Thread: Children of Alcoholics Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=023740

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
This thread is for any Shipmates who had an alcoholic parent. (Or, as in my case, TWO alcoholic parents). How has it affected you? Did you make use of groups like Al-Anon or ACoA, and were they helpful? Let's get a conversation going.

I realize that some of us went through some heavy s@@@ with our parents. So, if you'd rather not post your thoughts on this board, feel free to send me a private message.
 

---

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
*raises hand* Hi, my name is Nicole and I'm a grateful member of alanon...

Both my parents drank excessively, though I suspect it was my mother who had the real problem and my father just drank to keep her company.

I joined alanon almost 17 years ago because of my alcoholic then-husband, and have been regular ever since. After a few years I realized I had to use my program to deal with the effects of my parents drinking on me just as much as the effects of my husband's.

If you want to PM me, feel free.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
One year this month, Nicole.

I grew up with an alcoholic who was also systematically, relentlessly abusive, and with a co-parent who just did not want to see what was going on. When you look at pictures of me when I am five, I am a sunny, happy kid-- pictures two years later (after my mother's remarriage) show a hollow eyed, haunted kid.

I reached a crisis about a year ago when I realized that the effects of growing up this way was making my life unlivable-- specifically, all through my childhood and continuing into adulthood, I have been the target of savage bullying. My inability to cope with this-- or to acknowledge what is going on and get away from it-- has been crippling, nearly career-destroying. I was abused at home, would go out into the world, be bullied there, and come home to be abused some more. My mother was"treated like a queen" by my stepfather so very often just flatly disbelieved the things we told her about what was happening--he was also very stealthy-- and she had health issues that became a reason we had to hide was was going on from her, so that we would not upset her. I have had this perception all my life, that whenever I am in trouble or in pain, I need to get out of the way for those with worse problems (and the people with worse problems have a carte blanche to treat me however they want), and not be a bother, that my worth is dependent on being a source of emotional support for others, but asking for support of my own risks the end of relationships.

Most recent insight into my codependency-- I will get warm, supportive messages about myself form many people and will struggle to believe it, and spend hours agonizing over one moment of unkindness. I only just realized recently that this is me choosing a modus operandi of talking to myself-- there is no reason I need to dwell on ugliness other than it reinforces something I apparently believe. I mourn over someone-or-other's bad opinion of me, but really who is the voice carping at me in my head? It's me.

I am glad I finally stepped through that door a year ago-- I'm still "effected by the disease of alcoholism" but at least I can see hope in what is going on around me.

[ 28. August 2012, 05:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by BessHiggs (# 15176) on :
 


Both parents here too.

I never chose to attend Alanon or ACoA in a large part because of my mother. (OK, OK, I get the irony in that statement). ISTM my mother traded one addiction for another when she quit drinking and started going to meetings. 20 years later, her life still revolves around alcohol, only now it's not drinking that consumes her. Most of her social interaction is with fellow Friends of Bill W, to the point where she often appears to prefer their company to that of her family. That and my mother's complete lack of understanding of the concept of ANONYMOUS makes me extremely skitish about such groups.

For me, I'm fixin to (finally) start some one-on-one therapy to try to deal with all this crud I can't seem to stop toting around with me. We'll see if that helps any, I guess it can't really hurt much.

Not really prepared to share much more in such a public place but PM me if you want.
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
I went to Al-Anon for a while when my brother started drinking heavily. (He's an alcoholic, as were both my parents). Although I got some good ideas from them, the groups I went to were very cliquish, and I just didn't feel like I fit in there.

I did learn a bit about myself through Al-Anon, though, and it wasn't very nice. One evening a fellow member and I were walking outside of the hospital where the meeting was held when we spotted a young man lying on the sidewalk, a walker next to him. My companion bent down, smelled booze on his breath and said just one word: "Alcoholic." We all just walked away, leaving the man there. This showed how much contempt we felt for those who abused alcohol.

Originally I thought this was just an odd coincidence, but after my brother finally quit drinking (he's been sober now over 20 years) Mom started hitting the sauce really hard. She started drinking after work, but when she got laid off from work she took to hitting the bottle during the day as well. Sometimes she'd call me up at work, ripped out of her face, ranting and raving about some stupid talk show she had just seen on television. (Now and then she'd even call the TV stations up and complain). It got to the point where I avoided visiting her any time after about noon.

Mom died in 1994, and guess what? Then it was Dad who took to the drink! He's still at it.

