Ship of Fools: Buried Spitfires and Urban Myths

Thread: Buried Spitfires and Urban Myths Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=023704

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

One of the most long-lived urban myths is that of the WWII Harley-Davidson motorcycles still in crates and available at bargain prices.

Now, it appears that someone has discovered a cache of well-preserved WWII Spitfires - reported numbers vary from twenty to 140 - buried in Burma.

This might still turn out to be a hoax, but if genuine, it represents to people like myself with a puerile, arrested-development schoolboy mentality, an incredibly exciting dream come true.

Anyone else know of a pooh-poohed (Stephen Fry as General Malchett) urban myth which turned out to be true?

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

If it's an urban myth, it isn't true by definition. Same applies here. The myth isn't true, you've just found a claim which you think resembles it in some way, and is yet to be debunked. That's about as far from an urban myth turning out to be true as you can get.

As for the Spitfires, have you got a source for the claim? I'd expect this to be big news, not something to be circulated by email.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

The Spitfires in Burma story has been circulating in the serious papers for a couple of years. I read this just yesterday.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Here's the report in the Daily Telegraph:

Buried Spitfires in Burma

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
As for the Spitfires, have you got a source for the claim? I'd expect this to be big news, not something to be circulated by email.

Given the involvement of the UK Government, this one MIGHT have some substance to it. Certainly one of the people on the forum there is a major force in the world of Spitfire history, and has considerable experience in getting Spitfires out of Burma and, if he is not pooh-poohing the story I for one am interested enough to wait and see. There have been a few aircraft literally unearthed and restored to fly, even Spitfires.

Where were we? Oh yes, Heaven - it's meant to be light-hearted. I'm always amused by the plethora of secret passages between the unlikeliest if places and the local church/castle/pub.

AG

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
If it's an urban myth, it isn't true by definition. Same applies here. The myth isn't true, you've just found a claim which you think resembles it in some way, and is yet to be debunked. That's about as far from an urban myth turning out to be true as you can get.

You're absolutely correct of course, TGG.

But hey, who in their right mind wouldn't want something as cool as this to be true?

quote:
As for the Spitfires, have you got a source for the claim? I'd expect this to be big news, not something to be circulated by email.

It's on the internet, so it must be true.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Hope they drained the oil before they buried them.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

They might not be buried but one hellluva lot of military hardware has been dumped over the side of ships, lend-lease equipment at the end of WW2 being a prime example.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Has anyone explained how they came to be buried in Burma?

Moo

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Has anyone explained how they came to be buried in Burma?

Moo

They were probably buried by the British between the end of WW2 but before Burmese independence (1948) to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. There would have been plenty of holes in the ground in a war zone. By 1948 we didn't need Spitfires, so it wasn't worth flying or shipping them home.

Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :

I like a series of books by Tom Cotter that started with The Cobra In the Barn. Each chapter is about a "barn find" where someone finds a rare car locked away in a barn, garage, storage shed, or rotting under a tree in a yard. Sometimes it takes years from the discovery to the purchase, depending on the owner. For old car people, these stories are what keep us slowing down to look in open garages, barns, and yards whenever we travel.

For motorcycle junkies, there's a bool titled The Vincent In The Barn

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Heck, that idea has spawned at least one American reality show, American Pickers, about a small company that scours the countryside for treasure in old barns. More shows if you count the Storage Wars ilk.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

The spitfire story must be true as Chris Evans was talking about it on Radio 2 this morning [Smile]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

There is an urban myth around these rural parts that somewhere buried locally is a large number of cattle infected with Anthrax .

Part of Churchill's germ-warfare experiments. Not quite as glamorous as a cache of Spitfires , but you know war was war . If Hitler had succeeded in developing the H-bomb then "nothing would have been off the table", (as David Cameron said recently re. Iran).

Not very Heavenish I afraid .

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There is an urban myth around these rural parts that somewhere buried locally is a large number of cattle infected with Anthrax .

You live on Gruinard?

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
I like a series of books by Tom Cotter that started with The Cobra In the Barn. Each chapter is about a "barn find" where someone finds a rare car locked away in a barn, garage, storage shed, or rotting under a tree in a yard. Sometimes it takes years from the discovery to the purchase, depending on the owner. For old car people, these stories are what keep us slowing down to look in open garages, barns, and yards whenever we travel.

For motorcycle junkies, there's a bool titled The Vincent In The Barn

I seem to recall an urban myth from the Vietnam War era in which a mother sells off the possessions of her son who is killed in the fighting, and lets a mint-condition AC Cobra (or something equally desirable) go for a few hundred dollars.

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
...For old car people...

