Ship of Fools: September book: The Daughter of Time

Thread: September book: The Daughter of Time Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The book to read and discuss this September is Josephine Tey's The Daughter of Time which we've chosen to tie in with the Hollow Crown series and because I wanted to reread it after seeing Richard III this summer at the Globe. It's part detective story, part historical investigation. And if you've never read Josephine Tey, she's worth discovering too.

Questions about the book posted from about the 20th September. (I've already reread it and have found some things to ask .. I just need to remember to do this)

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

I love that book and have read it many times.

Moo

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

I love it too but don't have a copy -- must have read it from the library originally. This is a good excuse to buy it, probably as an ebook.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

Count me in. This is one I re-read fairly regularly - every few years.

Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on :

Curiously, this is right on time [Smile]

I'm walking to my library this morning to surrender a couple of books and some magazines and was wondering what I could pick up to read next. I see they have two copies of this shelved, so I'll be in for this one.

Posted by birdie (# 2173) on :

Ooh, this is a great book. I think I've got a copy somewhere... If I find it in the next week or so, I'm in.

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

It's on the shelves, worth a reread I think.

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

Count me in, I really like Josephine Tey.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

Long time since I read the book, but I've read a lot around the subject recently, so may join in if the discussion goes that way.

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

I haven't joined in book club discussions before, but being a member of the Richard III Society [Smile]

I may butt in too, if that's ok.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

I can get it for NOOK from Amazon for $10 US - is that a fair price?

Posted by Ann (# 94) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I can get it for NOOK from Amazon for $10 US - is that a fair price?

If you register (free) on MobileRead, you can download it for free for several formats - this link is readable by Kindle - but they have other formats.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

Finished- how fascinating!
Looking forward to the discussion.

Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on :

I've completed it as well ~ the author was new to me, but I so liked this book I'm going to borrow whatever else my library has available. I can't believe how easily I escaped right into the plot. [Smile]

Posted by hilaryg (# 11690) on :

I needed a short book to take with me today, and I've not read this for a while. Halfway through now. Like Curiosity, I also saw Richard III at the Globe this season, so excellent timing.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Scarlet, I've read most of the Josephine Tey books I can lay my hands on - Brat Farrar still really gets to me.

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

Scalet - I'd recommend Miss Pym Disposes. Good detective novel and interesting from a philosophical point of view too.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

My three favorites are Brat Farrar, The Franchise Affair, and The Daughter of Time.

Moo

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

Daughter of Time, Miss Pym Disposes, and the Franchise Affair are my top 3 favourites. I have just re-read D of T, but wil read it yet again, to gear up for the discussion. I am about to read the Singing Sands for the first time, but that can wait.

My less serous reading group theme for the next meet is 'Recommend a favourite book'. Needless to say, I am recommendig Josephine Tey, along with Nancy Mitfords Love in a Cold Climate and Pursuit of Love.

Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on :

Curiously, neither Miss Pym Disposes nor The Franchise Affair are available in my entire library system. I can request a couple of different ones from other branches, which I will.

Happily, I was able to check out Brat Farrar, and it looks stunning! I hope it's as spellbinding as the cover suggests. I'll start in tonight. [Smile]

Posted by hilaryg (# 11690) on :

This news about Richard III may be of interest and relevance.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

I first read this as a teenager when my grandparents gave it to me to read and I have revisited it several times since. In grade 11, we studied Richard III and I had a chance to play Richard in the wooing scene. Daughter of Time is one of those books that drags you along and is almost impossible to put down.

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

quote:
Originally posted by hilaryg:
This news about Richard III may be of interest and relevance.

As an ardent Ricardian I am very excited about this dig - it seems almost too good to be true that Richard's remains may have been found, and much research needs to be done on the bones first.