At first I thought this was all coincidence, then I read up on Family Therapy and group dynamics, which stress the role that each member plays in the family's "system." For some sick reason, there was a spot for a drunk in my screwed-up family. First my brother played it, then Mom, then Dad.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Squirrel, boy that hits home. Both with my mom and with past relationships, there have been moments when I have had this glaring moment of a horrible feeling of "I feel like there is some script I am supposed to follow." I really feel like there is something my mom wants me to take over in my father's role-- not necessarily the drunkenness, but something. Not sure-- She seems to get of on conflict, and seems to (consciously or unconscionably) arrange things so conflict comes.

Right now, my main focus is to locate and appreciate the kind people in my life. I just really need to saturate myself in people like that, just to know what it feels like so I don't' settle for less.

Oh and I got a concerned PM from a kind friend, so feel like I should share a bit of my response here:

quote:

---

I think part of the reason I posted what I posted (on the Children of Alcoholic thread) is that I just came to the conclusion at some point that I am sick of being ashamed of any part of me, and that includes my past. I have also gotten a lot of"fluffy bunny" crap from people on the Ship in the past, and was sick of people judging me without knowing who I am.

---

 

---

Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
So much of what Kelly has written rings true here.

Alcoholic, neglectful, etc etc childhood here and yes its really screwed me up. I really thought that once I left uni I'd be free but I'm still realising how deep childhood stuff affects how you are, how you see things, how you relate to others etc. I've definitely got a warped sense of "normal". (Yes I know there's "no such thing as normal" but yes there are things which are social norms or just plain unacceptable which you miss out on if you grow up thinking abuse is "normal".)

I'm realising now how many of my friendships are either with others with "interesting" lives or are people dependant on me, rather than people I can go to for support. And how much shit I put up with from "friends".

I guess its something to work at for life. I've often thought I'd find it helpful to discuss with others similarly affected. I was at Alateen briefly as a kid which was good, but stopped. I was part of Al-Anon for a while in late teens but its a different emphasis as most are women married to alcoholics whereas having a parent is different.

I'm still kind of caring for her now.
 

---

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
My dad was an alcoholic. I think. He prefers to say he had a problem with alcohol, my mum says he was an alky. Me, I don't remember any of it. I think he tried to hide his drinking, so I have no idea when he stopped - I guess it was when I was in my teens. But we never spoke about it as a family (that curse of silence) so it's all shrouded in mystery.

So I feel like a fraud calling myself a child of an alcoholic. I don't know whether his behaviour was caused by drink or just his character - when you're a kid a lot of the things your parents do seem normal. It's all shrouded in mist for me.

So I've never been to Friends of Al-Anon or whatnot - I'd feel like a fraud when there are people who've had really devastating experiences.

He had stopped by the time I was in my late teens, I think, but started drinking socially again when he left my mother (the reason he was drinking?) and met his current wife. I almost fainted the first time I saw him with a drink in his hand. It still scares me - he seems to be in control of it, but still drinks a fair few pints, and drinks and drives, which I hate. He's a big man, so he reckons he can handle it.

Sorry, rambling now. It's still a hard topic to think about, and every now and then I catch myself NEEDING a drink and it scares the shit out of me.
 

---

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
My late father was what I call a career alcoholic: he was forced into retirement at age forty in 1962. Although he eventually stopped drinking and smoking when he was in his late fifties, the damage was done and he got congestive heart failure: he did not quite make it to his eighty-third birthday. His sister, my aunt, will be ninety next year in spite of having had heart surgery. My grandmother, who died of old age and never smoked or drank anything more than the odd glass of sherry, lived to be ninety-four.

Although both Dad and Granddad were mechanical engineers, Dad never had the success his father did in spite of being named after him. Dad had a graduate degree from Cal Tech but was always in his father's shadow even though his dad only had a Bachelor of Science from Cal Berkeley.

Granddad was in Who's Who in California and third in command at the gas company. He also was chairman of an LA charity which is now United Way. He also got a major street in east LA County named after him because my great-grandad, an unsuccessful dentist with a medical degree, bought a large tract of land there over a hundred years ago and he developed it. It seemed that everybody who ran a major business in southern California knew him! Unfortunately, my dad could not work for the gas company due to anti-nepotism rules. He never found a good career job, even though he designed computer hardware for some big companies. He was brilliant though: he, or the companies he worked with, held several patents.

