Ship of Fools: Dealing with cruel comments

Thread: Dealing with cruel comments Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

There is a lay reader at my church who seems to enjoy belittling people with cruel remarks. I seem to be a particular target of her behaviour and although I generally ignore her, I am starting to think I should tell her to stop. Some of her remarks are embarrassing, others downright rude. The latest happened tonight at church and I felt very hurt and embarrassed as there was no substance to it according to others. I am tempted to email her and ask her why she felt the need to say what she did and to tell her that I was hurt. Should I do this or are such people better ignored? She is making going to church an unpleasant experience.

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

Polite version: "I don't know if you realize this, but that remark you made was awfully mean and rude. Did you make it because you thought I needed to hear instruction from you on the issue?"

Not polite version: "Asshole."

Some other version: "I might care more about what you think if you made some vague attempt at being polite and it was any of your business."

Yet another: "Wow. Did you wake up this morning with a mission from God to tell me this? Is there some other reason for doing so? What might that be?"

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
She is making going to church an unpleasant experience.

Don't just ignore it, it won't go away!

Would it help if you had a chat with the minister/pastor? Maybe he/she could help you work out the best way to let this person know that their comments are hurtful.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

You should face her down about this, bib.

I live and work in a diocese where one senior cleric has been doing this unchallenged (indeed with other senior individuals, including the retiring bishop, joining in). It has been thoroughly corrosive of morale and has completely destroyed the proper self-confidence of several good priests. I long for the arrival of UT new bishop because I know him personally and know that he loathes that kind of behaviour, having been on the receiving end of it from the same man whilst in seminary thirty years ago. He will simply not tolerate it.

Meanwhile, bib, [Votive]

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

It's possible she is completely unaware of how rude and hurtful her comments are. I knew someone who was bullied as a child and even as a young adult she just thought it was being funny to make comments that belittled others and was genuinely shocked that people were hurt.

One way or the other something needs to be said either by you or perhaps you could enlist the help of someone else to ask her if she realised how rude you found her comments. She may try to change, if not give her a wide berth.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

I don't think ignoring will make it go away and neither do I think you need to ask her why she is doing it - I think you just need to tell her to stop doing it! Surely that is the only thing that interests you.

Please try not to say sorry in any message you send and try to avoid the word "but" - and keep it brief, keep it factual, keep it focussed on her behaviour rather than on her and keep to the point.

Have other people expressed the same sort of feeling? Can you get together and do a joint message to her?

If the behaviour continues then, later, you can cc. it to the incumbent.

WW
Once upon a time an Assertiveness Trainer

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

It's not an easy trick, but if you can go from being responsive to observational it helps. What I mean is, when someone says something unkind/untrue about us, the first reaction is to experience hurt and feel defensive. But instead of that, focus on their behaviour, not on its effect: calmly observe them being hostile. This enables you to say things like: 'I see you are being offensive to me. Why is that?'

If their intention was to upset you, then they are denied that satisfaction. If, for some reason, it was unintentional, then it offers an opportunity to explain and apologise. It signals clearly that whatever their game is, you're not playing.

Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :

The problem with that sort of challenge is that the response is often 'oh dear, I'm sorry you were upset' putting the responsibility back on the recipient of the comments. Or, alternatively you might get the 'sense of humour failure / joke / it was a lighthearted comment' defence. I think Trisagion is right. It needs facing down and it helps if you have recorded the comments and the time and place where they were made, and enlist any others who have heard them and find them as unpleasant as you do.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

FWIW, the first time I was on the receiving end from our senior cleric - who also happens to be my line-manager - I simply looked at him and said,"How remarkably rude." and turned away. He hasn't done it since.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I guess I'm a bit scared of doing anything as I hate conflict, but I realize it can't go on. She is a very forceful character who seems to revel in her position and plays power games. There are many others at church who have been on the receiving end of her barbs but it seems to have been my turn for a long time.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

Courage, mon brave. People like that bank on the fact that the rest of us don't like conflict to give them the room for their nastiness.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
The problem with that sort of challenge is that the response is often 'oh dear, I'm sorry you were upset'

But you're not, that's the point. On the 'It was meant as a joke' - the response is 'It didn't come across as one'.

I realise the stony-faced detachment may need a little work to achieve, but it is quite effective.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I don't think ignoring will make it go away and neither do I think you need to ask her why she is doing it - I think you just need to tell her to stop doing it! Surely that is the only thing that interests you.

This.

Some bullies don't actually know they are doing it and will stop when it's pointed out to them. I hope this is one of that sort. Here is a useful website.

