I hope) reading along with the rest of you.
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
I quite like the Witches books for younger readers in the Pratchett oeuvre. They seem to be to be about becoming who you are called to be, and are deeply vocational in its truest sense.

And I love Tiffany Aching...go girl!
 

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Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
...and just got "Wyrd Sisters" for my kindle. Don't know anything about martial arts movies, not heavily into musicals (though I do like opera and some theatre), but I love Shakespeare, so I'll probably read that one first.

Thank so much for helping me.
 

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Posted by Mrs Shrew (# 8635) on :
 
I'm in! (I think I signed up for May but didn't join in as I failed to read the book, but I know I will roar through a Pratchett, and I don't think I have read this one!)
 

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Posted by Fuff (# 14655) on :
 
I read "Small Gods" first then every other one didn't seem as good.

I've started Thief of Time today though.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re "Thief of Time" and martial arts, etc.:

IMHO, you DON'T have to know anything about them. They've been a minor interest of mine for a long time, and I was a big fan of the old "Kung Fu" TV series (with David Carradine). I almost mentioned in the OP that KF fans might especially like the book, but I was afraid of putting other folks off.

You'll pick up everything you need to know in the book, I think.
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I'll check the local branch library in a few hours: I don't have the budget to buy new books right now and Zeke does not need it for her Nook (e-reader) at the prices they are asking...
 

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Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
The Thief Of Time is about martial arts? How on earth did I miss that when I read it ?

Time to unearth it from the bookshelf, dust it off and open it again, obviously.....

I would also recommend Wyrd Sisters as one of the best starting points into Discworld. The first two books can be ignored quite safely for a good long while, IMO.
 

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Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :
 
Ooh, the Pratchetts are one of the few sets of books that are a) together and b) findable since our move! Have pulled this one off the shelf and started re-reading it. I normally read very quickly and miss alot, so am trying to take it a bit slower and take more in. I've already noticed one pun that I'd skipped over on my several earlier readings...
 

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Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :
 
I shall have a go at this discussion. I've read Thief of Time in the past, and have downloaded the audiobook.

Cattyish, off to the garden with the Thief.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Darllenwr:
The Colour of Magic is an early one in the series, when Pratchett was still feeling his way with the Diskworld. It might be worthwhile trying one of the later books - if you are reasonably clued in to Rock and Roll, you might find Soul Music makes a good read.

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When I was teaching, back in the early 1980s, several children in my year 6 class wanted to know if I'd read 'Truckers' and were quite shocked to know that I hadn't heard of TP! I took it on a train and thought what a weird book, but since I had nothing else to read, I carried on. By the time I got to the middle, I was creased up with laughter! So then I started to read straight through the Disc World series but didn't really 'get it' until I'd reached about book 6. Just recently I have read 'Colour of Magic' and 'Light Fantastic' for the first time since then, and realise just how clever they were. I'm not going to participate here, but will definitely be reading the discussion.
 

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Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :
 
I shall have a go at this discussion. I've read Thief of Time in the past, and have downloaded the audiobook.

Cattyish, off to the garden with the Thief.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Off topic, but just a week ago I learnt that Wincanton is twinned with Ankh-Morpork, and that there is an online Disc World Monthly!!
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
I still think that Witches Abroad has the best ever quote - to the effect that vampires may rise from the grave or the crypt, but never, ever from the cat. (Sorry, I haven't got the book to hand)
 

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Posted by PriestWifeMum (# 17200) on :
 
I love this book. I even managed to wangle writing an essay on it at college, thank you for making me read it again.
 

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Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
Welcome to the Ship, PriestWifeMum! We're glad you have made your first post here in Heaven!

For more greetings, you may want to check out the welcome thread in All Saints.

jedijudy
One of the Friendly Heaven Hosts
 

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Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
To my mind Night Watch is the best ever Pratchett - it seemed to me so complete, and to round out Sam Vimes so well, that nothing before or since has touched it. Having said that, I wouldn't start with that - I'd go for Pyramids which is the one I first read, as everyone knows about Ancient Egypt. Once I realised that the handmaiden's name was Ptraci, I was hooked

Sadly the latest books are becoming very formulaic*, and Snuff was very much 'going through the motions', in more ways than one.