I did go to ACA for awhile and had some good friends there at the time: one of them is our piano tuner. I don't think I could be a tee-totaller with two Irish-owned pubs in walking distance from our house. I have sporadically been a heavy drinker but, being the intelligent person I am, I was never convicted of DUI (drink-driving in the UK?) because I almost always take my wife with me when I go to the pub or I walk home. That said, my wife does worry: apparently I had two episodes of somnambulism earlier this month. Both times it was after drinking too much beer and washing it down with nearly a whole bottle of wine. I have since changed to alcohol-free beer at home on occasion when I drink something other than a single glass of wine or two. I now buy my beers at the pubs where I limit myself to two...

I am also blessed that my wife does understand me. She watches me like a hawk. I am unemployed this month and I have now chosen to go to daily mass at my local parish instead of drinking in front of the computer screen much of the day. I have no advice for anybody except that if you have a similar background some combination of ACA or other peer counseling and regular church attendance may work for you. I hope my liver stays with me after I retire in a few years so I am cutting way back on drinking. I expect to live into my nineties!

KM
 

---

Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
I don't really belong in this thread, but I can identify with some of the experiences described here. My mother has paranoid schizophrenia, so I'm an adult child of a mentally ill parent. She's been ill since ai was 15 and, in many ways, I feel as if I'm stuck a that age, even though I'm 46 now.

I've had counselling at various times and I've read a number of books for adult children of alcoholics, which have been very helpful. But there aren't any ALANON- type meetings that I could go to and the amount of literature available for 'ACMIs' is very limited in comparison.

Happy to talk more, but I quite understand if it isn't relevant to this thread.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Personally, I don't mind if anyone who has suffered childhood abuse chimes in with "that resonates with me." Because of course some of the discussion will resonate with abuse survivors.

Earwig-- the way they phase it in our district is Alanon is available "to anyone affected by the disease of alcoholism," and that your "qualified" (perhaps because of dynamics like the one Squirrel described above, the people in the groups I have attended pretty much exclusively use the term "qualifier" to avoid demonizing the alcoholic) could be a friend, a family member, a person who has recovered or(as in my case) someone long dead.

To unpack the "qualifier" thing-- I see the potential for cliquishness and even cultyness in an Alanon group (or any twelve steppy sort of thing.) I don't think it is necessarily built into the program, though, it's a matter of what kind of dynamic the group generates. I am lucky enough that the group I attend has certain things built into their policies and procedures that help us keep the focus on ourselves and our recovery. For instance:

We have a reminder at he beginning of each meeting that our job there is not to discuss other people's struggles and especially not the alcoholic, but to jeep the focus on our progress an insights as much as possible. Not that we never talk about our "qualifiers," but the gears shift quickly back to our own roadblocks. A therapy room really is the best place to express boiling rage at the alcoholic, if you can't express it to them for some reason.

"No Crosstalk"-- based on some past incident which I have never asked about because it is none of my business, the group has a paragraph on "crosstalk" put into the opening script. Basically it says you are not allowed to interrupt or directly comment on another's share--not even to praise it-- and if you have any specific advice to give another, do it after the meeting.

Sounds boneheaded, but I find it seems to cut down on the "performance/ competition" factor-- both int he sense of people crafting their shares in a way that will garner praise, and in the sense of preventing critical analysis that will shut someone up in the middle of a share. (in some Non Alanon groups I have been in, I have seen this sort of thing used to swiftly establish a pecking order. Frighteningly swiftly.)

RE: The anonymous bit that Besshiggs mentioned-- I hope by mentioning a bit of protocol I haven't gotten too close to that line. I am very careful about how I speak about the group, even to family members. Unfortunately I have had a negative example of that-- my mom went to group for a while, and her routine was to pick me up from school grab a burger with me, and totally dish on all her group mates. I thought then-- as now-- how can you feel support from people you are allowing yourself to express contempt about?
 

---

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
By coincidence the topic at my last meeting (yesterday) was "the alcoholic family". So much familiar here, so much we all have in common.

Kelly, "no crosstalk" is pretty much a standard rule in alanon, not just your group. It is very nice to be able to share and know no one will be interupting or commenting on it.

My mother was mentally ill as well as her drinking problem, so I sympathize with starbug as well.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh, so that solo paragraph is part of everyone's script? (all I know is people murmured about it being really necessary.)
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
Starbug, your experiences are closer to ours than you may realize, so feel free to post here. Many alcoholics are also mentally ill, and sometimes their drinking started as a way of "self-medicating." This was clearly the case with my mother. It wasn't until years after her death that I put everything together and realized how disturbed she was. She refused to go for treatment for any of her conditions, although she did find a "Dr. Feelgood" who kept her supplied with sleeping pills and Valium. Instead she made life miserable for the whole family, especially me, her "favorite" relative.