[Votive]

for you

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I've found that ignoring the remarks and behaving as if nothing untowards had taken place only gives someone licence to continue.

Some people do have a fairly rough sense of humour and lack of sensitivity. I'd advise saying, calmly if you can, that you found their remark unkind, and seeing what their reaction is. If they apologize, you're fine. If they tell you it was a joke, they probably just have a rough sense of humour. Any other reaction (as it might be, they just laugh, tell you to grow some skin, or say nothing) and you know where you stand. You've made the position clear. If they carry on doing it, you then have a better case for talking to someone else about it.

[ 02. September 2012, 13:00: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Thanks for the website on bullying. I hadn't realized how much this describes the perpetrator. I actually feel quite sorry for her as she isn't liked by many people at church, but the minister finds her helpful as she makes herself useful doing 'important' works.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

The following will doubtless destroy whatever chance you had of building a relationship with her, but it sounds like you're past that anyway.

The next time she says something clearly offensive (e.g. "I don't know why they ever picked you to be reader, you clearly don't have the voice for it") say "excuse me," immediately grab a bystander from the nearest group--preferably one with some backbone, if they have standing in the congregation, that's even better!) drag him/her over, and say quite seriously, "Would you please repeat what you said to me, I want to be completely sure I understood you." At this point you will either get the waffle or a flat out repetition. If it's the waffle ("It wasn't meant for other ears, I was just trying to give you a hint, etc.") you hang on bulldog style and say, "No, no, I really want to understand what you said. Please repeat it, it's very important to me to understand just what it is that you consider bad about my voice. John will listen and help me to understand." And so on, and so on, until you judge she's been beaten up enough and won't try it again.

If you get a flat out repetition, go all scientific on her. "John, I'm so glad you're hear to help me understand, I'd be grateful if you'd listen carefully. Now, Molly, precisely WHAT was it about my voice that you feel makes me unfit to be a reader? Is it the pitch, or the volume, or the intonation...? If you happen to HAVE pen and paper, by all means take notes. And while you're doing so, say, "John, can you confirm that this is a problem? What's your take on this?" and so forth. Your goal is to make as big of a non-emotional fuss of this as you would if she had just reported smelling a dangerous gas odor in the hallway. When you judge she's had enough, you look her straight in the eye, say "Thank you for your input. I will be weighing it very carefully, and will be interested to hear what you say in the future." It's unlikely there will BE a future!

(Be sure to take John out for a drink or something, he'll have earned it!)

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Thanks for the website on bullying. I hadn't realized how much this describes the perpetrator. I actually feel quite sorry for her as she isn't liked by many people at church, but the minister finds her helpful as she makes herself useful doing 'important' works.

Perhaps the minister is fully aware of what she does. This may not be relevant to your own situation but in my experience some clergy actively cultivate such behaviour in a 'useful' person. This person picks up the cleric's negative views and fires the bullets on their behalf allowing the cleric to keep a distance from their own aggression.

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

This may sound bruta, but be wary of someone who makes you feel sorry for their consistently rude and aggressive words or actions towards you. There could be some covert aggressive behaviour going on which is very well described in the book 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' and there is an excert here.

It may be that this person really doesn't know that their comments are hurtful and some of the excellent suggestions further up the thread should stop it the behaviour. It may be that they know exactly what they are doing and it won't be until you challenge it that you know where you are.

[ 02. September 2012, 14:20: Message edited by: Poppy ]

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

Brutal not bruta - missed the edit window.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Those of us who are readers have to be relicensed every 3 years and the PCC and AGM have to agree to this.

There is a think in Matthew's Gospel about approaching someone personally, then in a group, then taking them to the edlers etc.

In the same vein, approach her, maybe do so again with a group of 3 others, then go to the minister.vicar. ?

She may be nasty and/or in need of some sort of help.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

It might be difficult (I find it difficult) but it is vital to keep your cool when standing up to this kind of behaviour whether it is intentional or not.

If you are to haul in 'John' as Lamb Chopped suggests, it may help to brief him first. Choose someone who has not been insulted, ideally because Person X dare not do so. I'm sure you can think of a few with an innate sense of justice, and mercy too as a true wake-up call of this nature may well a shattering event for her.

btw: Note that your minister may actually be pleased to have someone around who can act as 'nasty cop'. Most ministers are too busy to keep all the plates spinning.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

From the site Poppy linked to - there are many tactics the bully will get up to when you 'out' them - but this is a very common one, so be on the lookout for it.

"Playing the Victim Role – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering."

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Those of us who are readers have to be relicensed every 3 years and the PCC and AGM have to agree to this.

