quote:

---

Originally posted by recklessrat:

At the end of this discussion, I was asked if I was interested in talking to them more about the Bible and Biblical passages about creation, when they're next in my area. I agreed, thinking it would be kind of unchristian to refuse to discuss the Bible with others (I had a cross around my neck and had told them I belonged to my church so couldn't pretend to be an atheist)! Plus I'll be back to work next week so may not be around when they return to my area anyway.

However, I'm now concerned that if I do end up having this Bible study, they are going to try and convert me. I adore my C of E church with my entire mind, body and soul, and have no desire whatsoever to be converted away from it.

---

They were trying to convert you from the first word.

Enjoy the discussion by all means. No harm in talking.

If they raise issues that may be in conflict with your experience in the C of E that bother you, raise it here or speak to your priest/mates at church.

quote:

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Originally posted by recklessrat:

On a side note, I found it interesting that on neither occasion did they come out and say 'I'm a Jehovah's Witness' (it was definitely them – the booklet had the watchtower url on it). I found that quite sad in a way that they couldn't come out and admit what they are.

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quote:

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Originally posted by recklessrat:

It was also interesting to reflect on the way they talked to me – they asked me what my thoughts were on a particular issue, then framed what their response would be to that issue in the context of what I had said – so giving my thoughts undue prominence. I suspect this tactic is quite effective in building acquaintances with some people, who are thrilled that someone seems to be placing so much importance on their personal beliefs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


You could be doing a service to your neighbours. The time they spend trying to convert you is time they are not spending bothering other people in the area.

---

All in the name of Christian Love!


 

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Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :
 
Thanks for all your replies.

Lamb Chopped:

Not a thrilling thought that I am already in their conversion process!!

I doubt my Biblical knowledge is in their league tbh, and I'm not good at debating verbally.
I think it would be a very good idea to get an experienced, knowledgeable friend from church to attend.

The problem is I don't know exactly when the JWs are coming back (just 'next week') so I can't ask a friend to come in advance. What I could do though is get the friend to come and have a cup of tea with me if I know I'll be on my own, just in case they do turn up.

It would be interesting to see their reaction to being offered Bible study at my church! When I offered a viewpoint that was blatantly heretical to them (divinely ordered evolution), that did actually cause them a moment of surprised silence before they picked up with the pre-scripted stuff again.

Moo:

Thank you. I will keep my ESV Bible (signed by Vicar and Bishop!) close at hand at all times...

Mdijon:

Your experience with the man standing just out of your field of vision is pretty disturbing. My eyesight is terrible anyway so I wouldn't be surprised if a trick like that was pulled with me. An unfamiliar black car was parked outside my house for a while this morning, so I got a bit paranoid and thought I would draw the blinds just in case!

Chive:

I agree, it's really disingenuous not to be clear about who they are. Maybe I should have considered this more before becoming engaged in conversation with them.

Evensong:

Yes, I feel very guilible now I realise that indeed, they were trying to convert me from the first word!

They haven't said anything that would make me in any way question aspects of my existing faith, so that's good. I would defo raise it here/at church if that happened though.

I see your point about not proclaiming who they are. I guess I didn't expect them to mention it straight away, but thought they might have slipped it in over the course of two conversations.

Alan Cresswell:

I like your point about doing service to my neighbours!!

Seriously though, I think it is good to engage with people and see what they believe. I've learnt a lot about JWs just through these two conversations and post-conversation googles.
I just don't want to be converted. Or for them to think I even have the potential to be converted.

So I think if I'm going to go into this, I need to go into it well-armed. Which is where Lamb Chopped's point about having an older, more knowledgeable Christian with me comes in, I think.
I think messages will have to be got out to my congregation also, as I would judge a fair few of them to be more guilible/suggestible than me, and I certainly don't want them getting into this sort of situation!
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by recklessrat:


Not a thrilling thought that I am already in their conversion process!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by recklessrat:


Not a thrilling thought that I am already in their conversion process!!