The Daughter of Time is a good read, and presents a lot of interesting debate.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Having written the questions, I think I'm going to start two threads, one here to discuss the book and one in Purgatory to discuss the wider issues, particularly because there's so much in the news.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

<=== Need I say more? I read Tey's book decades ago, and this started me on a long quest to discover the truth. It is now settled in my mind. I am fascinated that they think they have discovered the grave of the last King of the English, and I will be watching this thread and any Purgatorial thread with interest

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

Just checked out the university library's copy and will re-read it on the weekend. Always a pleasant treat.

Posted by Keren-Happuch (# 9818) on :

I haven't read Daughter of Time lately, but it was reading it at an impressionable age that made me ardently pro-Richard.

I'll also keep an eye on both threads with interest.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

So, having been overtaken by events, I've posted the question I was going to ask in Purgatory on this thread - and it's asking if we still need to rehabilitate the reputation of Richard III. There were tangents going into that direction, as well as a discussion as to how he should be buried should it have been his bones found.

Posted by Mili (# 3254) on :

I thought I'd missed joining in this month as I accidentally read the thread wrong on on my phone at the library and read October's book early! Then later when I checked there were no library copies available.

Thanks to the thread in Purg I realised I too read this book years ago when I was a teenager. My Mum had borrowed it from the library so I don't have my own copy to read. However now that I remember what a good book it was I think I'll have to reread it. I'll at least try to join in the discussion from what I remember.

I think it inspired me to think more critically about historical stories and sources and consider who they were written by (useful when I ended up studying history at university) and also to read further about the mysterious murder of the two princes.

Posted by birdie (# 2173) on :

My copy hasn't turned up yet post-move, but I saw a copy in a charity shop today for a couple of pounds, so I'm in!

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
I thought I'd missed joining in this month as I accidentally read the thread wrong on on my phone at the library and read October's book early! Then later when I checked there were no library copies available.

And now I've gone and moved October's book to January!

Posted by Mili (# 3254) on :

I'll be well prepared for January then! [Smile]

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

I've just downloaded the book to our iMac's Kindle app and begun reading. I have a lot of days off and will try to finish it by the end of next week.

Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on :

It really doesn't take very long to read.

Due to my "special ability" I have trouble parsing my way through a lot of literature now. I used to read a book a night. I think I finished this one overnight...

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I read this, and then later re-read it, long ago (and really should have had the sense to add it to my personal library). Is it too late to join in, given that I'll have to re-read it?

Posted by birdie (# 2173) on :

I bought a copy yesterday and finished it this afternoon, so I should think you'll be fine!

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Porridge, the discussion isn't starting until 20th September, as usual, and you can join in whenever you've finished. For some books the discussion continues into the next month - The Lieutenant by Kate Greville was like that.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

I finished it on Saturday. It was as much of a pleasure as all of my previous readings of it.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Am enjoying it. Day off, so I shall read much.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I now recall that this book inspired in me an urgent desire to find primary instead of secondary sources when I undertook school-days research.

[ 17. September 2012, 21:02: Message edited by: Porridge ]

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

Half way through it and dismayed to remember how fiendishly complicated all the background is - all those Plantagenets, Nevilles and Woodvilles!

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

It is puzzling to me too! Not to mention the going back and forth from the history book with its royals to a commoner in the present day...

Posted by hilaryg (# 11690) on :

There are quite a few family trees for Richard III out in google-land. I like info in diagram form, helps me remember who's who.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

OK - nearly 20th September and the Purgatory thread is ongoing, so time for questions here:

Did you think that the narrative structure worked? What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances?
What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs?
Daughter of Time was written in 1951, over 60 years ago. How much is this a book of its time, and is it still worth reading today, particularly reading with teenage daughters?
Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment?
One of the book club questions I found wondered how convincingly the detection methods here compare to modern detective novels, do you think you can compare this narrative to a modern detective novel?
Did you change your views about Richard III and/or written history after reading this book?
I found it interesting that this book is recommended in suggested book lists for reconnecting with your teenager daughter, do you think that this would work?