What is tragic is how disturbed parents influence our relationships with others. You'll be surprised how many children of alcoholics marry drunks themselves - most experts agree that this comes from an unconscious desire to try and reconcile with the parent through their spouse. Or we become chronic "rescuers," who constantly look for miserable people we falsely believe we can save. The latter clearly applies to me. From former girlfriends to members of the bands I've played in, I often have found myself drawn to sad sacks whom I think I can "rescue."
 

---

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
This thread is for any Shipmates who had an alcoholic parent. (Or, as in my case, TWO alcoholic parents). How has it affected you? Did you make use of groups like Al-Anon or ACoA, and were they helpful? Let's get a conversation going.

I realize that some of us went through some heavy s@@@ with our parents. So, if you'd rather not post your thoughts on this board, feel free to send me a private message.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mockingale:
This thread has triggered some flashbacky crap in me. Can I ask a question: if anyone has experience with both alanon and ACoA, what if any difference is there?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma Louise:
How do people deal with it as an adult?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
My automatic reaction to any question was "How's he going to hurt me with my answer?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:

My mother's been dead over 17 years, but I have still not managed to forgive her for what she did to my brother and myself. I know I should "get over it," and "move on," plus there's the Christian stuff about forgiving everybody. Bit every time I think of Mom I think only of her drinking, and the bitch she became when she was drunk.

---

Yeah, the forgiveness thing.

I think one of the things, even before Alanon, that I have been working with is that forgiveness without truth equals nothing. So, while I realized that i do need to learn to forgive, I am not going to lie about my life anymore.

In group, I hear comments like "We have to realized that our parents did the best they could." That is exactly the problem-- I can't say that with conviction. My parents created this world where the adults were these demigods that deserved respect and loyalty and affection no matter what they did, and children were supposed to simply do what they were told and otherwise keep out of the way. On a recent trip, my sis and I were laughing about a road trip we'd taken withour grandparents that invovled a crazy endless singalong; I could see my mom getting irritated, and I knew she was biting back the comment,"Why don't you talk about road trips WE took?"

Well, the answer is, road trips with you and dad meant you and him in the front talking exclusively to each other, while sis and I sat cowering in the back, usually afraid to speak above a whisper. The fact that this is what happened is not my fault. My talking about it does not equal unforgiveness.

[ 31. August 2012, 05:54: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
Oh, yes, the old explanation "They did the best they could." B.S. My mother didn't. She could have gotten help for her problems, but chose not to.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
But the first step to forgiveness is to acknowledge that there were better ways for them to behave. Pretending the hurt did not happen, or it was the best way things could have been is not honest and forgiveness requires honesty.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by BessHiggs (# 15176) on :
 
Grrrr.

My mother says this to me. "I wasn't that bad was I? You turned out OK so I guess I did something right." Well as a matter of fact mommy, you were worse than you imagine. Remember the time I didn't come home for 4 days and when I finally did, you hadn't actually noticed that I'd been gone? FFS I was 15 at the time.

Yikes, rage and lots of unresolved mommy-issues before I've even finished my first cup of coffee.
 

---

Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
My dad doesn't seem to acknowledge that anything unusual went on. Or his complete neglect when I "lived" with him.(Quite aside from all the other abusive stuff he was successful financially (I hadn't realised this at the time so used to make excuses in my head all the time for him) but I used to work paper-rounds to buy bus money, relied on friends donating me clothes etc.

I find it really strange to look back to that time but if I were to keep bringing it up now it would sour relationships I do have with him now (and he is bizarrely good with his grandchildren). It is odd having a completely different view of reality to how he must have rewritten history in his head.
 

---

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 

quote:

---

Emma Louise posted : It is odd having a completely different view of reality to how he must have rewritten history in his head.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mockingale:


"What'd you do tonight?"

(Oh boy, well, she doesn't like Bob, so I shouldn't say I was hanging out with Bob, and she is so tired from work this week that if I tell her I was out watching a football game she'll think I'm lazy and worthless and I'll never hear the end of it.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Earwig-- the way they phase it in our district is Alanon is available "to anyone affected by the disease of alcoholism," and that your "qualified" (perhaps because of dynamics like the one Squirrel described above, the people in the groups I have attended pretty much exclusively use the term "qualifier" to avoid demonizing the alcoholic) could be a friend, a family member, a person who has recovered or(as in my case) someone long dead.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
Oh, yes, the old explanation "They did the best they could." B.S. My mother didn't. She could have gotten help for her problems, but chose not to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starbug:
I learned early on that it was safer to lie and just tell my mother what she wanted to hear. I also learned to hide things, as even before she became ill, she was very intrusive.