For a Reader licensed to a parish re-licensing has to be endorsed by the incumbent and PCC, but not the AGM. Usually a churchwarden signs the re-licensing form on behalf of the PCC - it's not necessary for there to be a formal PCC decision. It is assumed that a churchwarden will be aware of any problems such as strong opposition from the congregation. Generally speaking if a cleric supports a Reader then the Reader will be re-licensed.

If the Reader in this case has been behaving in this way for a long time I suspect the incumbent is fully aware and may possibly be tacitly supporting the behaviour.

[ 02. September 2012, 14:46: Message edited by: justlooking ]

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

There was a woman in my old church like that who used to be a bitch to everyone. She tried it on me a couple of times but stopped when I told her, 'you do know you're a cow'. Nasty but effective.

Posted by Telepath (# 3534) on :

The most important factor in job outcomes isn't quality of work, but whether you upset your boss. I am in no way being cynical about this.

If this person is verbally abusing others and the person in charge excuses it on grounds of "productivity", that means the person in charge is not upset by it. The bullying is taking place with the full knowledge and approval of the bully's superiors, who are using the bully as their cat's paw.

It's unlikely you'll get the behaviour to stop, because this person doesn't have a problem, it's the church that has the problem. You may be able to get them to direct the bullying at another target if you just tell them to fuck directly off, in the moment. Possibly immediately followed by a remark to the bully's superior: "and as for you, nobody's impressed that you're using Poindexter here to do your bullying for you."

You can only do so much, though, you're not a therapist and you're not in charge either.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

If her rudeness isn't solely aimed at you, could you enlist the help of her other targets, on the principle of safety in numbers?

And really, how indispensable can she be to the vicar if she's upsetting and alienating other members of the congregation?

Good luck with getting it sorted out. [Votive]

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Thanks to all for your advice and encouragement. I have bitten the bullet and sent her an email in which I have told her how embarrassed and humiliated I felt as a result of her comments. I have also requested that she does not treat me in this way any more. Copy has been forwarded to a church elder. Now wait for the fireworks.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

Well done!

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Woo hoo!

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Good for you, and for including someone else!

FWIW: I once asked someone, "are you always this rude?", and they enthusiastically responded, "yes!"...which, at least, gave me an idea of where they were coming from. Fortunately, I didn't have to deal with them much.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Well done bib. I hope she doesn't simply ignore it, which can easily happen with emails 'I didn't see that one. Are you sure you sent it to me/the right address' and some such. You did right by cc'ing it to one of the elders.

As you may gather, I agree with Telepath on the minister's role in this.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Good news and good luck!

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I've received a reply in which she claims to feel badly wronged and done by. She says she can't see how what she said could be in any way construed as bullying and humiliating. She claims to be shocked to receive the email from me. I replied reiterating that I felt bullied and humiliated at what had been said (broken record stuff). I asked why she felt the need to make negative remarks but never any positive ones. I also said that we both worked hard for our church and I felt it was necessary to support each other on our Christian journeys. Don't know what else I can do or say as the ball is in her court now, but I feel relieved to have tackled the situation. Thanks everyone for the wise words and support.

Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :

Well done, Bib. I bet that's the last you'll hear of it especially as she knows that one of the elders has seen it too. Stay strong and never, never apologise in any way just stiick to what you said. (As you have done)

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

Bullies often when confronted will do everything possible to turn it around and make themselves seem like the victim. The key is to stay calm, and stick to your guns. Good luck!

Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :

What Spiffy said.

Remember, if anyone (anyone at all) behaves in a way that you find offensive you have a PERFECT RIGHT to make a complaint about their behaviour. Politely, which is how you have done it.

They do not have any right to complain because you have complained.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I am still much concerned by this.

Where someone is 'in denial' it is a useful 'tool' to keep a log of comments: July 3 - said X
July 8 said Y
etc.

According to 1 Corinthians 13, love keeps no score of wrongs.

However, when people don't believe they are causing any trouble, chapter and verse can make it more real to them.

In school, we had to do this when we wanted to suspend a pupil - parents an governors would not act on hearsay unless we fleshed it out.

The same is true for my local Neighborhood Watch which has deputed me to collect statistics about such exciting issues as wheelie bins and the neglect of the local council (!)

Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :

It is always possible that you are standing proxy for someone the cruel commenter can not confront; a long-gone vicar, a former boss who fired or disciplined them; a spouse they dislike but can not bring themselves to leave.
At some point, you will need to decide whether this is a fight worth taking on; subjecting yourself to ongoing abuse can be a recipe for health disaster. Even if you are in the right.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Well done bib!