---

Why would a complete stranger knock on your door and start a theological conversation unless they were trying to convert you?

They might be very nice people, and such conversations can be very interesting, but people don't walk the streets risking abuse and rejection just for a hobby.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by recklessrat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by recklessrat:


Not a thrilling thought that I am already in their conversion process!!

---

Why would a complete stranger knock on your door and start a theological conversation unless they were trying to convert you?

They might be very nice people, and such conversations can be very interesting, but people don't walk the streets risking abuse and rejection just for a hobby.

---

I know it's quite naive, but I guess I thought general awareness-raising, as opposed to working on individual conversions straight away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


You could be doing a service to your neighbours. The time they spend trying to convert you is time they are not spending bothering other people in the area.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I understand that if you buy a clerical collar and wear it when you open the door they will be scared away.

eta: on the other hand wearing leather and carrying a whip may be just as effective a deterrent!

---

quote:

---

... For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I understand that if you buy a clerical collar and wear it when you open the door they will be scared away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cottontail:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I understand that if you buy a clerical collar and wear it when you open the door they will be scared away.

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I can confirm that that doesn't work!

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quote:

---

originally posted by Cottontail

I countered that more people had been alive in the 20th century than in all the previous centuries combined.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I understand that if you buy a clerical collar and wear it when you open the door they will be scared away.

eta: on the other hand wearing leather and carrying a whip may be just as effective a deterrent!

---

I understand that wearing nothing at all does the trick, but I've never tried it.

---

Why-ever not?

Seriously, though, is "scaring them away" such a good thing? I appreciate that they can be a dratted nuisance but, strange as it may seem, The Book seems to suggest that God loves them too. Hard as it may be, I reckon that we are called upon to love them as well.

As a footnote, around here I have found that the JW's tend to be quite aggressive, as compared to the Mormons (we get quite a lot of American missionaries as they have a house in the area) who tend to be quite laid back and relaxed. Saying that, after a series of visits by one missionary pair during which I did some serious damage to the archeological provenance of the Book of Mormon, we would appear to have been blacklisted by the Mormons as well as the JW's. As those visits were in 1997, I must have made a fairly lasting impression ...
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
I agree that the JW's tend to be more aggresive than, say, the Mormons. These days, I don't invite the JWs into the house if I'm on my own, but the last couple of times I spoke to them on the door, I found that they encroached on my personal space so that I was retreating into the house.
Actually, last time they called, Lord P was at home and he got involved in the conversation too. They seemed a bit taken aback by the fact that this obviously young man knew his stuff and could argue his case. I think we're blackballed again....
The local ones are often out on a Sunday morning. I suppose they feel that anyone who is out is possibly in church, so anyone in is fair game.
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darllenwr:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I understand that wearing nothing at all does the trick, but I've never tried it.

---

Why-ever not?

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Just ask any Shipmate who has met me IRL!

 

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darllenwr:

As a footnote, around here I have found that the JW's tend to be quite aggressive, as compared to the Mormons (we get quite a lot of American missionaries as they have a house in the area) who tend to be quite laid back and relaxed. Saying that, after a series of visits by one missionary pair during which I did some serious damage to the archeological provenance of the Book of Mormon, we would appear to have been blacklisted by the Mormons as well as the JW's. As those visits were in 1997, I must have made a fairly lasting impression ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by moonlitdoor:

quote:

---

originally posted by Cottontail

I countered that more people had been alive in the 20th century than in all the previous centuries combined.

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This is most unlikely to be true even though you used it in a good cause ! See for example http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16870579

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Haha - oh well! I shall rephrase that in future to "More people were alive in the 20th century than were alive in any century previously."
 

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Posted by Shire Dweller (# 16631) on :
 
As an aside of my own experience

In my mid twenties (only a few years ago) the JW's happened to send round two young and attractive women. I rather liked that and ignorantly announced myself as “Church of England”
They said something about living out the Bible – I wasn't listening...