---

quote:

---

Am I the only one here who's actually relieved that my alcoholic parent is deceased?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
Am I the only one here who's actually relieved that my alcoholic parent is deceased?

---

Nope. It meant I know longer had to force myself to visit him or grit my teeth and find father's day and birthday cards who's complimentary lines lied about who I felt.
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
Oh yes, the greeting card lies. I actually lied many times to my mother about how I felt.

Once, before she started drinking heavily, I told her that she was the greatest mother in the world. She cherished that statement, and used to remind me of it when she was drinking. I'd always assure her I still meant it. But I had the notion that she suspected I felt otherwise, but didn't want to say anything.
 

---

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
Picking out greeting cards for my mother, oh what a pain. I loved my mother, don't get me wrong, but I just couldn't stomach giving her one of the "sweetness and light" sentimental cards. I usually defaulted to humerous cards.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Another one who had trouble with cards for Father's Day etc. I usually defaulted to beautiful blank cards so I could write stuff that didn't make me .
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Picking out greeting cards for my mother, oh what a pain. I loved my mother, don't get me wrong, but I just couldn't stomach giving her one of the "sweetness and light" sentimental cards. I usually defaulted to humerous cards.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
Am I the only one here who's actually relieved that my alcoholic parent is deceased?

---

Um, no.

My dad had a heart attack, and lingered for a week, during which my mom, sis, and I rubbed his feet, held his hand, stroked his hair, and generally tried to make him comfortable. I showed more affection to my father than I ever had in my life, and certainly more that either one of them gave to me.( we had this bed time ritual where we would trot downstairs and kiss each of our parents on the cheek goodnight, while they sat and stared straight ahead. God, I gotta million of them.)

Anyway, on about day 3 of this vigil, my dad suddenly went from a blank, wild-eyed state to sitting straight up and looking around the room , sharp eyed. He looked straight at me.

"he looks alert!" Mom said.

"He's looking stright at Kelly!"

"he probably think it' s me, " Said my mom. (
)

But he kept looking right at me, and for once in my life I looked him straight in the eye. and I thought, you will never be able to hurt me again.

Adn I didn't feel guilty at all, in fact I got the sense he understood. And I didn't get the feeling he was sorry, but that he knew he couldn't hurt me.

Understand, the last few years in my father's life featured an unusual warm period-- he would actually have gruffly friendly conversations with me, was clumsily affectionate-- he would actually hug me, not just accept a kiss. The last conversation I had with him, he squeezed my hand and demanded I come around for dinner sometime. Squeezed it again and repeated himself-- no, I mean it, come around.

And I still needed that little moment of looking him in the eye and reassuring myself he was weaker than me. And it fucking felt good. And maybe that's why I have less trouble forgiving him than my mother.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Picking out greeting cards for my mother, oh what a pain. I loved my mother, don't get me wrong, but I just couldn't stomach giving her one of the "sweetness and light" sentimental cards. I usually defaulted to humerous cards.

---

quote:

---

But I don't do that either, mostly because Beefeater is expensive.

---

Buy a miniature ...

Mrs. S, pained at the waste of good gin
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
There you go.

I was writing a piece that involved some of my torrid backstory, and a day or so afterward I drove out to my dad's grave, took out a pencil I had in my pocket, and stabbed the turf several times. Wasn't hugely cathartic, but it didn't Hurt anyone, either.

[ 04. September 2012, 18:13: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
OK, since I have unloaded a whole lot of heavy stuff on y'all I wnt to share a nice one-- I have a strong feelig what happened happened because of the writing I ahve done on this thread, and maybe someone somewhere is praying for me.

I was poking around on my Facebook page, scrolling up and down on past post, looked way,, and looked back to see a really cool post. I smiled and though, "Wow, what a cool person. That's good people. I should friend them. Wonder who it is?"

And I scrolled up a bit, to realize it was an old post of mine that I had forgotten about.

Here's the thing-- I don't think I really understood how deeply I don't believe that until that happened. I have this sneery little voice inside me that catalogues every error, gloats over every failure, and basically talks really nasty to me. The healthy part of me basically has to sneak up and tackle that voice form behind to get me to see what is- well, true. If I reread my FB page as if I were checking up on a possible new contact, I see someone smart, but accessible, passionate, funny, kind, Kid-centered, understanding, and generous. I have flaws-- many flaws-- but that doesn't make any of the above less true.