Watch out now for the possibility of even more playing to the victim role, probably to an audience with many tears - and if that doesn't work a quick switch of tactics.

On-going [Votive]

for you.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
It is always possible that you are standing proxy for someone the cruel commenter can not confront; a long-gone vicar, a former boss who fired or disciplined them; a spouse they dislike but can not bring themselves to leave.
At some point, you will need to decide whether this is a fight worth taking on; subjecting yourself to ongoing abuse can be a recipe for health disaster. Even if you are in the right.

What Boogie said (having warned of earlier) and the above. You aren't out of the woods yet though and I feel someone in the church leadership team, if not the minister, must get involved for this to be concluded satisfactorily.

Nevertheless, you took courage, and got the apparent bully to respond.

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I've received a reply in which she claims to feel badly wronged and done by. She says she can't see how what she said could be in any way construed as bullying and humiliating.

Such a typical "bully" response!

Good on you for taking her on. I hope you get the appropriate backup from the church leaders. [Votive]

Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :

It seems to me that whatever the bully's response, the main thing here, bib, is that you found the wherewithal to try a different response than the one you had been giving. Please forgive me for using American business-speak... HOORAY for self-differentiated leadership. HOORAY for bib.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bib:
[qb] I've received a reply in which she claims to feel badly wronged and done by. She says she can't see how what she said could be in any way construed as bullying and humiliating.

And the best answer to that? In my experience, SILENCE.

No need to keep that conversation going. She either knows (and is lying), or she ought to know (and you have done your bit already to inform her). I would have no further conversation with her on the subject without either the pastor or elder standing there as a witness. Otherwise you only give her more room to attack you. And possibly more fuel to her fire, if she's the kind of person who thrives on drama and conflict (lots of them are).

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I intend to avoid any further contact and altercations with her if at all possible. I just hope she doesn't confront me. I guess I feel a bit nervous about next Sunday .

[ 04. September 2012, 02:05: Message edited by: bib ]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I'm someone who wishes I could think clearly and say things in the moment when they provoke my feelings. Your email has the same effect as doing that, but allows thoughtfulness. A very good way to have done it. Well done.

The next Sunday nervousness brings it back to in person, in the moment, and would make, I think, nearly anyone nervous. Having had some encounters in the past sort of like your's, the best advice I received was to make eye contact and say "Good Morning", full stop. If you plan in advance to say nearly nothing, and use the suggested silence, the rest will follow. You can say, I think, 'good morning' whatever this person says, and whether you speak first or second. You simply don't quite notice whatever else might be said. The expectation should be to either be ignored (low likelihood I think) or to have the 'good morning' returned. And then you're off to the church service or mass, or to get some after church refreshment.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Good advice. The "good morning" deliberately spoken en passant on your way to another destination says a. I see you and am taking notice of anything further you may or may not be up to, b. I'm not afraid of you (even if I am), c. I have no intention of having any further interaction with you at this point, d. Whether we ever have any future interaction beyond "good morning" depends entirely upon your good behavior or lack thereof. If possible you want a perfectly civil but mildly edgy tone to your voice, of the sort Professor McGonagall would use with Draco Malfoy. An "I'm keeping my eye on you" tone.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
FWIW, the first time I was on the receiving end from our senior cleric - who also happens to be my line-manager - I simply looked at him and said,"How remarkably rude." and turned away. He hasn't done it since.

bib, I think Trisagion's example is a good one. It's completely acceptable for us, in a civil but straightforward way, to respond with a simple statement that shows our 'surprise' that another person should be so unnecessarily unpleasant. Not 'do you know how that sounds' or 'do you know how that makes me feel' - but simply 'how rude/judgemental/unnecessary/not true etc'. Not angry - just matter-of-fact. The emphasis is then on what that person is saying, and whether or not they actually want to defend it.

People of that ilk, I imagine, don't much care if someone reacts badly to their nasty remarks; but if they find that in being nasty they're bringing on their own behaviour a negative judgement, which you're quite prepared to point out, it strikes a little closer to home.

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

It's hard for me to imagine what sort of actual "power" a lay reader has, that she could wield it like such a bludgeon.

Some people are the stars of their own mental soap operas.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

If she does wish to pursue confrontation, I'd suggest saying calmly, "I have no time now, but I'd be willing to meet with you and our pastor to further discuss things at a time that is convenient to us all." She'll either put up, shut up, or bluster and burble incoherently. Then you walk away.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
It's hard for me to imagine what sort of actual "power" a lay reader has, that she could wield it like such a bludgeon.

Depends on the type of church. Even in our liberal-ish church i am appalled at the number of people who tell me that they -respect' my authority because of my role and that what I say carries more weight than what some others say.