Just how old are you? [Paranoid]

One of the favorite urban myths around here turns out to be true on occasion. Every once in a while pirate gold or silver is reported to be found washed up on the beaches. Of course it's more often reported by a friend whose cousin's neighbor heard that it really happened ('I think it was an east coast beach'), and grumbled replies of 'lucky stiff' are heard.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Has anyone explained how they came to be buried in Burma?

Moo
They were probably buried by the British between the end of WW2 but before Burmese independence (1948) to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. There would have been plenty of holes in the ground in a war zone. By 1948 we didn't need Spitfires, so it wasn't worth flying or shipping them home.

That's basically what the newspapers have been reporting since I first saw the story several months ago. The aircraft were shipped to Burma towards the end of WW2, all carefully packed in shipping crates. But, by the time the reached Burma the Japanese airforce had been practically eliminated and there was no need for replacement aircraft. So they got dumped into landfill in the condition they arrived at the airfields - in their shipping crates all carefully wrapped up to keep them in good condition after a long sea voyage. Some of them would have even been dumped before the Japanese surrender, and I doubt potential Burmese independence was even a consideration.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

We'll soon find out if it's true - and yes, it is very exciting!

[Yipee]

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Has anyone explained how they came to be buried in Burma?

Moo
They were probably buried by the British between the end of WW2 but before Burmese independence (1948) to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. There would have been plenty of holes in the ground in a war zone. By 1948 we didn't need Spitfires, so it wasn't worth flying or shipping them home.
That's basically what the newspapers have been reporting since I first saw the story several months ago. The aircraft were shipped to Burma towards the end of WW2, all carefully packed in shipping crates. But, by the time the reached Burma the Japanese airforce had been practically eliminated and there was no need for replacement aircraft. So they got dumped into landfill in the condition they arrived at the airfields - in their shipping crates all carefully wrapped up to keep them in good condition after a long sea voyage. Some of them would have even been dumped before the Japanese surrender, and I doubt potential Burmese independence was even a consideration.

Yep, that's how it seems to be. And assuming the packing crates are undamaged then they will be in mint-condition. There are around 30 Spitfires in the world still able to fly so even if there are 20 then that's a big number - even more so if there are more. Moreover it's believed these are Mark XV's with the Griffin engine, so amazing aircraft.

As I understand it, there was never any real doubt they existed, the issue was that no-one knew exactly where they were. And it has taken some painstaking research to track them down.

AFZ

P.S. In the meantime... [Yipee]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Moreover it's believed these are Mark XV's with the Griffin engine, so amazing aircraft.

Not. Proper. Spitfires. Proper Spitfires have Merlin engines.

quote:

As I understand it, there was never any real doubt they existed, the issue was that no-one knew exactly where they were. And it has taken some painstaking research to track them down.

AFZ

P.S. In the meantime...

Indeed. If there are another dozen or so airworthy, then it might be worth production runs for the spares that are in desperately short supply, like some of the undercarriage parts. There could be Spitfires flying into the 22nd century!

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Moreover it's believed these are Mark XV's with the Griffin engine, so amazing aircraft.

Not. Proper. Spitfires. Proper Spitfires have Merlin engines.

quote:

As I understand it, there was never any real doubt they existed, the issue was that no-one knew exactly where they were. And it has taken some painstaking research to track them down.

AFZ

P.S. In the meantime...
Indeed. If there are another dozen or so airworthy, then it might be worth production runs for the spares that are in desperately short supply, like some of the undercarriage parts. There could be Spitfires flying into the 22nd century!

Heehee... I know what you mean Sioni, but seeing as the Griffon is essentially a further development of the Merlin and given that both the RAF and USAF used Griffon-power variants during WWII, I'm prepared to overlook this...

I fly a microlight out of Kemble and there's a beautiful Spit there... I haven't seen it fly yet...

AZZ

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

BTW... I've just checked and technically, if there are Mark XV's then they are Seafires.... but they still count!

AFZ

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
BTW... I've just checked and technically, if there are Mark XV's then they are Seafires.... but they still count!

AFZ

And you thought that was nerdy!

Did you know that ... the Griffon had the same cc (and configuration) as the Type R engine that powered the racing seaplanes in the late 1920's! In 1933 a 'de-rated' R, then named the Griffon, was tested but was not proceeded with at that time and the 1939 vintage Grifffon owed only it's size and configuration to it (otherwise being a Merlin development).

Had the 1933 Griffon been developed directly, and it looks like it could have been, then the disastrous Vulture would never have been needed, the Griffon could have powered the Avro Manchester and the Lancaster might never have been built! Maybe the Spitfire would have had c 2,000hp from the get-go and the Fairey Battle wouldn't have been a sitting duck over France in 1940.

(Remembered most of that, verified from Wikipedia and Rolls-Royce sites. Shame I can't research really useful stuff so easily!)