A few weeks later, two more young and attractive JW women turned up. I liked that too but was watching football or something so didn't want to listen...

I stopped liking it when both my Vicar and an experienced Christian friend told me – they just made notes and thought sending you young and attractive women was a way in...

What has annoyed me more recently though is that the JW's were out doing their door knocking around here on Easter Sunday this year. That really annoyed me – it confirmed that they had no respect whatsoever for Christians. I chastised myself for feeling so uncharitable but did find it extremely difficult to think at all well of them because of this.

Naive as ever I suppose.
 

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Posted by Polly Plummer (# 13354) on :
 
It seems like time for someone to put in a good word for the JWs.

When we lived in Holland I knew someone who had been very lonely when she first moved there. The JWs called and she told them she wasn't interested, but had they come across any other British people on their rounds? The lady went back to HQ and called again later with the address of an English-speaking (in fact American) person whom one of her colleagues had come across - who eventually introduced the first woman to our club, where I met her. We all thought this was splendid work on their part.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
You LIKED their artwork, Janine?!

I always thought that was one of the worst aspects of the Watchtower tracts and booklets - the illustrations were just so cheesy ...

Anyhow - I used to have JW neighbours when I lived in a block of flats (apartments to our US friends) - council flats - public housing ...

They were lovely.

On the whole, and I don't mean to insult Pentecostals and fundamentalist evangelicals, but in terms of the demographic, I've always found JWs very similar to the people one might meet at the local AoG or Elim church or the local independent non-charismatic evangelical church.

I used to spend ages debating with them and I'm not sure how much good it did them or me. It probably sharpened up my hermeneutics and debating skills to some extent - but then, I tend not to get into lengthy theological discussions in real life these days - that tends to happen here.

I'd agree with what's been said so far. Their apparent depth of Bible knowledge isn't as impressive as it first appears. Try hitting them with Hebrews 1:5-13.

I'm not sure that sword-fencing with proof-texts really gets any of us very far, but it certainly wouldn't do any harm, and may do them some good, to point out some of the texts on which orthodox Christian doctrines are based. They will have an answer, of course, but there's no harm in trying. It'll make them think.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shire Dweller:
What has annoyed me more recently though is that the JW's were out doing their door knocking around here on Easter Sunday this year. That really annoyed me – it confirmed that they had no respect whatsoever for Christians. I chastised myself for feeling so uncharitable but did find it extremely difficult to think at all well of them because of this.

---

Disrespectful perhaps, but also rather foolish - surely, by pestering religious people on a holy day they were unlikely to get a good reception.
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
This past Easter afternoon I had people from
Faithful Word Baptist Church at my door -- (discussed on this thread).
Pastor Steven L. Anderson is best-know for this sermon.

I am soooo glad I ignored the doorbell.
 

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Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
My brother did the naked door thingy.
It worked for them.... No more visits, ever.
Mind you, it was midwinter at the time, and he says he got kinda cold.
 

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Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :
 
Hello all,

Thanks very much for all your replies - it is really helpful to be able to read about all your experiences.
I am going to do some serious reading up on the Biblical points they are likely to bring up and ways in which to respond. I will look at the bits mentioned on this thread, and I have also found some websites that are supposed to help you do this. I think I will definitely need someone with me in case they phrase questions in a sneaky way and I get confused and miss something. Best to keep it as formal as possible – they can have an appointment time, and I will book in my friend to come too.

I feel somewhat reassured by the observations of many on this thread that it is actually likely to be pretty mundane, pre-scripted stuff. Not having experienced it before, you do tend to imagine the worst. I agree with Darllenwr that we’re called to love them, and I think me being able to argue confidently with them is a big part of showing that love! So I want to make sure I do a really good job.