I think this is very dangerous and i can see how an inadequate person could use this to his/her advantage.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
It's hard for me to imagine what sort of actual "power" a lay reader has, that she could wield it like such a bludgeon.

Some people are the stars of their own mental soap operas.

I'm pretty sure we all are!

But Readers do, in fact, carry a lot of clout a lot of times.

I can easily think of at least one situation within my own parish experience where the negativity of a particular reader was a constant demoralizing force among the clergy and accredited lay-workers, and wardens. And that was over three regime changes.

More positively I've known readers who are particularly respected because they are 'of the people' but have also proved that 'ordinary' people like themselves can do a lot of the clergy stuff; and become important sources of feedback, providing here today/gone tomorrow clergy with some perspective and helpful local knowledge and history. Currently I'm blessed with a Reader whose opinion I value a great deal and whose advice I'd readily seek.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Please see my question about that statement here.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Why don't you deal with that issue HERE, ON THIS THREAD?

Readers who get 'up themselves' are the chief reason that I held out from becoming one.

Abuse of leadership positions in the Church is a serious issue that deserves more debate that the slagging off and lack of serious debate that goes on in Hell.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

I gave you an answer to your concern in Hell, leo. After all, you wouldn't want a tangent all about you in All Saints, now, would you?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why don't you deal with that issue HERE, ON THIS THREAD?

Readers who get 'up themselves' are the chief reason that I held out from becoming one.

Abuse of leadership positions in the Church is a serious issue that deserves more debate that the slagging off and lack of serious debate that goes on in Hell.

Because I am attempting to observe the ship's rules and guidelines regarding posts in All Saints. And this is a support thread for bib, not a debate thread. And my question regards your posting style. If you read it, you will see it is politely and respectfully phrased.

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

I hope to hear further reports. I want the best for bib, and so have indulged in fantasies of the come-uppance and improvement of the bully and the increase of self-confidence of bib.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
It's hard for me to imagine what sort of actual "power" a lay reader has, that she could wield it like such a bludgeon.
Depends on the type of church. Even in our liberal-ish church i am appalled at the number of people who tell me that they -respect' my authority...

Goodness. In my congregation -- we're so low on the candle, we're the doily under it -- I keep track of the bills, handle the books, whatever you want to call it. Unless there's a surprise major purchase of hundreds and thousands of dollars, I do things on my own, no one telling me what to do.

I must be quite powerful.

Hah. Not.

What I tell myself is, I simply hope to do a better job as treasurer than Judas did.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
I gave you an answer to your concern in Hell, leo. After all, you wouldn't want a tangent all about you in All Saints, now, would you?

Regardless of anyone else's view on the matter the AS Hosts would not want such a tangent!

Please remember that this is an AS thread offering support to bib and any others suffering similar treatment.

Thank you.

WW
All Saints Host

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

Strange what *sorts* of power a Reader can wield - in our church we (the band) aren't allowed to do the version of Amazing Grace in 4/4 time (I think it might be by Chris Tomlin?) because one of the Readers Doesn't Like It.

Mrs. S, suitably amazed

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

Sorry - missed the edit window. But apologies, Bib - I didn't mean to imply that that was at all comparable to your situation

Mrs. S [Ultra confused]

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Strange what *sorts* of power a Reader can wield - in our church we (the band) aren't allowed to do the version of Amazing Grace in 4/4 time (I think it might be by Chris Tomlin?) because one of the Readers Doesn't Like It.

Who is not allowing? Who has the ultimate decision about what the band may play? I'd be surprised if it's a Reader unless it's a church without a cleric where the Bishop has licensed someone as Reader-in-Charge. It looks to me like the way many parish clergy explain decisions. I of course have no objection but but I'm afraid .... (Reader, Churchwarden, Elsie) doesn't like it.

Getting back to the OP, if this is a case of someone who habitually targets other members of the church for cruel comments then a direct challenge is the best way of dealing with it. You then have to deal with the response. A self-defensive response is understandable. If the claim, as in this case, is that no harm was meant by a comment then I'd advise accepting that at face value but sticking to your guns as far as any counter-allegation is concerned. Don't apologise for complaining and for feeling upset.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

There is both charisma power and institutional power. The two are not unlinked but so often people only look at the institutional power. The power of the charisma is far more complex and every individual within the congregation wields some of it. The baby in its mothers arms has it, if you don't believe it, wait until it decides to scream in the sermon. The treasurer has it with how he manages the books, the old lady whose Grandmother was married here, has it with how she remembers the history of the congregation. Integrity in the use of power from the charisma we all have is far more difficult than most people imagine.