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

Well, I don't have a teenage daughter (I do have a niece in that age range). I have a hard time imagining her connecting to this book. Here'e what I suspect might stand in her way:

She selects reading with female main characters. She would find Grant a total bore, and consider Brent a nerd or a geek. She'd want some romance (Atlanta never comes "onstage.")

Also, the language differences -- in time as well as place -- would get in her way (as well as the bit of French, untranslated, which she'd regard as writerly "showing off.")

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Interesting that you're so convinced it wouldn't work with your teenage niece. My daughter, now 24, hasn't read this one, but did read Brat Farrar, which she loved and another which we suspect might have been Kif which she didn't when she was younger. If a teenager is going to be so blinkered about what is acceptable reading how are are they ever going to access the classics? And that explains a lot about how difficult it is to teach English literature in English schools.

Answering the questions

Did you think that the narrative structure worked? I found it an interesting way of telling this story. What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? I like the use of detective fiction that does more than just pose puzzles, so enjoyed this. What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? I hadn't really noticed that it was built that way until I researched the questions, because the action came to him. Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances? certainly the first time I read it, yes, not so much now.
What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs? This is a question I put in after the discussions on the Ship recently, when there was fury at the suggestion that it might be possible to discern character from photographs. When I was rereading the book I was wondering why this conceit was accepted here. I think I concluded that portraits are different. The portrait painter is also trying to express character in the portrayal. And it's where a lot of portrait photography is too, but not identification snapshots, which deliberately aim to avoid personality.
Daughter of Time was written in 1951, over 60 years ago. How much is this a book of its time, and is it still worth reading today? Rereading it this time I was really noticing the details that dated it, which was why I asked the question, but I still did think it was worth reading the book for the way it told the story.
Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment? I do think it's one of the better detective stories that I've read, and others here were reacting similarly.
One of the book club questions I found wondered how convincingly the detection methods here compare to modern detective novels, do you think you can compare this narrative to a modern detective novel? I didn't think it was comparable, but wondered what others thought.
Did you change your views about Richard III and/or written history after reading this book? I definitely did the first time I read it - and have been involved in primary sources research since.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[list=1]
[*]Did you think that the narrative structure worked? What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances?

For me the narrative structure worked well. The fairly simple device of "delaying" visitors -- perfectly believable in the context of Grant's hospitalization, where time (and perhaps her daughters!) does indeed hang heavy while one's busy friends are squeezing visits into their schedules -- here works well. And I for one disagree that Grant was inactive; he kept his questioning mind and imagination (and Carradine!)busy.

I confess it did bother me a bit that Brent was carrying out all this footwork at the BM and then essentially begging Grant's permission to write the book.

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

I enjoyed the book as much as I did the first time around. In the first reading, I read for plot, and was fascinated- this is when was about 14/15. The concept of history being written by the victors, who could be unreliable narrators, was new to me at that age. It has stood me in good stead ever since! My A level History Mistress was equally clear on this point. She was a Marxist, so, 'she would, wouldn't she?'

I had almost forgotten that there was a modern day plot- the Richard 3 story is so
compelling.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

I read it many years ago. I still remember it, and where I read it, so it must have grabbed me.
I'd say it bears many similarities to The Da Vinci Code, only more intelligent and much better written. The procedure of parcelling out information, chasing false leads, and so on, is a good structure for interesting your readership in your argument and for keeping them reading along. At the same time, I think now that it's just a little bit too pat. A detective story has a puzzle with a clear solution. That can make the historical evidence seem over-clear.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[*]What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs?

Initially, I found this an alienating note, as I think of this as a quaint antique and utterly mistaken idea. However, Tey (through Grant) amended and fuzzied the notion up enough to make it (just barely) acceptable for contemporary consumption.

I thik the question about portraits takes us to two very different levels. First, it means we're looking at the face-in-question through another's eyes, so we're seeing someone else's "version" of the subject. Yet there's little, if anything, we can know about that other person's perspective. How do we know of the painter had an agenda? A biased or prejudiced view of the subject? In this instance, after all, it was not only the painter's reaction(s) to Richard, but other viewers' responses to the portrait, that set the inquiry in motion.