I was very surprised to learn from this thread that even clerical collars and vicarages don’t deter, though. And to read Shiredweller’s experience of seeing them around Easter Sunday!! It is this thread of having little respect for others’ religious traditions, and the examples of sneakiness and lack of transparency mentioned earlier in the thread that makes me think, if I’m going to engage with them, I need to be really on the ball.

There’s nothing else for it, I’m joining the naked door-answering club.
 

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Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
FWIW, I was once waylaid by someone I knew (JW) on the street, when I was returning from Christmas services. (They don't believe in Christmas, either).

He was in the business of selling and carving gravestones, among other things. When the time came, I bought my mother's gravestone from the other firm in town.

He was quite put out. But I expect he just chalked it up to another persecution.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
The movement is not unused to persecution - the Nazis persecuted quite routinely from 1933 to 1945 and many ended up in work camps or the death camps.
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
I have also known JWs be hugely supportive to people in very difficult situations; there was a woman I was at university with who they had supported through kicking her cococaine addiction and getting back into education, and they were very supportive to a woman with mjor mentalillness and learning disability of my acquaintance visitng her regularly through her time in hospital.

I don't agree with their take on Christianity, but I am not sure why they arouse such hostility. I am also not sure why so many of youdon't consider them Christian - I realise they are not trinitarian but then neither are many folk who worship in ostensibly trinitarian churches.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
The hostility is due IMHO to the deceptive practices of the door ringers. I don't see nearly as much hostility to the Mormons, for instance, who are identifiable six blocks away and who come right out and tell you who they are and what they're up to.

As for non-Trinitarians--well, Trinitarian theology has always been one of the basic marks of Christianity, going right back to the baptismal formula. Of course there are plenty of nonTrinitarians in worship on Sunday--there are also plenty of agnostics, synergists, work-your-way-to-heaven-ers, and so forth. Churches can't and shouldn't try to police their attenders. The best you can do is to teach and pray. And there are no doubt plenty of areas where the Lord shakes his head at all of us.
 

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Posted by Chelley (# 11322) on :
 
In case it wasn't that clear from my last post, the one thing I always try and do is be as friendly and respectful as I can. Relating one human to another and loving for love's sake rather than for conversion's sake I suppose is at the heart of it. We might have some discussion about particular beliefs but I do try and just engage in 'normal' conversation too! Not much point in talking about Jesus theologies if you're going to engage in a way that is nothing like him!
 

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Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :
 
Having done door to door many years ago during the U.S. phase of my missions work, I experienced a lot of hostility, so I don't think JW's get more than others. People do not like being interrupted in their own home by people with an agenda, be it religion, sales or politics.

I used to make it a point to talk with JW's who came to my door until I figured out they have no intention of real discussion and one person is always keeping an eye on the other to ensure no venturing from the party line. Now I generally don't give the time of day to anyone doing any kind of door to door. I've gotten cranky in my old age. That and I'm saving them time as I have no intention of buying anything, converting to any other religion or engaging in political BS from a stranger at my door.

My only advice if you choose to engage with them is to know why you believe what you believe before you talk with them or as others have suggested have someone knowledgeable from your church with you.

I also agree with LC that God is probably shaking his head at all of us in our theology at one time or another.

[ 09. August 2012, 12:35: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As for non-Trinitarians--well, Trinitarian theology has always been one of the basic marks of Christianity, going right back to the baptismal formula.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I have also known JWs be hugely supportive to people in very difficult situations;
<snip>
I don't agree with their take on Christianity, but I am not sure why they arouse such hostility.