Maybe it was writing about my father's death. he is dead. Not only can he never hurt me again, but he is in the presence of Love Himself, and can no longer do anything but rejoice in the blessings God has in store for me. I think there was still a little part of me that didn't quite believe that.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
My father is 86 and in poor health. We make a big deal out of Fathers' Day and I always get a gushy, sentimental card, which is the type he always has wanted. No problem with that; in spite of his drinking I feel real love for my father.

Mothers' Day is different. I live a short distance from where my mother is buried, and each year I tell myself that I'll go there on MD or her birthday and plant some flowers. But I never do. Instead, I sometimes think of bringing a bottle of Beefeater gin (her favorite), and pouring it on her grave. But I don't do that either, mostly because Beefeater is expensive.

---

Actually buy a big bottle and a minature, then the first time you take the minature and pour it out. Then refil is from the big bottle ready for the next time. Its the most economical way of doing it.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
That's a great idea - a miniature bottle of Beefeater. Considering how much of the stuff Mom could put away, she'd be better off if I doled it out to her in little bits.
 

---

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
Better still, Squirrel, a miniature of Beefeater and a big bottle of some hideous generic stuff from a supermarket

Mrs. S, cheapskate of this parish
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
Yes, Mrs. S! Mom used to flip when some sneaky bartender tried substituting the cheap stuff for Beefeater.
 

---

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
What do folks think about the notion that alcoholism is a "disease" - one of the things you hear all of the time at Al-Anon. When an alcoholic said something cruel to a family member, the standard response I'd hear was "It's the disease talking." Huh?

I know that the psychiatric profession views alcoholism as a disease, but then again they often change their mind about such matters; witness their views on homosexuality. Some folks comment that the disease model is used in order to get insurance plans to pay for treatment.

What do you think?
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
It helps some people. I found it easier to endure the cruelty inflicted on me by remembering that his internal censor was seriously out of whack, and he would never have said or done such things if he had been in his right mind. Not that the evil wouldn't have been there latent as it is in all sinners; but far less of it would have made its way out to be expressed in daylight reality, where we were hurt by it. It was particularly easy to see the disease aspects after he had a formal diagnosis of alcohol induced encephalopathy (basically, brain damage). No doubt it had been present for years before it became clearly unmistakable.

This does not of course let him off the moral responsibility, as he placed himself in that state by his own oft chosen actions. But since i had to forgive him eventually for my own sake (mental health), the disease model made it easier. God can deal with him after the moral judicial model if he wants, but for me that focus leads to unbearable bitterness.
 

---

Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
What do folks think about the notion that alcoholism is a "disease" - one of the things you hear all of the time at Al-Anon. When an alcoholic said something cruel to a family member, the standard response I'd hear was "It's the disease talking." Huh?

What do you think?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think increased abuse of alcohol can definitely cause actual brain damage, and increase the tenancy to "self-medicate." So, yeah, I guess I do believe it is a disease.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
OK, I got a question-- have you ever got the feeling an alcoholic used "blackouts" as an excuse to dodge responsibility for stupid shit they did?

Years ago, another "qualifier" gave me this feeling. Basically I would tell them mean, nasty stuff they had said/ done while they were drunk and they would get this far-away look and stammer"I-I-I- can't remember..." in this Marilyn Monroe voice that just set of my "Bogus!" alarms. Then as we discussed the matter further, they would suddenly remember everything in technicolor detail EXCEPT the nasty shit. And they would effectively craft a whole new memory in which all of the bad stuff was either nonexistent or exaggerated, and they were the victim/ hero of the story.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl:

You've just described my father in the later years of his drinking. To be honest, though, I truly believe he was in a blackout during his worst periods as you could see a flash in his eyes of "did I really do that?" and then just as suddenly, the eyes would harden and then his version would come out and he truly believed his version.

---

quote:

---

He'd pick a family member to accuse of making up this horrible story and on one occasion he browbeat a sister in law into apologizing. It was the reason I cut contact with him until shortly before he died.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(sigh) Thank you for that. I brought that feeling up to my shrink (sorry Squirrel, LCSW) at the time it was going on and she just shook her head and told me alcoholics often did have blackouts, you know. YEAH, I know, so explain to me why this feels off!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

Where I need to figure out forgiveness on this one is around the havoc such stories created with some of my friendships-- as long as the qualifier is out of my life I think I can honestly say "God Go with X" but it is hard to look a few people in the eye, because they seemed to eagerly believe the bullshit.And I don't know quite where I stand.Into the God Box with that one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am scared by not only what I did in black-out but by the later stages how they slipped into one-another. Days and weeks slipped by without a sober moment. Anyway the reason I dare to speak here is only to say in AA we say of black outs; "Might not be responsible for my actions but I am accountable." In short not remembering what I did does not in anyway absolve me for it.