*and yes, I do understand why that should be so

Mrs. S, proud owner of every Pratchett book, some of them signed
 

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Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
Apologies for the double post but

quote:

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I've read Thief of Time in the past, and have downloaded the audiobook.

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As well as owning all the books, I have them as audiobooks too. In the context of this thread, they are wonderful for making you pay attention - I read fast and find myself missing bits. The audiobooks put paid to that.

And as I am a notoriously bad sleeper, they are fantastic for sending me back to sleep in the middle of the night. And if I don't get back to sleep, then I have something great to listen to while I lie awake

Mrs. S, reaching for the iPod (oh no, I'm supposed to be at work
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
Thanks to this thread I've decided to re-read Thief. I may even join in with the Q&A at the end of the month....
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Collecting the book at local lending library tomorrow: city cutbacks mean it is closed today!
 

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Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
I have bought "Thief of Time" and am reading "Wyrd Sisters" on my kindle now. I am liking "Wyrd Sisters," so thanks to all who gave me advice on which discworld novel to start with!
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
...I have them as audiobooks too. In the context of this thread, they are wonderful for making you pay attention - I read fast and find myself missing bits. The audiobooks put paid to that.

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quote:

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I would be interested to know who the reader is on your audio books.

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It can be either Nigel Planer (remember him from The Young Ones ?) or Stephen Briggs, who I believe has also created stage works from some of the books. My preference is for Planer, although perhaps Briggs does the voices better, because to my ears Briggs tends to make.the.endings.of.the.words.a.bit.too.clipped. IYSWIM. And he can't pronounce 'Artificers' for toffee!

Mrs. S, very picky about the voices of her audiobooks
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Meanwhile, on Radio Four Extra, at 6pm and midnight, starting yesterday, you can hear "Guards! Guards!", and next week, "Wyrd Sisters".

And "The World of Poo" - see "Snuff" - is out.
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jenny Ann:
Started this last night...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Beethoven:
. I've already noticed one pun that I'd skipped over on my several earlier readings...

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Just finished re-reading and, silly me, for the first time noticed the major pun involving the title!
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
I'd never noticed that either - now, it'as blindingly obvious
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
I think it's an example of Terry's masterly misdirection - we are introduced to Lobsang first of all as a thief and we think, he is the thief of the title.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Shhhh...let's save book details for the discussion on the 20th, please!

 

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Posted by Morgan (# 15372) on :
 
Love Terry Pratchett. Have not done a book group before so this looks a good place to start.
 

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Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
Book just arrived from Amazon. Looking forward to reading it and then the discussion!
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Hi. Does the 20th (this Friday) still work for people? We can adjust the date, if necessary. OTOH, latecomers are welcome!

 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I never participated in this group, but I just got my hands on this book! It's only the second Pratchett book that I'm reading, so I'm not very familiar with Discworld yet. I don't know if I'll be able to finish it before tomorrow, but I expect to go a long way in the weekend.
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I'll finish at least 2/3 of the book today, so by midday tomorrow, I'll join in the discussion. Three interlinking stories are difficult to keep track of sometimes, as are the lack of chapters....
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
No need to rush. I'll post the questions, then you can join when you're ready.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Sir Kevin: Three interlinking stories are difficult to keep track of sometimes, as are the lack of chapters....

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You just need to follow the 'Ticks'

I'm almost finished, but I don't have much internet access in the weekend. I'll try to answer the questions on Monday, if that's alright.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
DISCUSSION STARTS HERE.

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your keyboards! In addition to the usual “what I liked/disliked” stuff, you might consider these:

--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

--Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?

--If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?

--How important is Chaos in our reality?

--What did you think of Myria/Unity?

--Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?