---

• a child with gender identity issues and probably homosexualty was having a very rough time at home and running away regularly;
• another with mental illness was not being taken to CAMHS
• a third student with learning difficulties linked to oxygen deficiency from heart problems (so speech and language too) was given weekly door knocking duties to get improve his speaking to strangers;
• another student with reading difficulties was only getting home practice with family bible reading sessions - only thing available at home

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

As for non-Trinitarians--well, Trinitarian theology has always been one of the basic marks of Christianity, going right back to the baptismal formula. Of course there are plenty of nonTrinitarians in worship on Sunday--there are also plenty of agnostics, synergists, work-your-way-to-heaven-ers, and so forth. Churches can't and shouldn't try to police their attenders. The best you can do is to teach and pray. And there are no doubt plenty of areas where the Lord shakes his head at all of us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Did I say I was okay with it? More to the point, did the Church (in any of its various manifestations) say it was okay with it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You need not be too awed by their supposed knowledge of Scripture--because it is, as you say, pre-scripted, it is memorized and about as deep as a frog pond in August. (Considers that) Well, in the Midwest, anyway... If you do engage with them, remember that they are expecting, even possibly hoping, to be persecuted "for the truth." Do nothing that will lend itself to that idea. The more kind, loving, reasonable AND firm you are, the more they will be forced to re-examine their own beliefs.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Gwladys:

Actually, last time they called, Lord P was at home and he got involved in the conversation too. They seemed a bit taken aback by the fact that this obviously young man knew his stuff and could argue his case. I think we're blackballed again....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chelley:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cottontail:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I understand that if you buy a clerical collar and wear it when you open the door they will be scared away.

---

I can confirm that that doesn't work!

---

Ditto!
I've had visits on a few occasions and wearing a collar at the time or standing next to the "Vicarage" sign doesn't seem to make any difference. Though engaging in friendly conversation and a bit of counter-discussion does. I have on a number of occasions (pre and post ordination) suggested that "how kind of you to offer me your literature - I'll take yours if you'd like to take my gospel of John/Luke etc!" So far the offer has been declined. The most interesting conversations have arisen when my visitors have ventured near to 'who Jesus is' territory, though these conversations tend to be cut short.
I do remember one conversation from a number of years ago (before I was ordained) but when I presumably had been labelled as a "so-called" Christian from prior doorstep conversations, so the opening gambit was along the lines of, "We believe in mission and sharing the faith, don't you?" To which I got in quick with "Well yes I do actually, and we have an Alpha course beginning at our church next week, it would be lovely if you'd like to come and explore the faith?" They left, and I suspect I was 'black-balled' after that as I didn't see them again.

---

One of our clergy came to a midweek meeting once gigginge to themselves. They had been running out to the meeting, wearing their collar, only to find two JW's at the door standing facing 'The Rectory' sign.

Their opening gambit was 'have you got a faith'
 

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Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
I ca't remember if it was JWs or Mormons , but they met their match in the now ex-Mr L. He was very dogmatic, used verses out of context as proof texts and was easily aroused to anger. After speaking at the door to two callers he was annoyed. Neither had been really listening to what the other side was saying. He started screaming and shouting at them and calling out at the top of his voice that they would all go to hell if they didn't listen to him. The pair escaped down the street while he still yelled at them for a couple of minutes.

I do think the two groups must recognise the marks on the gates from the others. We never had any visitors from either group after that.

Please note: I do not endorse this method of discouragement, but it did work. He has been entirely unrepentant of his behaviour. I did speak to him about it but received almost similar.

[ 23. August 2012, 23:03: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
 

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Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :
 
Just to say thanks for all your replies-they have all been read and digested.
My schedule has not coincided with the JWs again since I posted. I will update this thread upon our next inevitable encounter...
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Some armaments:

History of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Distinctive Beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Strategies of the Jehovah's Witnesses

The God of the Jehovah's Witnesses

What is the significance of the number 144,000 to Jehovah's Witnesses?

Why won't Jehovah's Witnesses accept blood transfusions, even when their lives are in jeopardy?

Stumpers for the Jehovah's Witnesses

More Stumpers for the Jehovah's Witnesses

What's a good way to steer a conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses who come to my door?