Jengie

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

justlooking wrote

quote:
Who is not allowing? Who has the ultimate decision about what the band may play?

Oh absolutely - in this case it is the vicar, or his wife, another reader, who would say 'Oh no, you can't use that version, J. doesn't like it'.

Hey, we exist as a band, to serve our church - but that doesn't stop it being annoying.

Mrs. S, through gritted teeth

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

bib - good on you, stand your ground with grace and politeness and if nothing else you'll have the satisfaction of winding up the bully!

Having caught myself about to reply on the wider tangent, I've taken the liberty of starting a thread on the broader issue of "folk over-stepping bounds" in Purgatory (which is probably the wrong thing to do, but hey).

Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
justlooking wrote

quote:

quote:
Who is not allowing? Who has the ultimate decision about what the band may play?
Oh absolutely - in this case it is the vicar, or his wife, another reader, who would say 'Oh no, you can't use that version, J. doesn't like it'.

Hey, we exist as a band, to serve our church - but that doesn't stop it being annoying.
Mrs. S, through gritted teeth

Yes, there to serve your church, not J. I guess it really depends on whether the choice of music is delegated to you, as a worship leader, or whether someone else, for example, the service leader, has that responsibility. It could be that J isn't bullying just you, but the rest of the congregation as well.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:

quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
justlooking wrote

quote:

quote:
Who is not allowing? Who has the ultimate decision about what the band may play?
Oh absolutely - in this case it is the vicar, or his wife, another reader, who would say 'Oh no, you can't use that version, J. doesn't like it'.

Hey, we exist as a band, to serve our church - but that doesn't stop it being annoying.
Mrs. S, through gritted teeth
Yes, there to serve your church, not J. I guess it really depends on whether the choice of music is delegated to you, as a worship leader, or whether someone else, for example, the service leader, has that responsibility. It could be that J isn't bullying just you, but the rest of the congregation as well.

Sometimes all people do is express a preference and combining that with the dynamic that exists in some places that No One Must Ever Be Upset creates the kind of situation that Mrs S describes. In other places J’s opinion would be noted and then completely ignored on the basis that services are a mixed bag – with something to please and annoy everyone. It’s hard to tell on the basis of the comments.

Well done Bib btw! I expect that most of the huffing and puffing you’ve had is defensive – either they’re fully aware of what they’re like and used to getting away with it OR it’s come as a bit of a shock and they’re processing it. The advice about being polite but firm with them going forward is really good. I’d also avoid any conversations with them without a third party present. Good luck!

Tubbs

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Well, church came around today and I fronted feeling a little nervous. I guess I wasn't surprised when the lay reader cut me and wouldn't even look at me. I had gone along with the intention of being civil, but didn't get the opportunity. Maybe sometime in the future as we do need to interact at times. I will continue to pray about it. However, I was surprised to be tackled by the elder to whom I had sent a copy of my email. He objected to being involved as he 'doesn't want to know about such things' and would have preferred I hadn't sent him a copy although he acknowledged how difficult the lay reader can be. Oh well, I tried, but it obviously backfired there. Thanks again shipmates. I guess the situation will take a lot more work and time.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Oh dear. The elder's reaction says a lot about how this situation may have developed in the first place, and why it isn't being dealt with. It'll do no good I suppose, but I'd be tempted to ask him why he WAS an elder in the first place--since the precise purpose of elders is to be "bothered" with the problems of the flock. That's what they're there for--or should be.

Still, good on you for trying.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

100% agreement with LC there on the purpose of the Elder - at least within my faith community.

Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :

Yes I completely agree about the elder's response. That's a complete abdication of responsibility (if we weren't in All Saints I'd call it something much ruder).

Bib I think you've made a good start. Being "cut" is unpleasant but it's one stage better than having cruel comments made to you. I would just keep my distance from this person, greet them politely when you meet them (you don't want to be justifiably accused of cutting them) but don't try to engage in any conversation with them - perfectly pleasant but distant, that's the way to go.

If they make any more nasty comments (about you or anyone else in your hearing) keep a written record. It's likely to be useful in the future.

Stick with it!

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

bib, I can't understand the elder's reaction either. Even if he didn't want to be involved surely resolving difficult in-house relations is a priority duty for church leaders?