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
(Remembered most of that, verified from Wikipedia and Rolls-Royce sites. Shame I can't research really useful stuff so easily!)

Yeah, Wiki is your friend.

I fear you and I are in danger of hijacking this thread... [Hot and Hormonal]

I'm from Southampton originally and it amazes and disappoints me how the city has totally failed to celebrate it's link to the most famous aircraft of WWII... I mean until 1941 (I think) they were ALL built there! But you'd never know.

Anyway... to return to the OP...

Um, no, I don't know of any other 'urban-myths' that have turned out to be true... still hoping someone will find the Loch Ness Monster but I don't think it likely.

AFZ

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

There are persistent sightings of 'big cats' in Monmouthshire the Forest of Dean and here is one of the more interesting websites.

I take the view that if there really are 'up to 100' big cats out there, as 'experts' claimed in 2004, there would have been a serious operation to hunt and kill them.

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Now, it appears that someone has discovered a cache of well-preserved WWII Spitfires - reported numbers vary from twenty to 140 - buried in Burma.

I know this is a lot of 'ifs' but...

If there were 140 of them and if they were put back together and if there were armed, then in terms of number of fixed-wing combat aircraft they would constitute the 32nd largest airforce in the world, just ahead of Spain and well ahead of (among many others) Canada and Australia's air forces.

***

I realise it isn't exactly a typical 'urban myth' as we understand it, but references to something being 'as rare as a black swan' go back to classical times (Juvenal used the expression), and it was a common saying in 16th century England. The first recorded sighting by a European of a black swan was in 1697. So this could be thought of as a form of 'urban myth come true'.

Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Has anyone explained how they came to be buried in Burma?

Moo
They were probably buried by the British between the end of WW2 but before Burmese independence (1948) to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. There would have been plenty of holes in the ground in a war zone. By 1948 we didn't need Spitfires, so it wasn't worth flying or shipping them home.
That's basically what the newspapers have been reporting since I first saw the story several months ago. The aircraft were shipped to Burma towards the end of WW2, all carefully packed in shipping crates. But, by the time the reached Burma the Japanese airforce had been practically eliminated and there was no need for replacement aircraft. So they got dumped into landfill in the condition they arrived at the airfields - in their shipping crates all carefully wrapped up to keep them in good condition after a long sea voyage. Some of them would have even been dumped before the Japanese surrender, and I doubt potential Burmese independence was even a consideration.

Actually, having read Bill Slim's autobiography, I think it would have been a living issue - Burma had a sizeable collaborationist contingent attached to the Japanese Army (rather like the Indian National Army but I think a more cohesive force) until it went over en masse to the Allies when it became clear which way the wind was blowing. It then fought alongside the British but was never fully trusted. As such it wouldn't surprise me if Mountbatten didn't want such supplies falling into hands which might easily turn to ousting the British.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I'm from Southampton originally and it amazes and disappoints me how the city has totally failed to celebrate it's link to the most famous aircraft of WWII... I mean until 1941 (I think) they were ALL built there! But you'd never know.

Not quite true: what about the Solent Sky Museum ?

Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:

quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
...For old car people...
Just how old are you?

Erm...the cars are old....not me. Well, not just yet anyway.

Another Urban Myth around here (Tennessee, USA) are supposed sightings of big cats, specifically black panthers. Regular panthers (cougars, mountain lions) are known to show up from time to time though it's very rare. It's the black-furred variety that gets thr brunt of jokes on the Internet. They officially do not exist on the state, but that doesn't stop people from posting reportys about seeing them. Tennessee hunting forums invariably devolve into someone posting a picture of a black house cat walking in the woods or a 1960's "Black Panther" political activist. [Big Grin]

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I'm from Southampton originally and it amazes and disappoints me how the city has totally failed to celebrate it's link to the most famous aircraft of WWII... I mean until 1941 (I think) they were ALL built there! But you'd never know.
Not quite true: what about the Solent Sky Museum ?

Indeed. I went there when it was the Hall of Aviation!! But seriously, whilst technically I may be overstating the case very slightly - even people who live there don't know the Spitfire connection...When everywhere else that has the slightest link to the Spit jumps up and down about it.

AFZ

Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There are persistent sightings of 'big cats' in Monmouthshire the Forest of Dean and here is one of the more interesting websites.

I take the view that if there really are 'up to 100' big cats out there, as 'experts' claimed in 2004, there would have been a serious operation to hunt and kill them.

The cover story of a 'badger cull' backfired somewhat.

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:

quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:

quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
...For old car people...
Just how old are you?
Erm...the cars are old....not me. Well, not just yet anyway.

Forgive me for pulling your leg. I just couldn't help myself. [Biased]

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0