Have at them!
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I pity the poor fool JWs who knock at your door, IngoB!
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Except that they might well be utterly mystified - the only answer in that list I've looked at so far is the one on blood transfusions and it's completely beside the point. The prohibitions of the Old Covenant are not relevant to JWs unless they've been confirmed by the New Covenant, so they need have no worries (except health ones) about eating fat. The rejection of blood transfusions is based on Acts 15:20, where the new non-Jewish Christians are asked to abstain from "food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." JWs interpret "blood" as meaning taking in blood in any way, either as food (so they don't eat things like black pudding) or through a transfusion. So many well-intentioned mainstream Christians simply don't do their homework on what JWs base their beliefs on.

I do wonder anyway about the value of arguing with JWs; they're using (and usually very familiar with) a different translation of the Bible, one angled to fit their own theology, and starting from a different set of premises, as I realised when I was arguing about the Trinity - my friend kept asking me where God was during the earthly lifetime of Jesus, which made no sense at all to me until I realised too late that his concept of God was very much more bounded than mine.

It seems to me that if we want to plant seeds of doubt and get JWs to start asking themselves questions the best thing we can do is be good Christians. JWs believe that they're the only ones with the Truth and the rest of us are all Babylon, misguided and deceived by Satan. So I try to be friendly and open, but ready to talk about the delight and adventure of reading the Bible for myself, and about the various good things going on at my church. If they start thinking that perhaps the Watchtower Society isn't right about absolutely everything, other things may follow.
 

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Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :
 
IngoB, thank you for the links, which I will read this weekend. Much appreciated.

Margaret, I think you have a good point about showing by example and I will certainly be doing my best to treat them in a gentle manner whilst also emphasising all the wonderful things that happen at my church!
 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
I suppose it doesn't hurt to dig up all the things and times Watchtower publications got wrong, to share with them when they want to hand you a copy of the current stuff. Who knows? If it's Watchtower they might read it, even if it is old.
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
You may care to be aware of their appalling sexism - women are definitely second-class citizens. At their so-called Bible Study evenings, a woman may not read anything if a man is present; he must read even (and I have first-hand experience) if he is barely literate and struggling.

At another meeting, some guy was pontificating about how he and a JW woman were on an outing when they saw a woman meet a man in a car park which, he concluded was an adulterous assignation on the grounds that she was driving an expensive car which must obviously belong to her husband since *a woman can't afford a car like that*

I also saw one so-called *Elder* bully and shame his 11 year old son who had mild learning difficulties for some piece of innocent japery at another of these ghastly meetings.

And as for their *song book*, all I can say is you need cloth ears.

My advice is simply stay away from them.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
My minister is an enthusiastic Biblical Greek reader. The JW's came to his house one day, started on one of their usual lines and said "that's what the bible originally said".

He pulled out the original Greek and contradicted them. They left.

Opa!
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Margaret,

They are (duh) people too, and often scared people, who really believe that if they don't knock on sufficiently many doors they will be in deep crap with God/the local Kingdom Hall/both. That's what's driving a lot of them, a sense of guilt and fear--not the love and joy that you HOPE will be driving a Christian witness (yes, I know, but never mind). But under those circs, being merciful to JWs is maybe good.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
Experience talking with them showed that, contrary to expectation, the average JW is not that well aquainted with the Bible, even in his own translation. Yes, they know a lot of proof texts and will happily throw these at you, but ask them to explain the context of the proof text, or the broad sweep of any particular book of the Bible, and you will frequently floor them completely.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, their idea of 'Bible Study' should more accurately be termed 'Watchtower study', since it generally means studying some piece of Watchtower Bible & Tract Society literature, reading selected verses from the Bible to back up what the Watchtower is saying - not my idea of Bible study.

Experience has further shown that you don't have to be able to read NT Greek to seriously throw them with the Greek - an Interlinear Greek / English New Testament is all you need. The hazard in all of this is that it is too easy to descend to point scoring, which helps nobody.