It sounds like you've done as well as you can so far. Good for you, and take heart.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Well, church came around today and I fronted feeling a little nervous. I guess I wasn't surprised when the lay reader cut me and wouldn't even look at me. I had gone along with the intention of being civil, but didn't get the opportunity. Maybe sometime in the future as we do need to interact at times. I will continue to pray about it. However, I was surprised to be tackled by the elder to whom I had sent a copy of my email. He objected to being involved as he 'doesn't want to know about such things' and would have preferred I hadn't sent him a copy although he acknowledged how difficult the lay reader can be. Oh well, I tried, but it obviously backfired there. Thanks again shipmates. I guess the situation will take a lot more work and time.

It hasn't backfired at all. You should be encouraged. The 'awkward lay reader' is clearly embarrassed. As for the Elder, in stating that s/he didn't want to be involved in such things and acknowledging that this person can be difficult it looks like they are intimidated by her!

You need to take courage. Keep praying but act in the worldly too and that means recording any and every slight and sarcastic remark. Please don't feel you have to fight this battle alone. It could kill a whole church.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Sometimes it takes one person to bring up what everybody knows but has been too intimidated to deal with. If you hear of the same thing happening to someone else now that you've put her on notice, so to speak, you can recommend they take the same course of action (using possibly a different elder). Enough of these small things and the matter will eventually reach critical mass, and someone she HAS to listen to will finally sit on her. It'll be too embarrassing by that point not to.

ETA even the elder who is ducking his responsibilities will speak up in the elders meeting once some more spineful elder mentions it first. He just doesn't have the cojones to start to deal with it.

[ 09. September 2012, 18:18: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

I hope it all works out for you bib and you are getting very good advice here.

I want to thank you for posting your story here as it is very similar to a situation I found myself in many years ago.

I never resolved the issues, in fact I was pretty much drummed out of the church. It got very nasty. It was easier to make me the problem than deal with the real problem [Roll Eyes]

which I now know is par for the course with these things.

I have often wondered what I could have done better and thanks to you I realise the answer is probably nothing. In fact one of the Churchwardens presented it to me quite starkly. I could be one of the 'in crowd' but I had to put up with certain things. Well, I didn't want to be one of the in crowd on those terms.

Lots of people said they agreed with me privately but publicly behaved quite differently.

I hope it goes better for you, but if you find yourself getting sucked into an endless exhausting conflict with no public support from anyone it is probably better to fade away and find another church asap.

I worried about how people in other churches would feel about me with all this baggage, but it turned out the church and the individuals were famous for this sort of behaviour and it was considered perfectly normal to fall out with them and leave!!!

So thank you again for posting as it has helped me.

[ 09. September 2012, 19:38: Message edited by: Thyme ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Here's hoping it never gets to anything like that level of seriousness. IMHO one isolated asshole is usually not enough to lead to leaving a church--you can usually avoid one another, sorry though I am to leave unhealed wounds in the body of Christ. But leaving is a drastic measure to be taken only when the damage of staying is worse. And who knows, God may intend to use you to help heal this mess, first step simply by spaking up as you did.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you hear of the same thing happening to someone else now that you've put her on notice, so to speak, you can recommend they take the same course of action (using possibly a different elder). Enough of these small things and the matter will eventually reach critical mass,

I can see the attraction of this as a way of tackling an entrenched problem but I wouldn't recommend going down this route. It could easily be turned into an accusation of engineering a campaign against this person. Bib has dealt with her own issue about barbed comments made to or about her. She has stated clearly what she heard, how it affected her and what she now wants - that this person does not speak to or about her like this again. If others have similar problems they can deal with them in their own way.

I'm wondering where the minister is in this. I'd assumed this is an Anglican church, because of the role of lay reader, but since there are Elders too then I'm not sure. In a CofE set-up if the letter was to be copied to anyone it would probably be the incumbent.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I guess have misled by calling the church member an elder when he is actually a church warden and a deacon, but his position would be as an elder. I am a member of an Anglo-Catholic church. I've tried to deal with this issue without approaching the priest and I'm not sure at this stage what his reaction would be. I think I'm going to sit on it all for a while and just wait and see if anything else happens. I really don't want to see campaigns against the lay reader occur as that would be most unpleasant and against my Christian beliefs.

Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :

Bib, that seems very sensible to me. You want this person to stop making nasty comments about you. Hopefully she will now stop (once bitten, twice shy). If she doesn't, keep a record and if she persists you can think about what to do next. But hopefully she won't do it to you again.

Other people will have to look after themselves, you can't fight everyone's battles.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I'm wondering a little about pastoral care, though that may be overstated and the wrong wording. When I had a difficult time with a powerful church person, I consulted with a priest from another church, with the focus away from the difficult person, but on myself, and what I might need to do with myself. I don't think it needs to be s priest, and this very thread is a version of this, though if there was a person locally available to you that might help too.