These are all just suggestions.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
LeRoc--

No rush on the questions!
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Golden Key:

quote:

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--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

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I wish I was Susan as a teacher.

I also share her taste in chocolate, although in a pinch, I will not despise nougat.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Yes, though the closest I get to liking nougat is a 3 Musketeers bar, which I haven't had in many years. So I find her "nougat doesn't count" principle quite sound. Helpful purveyors of boxed chocs put a map inside the lid, so you know what you're getting. (Of course, in the words of Forrest Gump, "you never know what you're going to get".)


 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I'm possibly, here, afraid to say that the book has had no effect on my thoughts about Revelation, since I have long regarded it as not being about the end of the world, but intended to illuminate something else, pertinent at the time of writing.

My mother, who had a Bishop's Certificate, and probably a better understanding of theology than the minister who expelled her from the Congregational Church we were members of, warned me to be cautious about any group basing their teachings on Revelation, Daniel, and Matthew 24 being matters of fact.
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
With Miss Susan as a teacher, school trips would have been much more exciting! I like the idea of chocolates you don't like not really counting.

Myria is an interesting character - she identifies some of the things which make us human rather than just masses of atoms. She comes to understand why the Auditors cannot see that things such as beauty are not wholly rational and objective. [Have I got that the right way round? Or should it be "objective?]
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?
Yes of course, the school trips sound like great fun. But to be honest, I have to say I didn't like her too much as a character. Everything goes too easy for her, there's not much of a conflict, and that makes her a bit too slick for me sometimes. The fact that she's a daughter of Death is great, though.

Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?
Well, the book does make the end of the world seem like a lot of fun! The Fifth Horseman named Ronnie is fun of course, but I especially liked War bickering with his wife: "Will you be careful? Oh, he gets too old for this kind of thing." Otherwise it didn't tell me much about Revelation.

If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?
I'm not enough of a fan to catch all of them, but this part of the book was quite funny. I especially liked how Lu-Tze uses the stupid clichés of his former landlady as a source of Wisdom.

How important is Chaos in our reality?
To me it is! One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to...

What did you think of Myria/Unity?
I liked her character, but in my opinion she could have been fleshed out more. The same thing about Jeremy. In a sense, they both are travelling down the same road: they both suffer from some kind of obsessive-compulsive orderliness in the beginning and are finding their way to humanity, culminating in the moment in which Jeremy asks Myria out. It's a shame that Pratchett didn't follow up on that more.

Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?
I don't know if I'd like to be one, but I'd sure like it when some of them could spare a couple of hours for me from time to time. I mean, it's not like these deep-sea fish are really going to miss them...


Overall, I have to say that I'm a bit on the fence about this book. There are some very funny moments, especially when Lu-Tze quotes his landlady, or in the interaction between Jeremy and Igor.

But sometimes it seems that Pratchett's dragging his jokes out for too long, especially in the second half of the book. For example, the chocolate thing was a bit overdone in my taste. Also, the Q reference was too in-your-face to me, I like it when they are more subtle.

And as I said, I think their was more potential in the Jeremy-Myriad relationship, both in story-telling and as a comic device. They are both like Pinocchio or Data in a way, starting out with complete logic but trying to find their humanity. To do that while at the same finding eachother as a shy, unexperienced couple... I just think there could have been more into that.
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

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quote:

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--Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?

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quote:

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--If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?

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Oh yes . And I don't think I'll ever forget Rule One again!

For me, the best parts of the book are when Lu-tze is teaching Lobsang what real strength and skill are.

quote:

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--How important is Chaos in our reality?

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quote:

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--What did you think of Myria/Unity?

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quote:

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--Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?

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quote:

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Marvin the Martian: Not as such, but I found the angel with the iron book who had unknowingly been written out of canon amusing!

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As I understand it, he was the fifth member who left the band before they became famous
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: Not as such, but I found the angel with the iron book who had unknowingly been written out of canon amusing!