Second, though, the fact that 400 years and assorted cultural upheavals separate viewer and portrait (with little if any effort to "compensate" for the differences in perception this might entail) seems to me to be swept aside rather casually.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[*]Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment?

I doubt I can address this; I've read a lot of detective stories but am no expert. What I suspect, though, is that Tey's use of very different forms of evidence and reasoning than are usually encountered in this genre make it among the most original of its kind.

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
OK - nearly 20th September and the Purgatory thread is ongoing, so time for questions here:

[*]What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs?

I've posted on the Doctor thread but I'll revisit it here - if you do as Grant suggests on the final page and just LOOK at the face in the portrait for a while .... it looks exactly like Matt Smith!

[Biased]

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

Yes, he does rather! And he's 30 next month, the age Richard was on becoming king. I think people forget how young Richard was (dead at 32), when the popular perception is of actors like Olivier (47 when his film was made) or, Lord help us, Kevin Spacey (who's 53!).

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
OK - nearly 20th September and the Purgatory thread is ongoing, so time for questions here:

Did you think that the narrative structure worked? What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances?
What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs?
Daughter of Time was written in 1951, over 60 years ago. How much is this a book of its time, and is it still worth reading today, particularly reading with teenage daughters?
Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment?
One of the book club questions I found wondered how convincingly the detection methods here compare to modern detective novels, do you think you can compare this narrative to a modern detective novel?
Did you change your views about Richard III and/or written history after reading this book?
I found it interesting that this book is recommended in suggested book lists for reconnecting with your teenager daughter, do you think that this would work?

1) Yes; yes that worked too; I'm not sure there was a lot of suspense about Grant's recovery.

2) I take it with a grain of salt but I think Tey does a reasonable job of explaining this.

3) It was very old-fashioned in 1982 when I read it and even more so now. A young modern reader might need some explanations but I think it has aged moderately well.

4) Definitely

5) Depends on what type of modern detective novels you're reading, of course.

6) Absolutely, without a question, it rocked my world.

7) I'm not really seeing that, although if the girl goes for history or the shy/cute slightly nerdy type, Brent could be a real draw.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[*]One of the book club questions I found wondered how convincingly the detection methods here compare to modern detective novels, do you think you can compare this narrative to a modern detective novel?

It certainly bears little resemblance to the typical police procedural, except as it pertains to reasoning out why X would do Y. To resemble a modern detective novel, there'd have to more technological involvement. This is primarily a matter of asking, reasoning, and searching out primary source materials.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[*]Did you change your views about Richard III and/or written history after reading this book?

Yes to both, though these changes occurred for me long ago, when I first read it.

Having had a little opportunity to do a little minor research in the years since, I have to say that Brent's burrowings in the BM in this novel (of course, we don't actually watch him at this) look like a cakewalk, and may give a false impression of the ease with which this kind of information can be dug up and threaded together. For one thing, the originals one looks at are often almost indecipherable; even when they are, you can't depend on either the language (Latin and French were still common then) or the orthography even when items are in English.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[*]I found it interesting that this book is recommended in suggested book lists for reconnecting with your teenager daughter, do you think that this would work?

I find this notion entirely surprising, and suspect that someone had read only the title. Perhaps British teenaged daughters are a different breed; but I see zero rationale for this suggestion. I'm thinking of all the US teenage Twi-hard girls lapping up that series, and while they'd be better off reading this instead, I don't see how they'd take to it.

I think this might be a good book to share, as someone suggested above, with a bookish history-obsessed (or maybe Shakespeare-obsessed) teenager of either gender. Maybe someone should write Tey a sequel featuring Brent and Atlanta getting drawn into a further mystery of their own, trying to find the boys' remains.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

TDoT is often recommended for students who are entering the Advanced Placement History course, specifically to introduce/reinforce the ideas of reading for context, going to primary sources and not trusting that everyone writes the absolute truth.