On the whole this thread is too much for me.

P.

---

Thank you for this post and the courage it took to post. I also admire you for accepting the accountability. My father was in and out of AA and that part was never entertained by him. Until the day he died he was never accountable for anything he did and never apologized to anyone.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Yeah, Pyx, I do a lot of fucking around and teasing you, but I really do have a huge amount of respect for you, and when you posted what you did it was something I took to heart-- exactly because of who wrote it.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
You know, I was astonished at how easy it was to forgive an alcoholic once he owned up to his shit--probably because we all have our own shit as well. Pyx_e, please do believe this. It wasn't the alcoholism that made it so impossible to forgive my Dad, or even the crap he did when he either was or was not blacked out. It was the occasions when, confronted with what he had done, in an undeniable obvious-as-the-moon situation, and he knew it, he flat out denied it despite knowing it. When he acknowledged it, it was like "thank God, that's done, we're good again."

Other people's mileage may vary, but the second repentance showed up I was done. No more bitterness. We were actually on the road back to a damn good relationship when he died. I'm sorry there wasn't more time.

[ 09. September 2012, 00:23: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
And for what it's worth, there are total non-drinkers in my life right now who are doing shit and denying it, and who have without the help of alcohol actually managed to contort their brains into really believing the lie they've manufactured--and I'm having exactly the same hell of a time coping with that as I did with alcoholism-fueled denial. How the hell does THAT work? (sorry folks, tangent I know)
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Other people's mileage may vary, but the second repentance showed up I was done. No more bitterness. We were actually on the road back to a damn good relationship when he died. I'm sorry there wasn't more time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think maybe some people can't spit out the words "I'm sorry" no matter what they do.

---

Didn't have to. He lived it.

 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And for what it's worth, there are total non-drinkers in my life right now who are doing shit and denying it, and who have without the help of alcohol actually managed to contort their brains into really believing the lie they've manufactured--and I'm having exactly the same hell of a time coping with that as I did with alcoholism-fueled denial. How the hell does THAT work? (sorry folks, tangent I know)

---

quote:

---

It either "wasn't Christian" or I wasn't a dutiful daughter to a good man as the alcohol had taken a severe toll on his body. Those I looked in the eye and said you have no idea what went on behind closed doors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:

---

It either "wasn't Christian" or I wasn't a dutiful daughter to a good man as the alcohol had taken a severe toll on his body. Those I looked in the eye and said you have no idea what went on behind closed doors.

---

I cut off all contact with my mother when I when was eighteen because I couldn't cope with her anymore. In my defence my entire life before that had been conditioned by her alcoholism (and her appalling taste in men, but thats another story). I hit some kind of wall when my stepfather died in suspicious circumstances and the police made it clear that they thought she was involved in some way. I felt like I was hovering on the edge of some kind of massive breakdown. When she died five years later in an alcohol-related accident I somehow shut off the guilt and buried it away to 'think about later'. I still haven't thought about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You know, I was astonished at how easy it was to forgive an alcoholic once he owned up to his shit--probably because we all have our own shit as well. Pyx_e, please do believe this. It wasn't the alcoholism that made it so impossible to forgive my Dad, or even the crap he did when he either was or was not blacked out. It was the occasions when, confronted with what he had done, in an undeniable obvious-as-the-moon situation, and he knew it, he flat out denied it despite knowing it. When he acknowledged it, it was like "thank God, that's done, we're good again."

---

I never got the behavior change or an acknowledgement of the abuse and while he was alive I struggled with forgiveness as I needed that acknowledgement of the damage done to all in the family. Once he died making that a "never gonna happen" forgiveness came readily. God did several miraculous smack him upside the head attempts to bring healing into his life so at the end when I'm pretty sure he knew his time was extremely limited I'm hoping his relationship with God was made right even if relationships with family weren't.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Yeah, it's awful when someone dies with all that crap unaddressed--I was going to say "unresolved" but realized I was talking about fairyland there.

My brother's in this boat, as he cut off all contact with my Dad much later than we older ones did, and so he was still in the "can't be around you at ALL" stage when the signs of repentance began showing. So ten years later he's trying to work things out as best he can.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
A fellow Alanon member told me once, when I was struggling over unresolved anger issues about a dead friend, that I could try specifically applying the Twelve Steps to the situation. Sounds cheesy, but I tried it, and by the time I got to Step Three things had gone from unbearably painful to more comfortably sad.