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As I understand it, he was the fifth member who left the band before they became famous

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No, that was Ronnie. It's a nice Beatles reference though
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: No, that was Ronnie. It's a nice Beatles reference though

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quote:

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Erik: I agree with others that Myria's journy into what being a human really is was one of the more interesting threads in the book.

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I guess I must be an exception then I'm sorry, but I've seen this done better. For example, the story line reminded me a lot of the Deja Q episode in Star Trek, where the Q character goes through much the same process as Myria LeJean. I found that much funnier, even the part with the chocolate. I'm sorry.
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
I think that Pratchett is mostly about trying out ideas that are populated with characters. Character development isn't the point of the story. If you look for character journey as the main focus you will be disappointed.

Pratchett writes some very good characters, the sweeper is the best in this book I think, but they tend to be largely unchangeable. I like the multiple references and parodies, but I really like the way the book talks about the perception of time and narrative. I think it is hugely insightful about how we mentally shape our own world.

(Oh and I like that we find out what avatar Susan is - and that he doesn't equate helpfulness personified with nice.)
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
re-reading it yet again and still finding funny things - I noticed today that Lu-Tze tells Lobsang that he's not going to name him after some inscect - wasn't one of the Kung-Fu characters "Grasshopper"?
 

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Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :
 
--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

She was a bit like one or two of my teachers. I think she'd be great, but if she keeps nipping off to fill for her grandfather or save the world then God help her substitute.

--Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?

In Pratchett's version, the guys who have decided on what is currently canon are in charge of what will actually happens, and that seems a worrying thought to me.

--How important is Chaos in our reality?

What, the one who's ruled by complex maths or the one who rules in my husband's wardrobe? I think a system has to be pretty complex before we can talk about making choices, so extremely important for our perception of ourselves as thinking individuals.

--What did you think of Myria/Unity?

I don't see how she could develop altruism or courage. Why wouldn't she just run away with her new body and hide from the mess? Other than that I think she did a good job as an outsider coming into human experience for the first time.

--Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?

I do like the idea of being able to give people time. To turn up when someone is getting into real trouble and stop everything, have a chat, then get them going again, that appeals.

Was anyone else wondering how things are likely to go between Susan and the new version of Time?

Cattyish.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re "Grasshopper":

Yes, that was the nickname Master Po gave to Kwai Chang Caine, the main character. When KCC was a boy at the monastery, there was a conversation where MP was trying to get KCC to be deeply aware of things going on around and inside him. KCC said that he couldn't hear his heartbeat. Then the following:

MP: Do you hear the grasshopper at your feet?

KCC: (Looks down in surprise, and sees the grasshopper.) Old man, how is it that you hear these things?

MP: (Laughing.) Young man, how is it that you do not?



 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

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cattyish: Was anyone else wondering how things are likely to go between Susan and the new version of Time?

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After the merger between Lobsang and Jeremy, I just hope that Susan and Myria are into Time-sharing
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Think²:
(Oh and I like that we find out what avatar Susan is - and that he doesn't equate helpfulness personified with nice.)

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I missed this bit That's speed reading for you.
 

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Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
After all the advice given to me by folks on this thread, I read Wyrd Sisters and liked it very much. Since then I have also read Equal Rites, The 5th Elephant,and The Truth, in addition to Thief of Time. I have loved them all, so I thank you all for introducing me to Discworld.

That being said, I don't think I am very good at this book group discussion thing, but I will do what I can.

---I like Susan (and would love to have had her as a teacher), but my favorite character, in this or any of the books, is Death himself.

---The book does nothing at all to affect my views of the Book of Revelation, because my view of Revelation is that it was a political document and has nothing to do with actual Christianity.

---I did get a lot of the Kung Fu references but I suspect I missed a lot too.

---Chaos is one of the most important drivers of our reality. As a mathematician I (of course) have a mathematical view of Chaos, but the mathematics describe a great many things in Real Life.