But students in the AP program are not "average", particularly not social-obsessed to the detriment of their studying.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

OK, just finished my reread and thoroughly enjoyed it:

Did you think that the narrative structure worked? What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances?

I don't think there's real suspense in the sense that someone who reads detective novels hoping for action, thrills, and a sense of peril would hope for. It's an intellectual mystery, and the suspense is in finding out what will be revealed and what Grant and Carradine will learn next, not whodunit.

What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs?

This is my one big quarrel with the book (which I loved on first reading and enjoyed just as much now, 25+ years later). I don't believe this and I never have. I think Shakespeare was dead-on when he said, "There's no art to find the mind's construction in the face." I think the idea of re-examining Richard's record is great, but getting into it via looking at his portrait and believing he could never have committed such a heinous crime is completely unconvincing to me.

Daughter of Time was written in 1951, over 60 years ago. How much is this a book of its time, and is it still worth reading today, particularly reading with teenage daughters?

If your teenaged daughter likes history (as I did when I was a teenager) I'd say go for it. I was probably 18-19 when I read it. But the modern part of the story is very dated -- there's a lot of casual classism and, even more blatantly, sexism (not helped at all by having a female author -- I don't know if Tey was just trying to be very accurate in portraying Grant's view of women or if, like many women of her generation, she really had that kind of ingrained sexism herself.

Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment?

It's certainly not a standard detective story, but as an intellectual puzzle I think it's very well-put-together.

One of the book club questions I found wondered how convincingly the detection methods here compare to modern detective novels, do you think you can compare this narrative to a modern detective novel?

Don't know as I don't read many modern detective novels. I guess the only way you could apply real "modern methods" to a case this old would be if you could find the remains of those bodies that were allegedly found in the Tower and do DNA testing to confirm that they were the princes. But that still wouldn't tell you who killed them and I don't think it would even be able to pinpoint exactly when, so you wouldn't be much farther ahead.

Did you change your views about Richard III and/or written history after reading this book?

I am trying really hard to remember in what order I came to the Richard III story, but I think I read Sharon Kay Penman's excellent novel The Sunne in Splendour first, then The Daughter of Time. I don't think you could read the SKP novel and come away as anything other than a hardcore Ricardian and since that was really my first exposure to the story, having not had much British history in my education and only heard of Richard III in the vaguest way (I also hadn't seen or read the Shakespeare play, so I wasn't predisposed to think of him as a villain), that set my expectations a certain way. Daughter of Time just confirmed what I already believed and gave me more reasons for that belief.

***

I'd love to hear how people who are more knowledgeable about the actual history analyze Grant's reading of the primary sources in this case. It seems to me that his whole case (apart from liking Richard's face) hinges mainly on the fact that Henry VII never mentioned the murders in his Bill of Attainder. Is that as convincing a point as Grant thinks it is? It seems that when Carradine and Grant uncover an actual contemporary accusation from Richard's own time, it's brushed aside rather quickly and conveniently -- that bothered me a little on this rereading.

A couple of other things I wondered about: Was the average English person in 1951 (when the book was published and presumably set) really as well informed about history as all the minor characters in this novel seem to be? Everyone Grant asks has an opinion about Richard, and quite a few of them can name other characters in the saga. I can't think of any significant even in the distant past that that many average working people today would have a clear enough knowledge of to form such strong opinions (and remember so much from their school history lessons!). Is it just for narrative convenience or do you think that's realistic?

I also wondered if any of the books Grant reads in the course of his research -- The Rose of Raby, or the unfortunate Mr. Oliphant's history, or any of the others, are real books? I wasn't able to find out but I did only google very quickly.