I think my underlying hope in all my contacts with JW's has always been that something I have said will set them thinking for themselves, rather than just parroting and accepting the official JW line on everything.

As an aside, and referring to Lamb Chopped's remarks above, it certainly used to be the case (don't know if it still is) that JW's had to submit regular returns to their Kingdom Hall showing how much door-to-door work they had done, how many copies of the Watchtower or Awake they had 'placed' (theoretically, sold), how many 'Bible Studies' they had conducted or at least instigated and so on. These returns were converted into lifetime records for each individual and essentially constituted their ticket to survive Armageddon (or not, as the case might be). One of the reasons that JW's lived in fear of offending the hierarchy was that their record would be destroyed if they did so. If you believe that your written record is your ticket to salvation ...

Whether this particular threat is still held over them, I do not know. It is hard to imagine a hierarchy such as theirs willingly relinquishing such a powerful hold on its members, but stranger things have been known.

You will probably gather that I am not a particular fan of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of Pensylvania Heights.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I pity the poor fool JWs who knock at your door, IngoB!

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Hmm. I've found so far that the simple statement "I'm a practicing Catholic," with the italics standing for voiced emphasis, stops all further missionary attempts dead in the tracks. I've not tried it on JWs yet, but that sure shut up the Mormons... (I did get a copy of the Book of Mormon out of them before they left. Nice.)

I think next time I will offer to teach them how to pray a rosary. This should be fun.
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
That is still so, Darlienwyr. Box-ticking to Paradise Earth

Ingo: yeah, "you come to Mass with me, I'll come to the Kingdom Hall" gets 'em scuttling off.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
:

They are (duh) people too, and often scared people, who really believe that if they don't knock on sufficiently many doors they will be in deep crap with God/the local Kingdom Hall/both.

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That's what drove me to go through weekly JW lessons for over a year. It was in scorching hot Georgia and the sweet little couple seemed to be in their 80's. How could I turn them away? Besides, my dachshund was in love with them and would throw her head back and howl if they didn't get to come in and sit a while.

As mentioned upthread, the Bible readings were incredibly boring, focused on silly things like just how hurt God must feel not to be called by his proper name, Jehovah. "How would your husband like to be called, Man?"

I never had the heart to really argue with them after they had dedicated their long lives to the faith, but the young men who come to my door now, trying to tell me that the world has never been as bad off, get an earful about the number of smallpox deaths, etc.

There used to be a good website called "Witnessing to the Witnesses," with good rebuttals to their main issues. What troubles me a little about totally blowing up the doctines of young Mormons or JWs is that they rarely seem to leave their faith to turn Lutheran or Anglican but usually throw religion out completely and become atheists. At least I've seen a lot of that.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Which is why, if you CAN build a relationship with them, you ought to do so as firmly and carefully as you can before blowing them totally out of the water spiritually. I mean, you're talking about totally rocking their world, all the way to the foundations. You don't want to grab what little they've got (horrid as it is) without replacing it with something Much Better.

Oh, and in my experience very very few people are ever argued INTO the kingdom of God, though they may be argued out of other cults. But that still leaves them in a world of hurt. Got to have that Christian love, compassion, fellowship, whatever if you have any hope of them ending up in a better place.

[ 27. August 2012, 00:06: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 

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Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
My late father who had the gift of the gab and never lost an argument would invite religious callers in and have lengthy conversations with them. Eventually they would be begging to leave -it was hilarious.
My husband has a different way of ridding us of the callers. One day he was working in the garden when he was waylaid by the visitors. When they had well and truly outstayed their welcome he announced that he was going to turn on the sprinkler to water the garden and go inside for his lunch. They could stay in the garden if they wished. He then turned the tap on full. Have you ever seen soaking wet unwanted visitors run away? It was so funny. They never returned.