---I'm sure Myria/Unity is meant to be important to the reader. She is certainly important to the story. But I agree with LeRoc that she is not fleshed out enough. Maybe that is what the author wanted us to feel. I don't know. But when I think about the book I think of her more as just a part of the story than as an actual character, if that makes sense.

---I love the whole concept of the History Monks, but our world is just not set up that way, alas.

The Sweeper and Death were definitely my favorite characters.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
snowgoose:

quote:

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---I'm sure Myria/Unity is meant to be important to the reader. She is certainly important to the story. But I agree with LeRoc that she is not fleshed out enough. Maybe that is what the author wanted us to feel. I don't know. But when I think about the book I think of her more as just a part of the story than as an actual character, if that makes sense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
They have missed this page. Connections for Lobsang's names. so far.

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quote:

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and to Ned Ludd (paralleling Lobsang's destruction of the Glass Clock with Ludd's destruction of the stocking frames).

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Looks like I was right with the Luddite connection

As for the Lobby Lud thing, the lack of any "and I claim my £5" in the story makes me suspect that it was a coincidence the name being simply made by adding Lobsang (Tibetan third eye) and Ludd (breaker of machines.

Whether the Lobby Lud connection was deliberate or not it does not have any bearing on the plot, (But then again the Jeremy Clarkson connection has no bearing on the plot either, but it is obviously there as a name pun.)
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I don't think that Pratchett would have left something like Lobby Lud hanging about ready to be picked up if he didn't want it to be spotted - especially not if he actually intended the Clarkson connection. With that, I imagine he thought of Clockson first, and then couldn't resist what followed. Jeremy is one of those names which seems out of place in Discworld.

Having spent a fruitless time with my parents and siblings searching the crowds on the Stade at Folkestone by the fish market, totally failing to spot Lobby Lud, I think it would be an appropriate name for someone who could so easily evade detection. If Pratchett had had a similar experience, it could easily have occurred to him.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Balaam:


As for the Lobby Lud thing, the lack of any "and I claim my £5" in the story makes me suspect that it was a coincidence the name being simply made by adding Lobsang (Tibetan third eye) and Ludd (breaker of machines.

Whether the Lobby Lud connection was deliberate or not it does not have any bearing on the plot,

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On the other hand, 5 is important throughout the plot, and it would be possible to turn the famous phrase round to make the challenge to Lu Tse claiming knowledge of the 5th surprise. I think Pratchett is the sort who, faced with a coincidence, is likely to work with it and take it as far as he can, which is why I find the Clarkson connection so unsatisfying.

Clockson knows, without understanding why, that he needs to behave in certain ways to be acceptable, and worries about it. To have the name echo, without a corresponding echo in the person, doesn't seem up to Pratchett's usual standard. Puns need to do more than simply sound alike to be worth the effort either of making or noticing.

(Sources on the internet on name meanings suggest that Lobsang means fine mind, disciple, or kind-hearted, which fit him, rather than third eye.)
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I lost my library book: hopefully it is somewhere around the house or in one of the cars...
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I found on rereading the book how much I like the scenes at the Monastery. Lu-Tze and Lobsang remind me of saints that their contemporaries couldn't abide like Christina the Astonishing, Joseph of Cupertino, Joan of Arc, and our own Simeon the Holy Fool. They are so outside the box, they are busily duct-taping it shut.

And the Abbot is adorable: "Wanna bicket!!!"
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
A couple of resources:

-- The Mandala Project. Basic info and pics, and a ton of links to related websites.

-- Wikipedia's Mandala page. Basic info and pics. If you check out the Kalachakra link in the "See Also" section towards the bottom, you'll find out about one very special mandala.

The name means "time wheel"...


From the Kalachakra page:

quote:

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The Kalachakra tradition revolves around the concept of time (kāla) and cycles (chakra): from the cycles of the planets[citation needed], to the cycles of human breathing, it teaches the practice of working with the most subtle energies within one's body on the path to enlightenment.