Finally, for anyone who's interested in this story, likes a big juicy historical novel, and hasn't already read it, I very highly recommend the above-mentioned The Sunne in Splendour. If the book has a fault it is in painting Richard as a bit too much of a hero -- so entirely unambitious and uninterested in power that it's a bit of a shock when he actually does take the crown. But it's a very good read nonetheless. I've reread it several times and it often moves me to tears as the inevitable end nears.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

OK, total tangent on how steeped in history we are in the UK. We do really still remember "Dick the Bad*" who murdered the Princes in the Tower, along with Richard of York Gave Battle in Vain for remembering the colours of the rainbow. History in the 1950s was taught by Kings and Queens - it's changed to be more thematic. But certainly that was the school history of the time.

We're surrounded by history and imbibe it continuously from the buildings and landscape around us. We have fields that still show the mediaeval farming ridges and methods - I learnt to survey at primary school plotting one of these fields. Historical tales are our folklore. We get told stories, often inaccurate, about our surroundings and history. There are brown signs everywhere marking landmarks and battle sites, we dig into the ground and find pottery sherds and cannon balls. There's a field locally which yields pottery from 13th century to Victorian times when it's ploughed, just from walking the footpath - clay pipes, black glaze, spongeware. Our church buildings date back 1000 years and more - I attended St Peter's, Monkwearmouth when I lived in Sunderland - it was built in 674 and was part of the monastery where Bede was first made novice. I've spent a week on Lindisfarne where the monastery was founded in 635.

I went to an open day at Spitalfields dig a few years ago. The ground was littered with oyster shells, CBM† and other archaeological remains that had been discarded. The Americans there could not believe that we had so much history in the ground that we could throw so much of it away.

As an aside, this is why historical accuracy in our books is important to us, even novels, and a bit of vagueness about dates or events means, for example, Phillipa Gregory does not have a good reputation after the inaccuracies in The Other Boleyn Girl.

† CBM - ceramic building material - bits of brick, tile and other man made building stuff.

* The rhyme for remembering the kings and queens of England from 1066 and William the Conqueror goes:

Willy, Willy, Harry, Stee
Harry, Dick, John, Harry 3,
1, 2, 3 Neds, Richard 2,
Harry 4, 5, 6 then who?
Edward 4, 5, Dick the Bad,
Harrys twain and Ned the Lad,
Mary, Bessie, James the Vain,
Charlie, Charlie, James again,
William and Mary, Anna Gloria,
4 Georges, William and Victoria,

now the version from here I know is the one my mother taught me and is out of date:

Edward the 7th and George 5
Both whose sons still survive
Edward the 8th who abdicated
And George the 6th, who's now instated
And when King George has had his day
A new Good Queen Bess will hold sway

[ 23. September 2012, 07:00: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

Thanks for the rhyme! I remember my brother chanting it when he came back from school but I never learned it myself.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

Rosy of Raby is a real book; haven't checked out the others mentioned, but suspect they're real as well.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The Thomas More is, and I found references to the Dr Gairdner book when I was arguing the case on the Purgatory thread on Richard III

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Yes, I knew the Thomas More one was but wasn't sure about the more recent authors. I found a novel online called The Rose of Raby but with a different author name than that given in the book.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

1. I think the narrative structure was a very clever way of writing a detective story.
Lying in a hospital bed without being able to move meant that Grant had time to think and analyse.
Good thing he had regular visitors who talked to him about things other than his condition and the weather.

2.The portrait was a good jumping off point for the investigation. Richard does look benign in this.
I like to think that I can tell character from a face, but have often been wrong. Grant could have been too.

3. It is a dated book.
The fastidious use of hyphens irritated me to start with,e.g. gun-flash, tin-opener, brand-new, six-feet-odd.
The bringing in of flowers to the hospital, which isn't allowed now, plus the nurse's alacrity in putting them in vases!
Oh, lots of aspects are out of date, but this gave it character; definitely worth reading today.
I can't think why this book would be particularly worth recommending to a teenage girl, unless, as others have said , she was studying history.

4.I don't know if I would call it one of the
top detective stories of all time.It is an engrossing puzzle which can change the way the reader sees history.