Twelve Steps

[ 10. September 2012, 20:54: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
I hope this isn't a tangent - if it is, just ignore me - but Mr. S made me watch* the Panorama programme on BBC last night with Joan Bakewell about older people (65+) drinking too much and how it can creep into alcoholism. I really really don't want to go there (my brother is an alcoholic, I mean a serious, signed-off-on-incapacity-benefit-alcoholic) and I find myself very anxious as to knowing where the line comes between drinking more than Government guidelines, and really seriously being alcohol-dependant.

I have various defensive strategies (never drink more than one small glass of wine when I'm driving, and then only if it's a short distance, 3 or 4 alcohol-free days a week, limit the amount I drink at any one time, etc etc) but I do still worry.
*he watched it too, it wasn't a dig at me

Thanks for letting me spill this out ...

Mrs. S, concerned

[ 11. September 2012, 08:05: Message edited by: The Intrepid Mrs S ]
 

---

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
@The Intrepid Mrs S. Your story and your concerns are/were my story and my concerns. Different family member, same story. I have met a lot of AA members who found that dealing with an alcoholic friend/relative/partner's drinking, and/or going to Al-Anon made them confront their own drinking.

This is how it was for me.

Some decide that AA is the best fit for them, some attend Al-Anon and AA. We are known as 'double winners'.

I've also heard a lot of Al-Anon members say that they have been/are capable of drinking hard, but it just never 'took' them the way it takes alcoholics.

AA is my main home, but I find Al-Anon group work and literature very helpful with dealing with the alcoholics in my life and childhood related issues.

If drinking worries you, the solution is simple - give it up. You cannot get drunk if you don't pick up the first drink. It is perfectly normal not to drink alcohol. If this thought worries you then it might be a good idea to read the AA Big Book and attend a few open meetings. See if you have any identification.

[ 11. September 2012, 11:02: Message edited by: Thyme ]
 

---

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
PS, remembered too late, I meant to add:

Regarding crossing the line: My father never meant to cross that line. It happened without him realising it.

I never meant to cross the line. Like you I thought I was in control. Until I realised I wasn't. I'm grateful to my father for showing me where I was heading before it got too bad.

We have a saying in AA and Al-Anon - 'the abnormal becomes normal'. It is very insidious.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Some of it is likely to be genetic, too. We have an American Indian background (among other things). That side of the family is virtually all alcoholic or having other addictions. My mother warned me of it, and I've warned my son, not to think that we can drink, smoke, etc. like "normal people." Because for whatever reason, once we get started, we don't stop. And so we rarely have wine, etc. in the house--mainly for anniversaries and such.
 

---

Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:


I have various defensive strategies (never drink more than one small glass of wine when I'm driving, and then only if it's a short distance, 3 or 4 alcohol-free days a week, limit the amount I drink at any one time, etc etc) but I do still worry.

Mrs. S, concerned

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:


I have various defensive strategies (never drink more than one small glass of wine when I'm driving, and then only if it's a short distance, 3 or 4 alcohol-free days a week, limit the amount I drink at any one time, etc etc) but I do still worry.

Mrs. S, concerned

---

In addition to the good advice already posted, it's this statement that adds a bit of concern to me. If there is a detailed defensive strategy in place, it does seem in the back of your mind that alcohol may already be a problem, though I'm not saying it is. You may not have a problem going 3 or 4 days without alcohol but would giving up alcohol or limiting it only to special occasions be a problem? Is the alcohol worth the worry you're experiencing? Just something else to think about.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Well, that's rather the point, isn't it - is the fact that I am concerned a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Does seem a bit of a no-win situation!

Mrs. S, counting on her fingers!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Well, that's rather the point, isn't it - is the fact that I am concerned a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Does seem a bit of a no-win situation!

Mrs. S, counting on her fingers!

---

Not really a no-win. What I meant (and probably should have said) is that many people who do have an alcohol problem most often do have detailed plans that allow them to 1) live a normal life to the outside world and 2) have a sense of security that they don't have an alcohol problem. My father was one and I know others who managed their intake to keep appearances and allowed them to believe they didn't have a problem. If alcohol is not causing family problems or other outside problems you might very well have not inherited the gene that snagged your brother. You shouldn't have to have constant worry in the back of your mind. You're self aware where many are not. Keep that self awareness and you should be in good shape. Give up the alcohol if or when the worry becomes too much. From what you've said you can also trust your husband to let you know.


[coding fixed]

---

Thank you Niteowl
 

---

© Ship of Fools 2016


UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0