The Kalachakra deity represents a Buddha and thus omniscience. Since Kalachakra is time and everything is under the influence of time, Kalachakra knows all. Whereas Kalachakri or Kalichakra, his spiritual consort and complement, is aware of everything that is timeless, untimebound or out of the realm of time. In Yab-yum, they are temporality and atemporality conjoined. Similarly, the wheel is without beginning or end.[1]

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quote:

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Pleased to meet you. Let me guess your name.

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OK, so it's a Stones track, not Beatles, but the song fits rather well to Chaos/Kaos. (Of course, I then end up with the track as an earworm )

Surprised no-one's linked to the L-Space site yet. Main (or only?) Pratchett fan site. I have no connection to the site, just find it interesting to dip in and out of sometimes.
 

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Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
First time I've read this novel and I really enjoyed it. Most of the Kung Fu references probably went over my head and I didn't understand all the mandala/procrastinator stuff, but the basic story was fun.

I love the idea of a fifth horseman who left before they became famous. Apart from that, it didn't really remind me of the book of Revelation, though. The Angel who got written out was funny.

Susan is one of my favourite characters, along with Death and the Death of Rats. It was good to find out her weakness for chocolates. I would have lived to be in her class, but I think she would have been pretty intimidating!

The abbott was great fun (BIKKIT! Wanna 'lephant!). All in all, a great read. Thanks for suggesting it.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Celtic Knotweed:

Surprised no-one's linked to the L-Space site yet. Main (or only?) Pratchett fan site. I have no connection to the site, just find it interesting to dip in and out of sometimes.

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That used to be one of my favourite sites, but last time I looked it didn't seem to have been updated for ages.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I love so much about this book! I think it’s some of TP’s best plotting. I love the monks, monastery, and the “Kung Fu” series allusions. There’s an Igor! And Death! And I’ve grown to love Susan.

It’s also fun that the story ranges all over the Unnamed Continent of Disc World.


--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

Yes! Though I’d probably team her up with the one from “Chasing Vermeer”.


--Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?

Revelation is in my “don’t know” stack…but I loved it when Death said that the horsemen had to ride out—but nothing said against whom



--If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?

Yes, Grasshopper.


--How important is Chaos in our reality?

Hmmm...if we're talking KAOS, then consult Maxwell Smart. (In the old "Get Smart" series, Max was a spy who fought against the group called KAOS.)

Otherwise, we'll just have to wait and see what emerges.



--What did you think of Myria/Unity?

Love her. Brave being.

One odd thing: in one of the other books (“The Fifth Elephant”, IIRC), there’s a vampire named Unity—one of the reformed ones, I think. She’s just mentioned in passing; but I hope that, after all she went through, Myria/Unity didn’t wind up as a vampire!


--Could we use some History Monks in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?

We probably could use them, at least in the sense of nudging things in the right direction. I think it would be fun to be a History Nun—or a Voyager, from the old “Voyagers!” TV series. “We travel through time to help history along.”
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Beethoven:
. I've already noticed one pun that I'd skipped over on my several earlier readings...

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Just finished re-reading and, silly me, for the first time noticed the major pun involving the title!

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Ok, will someone please enlighten me about the title pun? Don't think I caught it.

Thanks!
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
It took me a bit of thought - try googling thief of time proverb - at least, I assume that's what they're on about.

[ 01. August 2012, 07:34: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
Do they mean "Procrastination is the thief of time"?
 

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Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
Sorry for the double post, but I do know that isn't a pun, just a proverb, so if there is something else anyone knows of, I would love to know too. Some of Pratchett's references are not clear to a lot of Americans (like me).
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
There's a folk song about letting no man steal a girl's thyme, but it doesn't seem relevant. I don't remember any thyme, or what it stands for (see also cherry - definitely a red herring with regard to Lu Tse, as sometimes a cherry is only a cherry, and very nice too). I suppose Wen could be said to have stolen Time's thyme, but it seems to have been less of theft, more a gift.