5. No, it can't be compared to a modern detective novel. It stands on its own.

6.We briefly touched on Richard III in history lessons before embarking on the Tudors.
But I did have the preconception that he caused the death of his nephews in the tower, and that he was a hunchback. I blame Shakespeare for the blackening of his name.Political pressure at the time, no doubt.
I liked the way Grant asked the nurses and his visitors what they knew about Richard . I tried it on Mr Bee and he knew even less than me.He knew about the battle of Bosworth though as that's where he was born!

I hadn't heard those rhymes before as ways to remember the Kings and Queens.
A good memory aid, but also a way to spread historical propaganda.

I found the book fascinating on the subject of historical research and particularly on using primary sources.
Plus reading this at the time of the Leicester excavations made it more vivid.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I've got a whole load of those rhymes memorised alongside that one that give me rough dates for much of UK history and a bit of a mental structure to hang other things. Some reigns I remember the dates for, others I know a rhyme for key dates.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

I loved this book, and learned a lot from it, including the danger of being too respectful of received wisdom. It made me re-think a lot of things, but, in the years since I last re-read it, the only lasting big change in my view is that Thomas More was not a very nice man -that's been borne out by other sources. I love Shakespeare's play and am happy to forgive him for the fact that it isn't history (what fascinates me is whether he knew how unreliable it was; I think he did.) Because I agree that Richard was not a monster, but it is IMHO really quite likely that he did this monstrous thing.

As regards the narrative structure - I think it's masterly, although between the first and second reading, I must admit that I had forgotten most of the outer layer, mainly because I was so gripped by the history.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Interesting that you're so convinced it wouldn't work with your teenage niece. My daughter, now 24, hasn't read this one, but did read Brat Farrar, which she loved and another which we suspect might have been Kif which she didn't when she was younger. If a teenager is going to be so blinkered about what is acceptable reading how are are they ever going to access the classics? And that explains a lot about how difficult it is to teach English literature in English schools.

Our daughter is no longer a teenager: she was born in 1979. I was planning to talk to my niece today or tomorrow about her exploits at the Pasadena Jet Propulsion Laboratory to see if she is up for a flight to Mars in a decade or so: she is 15 now and seems more interested in science, mathematics and medicine than history. She has been to England more than once and may well have read the Shakespeare play.

Still struggling with the Kindle app but should finish Monday...

I should be able to join the general discussion no later than Tuesday evening.

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

Fascinating to read everyones responses to the book. Having read the book when I was a young teen, I was relieved to find I enjoyed it just as much after all these years.
I am not sure if I am convinced one way or another, but it is an interesting theory.
I have 'The Singing Sands', another Inspector Grant story, and am prompted to re-read it. Miss Pym Disposes is another favourite of mine, and Brat Farrer is on my 'to read' list.

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

Trudy - as someone who knows the period, I think it is highly significant that this potential ammo wasn't used in the bill of charges against the dead Richard (instead of the backdating trick). If it had happened, it would have been cried in the streets. It's not like Richard's people were around any more to surpress it (similarly to how Stillington finally came clean after Edward died) and Henry would have greatly benefitted from the info as well.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

It's Tuesday evening, I worked late and I am just back from choir practice at the Irish Cultural Center. We are sing on Saturday and I have no time to read until late tomorrow!

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

I read this book first as a teenager. I can't remember if my mum recommended it, though I do remember her recommending the Rogue Herries series and Daphne Du Maurier. I enjoyed it then and I enjoyed it now. On paper it shouldn't really 'work', a detective story set in one room with an immobile detective but it does. I must say this time round I was very confused by all the history, but I think I 'got' it in the end. Tey's writing is so good that she carries you along with her.

My favourite portrayal of Richard in fiction is in R.L. Stevenson's The Black Arrow. Richard in that book is ruthless, but basically honest. Loved by his own side and hated by his enemies.

[ETA fixed link, DT, Host]

[ 27. September 2012, 20:06: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Still nearly done, but my wife has schoolwork to compose on our computer and that takes precedence. I should have a comment or two to make on Friday!

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