I echo that you conducted yourself well. You didn't have a chance to do anything, but you were ready to act with integrity and dignity. The objection of the cc'd to person I think shows you are on the right track.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Campaigns, certainly not; and I'm a bit leery of the "keep a record" thing even for your own personal use unless she continues to go over-the-top with you. I'm guessing she won't.

My point was that if someone should come to you (much as you started this thread) wondering what to do about a v. similar situation, that you would be now capable of advising him/her. And if (God forbid) this happened multiple times, at least the church Powers-that-Be would have been properly informed.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Campaigns, certainly not; and I'm a bit leery of the "keep a record" thing even for your own personal use unless she continues to go over-the-top with you. I'm guessing she won't.

My point was that if someone should come to you (much as you started this thread) wondering what to do about a v. similar situation, that you would be now capable of advising him/her. And if (God forbid) this happened multiple times, at least the church Powers-that-Be would have been properly informed.

This. Doing a ring round of everyone this person’s offended and encouraging them to contact an elder would be “a campaign”. And not on.

Telling someone who’s been treated in a similar way that this behaviour isn’t acceptable and advising them to challenge the person / report it to the elders would be fine. Followed by a swift change of subject.

Sometimes people know that things aren’t right, but need to be encouraged to do something practical about them instead of just venting and sucking it up. It’s tempting not to raise any dust, but some people rely on that and use it to get away with all sorts of crap.

Tubbs

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

How sad,.....how sad on a couple of points really.

That you are being targeted is not great, not great at all. And the most sensible bit of support offered here is to Have Courage. I'd echo that one.

But how sad that this situation has been dripping along for so long. Well Done You for bringing matters out into the light. Were I that person, I would (in the cool light of day) want to know that i was coming across as bullying or horrible. After all, no one really wants to be known for being horrible, do we?

Have Courage

Posted by Barnabas Aus (# 15869) on :

Bib,

Is the warden you copied in on the email the rector's warden? If so, it is his responsibility to communicate the issue to your parish priest so that the parish team can continue to function. As rector's warden myself, I have had to deal with similar circumstances, although perhaps not so extreme, and have spoken to the rector confidentially so that the matter can be resolved. In any case, if the person is a people's warden, then it is incumbent upon him to represent you.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

If you think it worth the trouble. I'd suggest waiting to see if she shows any signs of changing her ways. It is certainly possible that what you've done already may have been all that was needed for God to work in her life and bring her (however slowly) to a betterway of life. I've got one such recently-rebuked and maybe-maybe-not-penitent under my observation now. I won't go after him again unless I see serious signs of returning nastiness. Merely being cold to me is not sufficient (and entirely expectable, after all).

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

LC I don't think bib can do anything other than wait and see if the cruel comments are repeated to her or about her. That's what the problem is. A situation like this can easily escalate, and easily backfire, if it becomes about the person generally. The lay reader is not a 'penitent' and if what bib has done is a rebuke then she has received a rebuke in return.

The churchwarden is also a deacon and has a particular responsibility for pastoral care. He and the lay reader both work alongside the priest. It's possible therefore that the priest knows and may have been given a copy of the emails.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I'm using ghe term very loosely, as you might have seen by the example I gave ( he's not having a positive reaction either). And of course escalation on this is to be avoided if possible. That was why I suggested waiting to see if the offense is repeated before running it further up the chain of command.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I've always liked Miss Manner's response to rudeness. Pause for one beat and then say clearly:

"I beg your pardon?"

This tends to get the attention of bystanders and force the perp to repeat her offensive remarks in front of witnesses. It usually results in a lot of flustered back peddling and a bit of hesitation before saying anything rude to you again. Meanwhile, you've put her on the spot and emarrassed her without a speck of blood on your hands.

Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :

Originally posted by Anselmina

quote:
It's completely acceptable for us, in a civil but straightforward way, to respond with a simple statement that shows our 'surprise' that another person should be so unnecessarily unpleasant. Not 'do you know how that sounds' or 'do you know how that makes me feel' - but simply 'how rude/judgemental/unnecessary/not true etc'. Not angry - just matter-of-fact. The emphasis is then on what that person is saying, and whether or not they actually want to defend it.

Well said. That worked for me. After years of putting up with a snide distortion of the truth I snapped and said, politely and in a tone of genuine interest, 'Why do you keep on saying that, when you know it isn't true?'. She looked at me as if the cat had spoken and walked out of the room. End of problem though, and the beginning of an end to the simmering hatred that had been gnawing away at me. And she was OK with me afterwards.
This has been an illuminating thread for me. The links too.
Well done so far bib - with you in spirit on the barricades.
[Votive]

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