Please explain - I sense I am pushing the boundaries of sense far too far here. Some of Pratchett's references aren't too clear this side of the pond either, like stuff in the Olympic Opening Ceremony. One needs to have read all he has read, seen all he has seen, and heard all he has heard to pick it all up.

The procrastinators steal time. Unity procrastinates about her mission, which is to abduct and imprison Time. Puns need words which sound the same - thief has none, time only one. I'm stuck on this.

[ 02. August 2012, 09:16: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by snowgoose:
Do they mean "Procrastination is the thief of time"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:

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Originally posted by snowgoose:
Do they mean "Procrastination is the thief of time"?

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While 'just' is a worrying word with Prachett, the pun spotted may just have been related to Ludd's former profession and kleptomania.

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Yes that was what I meant anyway. To my shame it took several readings before the double meaning of the Procrastinators dawned on me.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ok, thx. So no big secret then. Whew!

(Sparrow, you can ignore the PM I sent you. Your post took care of it. I just hadn't seen it yet!)
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Did anyone get a chance to look at any of this? There's some cool stuff, IMHO.

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
A couple of resources:

-- The Mandala Project. Basic info and pics, and a ton of links to related websites.

-- Wikipedia's Mandala page. Basic info and pics. If you check out the Kalachakra link in the "See Also" section towards the bottom, you'll find out about one very special mandala.

The name means "time wheel"...


From the Kalachakra page:

quote:

---

The Kalachakra tradition revolves around the concept of time (kāla) and cycles (chakra): from the cycles of the planets[citation needed], to the cycles of human breathing, it teaches the practice of working with the most subtle energies within one's body on the path to enlightenment.

The Kalachakra deity represents a Buddha and thus omniscience. Since Kalachakra is time and everything is under the influence of time, Kalachakra knows all. Whereas Kalachakri or Kalichakra, his spiritual consort and complement, is aware of everything that is timeless, untimebound or out of the realm of time. In Yab-yum, they are temporality and atemporality conjoined. Similarly, the wheel is without beginning or end.[1]

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--I mentioned that there are references to the old "Kung-Fu" series. Kungfu-Guide is a fan site, with tons of quotes from the show.

-- IMDB site for "Kung Fu".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
My favourite character has to be Death of Rats - wish i could find a Halloween costume of him. Igor is also well-drawn, smarter than you'd think! Still not done reading, but thought I'd contribute my tuppence....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:

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Originally posted by snowgoose:
Do they mean "Procrastination is the thief of time"?

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While 'just' is a worrying word with Prachett, the pun spotted may just have been related to Ludd's former profession and kleptomania.

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Yes that was what I meant anyway. To my shame it took several readings before the double meaning of the Procrastinators dawned on me.

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I also wonder if the title is also a warning, that once you pick up the book it will steal your time from you - especially if you aren't used to Pratchett's no-chapter-breaks style.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Thanks to everyone for a great discussion!


Feel free to continue, if you like. And if anyone missed the main discussion, please jump in!

 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Finally finished the book a few days ago: it was fascinating in places but a bit difficult to get through. That said, I never did finish the previous book club book: methinks I prefer short stories!
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Finally finished the book a few days ago: it was fascinating in places but a bit difficult to get through. That said, I never did finish the previous book club book: methinks I prefer short stories!
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Beethoven:
. I've already noticed one pun that I'd skipped over on my several earlier readings...

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Just finished re-reading and, silly me, for the first time noticed the major pun involving the title!

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Ok, will someone please enlighten me about the title pun? Don't think I caught it.

Thanks!

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Talking about puns in Discworld titles ... I've just been tidying my bookcase and reached down Thief of Time, and right next to it was "Witches Abroad" - and the penny dropped for the first time with that one too!



 

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Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :
 

quote:

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Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

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quote:

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Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?

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quote:

---

If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?

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quote:

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How important is Chaos in our reality?

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quote:

---

What did you think of Myria/Unity?

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quote:

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Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? )

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quote:

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Would you like to be one?

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