 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
A JW Greek New Testament and your Greek New Testament will be exactly the same, however the translations are not. It's a fascinating place to start, esp in 1 John, but it WILL get you on their DoNotCallHere list...and fairly swiftly as well.

I find that the best approach is a personal chat.
Go for doctrine and it's point scoring all the way, no more satisfying than winning a game of darts really. Go for 'deeply held and personal faith' though....and they will bizarely need to leave quite soon.

Which is always sad, as like many other here i would far rather the JWs chat with me, than mither my neighbours ~ many of whom used to give the JWs money merely to go away

[ 27. August 2012, 20:01: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Facebook post from a lady from my area:

quote:

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... To the two jehovahs whitness ladies who just knocked at my door while my husband and i were in rhe shower and my kids were in the living room playing wii. When a child opens the door for you and their home alarm goes off i would advise you to quickly shut the door untill a dressed adult answers the door if not and you decide to stand there with MY door wide open be prepared to see anything just saying.....they wont be back at my house any time soon! Lol.

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I do see that a screaming naked man rushing at you across the front room of a home, jumping over his little children to get to you, might prove a deterrent to further conversation.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Or the beginning of a beautiful relationship! (Just shoo the children elsewhere, of course.)

So... what happens when JWs and Mormons meet? Do they try to convert each other and how does that go?

[ 04. September 2012, 02:49: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Janine:
Facebook post from a lady from my area:

quote:

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... To the two jehovahs whitness ladies who just knocked at my door while my husband and i were in rhe shower and my kids were in the living room playing wii. When a child opens the door for you and their home alarm goes off i would advise you to quickly shut the door untill a dressed adult answers the door if not and you decide to stand there with MY door wide open be prepared to see anything just saying.....they wont be back at my house any time soon! Lol.

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I do see that a screaming naked man rushing at you across the front room of a home, jumping over his little children to get to you, might prove a deterrent to further conversation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
I have just thought of a variant - say to the JW that s/he is welcome to come in but we are naturists so s/he will need to take their clothes off in the hall first.

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Only the shapely ones, though, lest they take you up on it.
 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Picture it:

Young, innocent Mormon elders; a couple of shapely (if Mousethief insists) and relatively young and impressionable JWs;

The flaming hotbed of the mansion's living room all four had targeted, in which they accidentally become imprisoned, when an experimental "anti-proseletizer" lockdown security system goes horribly, horribly awry;

They languish, unrescued, for weeks, then months, the homeowners being on the opposite side of the globe on a round-the-world mission trip of their own, among the untouched-by-Christ sheiks of Saudi Arabia...

Time passes. World economies rise and fall. Lengthy gaps in the availability of international transportation mean the homeowners themselves never return.

When their inheriting great-grandhildren finally arrive with the security keys, they discover a new culture in that mansion, born of loneliness and desperation and the hot, hot, hotbed crucible of religion that formed between the two fresh-faced, acne-laden, squeaky-voiced "elders" and the only slightly older but no less innocently zealouos, curvaceous JWs.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Thank you, Janine, for overloading my imagination so early in the morning!


 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
We have nice JW ones who come to my home and we read my Bible, as well as theirs - and now she has been saying that it's not God ruling the world as in Genesis chapter 3, he. (the "serpent" in my Bible) got the two people to disobey God by what they ate, and also in the NT, he tries to get Jesus to do what he suggests.

So what can I explain in reality - we'll meet next week again and I've been told to get the information about that? I want to help them to believe properly in God.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Sorry, I don't understand. What's not God?
 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Is s/he saying that Satan rather than God is ruling this world -- "the Prince of this world"?

Perhaps Satan does have a grip on the throat of the world... but a wider view shows God's grip firmly on the throat of Satan. That's what I get from Scripture, anyway.
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
Yes, they are saying that Satan is the one in charge of the world, not God. Still doing lots and running the world, after getting people in the past (in Genesis) to do the wrong things, even if told by God what not to do.
 

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